Class Adjustments For PVP (Compendium Vol. 1)

[Lhancelot]

OVER-PERFORMING CLASSES THAT NEED ADJUSTED:

 

1. AP/PT:

 

Burst is too high, sustained damage way too strong for such high burst. Needs nerfed. If people want the ridiculous burst and sustained damage to stay, then HO needs a higher CD or lower active time available, OR remove leap. This is stupid how mobile such a high-octane DPS class is. NO dps should enjoy 2nd highest damaging attack, highest burst along with awesome mobility. Utterly ridiculous.

 

 

2. Healing sorc:

 

Healing is over-performing. Either adjust power management so heals take more power (seeing the class can simply get instant power from clicking their power regen ability, or lower some of the heals. Why do other classes have to micro-manage their healing and power useage and still have less overall healing? Totally imbalanced here!

 

 

NOTE: I know this is the elephant in the room, no one wants to address overperforming juggs because of the staunch defense of the players who main this class, but, let's be honest with it here. I realize this will be met with "juggs are fine it's a L2P issue!", and that's fine too, but let me express my opinion and then you decide.

 

 

3. Juggernaut:

 

Overall damage is a bit high. Needs toned down. When a jugg is doing top damage in a wz, and also providing 1mil guarding, yeah, something aint right. Either nerf heal-to-full to only providing them with health up to 50% of their full health. Full health from this ability makes a jugg entirely too effective at staying alive and doing extreme amounts of damage. Why this class gets to enjoy the most powerful defensives available ALONG with a heal-to-full ability is beyond me. Either some nerf to their damage needs done, or their defensives need altered.

 

 

4. MM Sniper burst:

 

I really had to struggle with this, because the class is such a predictable one and to really get the most out of it, IMO it requires the most optimal situations. Meaning, it has to have a target that stands and eats it's damage in the face. Most average players realize when they see the ambush crosshairs on them, they need to find a LOS to hide. But. 30-35k crits, basically half the hps of a player in PVP in one hit is a tad extreme.

 

IF, and only IF this damage is toned down, then snipers need some mobility or some better defensives. I know this will never happen, so honestly, I am content with them having slightly too high damage on their big hits. It's very situational, and manageable IMO.

 

 

5. Madness Sorc:

 

This dot-spreading machine is overperforming with how easy it spreads it's dots, and how much damage they do. Fluff damage? Maybe. But, it kills and puts a lot of pressure on healers.

 

Either make the dots cost more power so they can't throw dots everywhere with no worries of running out of power, ever, or make the dot-spread more complex so it's not so easy to spread. I don't think reducing the damage is a good idea because heals are able to counter them fairly easily as it is now.

 

 

6. Deception Assassin:

 

Low slash is too powerful. This class already enjoys tons of CC immunities along with tons of CC to be used on enemies. A four second mez, on a 15 second cooldown is stupid. Either make the ability have a short 4m range, or lengthen cooldown time on it! A 4 second mez should not be on a 15 sec cooldown with a 30m range!

 

 

 

UNDER-PERFORMING CLASSES THAT NEED ADJUSTED:

 

 

1. Merc Healer:

 

This healer doesn't manage AE damage as well as the other two, but with the above changes it wouldn't matter. The main issue this class suffers from is lack of ability to deal with focused damage. It needs a way to break out of combat and force a switch when focused, as both other healers get.

 

If this doesn't happen, then the class needs to have even better innate defensives to deal with the constant barrage of never-ending damage they receive. Propulsion should automatically give the healing merc immunity to leaps, interupts and CC for 6 seconds. Making the merc have to choose this as a choice in their top tier of utilities is redundant because, NO ONE will pick it as there are WAY more important choices that have to be picked instead!

 

An alternative way would be to create a new ability; after propulsion some sort of overload shield is thrown up and absorbs all damage for 8 seconds and renders the merc immune to all CC (similar to god-bubble that sorcs get).

 

 

2. Lethality Operative:

 

This class has the most retarded dot-spread mechanic in the game. The dots hit like wet noodles and it's burst takes too long to set up and hits like a pillow. Needs more hitting power, either on it's burst or make it's dots actually hurt!

 

 

3. Lightning Sorc:

 

This dps needs better burst, period. When a healer can simply ignore it's burst and continue healing others as well as themselves while this dps targets them, you know it's weak. Just bump up it's burst please.

 

 

4. IO Merc:

 

Having the second most retarded dot-spreading mechanic in the game, this class has potential to be decent. The problem is, it really has an ability bloat imo. You have to load up so many dots to get all your procs rolling and all your damages moving that you end up out of power after one complete rotation!

 

Maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but this class runs out of power so fast, and to spread it's dots, too many other abilities have to be layered to maximize their damage before dot-spread can even be started. It's just very clunky, and needs to be redone, the whole damaging system of this class is bad.

 

 

5. Pyro PT:

 

I have to admit, my experience of playing this spec is nil. I only can speak from the perspective of fighting them, but it's pretty obvious they are underperforming because I can't tell you one player that plays this spec in PVP and makes an impression on me. They seem to have no burst, and no survivability. Others could give better feedback on what exactly they need.

 

 

6. Virulence Sniper:

 

This class was in a good spot prior to 4.0, after that, their dots hit like wet noodles and their burst with cull is utterly pathetic. Totally unplayable in PVP now, complete garbage and gutted for no reason!

[Sevarn]

Where are juggernauts over performing? Pve - No. Solo ranked - No. Group ranked - No. Reg warzones - we're good. Any sort of a nerf right now would kill the class in every aspect of the game.

[Technohic]

Yeah, not sure about Jugg yet.

 

Sorc; I think their healing needs reduced all around whether strength or heal to full DCDs; dots reduced for Madness; but then madness needs a single target damage buff to compensate and lightning should benefit the most from a damage buff.

[Thaladan]

do you play maraudeur?

 

because you don't mentionned them and they are totally cheated.

 

tons of immune roots, immune snare, immune cc, supervanish, insane busrt and mobility, in carnage and rage, it's ridiculous how they are strong.

 

only PTs can do better

Edited November 29, 2015 by Thaladan

[Lhancelot]

Yeah, not sure about Jugg yet.

 

Sorc; I think their healing needs reduced all around whether strength or heal to full DCDs; dots reduced for Madness; but then madness needs a single target damage buff to compensate and lightning should benefit the most from a damage buff.

 

I seen juggs do top damage and end up with 1-1.5mil protection so many times now it's become commonplace. But, honestly it's not something that I stress about.

 

There's way worse things, like PTs and healing sorcs. Both of them are way too easy to play and enjoy way too many advantages whether it's mobility, burst heals/damage, or what have you.

[Lhancelot]

do you play maraudeur?

 

because you don't mentionned them and they are totally cheated.

 

tons of immune roots, immune snare, immune cc, supervanish, insane busrt and mobility, in carnage and rage, it's ridiculous how they are strong.

 

only PTs can do better

 

I think marauders are fine. Yes, they are strong but are they overperforming? I don't think so. Just my opinion ofc.

[flyingwarden]

I seen juggs do top damage and end up with 1-1.5mil protection so many times now it's become commonplace. But, honestly it's not something that I stress about.

 

There's way worse things, like PTs and healing sorcs. Both of them are way too easy to play and enjoy way too many advantages whether it's mobility, burst heals/damage, or what have you.

 

Aren't all tanks over-performing in the damage department? So, that's not exclusive to jugg tanks. Pt's are op as hell currently though. One isnt that difficult to take down, but if there's 2 and a healer, no matter who you focus you're still gonna get globaled. I just hope when the nerf comes, pyro isn't nerfed by association.

[Lalainnia]

OVER-PERFORMING CLASSES THAT NEED ADJUSTED:

 

1. AP/PT:

 

Burst is too high, sustained damage way too strong for such high burst. Needs nerfed. If people want the ridiculous burst and sustained damage to stay, then HO needs a higher CD or lower active time available, OR remove leap. This is stupid how mobile such a high-octane DPS class is. NO dps should enjoy 2nd highest damaging attack, highest burst along with awesome mobility. Utterly ridiculous.

 

 

2. Healing sorc:

 

Healing is over-performing. Either adjust power management so heals take more power (seeing the class can simply get instant power from clicking their power regen ability, or lower some of the heals. Why do other classes have to micro-manage their healing and power useage and still have less overall healing? Totally imbalanced here!

 

 

NOTE: I know this is the elephant in the room, no one wants to address overperforming juggs because of the staunch defense of the players who main this class, but, let's be honest with it here. I realize this will be met with "juggs are fine it's a L2P issue!", and that's fine too, but let me express my opinion and then you decide.

 

 

3. Juggernaut:

 

Overall damage is a bit high. Needs toned down. When a jugg is doing top damage in a wz, and also providing 1mil guarding, yeah, something aint right. Either nerf heal-to-full to only providing them with health up to 50% of their full health. Full health from this ability makes a jugg entirely too effective at staying alive and doing extreme amounts of damage. Why this class gets to enjoy the most powerful defensives available ALONG with a heal-to-full ability is beyond me. Either some nerf to their damage needs done, or their defensives need altered.

 

 

4. MM Sniper burst:

 

I really had to struggle with this, because the class is such a predictable one and to really get the most out of it, IMO it requires the most optimal situations. Meaning, it has to have a target that stands and eats it's damage in the face. Most average players realize when they see the ambush crosshairs on them, they need to find a LOS to hide. But. 30-35k crits, basically half the hps of a player in PVP in one hit is a tad extreme.

 

IF, and only IF this damage is toned down, then snipers need some mobility or some better defensives. I know this will never happen, so honestly, I am content with them having slightly too high damage on their big hits. It's very situational, and manageable IMO.

 

 

5. Madness Sorc:

 

This dot-spreading machine is overperforming with how easy it spreads it's dots, and how much damage they do. Fluff damage? Maybe. But, it kills and puts a lot of pressure on healers.

 

Either make the dots cost more power so they can't throw dots everywhere with no worries of running out of power, ever, or make the dot-spread more complex so it's not so easy to spread. I don't think reducing the damage is a good idea because heals are able to counter them fairly easily as it is now.

 

 

6. Deception Assassin:

 

Low slash is too powerful. This class already enjoys tons of CC immunities along with tons of CC to be used on enemies. A four second mez, on a 15 second cooldown is stupid. Either make the ability have a short 4m range, or lengthen cooldown time on it! A 4 second mez should not be on a 15 sec cooldown with a 30m range!

 

 

 

UNDER-PERFORMING CLASSES THAT NEED ADJUSTED:

 

 

1. Merc Healer:

 

This healer doesn't manage AE damage as well as the other two, but with the above changes it wouldn't matter. The main issue this class suffers from is lack of ability to deal with focused damage. It needs a way to break out of combat and force a switch when focused, as both other healers get.

 

If this doesn't happen, then the class needs to have even better innate defensives to deal with the constant barrage of never-ending damage they receive. Propulsion should automatically give the healing merc immunity to leaps, interupts and CC for 6 seconds. Making the merc have to choose this as a choice in their top tier of utilities is redundant because, NO ONE will pick it as there are WAY more important choices that have to be picked instead!

 

An alternative way would be to create a new ability; after propulsion some sort of overload shield is thrown up and absorbs all damage for 8 seconds and renders the merc immune to all CC (similar to god-bubble that sorcs get).

 

 

2. Lethality Operative:

 

This class has the most retarded dot-spread mechanic in the game. The dots hit like wet noodles and it's burst takes too long to set up and hits like a pillow. Needs more hitting power, either on it's burst or make it's dots actually hurt!

 

 

3. Lightning Sorc:

 

This dps needs better burst, period. When a healer can simply ignore it's burst and continue healing others as well as themselves while this dps targets them, you know it's weak. Just bump up it's burst please.

 

 

4. IO Merc:

 

Having the second most retarded dot-spreading mechanic in the game, this class has potential to be decent. The problem is, it really has an ability bloat imo. You have to load up so many dots to get all your procs rolling and all your damages moving that you end up out of power after one complete rotation!

 

Maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but this class runs out of power so fast, and to spread it's dots, too many other abilities have to be layered to maximize their damage before dot-spread can even be started. It's just very clunky, and needs to be redone, the whole damaging system of this class is bad.

 

 

5. Pyro PT:

 

I have to admit, my experience of playing this spec is nil. I only can speak from the perspective of fighting them, but it's pretty obvious they are underperforming because I can't tell you one player that plays this spec in PVP and makes an impression on me. They seem to have no burst, and no survivability. Others could give better feedback on what exactly they need.

 

 

6. Virulence Sniper:

 

This class was in a good spot prior to 4.0, after that, their dots hit like wet noodles and their burst with cull is utterly pathetic. Totally unplayable in PVP now, complete garbage and gutted for no reason!

 

While you bring some very great and true points I personally think a lot of them are over exaggerated and done in frustration with the games class balance.

 

AP/PT-plain and simply tbh they need to lose damage spec needs the utility it currently has(mobility) just needs to lose damage, it also does have the highest possible burst in the game MM is behind it. The place to start would most likely be the crit bonus damage buffs on specific moves like railshot and energy burst can leave TD, rocket punch, blade, and mag blast alone don't want to gut the spec.

 

Healing sorcs/sages- Besides having to strong of a resource regain roaming mend is simply to strong and the crit buffs from force bending/conveyance need to be lowered along with some other healing numbers mostly a tone down of everything they got significantly buffed in 3.3. Believe it or not sorcs utility is very much needed if anyone that played a sorc before Barrier and even PW did can understand this. Sorcs literally are just healing for to much in burst and sustained without any drawbacks.

 

Juggernauts- This honestly just sounds like a personal distaste of juggernauts number 3 really? If anything seems like your facing juggernauts that know how to cycle cds properly it's an amazing 1v1 class and great in group play but nothing really insane on it besides pool hatred this ability either needs to go back down 5% from 10% get moved to heroic utility or have a interal cd as slows are everywhere and this really causes a massive damage boost that is easily the most set in stone choice for dps to take for pvp.

 

MM- Really doesn't require any optimal settings to kill a target if anything it's very good fishing out kills pressure burst etc anything that involves taking someone down. MM's burst and sustained is indeed to high and should see surge treatment like AP but on specific moves such as Snipe and possibly follow through this way the class is still able to burst but doesn't have insane sustained with snipe 7k+ snipe crits in pvp are to powerful. Main thing for snipers that's hard is using def cds properly they don't last long and do very specific things outside of entrench which has great uptime.

 

Madness- This specs dot spread is so strong literally because of a lv 20 talent called death mark that buffs periodic damage by 10% for the next 15 ticks after using deathfield. Pretty much imagine the old version of leth snipers dots just with the ability to spread weakening blast / toxic blast it's essentially what madness spread is but easier to hit with and has a cd.

 

Deception- Low slash is actually needed now prob not before 4.0 but it's needed for this spec and it's not because of the force speed nerf as they got enough things to compensate with stride and slow/speed boost in utility if chosen. Deception has always been about control and having low slash as a ranged mez fits the specs playstyle and opens up for skill based kills caps and general good stuff.

 

Merc heals honestly need better utility selection and for shield talents to be merged as well as some form of a minor speed boost after using rocket out like 50% speed for 2 seconds. Outside of this though we need easier heat management and a larger charge cap on kolto shells those are the 2 points I would personally focus on because our overall healing and "saving lifes" strength is capped by our awful resources. We need no Force barrier like ability literally needs improved resources and utilities to be merged so it frees crucial options.

 

Leth op- straight up needs better set up time, frag grenade to spread dots, and kolto infusion to be off the gcd after rolling and un nerfing cut down and lethal dose.

 

Lighting- needs it's crit bonus damage back maybe 25% on everything except TB it also needs recklessness to interact like a super crit with TB so they can get those super hard hits if someone felt like using it with TB.

 

IQ - Needs easier heat management and a re buffed pyro cell dot. It could really use some of its old talents back from utility like pyro shield arsenal and bodyguard shouldn't have access to this same the reduced cd on kncokback after taking damage same goes for suit foe tbh ( would miss it as a healer when facing nothing but dots)

 

Pyro Pt- needs it's surge back nothing else tbh especially since overload actually works now maybe something for its threat drop considering it has a talent that reduces it.

 

Virulence- needs its periodic crit chance un nerfed and lv 64 talent changed to something useful.

[Lundorff]

Great post and many excellent point.

 

A few observations:

 

Juggernaut: DPS could use a slight reduction in damage, but I don't generally find it be an issue. Tank spec is far more problematic. On the one hand I want to tone down the DPS, but at the same time I do not want to increase their tankiness. Making tanks even better at taking damage will only exacerbate the whole healer + tank problem. But so few people play a dedicated tank these days, and I also want to encourage more players to try it out. Highly problematic. How to make something more appealing but also more balanced?

 

Marauder: Just hit 65 and went all out on gear, augments and stims. I am now a greek god of a speed running hate machine that plows down everything in my path. Especially with a healer. So much mobility and so much damage and immunity. I don't get why more people don't play it (I am often the only marauder in the group). I think, sadly, that predation needs to be changed again. Either a higher cool down or make it cost rage again. Or perhaps remove the immunity on the level 48 skill (vortex something, that makes force crush grant immunity in Fury build).

 

Commandos/Mercs: They needs SOMETHING in DPS spec. Some sort of god bubble or bloody combat cloack. Obviously they also need work in healing spec.

 

Snipers MM: I would love to give them more ranged defensive options. Like the knock back and leg shot but then remove some of their "tankiness". I swear it's harder to kill a sniper than a commando in heavy armor. A sniper should be more vulnerable up close, but with more skills to keep people away from him. This included a better degree of stealth detection. It would make the class harder to play on casual, but those that truly understands to keep people at bay would shine.

 

Operatives CON: I really like my operative but I don't play the class at the moment. It feels mostly pointless with all the range damage and with marauders speeding all over the place. I am mostly delegated to node guard or node stealer. Gets tedious.

[Lhancelot]

While you bring some very great and true points I personally think a lot of them are over exaggerated and done in frustration with the games class balance.

 

AP/PT-plain and simply tbh they need to lose damage spec needs the utility it currently has(mobility) just needs to lose damage, it also does have the highest possible burst in the game MM is behind it. The place to start would most likely be the crit bonus damage buffs on specific moves like railshot and energy burst can leave TD, rocket punch, blade, and mag blast alone don't want to gut the spec.

 

Healing sorcs/sages- Besides having to strong of a resource regain roaming mend is simply to strong and the crit buffs from force bending/conveyance need to be lowered along with some other healing numbers mostly a tone down of everything they got significantly buffed in 3.3. Believe it or not sorcs utility is very much needed if anyone that played a sorc before Barrier and even PW did can understand this. Sorcs literally are just healing for to much in burst and sustained without any drawbacks.

 

Juggernauts- This honestly just sounds like a personal distaste of juggernauts number 3 really? If anything seems like your facing juggernauts that know how to cycle cds properly it's an amazing 1v1 class and great in group play but nothing really insane on it besides pool hatred this ability either needs to go back down 5% from 10% get moved to heroic utility or have a interal cd as slows are everywhere and this really causes a massive damage boost that is easily the most set in stone choice for dps to take for pvp.

 

MM- Really doesn't require any optimal settings to kill a target if anything it's very good fishing out kills pressure burst etc anything that involves taking someone down. MM's burst and sustained is indeed to high and should see surge treatment like AP but on specific moves such as Snipe and possibly follow through this way the class is still able to burst but doesn't have insane sustained with snipe 7k+ snipe crits in pvp are to powerful. Main thing for snipers that's hard is using def cds properly they don't last long and do very specific things outside of entrench which has great uptime.

 

Madness- This specs dot spread is so strong literally because of a lv 20 talent called death mark that buffs periodic damage by 10% for the next 15 ticks after using deathfield. Pretty much imagine the old version of leth snipers dots just with the ability to spread weakening blast / toxic blast it's essentially what madness spread is but easier to hit with and has a cd.

 

Deception- Low slash is actually needed now prob not before 4.0 but it's needed for this spec and it's not because of the force speed nerf as they got enough things to compensate with stride and slow/speed boost in utility if chosen. Deception has always been about control and having low slash as a ranged mez fits the specs playstyle and opens up for skill based kills caps and general good stuff.

 

Merc heals honestly need better utility selection and for shield talents to be merged as well as some form of a minor speed boost after using rocket out like 50% speed for 2 seconds. Outside of this though we need easier heat management and a larger charge cap on kolto shells those are the 2 points I would personally focus on because our overall healing and "saving lifes" strength is capped by our awful resources. We need no Force barrier like ability literally needs improved resources and utilities to be merged so it frees crucial options.

 

Leth op- straight up needs better set up time, frag grenade to spread dots, and kolto infusion to be off the gcd after rolling and un nerfing cut down and lethal dose.

 

Lighting- needs it's crit bonus damage back maybe 25% on everything except TB it also needs recklessness to interact like a super crit with TB so they can get those super hard hits if someone felt like using it with TB.

 

IQ - Needs easier heat management and a re buffed pyro cell dot. It could really use some of its old talents back from utility like pyro shield arsenal and bodyguard shouldn't have access to this same the reduced cd on kncokback after taking damage same goes for suit foe tbh ( would miss it as a healer when facing nothing but dots)

 

Pyro Pt- needs it's surge back nothing else tbh especially since overload actually works now maybe something for its threat drop considering it has a talent that reduces it.

 

Virulence- needs its periodic crit chance un nerfed and lv 64 talent changed to something useful.

 

Yeah, I suppose I do have a personal dislike for juggs, looking at it all, it seems every class I ever enjoyed playing is always at a disadvantage against a jugg especially when they got their defensives to pop. It pisses me off.

 

I am not exaggerating the numbers they put up and protection too. It just seems a bit overboard.

 

You make good points and all sound pretty reasonable to me. A little more detail in explaining why some of the classes are weak too, thanks for that.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

do you play maraudeur?

 

because you don't mentionned them and they are totally cheated.

 

tons of immune roots, immune snare, immune cc, supervanish, insane busrt and mobility, in carnage and rage, it's ridiculous how they are strong.

 

only PTs can do better

 

Outside of our defensives though, we are a gimped Juggernaut.

[Lhancelot]

Great post and many excellent point.

 

A few observations:

 

Juggernaut: DPS could use a slight reduction in damage, but I don't generally find it be an issue. Tank spec is far more problematic. On the one hand I want to tone down the DPS, but at the same time I do not want to increase their tankiness. Making tanks even better at taking damage will only exacerbate the whole healer + tank problem. But so few people play a dedicated tank these days, and I also want to encourage more players to try it out. Highly problematic. How to make something more appealing but also more balanced?

 

Marauder: Just hit 65 and went all out on gear, augments and stims. I am now a greek god of a speed running hate machine that plows down everything in my path. Especially with a healer. So much mobility and so much damage and immunity. I don't get why more people don't play it (I am often the only marauder in the group). I think, sadly, that predation needs to be changed again. Either a higher cool down or make it cost rage again. Or perhaps remove the immunity on the level 48 skill (vortex something, that makes force crush grant immunity in Fury build).

 

Commandos/Mercs: They needs SOMETHING in DPS spec. Some sort of god bubble or bloody combat cloack. Obviously they also need work in healing spec.

 

Snipers MM: I would love to give them more ranged defensive options. Like the knock back and leg shot but then remove some of their "tankiness". I swear it's harder to kill a sniper than a commando in heavy armor. A sniper should be more vulnerable up close, but with more skills to keep people away from him. This included a better degree of stealth detection. It would make the class harder to play on casual, but those that truly understands to keep people at bay would shine.

 

Operatives CON: I really like my operative but I don't play the class at the moment. It feels mostly pointless with all the range damage and with marauders speeding all over the place. I am mostly delegated to node guard or node stealer. Gets tedious.

 

You know, I was going to edit my comment to the guy that criticized my take (or lack thereof) on marauders... I was actually thinking it over and was going to make a note that, if anything I don't like about them is predation.

 

I know it's useful, it's great for them and the group in fact... But it seems to be too good. I mean, its insanely fast and with all the other CC immunities now in the game, and speed boosts, is it really needed? I doubt it.

 

As for how hard they hit, yeah they hit hard, and yes they do lots of damage but I still think they are fairly manageable and go down pretty fast without a healer. They actually have to work for their damage and that's fair imo (unlike a PT which brainlessly runs through a 4 button rotation ftw).

 

The irony of it all is my first cap level character was a PT, I loved it, and that was when they were not really an overperforming class. My second was a healing sage and that too was fun for me when it was not a FOTM class.

 

The game has made me switch to classes I never wanted to play much, due to them being more challenging and rewarding.

 

How are healing sorcs fun? How is it fun to dominate on a dps PT with so much riduclous burst at disposal? I don't get it, really. I don't find the dumbing down of these classes enjoyable at all and I am actually disappointed.

[Master-Nala]

Just responding re Madness:

 

DoT spread is stupid, I agree. Bioware seems to be wedded to it, so I would suggest the following:

 

1) Force Horrors (10% to DoTs) now provides a 10% damage boost to Lightning Strike, Demolish and Force Leech.

 

2) Wrath causes Lightning Strike and Demolish to do 35% more damage (from 25%)

 

3) Creeping Death (higher periodic damage <30%) reduced to 10% bonus damage (from 15%).

 

 

Then let's see where we're at. To be honest, I don't think Madness is really a problem in the presense of Sorc healing. The DoTs hurt, but people focus on Madness because it's the undeniable best DoT spec right now. But really its ST is atrocious and needs to be buffed. I would be fine with losing DoT spread entirely if we could get some decent ST sustained and a bit of burst.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Master-Nala

[Giliodor]

Could somebody please explain to me why anyone would want to nerf marauders? They seem to be one of the most balanced class around right now. I usually see bads very low on the scoreboard in terms of damage. At the same time, good ones can top the scoreboards quite frequently, if not 90% of the time.

 

Yes, Predation gives some nice mobility... Which is exactly what it's supposed to do, marauders are a melee class. They need this skill. Juggernauts have Enrage which does, kind of, the same thing, although it doesn't apply to the entire group, but marauders don't have an AoE and a single target taunt.

 

They do not have "so much immunity", it's 6 seconds every 30 seconds, and 6 seconds once every 2 minutes. That is not a lot, and it's only in Fury. If you want to take the 6 seconds on Saber Ward in Carnage, you're not taking one of the more essential utilities, which would be a pretty big sacrifice.

 

So yeah, while I certainly do feel OP sometimes, that's mostly because I'm fighting poor players in regs. In (pre-season) ranked, I think we're pretty much on par with most other classes, but we're still outdone by PT's, good sorcs, good sins.

 

Unless I hear some very compelling arguments, I remain unconvinced that marauders need any kind of nerfs right now.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Giliodor

[csant]

Great thread... wonder if bioware is reading. =)

[James_Mcturney]

do you play maraudeur?

 

because you don't mentionned them and they are totally cheated.

 

tons of immune roots, immune snare, immune cc, supervanish, insane busrt and mobility, in carnage and rage, it's ridiculous how they are strong.

 

only PTs can do better

 

immune CC? only in concentration spec; if you waste a utility for saber ward, it might be useful only in yolos (and only if you don't get cced from stealth), still an awful utility that ties your best DCD to cc immune, on a 3 freaking minutes cooldown... stuff that ties cc immunity with dcds are always a bad idea.

Insane burst? Decent, almost all dps can do the same or better.

Insane mobility? We have to pay 2 utilities for -Decent Mobility-. The "op part" is that it affects all the party, imo it should have less range (10~15 meters instead of 40) + require only 1 utility instead of 2, transcendence should be 30 seconds cooldown instead of 30 centering baseline. Maybe another utility (skillfull or masterful) that increased transcendence range + increased the sentinel tech/force resistance a bit in the place of the current masterful transcendence utility or a bad skifull one

Supervanish? it's a 4 second vanish that can be deleted if an experienced pt/merc/sniper puts the stealth detection in time, it's easy.

Immune roots/snare? nope, just nope, it's snare/ root BREAK, he can be rooted immediatelly after.

You never play ranked i guess, it's ok, only the most brave do, marauders can get bursted to death or near it (and therefore, have it's impact neglected in yolos or even group ranked) by stealthers like they are nothing. Absolutely 0 defense while CC'ed (may even pop your cc breaker only to be cced again if you are out of luck/lag), you can waste an utility for that, but it only solves 20% of the problem as rebuke (20% DR) won't save you against lots of dps gank from a cc stealth start.

Edited December 1, 2015 by James_Mcturney

[Technohic]

Great thread... wonder if bioware is reading. =)

 

Lol 45

[Impulsive_Clone]

Threads like these always make me laugh a bit. They seem to be happening with more and more frequency. Who exactly is this post for? What's the target audience? If it's for other players, then I suppose this is just your take on which classes do what, while beating the same horse that sorc/sage and VG/PT outperform other classes. Which, by now, everyone seems to know and, in my opinion, feels a bit redundant to be saying YET AGAIN.

 

If somehow, you're expecting this to be new information to the people who code, develop and produce this game, then you're either delusional, or don't know any better. The people that make this game know exactly which classes do what, how they do it, and to what extent, as they do it for a living. It's arrogant, to say the least.

 

How about instead of complaining about the same topic, again. Why not discuss strategies to overcome these powerful classes. That, to me, seems more productive than filling the forums with another post where your favorite class, isn't flavor of the month.

[Technohic]

Threads like these always make me laugh a bit. They seem to be happening with more and more frequency. Who exactly is this post for? What's the target audience? If it's for other players, then I suppose this is just your take on which classes do what, while beating the same horse that sorc/sage and VG/PT outperform other classes. Which, by now, everyone seems to know and, in my opinion, feels a bit redundant to be saying YET AGAIN.

 

If somehow, you're expecting this to be new information to the people who code, develop and produce this game, then you're either delusional, or don't know any better. The people that make this game know exactly which classes do what, how they do it, and to what extent, as they do it for a living. It's arrogant, to say the least.

 

How about instead of complaining about the same topic, again. Why not discuss strategies to overcome these powerful classes. That, to me, seems more productive than filling the forums with another post where your favorite class, isn't flavor of the month.

 

Here's the strategy:

 

To beat sorc healers, bring more PTs and maybe some madness sorcs DOT spread for pressure and off heals

 

To beat PTs burst, and madness pressure, bring more sorce healers and PT tanks

 

Repeat until stalemate.

[James_Mcturney]

Threads like these always make me laugh a bit. They seem to be happening with more and more frequency. Who exactly is this post for? What's the target audience? If it's for other players, then I suppose this is just your take on which classes do what, while beating the same horse that sorc/sage and VG/PT outperform other classes. Which, by now, everyone seems to know and, in my opinion, feels a bit redundant to be saying YET AGAIN.

 

If somehow, you're expecting this to be new information to the people who code, develop and produce this game, then you're either delusional, or don't know any better. The people that make this game know exactly which classes do what, how they do it, and to what extent, as they do it for a living. It's arrogant, to say the least.

 

How about instead of complaining about the same topic, again. Why not discuss strategies to overcome these powerful classes. That, to me, seems more productive than filling the forums with another post where your favorite class, isn't flavor of the month.

 

Nope they don't know, or they are afraid of doing changes / commiting to the rebalance path. But as it stands now, any change is welcome. Even if its only to bring a new FOTD (flavor of the decade), let's hope at least it's not such an overperformance as pt/sorcs.

[alexsamma]

You know, I was going to edit my comment to the guy that criticized my take (or lack thereof) on marauders... I was actually thinking it over and was going to make a note that, if anything I don't like about them is predation.

 

I know it's useful, it's great for them and the group in fact... But it seems to be too good. I mean, its insanely fast and with all the other CC immunities now in the game, and speed boosts, is it really needed? I doubt it.

 

As for how hard they hit, yeah they hit hard, and yes they do lots of damage but I still think they are fairly manageable and go down pretty fast without a healer. They actually have to work for their damage and that's fair imo (unlike a PT which brainlessly runs through a 4 button rotation ftw).

 

The irony of it all is my first cap level character was a PT, I loved it, and that was when they were not really an overperforming class. My second was a healing sage and that too was fun for me when it was not a FOTM class.

 

The game has made me switch to classes I never wanted to play much, due to them being more challenging and rewarding.

 

How are healing sorcs fun? How is it fun to dominate on a dps PT with so much riduclous burst at disposal? I don't get it, really. I don't find the dumbing down of these classes enjoyable at all and I am actually disappointed.

 

Hey Lance, could you post screen shots of some your best matches on your sage, I just want to get an idea of what faceroll/easy mode in your vocabulary really translates to because I find that all but the best sage/sorc healers crumble when they face tough opposition.

[Savej]

OVER-PERFORMING CLASSES THAT NEED ADJUSTED:

 

...

3. Juggernaut:

 

Overall damage is a bit high. Needs toned down. When a jugg is doing top damage in a wz, and also providing 1mil guarding, yeah, something aint right. Either nerf heal-to-full to only providing them with health up to 50% of their full health. Full health from this ability makes a jugg entirely too effective at staying alive and doing extreme amounts of damage. Why this class gets to enjoy the most powerful defensives available ALONG with a heal-to-full ability is beyond me. Either some nerf to their damage needs done, or their defensives need altered.

 

...

 

 

I haven't seen a jugg top dps while doing 1 mill tanking. I'm sure it's possible but that means he had good heals on him and not much competition. You aren't talking about a common occurrence on Harbinger or Ebon Hawk or any other server I've played around on in the last 6+ mos.

 

Juggs are number 7-8 in the one form of pvp we have actual relatively objective numbers for. That, to me, says no nerfs are warranted and makes me question your logic/"facts" in general. Juggs (the melee dps) topping dps charts sometimes, with coordinated help, is not some sort of crime against humanity (or game balance). Non-stealth melee dps in general are supposed to be very good at dps and not just free targets for everyone else.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Savej

[DariusCalera]

On a lot of those I can agree with but on some, I don't.

 

1: I don't think juggernaut tanks are over performing. They don't have the cleave ability like a PT/VG tank does which is the only tank spec that I have seen come close to the numbers that you describe. I actually don't think that juggs/guardians in general are over performing. I think that they are one of the most balanced classes atm.

 

2: Your forgot about arsenal and gunnery. It has the same defensive issues as the other merc/mando specs. One of the changes I would make with this one is to have it's range increased to 35m. The other is to unnerf its HO.

 

Note: I said unnerf merc/mando HO/HtL not PT/VG because there is a difference and I swear, considering how the devs do things, they can't honestly tell the difference.

[Thaladan]

immune CC? only in concentration spec; if you waste a utility for saber ward, it might be useful only in yolos (and only if you don't get cced from stealth), still an awful utility that ties your best DCD to cc immune, on a 3 freaking minutes cooldown... stuff that ties cc immunity with dcds are always a bad idea.

Insane burst? Decent, almost all dps can do the same or better.

Insane mobility? We have to pay 2 utilities for -Decent Mobility-. The "op part" is that it affects all the party, imo it should has less range (10~15 meters instead of 40) + require only 1 utility instead of 2, transcendence should be 30 seconds cooldown instead of 30 centering baseline.

Supervanish? it's a 4 second vanish that can be deleted if an experienced pt/merc/sniper puts the stealth detection in time, it's easy.

Immune roots/snare? nope, just nope, it's snare/ root BREAK, he can be rooted immediatelly after.

You never play ranked i guess, it's ok, only the most brave do, marauders can get bursted to death or near it (and therefore, have it's impact neglected in yolos or even group ranked) by stealthers like they are nothing. Absolutely 0 defense while CC'ed (may even pop your cc breaker only to be cced again if you are out of luck/lag), you can waste an utility for that, but it only solves 20% of the problem as rebuke (20% DR) won't save you against lots of dps gank from a cc stealth start.

 

you never try to be honest speaking on your class i guess, it's ok, only the brave does.

 

-force camouflage grants immune to snare and roots, if you play the utility.

 

- mad dash grants a immune to numerous roots. and breaks a roots if you take the utility.

 

- predation breaks roots and give a undecent mobility if you take the utility

 

3 good choices, pick 2, or your problem.

 

- the 6sec immune cc is tier 1, srly even for a 3min cooldown you can try if you play rage to add a 12sec for an important 1vs1.

 

- carnage's burst is really good (i play the spec,you're just like a berserk in total blast mode imo, even against a PT), rage 2 hit burst is strong.

 

+ a 90% reduction to accuracy, wich is clearly underevaluated.

+ undying rage (although i agree that it's difficult to use the heroic because the other i quoted are too strong. or maybe for your ranked awesome 4vs4 in a box)

+ cloack of pain and an aoe mezz.

 

For me it's obvious that the Op spoke about balance wz in general. (when i read it's my feeling)

 

yes a big majority of players play warzones. arenas srly, LOL i stop it after season 3, it's a joke and boring. so maybe maraudeurs are not in top 3, so sorry for you (and i will wait the board of s7 to be sure).

 

In warzones, maraudeur is OP. 2 in a group is clearly a big advantage (and not just for predation), after sage/sorc healers.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Thaladan

[Pahana]

OVER-PERFORMING CLASSES THAT NEED ADJUSTED:

 

1. AP/PT:

 

Burst is too high, sustained damage way too strong for such high burst. Needs nerfed. If people want the ridiculous burst and sustained damage to stay, then HO needs a higher CD or lower active time available, OR remove leap. This is stupid how mobile such a high-octane DPS class is. NO dps should enjoy 2nd highest damaging attack, highest burst along with awesome mobility. Utterly ridiculous.

 

 

2. Healing sorc:

 

Healing is over-performing. Either adjust power management so heals take more power (seeing the class can simply get instant power from clicking their power regen ability, or lower some of the heals. Why do other classes have to micro-manage their healing and power useage and still have less overall healing? Totally imbalanced here!

 

 

NOTE: I know this is the elephant in the room, no one wants to address overperforming juggs because of the staunch defense of the players who main this class, but, let's be honest with it here. I realize this will be met with "juggs are fine it's a L2P issue!", and that's fine too, but let me express my opinion and then you decide.

 

 

3. Juggernaut:

 

Overall damage is a bit high. Needs toned down. When a jugg is doing top damage in a wz, and also providing 1mil guarding, yeah, something aint right. Either nerf heal-to-full to only providing them with health up to 50% of their full health. Full health from this ability makes a jugg entirely too effective at staying alive and doing extreme amounts of damage. Why this class gets to enjoy the most powerful defensives available ALONG with a heal-to-full ability is beyond me. Either some nerf to their damage needs done, or their defensives need altered.

 

 

4. MM Sniper burst:

 

I really had to struggle with this, because the class is such a predictable one and to really get the most out of it, IMO it requires the most optimal situations. Meaning, it has to have a target that stands and eats it's damage in the face. Most average players realize when they see the ambush crosshairs on them, they need to find a LOS to hide. But. 30-35k crits, basically half the hps of a player in PVP in one hit is a tad extreme.

 

IF, and only IF this damage is toned down, then snipers need some mobility or some better defensives. I know this will never happen, so honestly, I am content with them having slightly too high damage on their big hits. It's very situational, and manageable IMO.

 

 

5. Madness Sorc:

 

This dot-spreading machine is overperforming with how easy it spreads it's dots, and how much damage they do. Fluff damage? Maybe. But, it kills and puts a lot of pressure on healers.

 

Either make the dots cost more power so they can't throw dots everywhere with no worries of running out of power, ever, or make the dot-spread more complex so it's not so easy to spread. I don't think reducing the damage is a good idea because heals are able to counter them fairly easily as it is now.

 

 

6. Deception Assassin:

 

Low slash is too powerful. This class already enjoys tons of CC immunities along with tons of CC to be used on enemies. A four second mez, on a 15 second cooldown is stupid. Either make the ability have a short 4m range, or lengthen cooldown time on it! A 4 second mez should not be on a 15 sec cooldown with a 30m range!

 

 

 

UNDER-PERFORMING CLASSES THAT NEED ADJUSTED:

 

 

1. Merc Healer:

 

This healer doesn't manage AE damage as well as the other two, but with the above changes it wouldn't matter. The main issue this class suffers from is lack of ability to deal with focused damage. It needs a way to break out of combat and force a switch when focused, as both other healers get.

 

If this doesn't happen, then the class needs to have even better innate defensives to deal with the constant barrage of never-ending damage they receive. Propulsion should automatically give the healing merc immunity to leaps, interupts and CC for 6 seconds. Making the merc have to choose this as a choice in their top tier of utilities is redundant because, NO ONE will pick it as there are WAY more important choices that have to be picked instead!

 

An alternative way would be to create a new ability; after propulsion some sort of overload shield is thrown up and absorbs all damage for 8 seconds and renders the merc immune to all CC (similar to god-bubble that sorcs get).

 

 

2. Lethality Operative:

 

This class has the most retarded dot-spread mechanic in the game. The dots hit like wet noodles and it's burst takes too long to set up and hits like a pillow. Needs more hitting power, either on it's burst or make it's dots actually hurt!

 

 

3. Lightning Sorc:

 

This dps needs better burst, period. When a healer can simply ignore it's burst and continue healing others as well as themselves while this dps targets them, you know it's weak. Just bump up it's burst please.

 

 

4. IO Merc:

 

Having the second most retarded dot-spreading mechanic in the game, this class has potential to be decent. The problem is, it really has an ability bloat imo. You have to load up so many dots to get all your procs rolling and all your damages moving that you end up out of power after one complete rotation!

 

Maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but this class runs out of power so fast, and to spread it's dots, too many other abilities have to be layered to maximize their damage before dot-spread can even be started. It's just very clunky, and needs to be redone, the whole damaging system of this class is bad.

 

 

5. Pyro PT:

 

I have to admit, my experience of playing this spec is nil. I only can speak from the perspective of fighting them, but it's pretty obvious they are underperforming because I can't tell you one player that plays this spec in PVP and makes an impression on me. They seem to have no burst, and no survivability. Others could give better feedback on what exactly they need.

 

 

6. Virulence Sniper:

 

This class was in a good spot prior to 4.0, after that, their dots hit like wet noodles and their burst with cull is utterly pathetic. Totally unplayable in PVP now, complete garbage and gutted for no reason!

 

I agree with most of this with a few reservations....lightning is fine, just have to know how to set up the burst. Its counterpart, telekinesis is fine too. I/O isn't a pvp spec. Not saying it can't work, just that it's set up to be a PVE raid spec and is known to put out HUGE sustained dps if you can handle the heat generation. Scoundrel healers should be in the 2nd list--they almost as sad as PTs are stupid.