Can somebody please post a definitive PvP vs PvE post so we can make some progress.

[sundogalmighty]

I love the game.I'm a 80/20 pve/pvp player across 9 alts, I like both game styles but spend most of my life in pve. I can really sympathise with the people who are finding this a problem. I got Qyzen through valour on one alt but had to work for him on another. I did my PvP through choice at first, I like a bit now and then, but I know that all I will do is die, continuously. When I try this as a mission I may need to do 7 more times I wonder where the pleasure is. I am not good enough at pvp for this to work. I will never be competitive with the pvp guys, it is their area of expertise and I am just meat to the grind. I am not a pvp player most of the time. I do try. I usually get about 20k/30k of damage for 10 or twelve deaths. It's not really why I play the game though so I will never get any better at pvp.

I hear you guys saying it shouldn't/doesn't matter cos you pvp'ers have to do pve stuff but the pve stuff you have to do isn't full of maximum rated experienced players who demolish everything instantly. You get to play the story, not get incinerated constantly by much more experienced and equipped players.

"You don't need to do it" etc. etc.

Yes, these people (me) do need to do it. It's what they are paying money for, they want the story, they want the immersion, they want the experience they are paying for. Immersion is a lot in a game like this, and immersion should be pleasurable, specially when you are paying for it. This is not C.O.D. Making pvp essential to continue in a storyline is making this unpleasurable for a lot of people. Doing it for one char is ok "just do it"' etc, etc, but as has been well pointed out if you have multiple alts this is not just "get it done". I would have to do more than a 100 rounds to complete my alts stories. I can absolutely agree with the guys who are being awkward in pvp matches. We don't want to be there. You are too good at the game and too powerfull. All you do is use us as cannon fodder. We want you to complain and get us removed from your game, it's just a shame that we have to be there to complete ours.

[Master-Nala]

"You don't need to do it" etc. etc.

Yes, these people (me) do need to do it. It's what they are paying money for, they want the story, they want the immersion, they want the experience they are paying for. Immersion is a lot in a game like this, and immersion should be pleasurable, specially when you are paying for it. This is not C.O.D.

 

See here's the problem. The underlined statement is false. Provably false. You simply do NOT have to do this quest. There's really no other thing I can do to prove that other than use your own words. As you said, people WANT this, they don't need it.

 

Making pvp essential to continue in a storyline is making this unpleasurable for a lot of people.

 

Again, the reason why this argument can't really progress beyond a shouting match is that one side states something like the above. This statement is currently wholly false. It MAY be true at some point in the future, but it isn't now.

 

So I'm left with saying to you the same thing I've said to others. If you don't like to PvP, then don't do the quest. I don't mind if you're there, I hope you try, but if you don't then so be it. PvP is entitled to desirable rewards just like PvE. Just because a player who doesn't like PvP wants it doesn't mean the devs should change the quest to accommodate their desires.

[HaoZhao]

This argument doesn't hold water anymore. PVP gear is so cheap now, that you can get the first set for like 4K commendations now. Even if you PVP casually, you can definitely do 4K by the time your character reaches 65. If you decided not to PVP at all until 65, well that's your own fault and you can't blame your poor performance just on gear.

 

It's naive to expect that you're going to be an awesome hotshot in warzones when you have no PVP experience with the character you're playing. Gear is important, but actual gameplay experience is more important. All of the gear in the world won't help you if you don't know how to play your spec properly. And no, operations and flash points do not prepare you for warzones at all.

[Kiesu]

How about do the quest you want rewards for and dont do the quests you dont like or dont care the reward for.

 

Have you ever considered some people are just happy they get something else than comms and decor rewards from doing regular pvp every once in a while too.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean it should be taken away from everyone else, that wouldnt be fair.

Your playstyle is not the only playstyle worth a special reward.

[sundogalmighty]

Jeez. I did more than enough pvp to get qyzan before the quest and I have done more than enough since. I don't want anything taken away from anyone, but to have to pvp 20 times for all of my chars. Surely you can see this is a reason to feel bad. I am not good at pvp and I will never be good at pvp. Some people are worried that future paid content and storyline will rely on current pvp criteria which makes them worried that the story we are paying for may be restricted by a style of play we have no interest or ability in. But you guys don't seem to be able to see beyond complete the mission or ignore it.

[sundogalmighty]

How about do the quest you want rewards for and dont do the quests you dont like or dont care the reward for.

 

Have you ever considered some people are just happy they get something else than comms and decor rewards from doing regular pvp every once in a while too.

Just because you dont like it, doesnt mean it should be taken away from everyone else, that wouldnt be fair.

Your playstyle is not the only playstyle worth a special reward.

 

I am happy for everyone who Is happy playing the game. I know it can never please everyone. I love it. The one aspect which worries me is that future expansions may rely on playing a gamestyle now which I have spent many hours trying to master but simply cannot compete with the guys who play that gamestyle. I like the fact that you are good at it, just don't restrict my story to making me compete against you. I don't want to, its not part of my game experience that I am paying for.

[Jamtas]

Jeez. I did more than enough pvp to get qyzan before the quest and I have done more than enough since. I don't want anything taken away from anyone, but to have to pvp 20 times for all of my chars. Surely you can see this is a reason to feel bad. I am not good at pvp and I will never be good at pvp. Some people are worried that future paid content and storyline will rely on current pvp criteria which makes them worried that the story we are paying for may be restricted by a style of play we have no interest or ability in. But you guys don't seem to be able to see beyond complete the mission or ignore it.

 

So do you have the same complaint for every SF toon requiring a FP (PVE) to be completed?

 

Or since you are 80% PVE this isn't an issue?

 

Look, I do both PVE and PVP on my mains and have unlocked all of the companions. But, on some toons that I don't have fullv alor on, I'll decide if I care enough to get Pierce/M4 on if I don't feel like pvping. Same with lokin and other alliance toons. I probably won't go and get all comps unlocked on all my alts. But that is my choice. There is the option for me to complete the needed tasks to get them. It's my decision to do so or not.

[sundogalmighty]

Story restriction. Future story restriction. Secondary character restriction. Restrictions made on the story by not completing certain criteria. This is why I don't want to simply 'drop it'.

[darthscotty]

I simply put hate pvp, it is a playstyle I have never liked and I have never done it. I now find myself forced into doing it and I am not happy about it. Some say just don't do it then if you do not like it. Well the problem with that is that the companion missions are gated, you have to have done the previous batch to get the new ones when they come out so I am forced into pvping when I do not want to be there. Hopefully they do not do this again, I hate it. However, if they do it again i will probaly do more pvp and get farmed to make others happy that their ques are popping faster, after that is all that matters right? Not quality of the match or opponent int he match.

[sundogalmighty]

So do you have the same complaint for every SF toon requiring a FP (PVE) to be completed?

 

Or since you are 80% PVE this isn't an issue?

 

Are those PvE missions populated by very experienced and massively overequipped enemies who practically cannot be killed by your lvl of char?

[sundogalmighty]

See here's the problem. The underlined statement is false. Provably false. You simply do NOT have to do this quest. There's really no other thing I can do to prove that other than use your own words. As you said, people WANT this, they don't need it.

 

 

 

Again, the reason why this argument can't really progress beyond a shouting match is that one side states something like the above. This statement is currently wholly false. It MAY be true at some point in the future, but it isn't now.

 

So I'm left with saying to you the same thing I've said to others. If you don't like to PvP, then don't do the quest. I don't mind if you're there, I hope you try, but if you don't then so be it. PvP is entitled to desirable rewards just like PvE. Just because a player who doesn't like PvP wants it doesn't mean the devs should change the quest to accommodate their desires.

 

You make me smile:) No-one is shouting, and it isn't an argument. Just a statement of facts really. The only point about any of this is that a lot of people think the story shouldn't be restricted by having to play a gamestyle which is not fun to them, and some people think it should be forced upon them. The people who want it restricted to gameplay are the ones who like that gameplay. The ones who don't, don't. No problem with the gameplay or ignoring missions, just don't hang the story on pvp. I'll play it (badly) because I want to, not because I have to.

[sundogalmighty]

One distinction. I Want to play this game, I do not need to play this game. I pay for this game. U want to have fun, I want to have fun, after all it is a game. There are no missions I NEED to do, I WANT to do them because they are part of the GAME I am PAYING for. Why force me to do over 100 pvp matches when I have no interest in pvp but have an interest in completing the stories attached to my chars that I have PAID for?

[HaoZhao]

One distinction. I Want to play this game, I do not need to play this game. I pay for this game. U want to have fun, I want to have fun, after all it is a game. There are no missions I NEED to do, I WANT to do them because they are part of the GAME I am PAYING for. Why force me to do over 100 pvp matches when I have no interest in pvp but have an interest in completing the stories attached to my chars that I have PAID for?

 

You can say this about anything in the game.

 

"This rare item I want is only dropped in an operation?! But I hate operations! I demand that BioWare give me the rewards without any of the work!"

 

There's a deeply corrupted American sense of entitlement at work here. Being a paying customer does not make you God.

[Jamtas]

So do you have the same complaint for every SF toon requiring a FP (PVE) to be completed?

 

Or since you are 80% PVE this isn't an issue?

 

Are those PvE missions populated by very experienced and massively overequipped enemies who practically cannot be killed by your lvl of char?

 

does pvp require you to kill very experienced enemies, or merely participate in them?

 

Regardless, lets pretend, yes those SF heroics require me to kill an incredibly difficult boss that I can't kill in my pvp gear - and judging from the forums, there are a ton of people having trouble doing this and being FORCED to group up for it. Remove this PVE wall from my story and companion right now!

[Kiesu]

Story restriction. Future story restriction. Secondary character restriction. Restrictions made on the story by not completing certain criteria. This is why I don't want to simply 'drop it'.

 

Alliance alert companions will have no chapter story restriction whatsoever.

Unless you consider that one after-quest-completion conversation option to recruit or dump them to be that extra 3 sec of story content worth getting upset over.

 

They havent stated PVP companions will lock eachothers out, only PVE ones will have chains. If that is going to change, THEN be upset. Not before.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Kiesu

[SootyTX]

Alliance alert companions will have no chapter story restriction whatsoever.

Unless you consider that one after-quest-completion conversation option to recruit or dump them to be that extra 3 sec of story content worth getting upset over.

 

They havent stated PVP companions will lock eachothers out, only PVE ones will have chains. If that is going to change, THEN be upset. Not before.

 

 

No offense, but this post shows the ignorance of those arguing for keeping the stupid PvP gate for companions.

 

As far as many of us are concerned, gating Forex/Pierce behind PvP is restricting our potential story with that companion. Its a story thing, its a "journey" thing, its a fluffy thing that, frankly, most PvP oriented players simply do not, and will not, understand, in much the same way that I don't understand why they feel like superior human beings to others because of what happens in a gimmick ridden psuedo-contest.

 

My Jedi Knight, who led the ENTIRE Republic battle forces on several planets went up to Forex to get him to join an Alliance of Republic and Empire forces against the greatest enemy the galaxy has yet to see - and the robot says "nope, sorry, not until you've killed a bunch of random Empire personel across the length and breadth of the galaxy".

 

It's an sorry excuse of the term "story" to have included this nonsense and its an insult to all our intelligence that this is anything but a sad attempt to bump up WZ participation numbers.

[Kiesu]

No offense, but this post shows the ignorance of those arguing for keeping the stupid PvP gate for companions.

And this line only shows you cherry-picking what content should be rewarded and how and what shouldn't, based on PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

[sundogalmighty]

*Sigh* This game is really three games in one, it is brilliant how we have PvE, PvP and Starfighter in one game. Absolutely brilliant. How BW manage the juggling act of keeping us happy is mindblowing, evidently we cant all be happy all the time but they seem to be doing a good job of keeping the majority happy. I enjoy trying to play all the aspects of the game, that's why I pay to play, and i'm happy that some of my sub goes to keeping PvP and Starfighter missions active (even though I rarely use them) because I know some of you guys would leave without them and the whole game would suffer as a result. ( I have many hours of PvP under my belt, I do enjoy it in small doses, I don't want any of that to change and I am not asking to omit a mission 'cos its toooo hard, or I don't like the boss.

