FerkWork Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Disclaimer: Personally I am indifferent to buff then nerf of Comps. While I can understand why people are upset, I want to point out since seeing all these finger pointing threads that "whiners or People wanting a challenge" (Dependong on your PoV) ruined comps is mostly wrong. That and it makes the community quite toxic. Whether you are for against BW did not make a decision by tallying the number of threads Here is there criteria on how they made the decision Ultimately, this decision came down to our own goals for Companions, along with data on how they were performing. What we saw in those instances is that Companions, simply put, were just way too good. So it comes down to their vision of how the Expac and game itself should play which they gauge the validity via their data. Yes the metrics we like to belittle all the time but I digress since BW states here that they use it as the main tool. Now this is BW vision of comps In KotFE, with a large focus on going back to story, we wanted to make sure that all of our story content was accessible to all of our players. The power that Companions bring to the table, definitely played a part in that accessibility. Companions, from a combat perspective, should complement and provide support to your character, not overshadow them. However, in looking at how strong Companions are, we may have gone a bit too far in that direction. Simply put, while playing through much of the game, there are a lot of situations in regular combat where it is practically impossible for you to be killed if you have a healing Companion. Although this can be fun for a time, this wasn’t our goal.Companions should be strong, they should fill any role you need, but they should not make your actual gameplay be overshadowed by how strong they are. As you can see their goal is stated here. While you may or may not personally disagree with that view. their data showed that their view wasn't being fulfilled. This is the reason not whining or defending or whatever. What matters for BW is their data and their vision of the game to all customers and potential ones. Now whether the nerf is too extreme and contradicts the part of comps being valuable support is an issue that BW will also decide with data on adjusting if they deem it so. This view that forum posts are deciding things is a toxic ones as it makes people view others as not only opposed but also perceived as the ones taking away and causing the things. Which isn't true at all. So be Civil, and to paraphrase Drew Carey, "Welcome to Swtor Forums, where the posts are made up and opinions don't matter." TLDR: 1 person rambles about how even his opinion doesn't matter. Uses fancy quotes but lack of dank memes. A not satirical thread from me Ayy lmao Edited November 18, 2015 by FerkWork
SamAnders Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Yeah ultimately customer opinion matters more than the devs, anyway. Plus they had designed the companions to be what they were before this patch. All on them.
LordArtemis Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 I think the OP is correct. Though the complaints may have illuminated the issue, I don't think the changes were made due to the complaints. I think it is more likely they made the changes, launched the changes, then tested the changes when they saw some feedback that suggested companions were OP. After testing they found that was the case and made adjustments. The problem is Bioware and this "ready, fire, aim" style of game development they are engaging in.
Xhelis Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 I do take issue with part of argument presented. It's fine if it's their vision. It's their game they can do whatever they feel like doing with it. The issue I have is that comp just didn't magically get stronger last week, It's very obvious from the start of early access they were strong. If they are wanting to nerf them now for the sake of their "Vision" then that's just poor decision making on their end. They knew they were OP. I think they knew that after a few weeks they would nerf them. Once they had the largest portion of money come into the game. It's a little tinfoilish but really makes sense.
hadoken Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 It'd be more believable if it didn't take a month to implement with 0 communication on it until the day before (conveniently after the data leaked).
Leklor Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 I've learned a long time ago, let's say March 2012, to disregard any use of "Artistic Integrity" as an excuse by Bioware to justify *********** everything up. However, as some posters stated above, the issue is, ultimately, that they released the companions in the state they were in, kept silent for several weeks, gorged in on the subs that were gained through this (Face it, it's not the "Challenge Seekers" crowd that subbed with the release of KOTFE, it's the story/casual crowd) then suddenly declared it wasn't what they intended, nerfed them into the ground and expect everyone to just like that and smile. You know why I wouldn't have complained if KOTFE had been released with companions in a 4.0.2 state? Because I would have left before. I wouldn't have played it, plain and simple.
Themanthatisi Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Disclaimer: Personally I am indifferent to buff then nerf of Comps. While I can understand why people are upset, I want to point out since seeing all these finger pointing threads that "whiners or People wanting a challenge" (Dependong on your PoV) ruined comps is mostly wrong. That and it makes the community quite toxic. Whether you are for against BW did not make a decision by tallying the number of threads Here is there criteria on how they made the decision So it comes down to their vision of how the Expac and game itself should play which they gauge the validity via their data. Yes the metrics we like to belittle all the time but I digress since BW states here that they use it as the main tool. Now this is BW vision of comps As you can see their goal is stated here. While you personally disagree with that view. their data showed that their view wasn't being fulfilled. This is the reason not whining or defending or whatever. What matters for BW is their data and their vision of the game to all customers and potential ones. Now whether the nerf is too extreme and contradicts the part of comps being valuable support is an issue that BW will also decide with data on adjusting if they deem it so. This view that forum posts are deciding things is a toxic ones as it makes people view others as not only opposed but also perceived as the ones taking away and causing the things. Which isn't true at all. So be Civil, and to paraphrase Drew Carey, "Welcome to Swtor Forums, where the posts are made up and opinions don't matter." TLDR: 1 person rambles about how even his opinion doesn't matter. Uses fancy quotes but lack of dank memes. A not satirical thread from me Ayy lmao AWESOME POST! Thank you for trying to help on this matter. I am not even close to being an elite player, and think comps were way too OP. the problem I see is BW took too long to address it and spoiled the casuals... Any person that played this game for any length of time, knows, companions are still strong and there is no problem with the nerf.
FerkWork Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 I do take issue with part of argument presented. It's fine if it's their vision. It's their game they can do whatever they feel like doing with it. The issue I have is that comp just didn't magically get stronger last week, It's very obvious from the start of early access they were strong. If they are wanting to nerf them now for the sake of their "Vision" then that's just poor decision making on their end. They knew they were OP. I think they knew that after a few weeks they would nerf them. Once they had the largest portion of money come into the game. It's a little tinfoilish but really makes sense. Maybe BW waited till all the data and players were in so they could make a decision. I do not know for sure. Is this good or bad for the game as a whole? I dunno as that's not my point, but BW thinks it's necessary hence their decision.
SamAnders Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Still strong? They're not even as good as they were before 4.0.
Sakeri Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 It's their game and they can manage it how they want. However, in my opinion, they went overboard. So, it's my choice to respond in the only way I think they care about and that's with my $$$. I'm personally saddened by the way this was handled (definition of insanity comes to mind: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result). Where incremental adjustments would've been a good way to go, they practically nerf it into the ground. Same thing with the slots. Yes, I think changes were needed, but making changes that severe without apparent concern for the player base... well... no point discussing it really, since they're not going to change because people are upset. For those that aren't upset, have fun - no begrudgement here.
Zem_ Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 The order of events here is really unfortunate. Would anyone be complaining, I wonder, if the companions had been introduced at the 4.0.2. levels back in 4.0? Because for the most part isn't the game a LOT more soloable now, even after the nerfs? Or is the problem that between not being able to over-level and min-max companion gear, certain things aren't soloable anymore that used to be soloable pre-4.0? Honest question, since I wasn't around for a lot of that.
Vember Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) It'd be more believable if it didn't take a month to implement with 0 communication on it until the day before (conveniently after the data leaked). This. The whole thing stinks of preplanning. Honestly, I'd rather just have pre 4.0 companions back. Edited November 18, 2015 by Vember
FerkWork Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 I think the OP is correct. Though the complaints may have illuminated the issue, I don't think the changes were made due to the complaints. I think it is more likely they made the changes, launched the changes, then tested the changes when they saw some feedback that suggested companions were OP. After testing they found that was the case and made adjustments. The problem is Bioware and this "ready, fire, aim" style of game development they are engaging in. I think we like to make the issues more personal because we're humans by making it like comps were decided by a Duel of the Fates on the forums complete with singing. Rather actually for BW we are still important. Not as keyboard warriors (Should be an Ingame achievement ) but rather as data. Take that as is. There blanket style is troubling but I cannot say it's full effects are. Then again that falls outside the box of this post.
FerkWork Posted November 18, 2015 Author Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) AWESOME POST! Thank you for trying to help on this matter. I am not even close to being an elite player, and think comps were way too OP. the problem I see is BW took too long to address it and spoiled the casuals... Any person that played this game for any length of time, knows, companions are still strong and there is no problem with the nerf. Thanks but, I have zero personal opinion on this. And I'm not Nostradamus So I cannot predict it's full effects. My post is only to illuminate their rational and dispel the notion that we decided this by forum posting. That and it paints the other side as rivals making this place even more toxic Edited November 18, 2015 by FerkWork
Leklor Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 The order of events here is really unfortunate. Would anyone be complaining, I wonder, if the companions had been introduced at the 4.0.2. levels back in 4.0? Because for the most part isn't the game a LOT more soloable now, even after the nerfs? Or is the problem that between not being able to over-level and min-max companion gear, certain things aren't soloable anymore that used to be soloable pre-4.0? Honest question, since I wasn't around for a lot of that. I wouldn't. I'd have stopped playing if they had made their intentions clear (Having all companions totally suck, and Influence Rank barely matter, no matter the patch).
iacon Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) I would say this is a rational response to things and based on things that have been posted rather than hearsay. The reduction was quite noticeable and there were a few times where I had to pay close attention to the fight in order to succeed. In a couple of instances I failed in which case I had to try something different to win. It is definitely not something you can do while trying to multitask. I might have the tv or something going on in the background, but that is white noise and I am hardly paying attention to it. If there is something else that needs my attention I will pause the game to take care of it then resume rather than try to do both at the same time. In all honesty I don't see any of that as inherently bad and even in the case where I died I was still enjoying myself. It was never the case where I died over and over and over with no chance of finishing the way some of the flashpoints and operations sometimes feel. Was the level of reduction too much? Possibly, but that is something that the developers will have to work out based on whatever criteria they use to make those decisions. I would say it would not hurt to adjust things to make the reduction not as severe. I did notice that at a certain point when both my companion and myself were low on hp, my companion stopped healing. That is something that might need examining because it seemed to be not working as intended. Edited November 18, 2015 by iacon
HankMurphy Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 I think we like to make the issues more personal because we're humans by making it like comps were decided by a Duel of the Fates on the forums complete with singing. Rather actually for BW we are still important. Not as keyboard warriors (Should be an Ingame achievement ) but rather as data. Take that as is. There blanket style is troubling but I cannot say it's full effects are. Then again that falls outside the box of this post. I think we like to make the issues more personal because people invest a considerable amount of time and money into this hobby (gaming). And when a company gives you the run around, baits-and-switchs, is seemingly inept, nearly silent but claims to be sincere in wanting your continued support.... somewhere along the way you just say "wow, your company sucks so bad that it just managed to piss me off and ruin what would have otherwise been a great day off work" (well not totally ruined, I built 3 settlements in fallout!) They did a crappy thing, didn't communicate it at all... yanking the rug out from under their players. That's called practicing bad business. They deserve to have their communications channels filled with people like me. It's literally the least they should expect. (I'd happily accept a refund on the remainder of my sub time, but of course they dont do that) Games should be balanced. But when you advertise and sell someone on an experience and then smash it with a hammer a month later with NO communication (they didn't even have the guts to provide actual or rough numbers for the nerfs in their patch notes!! THEY KNEW what they were doing) ... that's bad business. Part of me really thinks its possible they didn't just yank the rug out from under their customers after selling them one experience and then NOT ONCE communicating a possible change in winds until a month down the later patch hot drop (which they also failed miserably at). Not that all of that alone isn't enough. Part of me thinks some executive thought it would be lovely that just after spending all my money on swtor, it would be a great time for me stop liking that game and go buy a copy of Battle Front (which will never happen). A bit tinfoil, but how am I supposed to draw any conclusions when, like I said, they designed the system and then sold it to us and let us use it for a month before being all "lol j/k, heres 70% nerf, kbye" And this isn't the first horrible experience i've had with the people at EA/Bioware. Not by a long shot. It's like they have a company rule that if you succeed in any way, you have to find a way to make your customers regret having ever CONSIDERED doing business with you in the first place.
Shwarzchild Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 I do take issue with part of argument presented. It's fine if it's their vision. It's their game they can do whatever they feel like doing with it. The issue I have is that comp just didn't magically get stronger last week, It's very obvious from the start of early access they were strong. If they are wanting to nerf them now for the sake of their "Vision" then that's just poor decision making on their end. They knew they were OP. I think they knew that after a few weeks they would nerf them. Once they had the largest portion of money come into the game. It's a little tinfoilish but really makes sense. This isn't entirely true. Statistical analysis isn't something that can be whipped together in a day. In order to capture a representative sample they needed time to compile data. They then needed time to develop a solution to what they found from the data. Then, they had to test it, and then deploy it. All of that takes time. Time for discovery. Time for testing the hypothesis, and time to deploy the solution. Frankly, I'm more surprised they were able to go from discovery to implementation as fast as they did since they aren't known for moving quickly on things.
SamAnders Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 This isn't entirely true. Statistical analysis isn't something that can be whipped together in a day. In order to capture a representative sample they needed time to compile data. They then needed time to develop a solution to what they found from the data. Then, they had to test it, and then deploy it. All of that takes time. Time for discovery. Time for testing the hypothesis, and time to deploy the solution. Frankly, I'm more surprised they were able to go from discovery to implementation as fast as they did since they aren't known for moving quickly on things. The reality is they probably didn't analyze jack ****.
Shwarzchild Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 . They did communicate. They actually gave a quite in depth explanation for why they were changing companions. Giving numbers doesn't change the thought process behind it. As a community we need to know things like the philosophy behind a change, or what not. We got that. