NvrShoutNvr Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Now that we're well into 4.0 and the parsing leaders are well established, I think it's time to address just how low Sorcs/Sages are parsing in comparison to the other classes. According to Goblin_Lackey's DPS rankings, Madness/Balance and Lightning/TK are parsing 13/18 and 15/18 respectively. My own findings back up these claims as well. As Madness I've been unable to break 6.7, and Lightning seems to be well behind. Below are my proposed changes to put the class in a better spot, but not totally breaking it. Madness: Increase Creeping Terror/Sever force damage by 5% Increase Affliction/Weaken Mind damage by 5% Increase Demolish/Vanquish damage by 5% Increase the total amount of Death Mark/Force suppression stacks by 5 To compensate, Pestilence/Abundant Justice continues to spread the DoT abilities as it does now on live, but at a reduced damage rate. My recommendation is Terror/Sever Force and Affliction/Weaken Mind now do 60-70% of the base damage to targets they're spread to using Pestilence/Abundant Justice. These changes will give Madness/Balance a much needed single target buff, but not be so over the top in terms of AoE damage and PvP. Lightning: Revert Reverberating Force back to its original Stat boost of 30% critical bonus damage to Chain Lightning, Lightning Flash, Crushing Darkness, and Thundering Blast. There was absolutely no reason to nerf it in the first place. With Recklessness in it's current state of not granting the extra 60% crit to Thundering Blast, I don't see any reason why this can't happen. Reduce the cooldown of Lightning Flash by 3 seconds. Reduce the cooldown rate of Lightning Storm by 3 seconds. Forked Darkness: Increase the chance of Crushing Darkness ticking twice by an additional 25% Fulgurous Fortification: Change this, replace this, do something with it. Every other spec in the game got a direct damage boost with their 64 Passive, Lightning definitely got the shaft with this one. It needs to go. Comments, questions, and concerns are encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HungGaKungFuDUDE Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Spot on my friend. It makes no sense to have a glass cannon class which is certainly glass but far less cannon than it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 just giving back what was taken from lightning, other than the OP force storm obviously, would go a long way. (forked lightning and darkness back to 30/30 chance/damage, LF cd back to 12 (so damn clunky now and I keep having to delay recklessness waiting for it to align with an LS proc) and Reverbating back up to 20 or 30% (30% might be a bit much with new crit values. Lightning storm proc imo is fine as it is. Changing 6 piece bonus as well to something more useful (DF/leech and LF supercritical comes to mind) would make jumping in the new set worthwhile. and before releasing please make sure its fine and not over the top which would bring ANOTHER nerfbat on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 A few quick comments for thought. These changes are in the right direction. Madness: - Not convinced whether AFF/CT need to be touched as for pvp the strength of the spec is to put sustained pressure. Proposed changes are gonna break this + would be hard to track which dot is primary and which one is spread. - Rest proposals are fine. - Madness rotation past the first few gcds is currently incredibly boring. Lightning strike must be investigated when used with wrath proc. Needs to do more damage and needs to cost less. Either directly affected or via lightning burns. Could also offer some further procs like reduces the cd of CD by 0.5s. Lightning: - The changes to reverbating force and how reck works with the affected abilities has been a mystery since 4.0 hit. Most certainly for all the abilities except TB should be reverted back. TB has to be examined separately. - Also bring back the force lightning proc which used to reduce the channeling time to half. For both: - Make shock useful to both disciplines or to one of them (would prefer it in madness which currently is less mobile than ling) cause currently it approximates the usefulness of a saber strike attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawabonga Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 We can't even get bugs fixed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalthanar Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Although I am firmly with you on changes, what needs to be taken into account is that the issues with a Sorc/Sage seem to fall into the bracket of PvE only. I have no problems in PvP and so any changes to improve PvE performance will impact in PvP significantly. Not to defend Bioware but the fix may not be as simple as it appears to us. Edited November 25, 2015 by Dalthanar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatmanworlds Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 you get caught by a jug or step within range of a sniper in pvp your insta dead, and most jugs can cleanse through madness dots sorcs are always primary in pvp purely because they are so easy to kill if they get pinned down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalthanar Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 sorcs are always primary in pvp purely because they are so easy to kill if they get pinned down. As are snipers and mara's and mercs and PT's and pretty much anything dependant on the situation at the time. The point I am making is that PvP is not as scripted as PvE, PvP can have good days and bad days and performance is never constant. All in all PvP at the moment appears to be reasonably balanced, others will argue, but in any given WZ any class can be on top. I am playing devils advocate really, and I don't like that because I am appearing to defend the low lives that gimped my favourite class. PvPers whine more than PvEers in general and so Biowares nerf most likely came of the back of the Sorc/Sage's dominance (too strong maybe) in PvP in 3.0. And that's why they are probably not addressing the issue that has been constructively raised many times in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malake Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Lightning Strike (and because of that Lightning Bolt since it is an improved version) should both have increased damage. It is intended to be used in the rotation but because the damage is so low it turns out it simply isn't worth it. Phase Walk should never have been given to sorcs/sages. The damage they are capable of needs to be capped because of their power in PvP, so they shouldn't have added what is primarily a PvP ability. Is it too late to remove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 A few quick comments for thought. These changes are in the right direction. Madness: - Not convinced whether AFF/CT need to be touched as for pvp the strength of the spec is to put sustained pressure. Proposed changes are gonna break this + would be hard to track which dot is primary and which one is spread. - Rest proposals are fine. - Madness rotation past the first few gcds is currently incredibly boring. Lightning strike must be investigated when used with wrath proc. Needs to do more damage and needs to cost less. Either directly affected or via lightning burns. Could also offer some further procs like reduces the cd of CD by 0.5s. Lightning: - The changes to reverbating force and how reck works with the affected abilities has been a mystery since 4.0 hit. Most certainly for all the abilities except TB should be reverted back. TB has to be examined separately. - Also bring back the force lightning proc which used to reduce the channeling time to half. For both: - Make shock useful to both disciplines or to one of them (would prefer it in madness which currently is less mobile than ling) cause currently it approximates the usefulness of a saber strike attack. All this^ imo shock could could be attached to the devour talent for madness while lighting could have it attached to forked lighting that way the skillfull utility could bring it up to 50% proc rate for a total of 50% on the extra shock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howdor Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 A few quick comments for thought. These changes are in the right direction. Madness: - Not convinced whether AFF/CT need to be touched as for pvp the strength of the spec is to put sustained pressure. Proposed changes are gonna break this + would be hard to track which dot is primary and which one is spread. - Rest proposals are fine. - Madness rotation past the first few gcds is currently incredibly boring. Lightning strike must be investigated when used with wrath proc. Needs to do more damage and needs to cost less. Either directly affected or via lightning burns. Could also offer some further procs like reduces the cd of CD by 0.5s. Lightning: - The changes to reverbating force and how reck works with the affected abilities has been a mystery since 4.0 hit. Most certainly for all the abilities except TB should be reverted back. TB has to be examined separately. - Also bring back the force lightning proc which used to reduce the channeling time to half. For both: - Make shock useful to both disciplines or to one of them (would prefer it in madness which currently is less mobile than ling) cause currently it approximates the usefulness of a saber strike attack. +1 i epecially like the idea of a LS under 4 wrath stacks doing more dmg or costing less force, becasue a stated before there really is no incentive to using it other than convenience, i could alo maybe a higher chance to proc lightning burns when LS is used, using a stack system capping at maybe 4 stacks? ( similar to energy lodes). As for the lightning changes ive been harking for it to be reverted for a while haha, but i honestly doubt they will touch seeing as the spec it self is a enigma of misguided intentions. Seeing as i honestly dont know what the devs honestly WANT the lightning spec to be ( atm its a "burst", sustain hybrid). S i will be patiently waiting the day when they take the time to actually examine the class ( especially TB) and maybe get an answer for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 As are snipers and mara's and mercs and PT's and pretty much anything dependant on the situation at the time. The point I am making is that PvP is not as scripted as PvE, PvP can have good days and bad days and performance is never constant. All in all PvP at the moment appears to be reasonably balanced, others will argue, but in any given WZ any class can be on top. I am playing devils advocate really, and I don't like that because I am appearing to defend the low lives that gimped my favourite class. PvPers whine more than PvEers in general and so Biowares nerf most likely came of the back of the Sorc/Sage's dominance (too strong maybe) in PvP in 3.0. And that's why they are probably not addressing the issue that has been constructively raised many times in this forum. I don't recall being that OP in PvP. Certainly in 3.0 my lightning sorc was finally worth something on its own, but pvp whiners being mostly FoTM class players that cannot stand the idea of steamrolling something... It was powerful, due to the capacity to burst, as the spec should be, and it had good mobility. But mostly if it wasn't for marauder taking a dip in 3.0 I didn't feel my sorc to be as powerful has they've been. An assassin getting the drop on you would make short work out of you, PT had stupid burst, and it was vulnerable to los and the biggest burst came once minute, not rotationnaly. If you saw a lightning sorc hit polarity shift and just stayed there without countering with tactics or a defensive cooldown, how is that a sorc issue? The overall nerf to mobility, higher health pools, and cooldown based burst and defense imo should not prevent the damage boost to make sorc OP in PvP. Simply it shouldn't be easy to melt a sorc like it was in 2.0, I found it wasn't that FoTM for pvp. just fun but plenty of other class where just as good and some an hard counter to sorc. They were just less played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluttoh Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Lightning Strike (and because of that Lightning Bolt since it is an improved version) should both have increased damage. It is intended to be used in the rotation but because the damage is so low it turns out it simply isn't worth it. Phase Walk should never have been given to sorcs/sages. The damage they are capable of needs to be capped because of their power in PvP, so they shouldn't have added what is primarily a PvP ability. Is it too late to remove it? Ya, I only use phase walk in pvp, useless for pve. This thread helped me understand why my lightning sorc feels so feeble in pve now. Ty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howdor Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Ya, I only use phase walk in pvp, useless for pve. This thread helped me understand why my lightning sorc feels so feeble in pve now. Ty yea god forbid we out parse AP pts again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NvrShoutNvr Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 pt's are back for good, thinking about re-rolling fr srs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howdor Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 pt's are back for good, thinking about re-rolling fr srs haha i did, never did less work for so much dps in my life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 pt's are back for good, thinking about re-rolling fr srs Wouldn't say that tbh. Fairly sure next big patch will have a nerfbat for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaytrine Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Wouldn't say that tbh. Fairly sure next big patch will have a nerfbat for them. PTs have been OP since 3.0. I wouldn't count on it. It maybe 6.0 when we see the nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howdor Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 pts will never be nerfed, they arent strong enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NvrShoutNvr Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 pts will never be nerfed, they arent strong enough our prayers have been answered boys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatmanworlds Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 so much for asking for a buff when everyone else gets nerfed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) unless I read the datamining wrong, they're nerfing sorc's thrash. OMG what shall we do? Seriously tough, I'm curious about what the surge reduction effect will have on the current dps ranking, but imo sorc could still use a bit of loving. Since 10% seems to be the new crit limit, thats fine, stay as it is, but I'd say giving back LS CD at 12s and proc damage to 30% (even if you leave the chance at 25%) would just bring it back in line with what will be the other burst spec ranged dps sustained around. Ow and fix TB not getting surge boost from reck already if you insist on keeping that 6 pc set bonus. Thats for lightning which is my spec. Madness also need a bit of checking to be brough around merc IO's dps, while lightning should be at arsenal level. MM Should outparse both by a small margin due to the lack of mobility tough. Edited December 7, 2015 by verfallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 unless I read the datamining wrong, they're nerfing sorc's thrash. OMG what shall we do? Seriously tough, I'm curious about what the surge reduction effect will have on the current dps ranking, but imo sorc could still use a bit of loving. Since 10% seems to be the new crit limit, thats fine, stay as it is, but I'd say giving back LS CD at 12s and proc damage to 30% (even if you leave the chance at 25%) would just bring it back in line with what will be the other burst spec ranged dps sustained around. Ow and fix TB not getting surge boost from reck already if you insist on keeping that 6 pc set bonus. Thats for lightning which is my spec. Madness also need a bit of checking to be brough around merc IO's dps, while lightning should be at arsenal level. MM Should outparse both by a small margin due to the lack of mobility tough. On that note, you realise it looks like they're taking 30% off everyone except mercs. It's going from universal damage perk to merc specific, specifically arsenal with HSM 6pc autocrit. IO no one cares about Mag Shot critting because its not nearly as punchy as HSM. Wonder if they're leaving it to give mercs a niche of extra bursty ranged damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalthanar Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 On that note, you realise it looks like they're taking 30% off everyone except mercs. It's going from universal damage perk to merc specific, specifically arsenal with HSM 6pc autocrit. IO no one cares about Mag Shot critting because its not nearly as punchy as HSM. Wonder if they're leaving it to give mercs a niche of extra bursty ranged damage. That, my friend, is wishful thinking, you have more chance of the dataminers being 100% correct and that they just didn't miss the Merc nerf than you have of Bioware not smashing the bat over your tin can heads Unless Bioware just missed them through incompetence....hmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Unless Bioware just missed them through incompetence....hmmmm... 3 words about last few weeks and competence: Stack of Gifts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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