Over the nine lvl 65's I have it would take well over 150 rounds in PvP to complete those stories to open up the next char missions. The point is we don't know how much future content is going to hang on those chars, and having to PvP to continue the story (what next? 50 PvP's per char (shudder)).

Its not a gear thing, I have 220's and 208's, its not a tactics thing, it's the pace of the game I guess. Too hectic, too frantic for me. I play a bit more relaxed than that. My reactions maybe, not good enough for PvP.

I enjoy it "occasionally" please don't make me do it

To everyone who has expressed any interest in this "problem": Imagine if they introduced a part of the story or a new WZ that was locked behind having to do 20 rounds per char doing Starfighter missions against the guys who have been playing Starfighter missions since the game started. How many times are you going to die? And would you ask why you have to fly a starship when you just want to fight battles on the ground?

I don't want to bypass something difficult, give me anything other than having me play 150 rounds of PvP. And then more for every char I start.

[sundogalmighty]

Thanks for trying Sooty:)

[Master-Nala]

My Jedi Knight, who led the ENTIRE Republic battle forces on several planets went up to Forex to get him to join an Alliance of Republic and Empire forces against the greatest enemy the galaxy has yet to see - and the robot says "nope, sorry, not until you've killed a bunch of random Empire personel across the length and breadth of the galaxy".

 

Couple of things here:

 

1) Your Jedi Knight never led all the Republic forces on ANY planet. Never. Not once. The Consular did raise and command an army of irregular forces. The Trooper led a special forces contingent against the bastion. The JK led the Jedi stationed on Corellia. That's it.

 

2) It's not random personnel you're being asked to kill. You're being asked to kill the Emperor's Wrath, Darth Nox/Oculus/Imperious, the mysterious Cypher 9, and the Republic's Most Wanted Criminal.

 

M1-4X wants to work for someone who understands that the "mindless hedonists of the Sith Empire," need to be defeated. And that only comes from hunting big game. Game that fights back.

[SootyTX]

And this line only shows you cherry-picking what content should be rewarded and how and what shouldn't, based on PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

 

Nope, but I can understand its a little complicated for some people.

 

I expect the rewards to match the content. And, logically, for the content gates to be appropriate for the rewards. Its as simple as that.

 

I don't expect to get PvP gear for doing Ops - in fact, PvPers have started riots when PvE gear back at one point was better for PvP than their PvP gear. That was wrong, and it was changed.

 

Individual companions are PURELY PvE content. in fact, they aren't even really that as much as they are purely individual player story content. There is no practical gameplay difference between any two companions any more, as has been pointed out many many times. And that is fine. However, there is a massive difference between the companions in terms of story and individual player interaction within that story.

 

And that's the problem I have with the current gating involving PvP. As I've said elsewhere, you PvPers would be up in arms waving torches and pitchforks if your mainhand PvP weapon was gated behind completing a large number of PvE HM Ops - don't even try to deny it. And that is how many PvE players, especially RPers, feel about this stupid PvP gate for companions.

 

And it seems like the only honest counter argument I've yet to see from any PvPer about it is "too bad, that's how it is, just deal with it". i wonder how well that attitude would have worked for them back when PvE gear was better than theirs?

[sundogalmighty]

No PvP'er would be happy if the next Exp said they could have a new WZ to play in but only if they play Starfighter missions 20 times for each char they have against vastly more experienced Starfighters. Actually that would probably make the forum explode.

Yes you say, you will do it, mop it up and stop crying. But you have to play Starfighter 20 times for every char you have, you can only have the wz on that char, so if you have ten chars you have to play Starfighter 200 times to unlock the wz for each one. You PvP'ers honestly say you would happily do Starfighter missions to unlock your new content?

[Kawiki]

 

And it seems like the only honest counter argument I've yet to see from any PvPer about it is "too bad, that's how it is, just deal with it". i wonder how well that attitude would have worked for them back when PvE gear was better than theirs?

 

Back when there were PvE items that were BiS for PvP most PvP players just did deal with it as it was required to stay on par with the competition. I'm sure there were some complainers but by and large most just got it done.

 

Datacrones are also a huge pain to get and they now make a significant difference. I classify these as PvE items but are needed to stay competitive in PvP.

 

Also leveling by PvPing only still takes more time then PvE so most PvPers do some amount of PvP content.

 

Also if you want to earn credits you need to do some PvE.

 

Let's not forget if you want any companions for crafting or anything else you actually need to PvE.

 

In addition, no new content has been added to PvP in over a year. Be glad you actually have new content.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Kawiki

[Yespa]

A couple of things to be said about the pve/pvp conundrum. This is a MMO - RPGs. Therefor, they are Role Playing Games with a Massive Multiplayer environment. This is NOT, i repeat NOT, a MMO PVP game. Having pvp content and endgame content is all fine and dandy, but the general mass of the player base of this and many other MMOs are here for the RPG continuity of the Star Wars Universe and immersion.

 

What occurred at the start of this game, was a mass amount of players came from a recently sunk amazing star wars mmo, star wars galaxies, and many others from warcraft. SWG had been a sandbox and after a while people got bored, and it turned into massive sandbox world pvp, and those players then migrated here expecting the same thing. I wont even get into the warcraft of things, as that is crap piled on top of crap to begin with.

 

With that being said, pvp is nice, and tons of people due to the gaming culture love to go through the mouse wheel of what we have as pvp. This has little to no effect on the game whatsoever and is more of a vanity matter than any sort of rpg or immersion factor. This game is, has and will always be about the story content, especially given its historical predecessors of KOTOR 1 and 2. People pay to play their game, not the other way around. Bioware/Lucas Arts et al are not here to "create" your game for you, but rather to create an immersive historical star wars rpg experience.

 

Now if they were to implement real world, functional pvp objectives that have an impact on planetary and galaxy objectives, it would be a different story and much more immersive. Imagine Empire controlled planets with embargoes and blockades preventing transport, or increasing fees and requiring smugglers to fly you in on their ships. This is what star wars is really about, and we are missing it. The space simulations are nothing compared to SWG Jump to Lightspeed space, where you could literally fly in open space from planet to planet and fight other players in random encounters etc etc.

 

The pve is ok, and the pvp situation is hirroble, we get that. What needs to be done is a massive overhaul of the game, which costs $$$$, and requires alot of beaucratic diplomacy to bring it up to its full potential, that unless the player base were to unite and make serious discussions, demands and the like to EA not just Bioware, we will not see any solid changes in the overall scheme of things, but rather mini advances like weve seen recently.

 

If you want to see amazing pvp, aim for real world pvp not just hamster wheel pvp that everyones ego has gotten stuck in. Look for zone, city, planet, and galaxy wide pvp objectives that affect the opposing faction. Look for these changes 3 years ago, because as of now, the empire and republic are uniting against a neutral sided threat, making the viability of faction vs faction less immersive now.

 

Bottom line is, this isnt pvp-wars, its star wars. its about player, class and companion story. If youre here just for the pvp, youre in the wrong place. This game was never designed, nor were any star wars mmo's designed for pvp content. Its about inspiring people, its about showing the intricacies of the dark and the light and how to overcome obstacles and play the hero or the villain or the person in the shadows. If you want SWTOR's real pvp, catch those people exploiting the economy, work hard to fight against imperial guilds mastering the GTN through price control. The real pvp is in star wars mmo economics, not the silly warzone hamster wheels.

[Master-Nala]

No PvP'er would be happy if the next Exp said they could have a new WZ to play in but only if they play Starfighter missions 20 times for each char they have against vastly more experienced Starfighters. Actually that would probably make the forum explode.

Yes you say, you will do it, mop it up and stop crying. But you have to play Starfighter 20 times for every char you have, you can only have the wz on that char, so if you have ten chars you have to play Starfighter 200 times to unlock the wz for each one. You PvP'ers honestly say you would happily do Starfighter missions to unlock your new content?

 

I hate analogy games, but yours is so bad that I wanted to respond.

 

Your analogy is inapposite what we're talking about. You are talking about gating playable content behind playable content. What is happening with 4x/Pierce is that a reward is gated behind playable content.

 

As I said in my first post in this thread, you proceed from false assumptions. No story is gated behind this quest. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. If the developers decided to gate a companion or some other reward behind Starfighter or an Operation, that would be just fine with me. In fact, I think they should do just that.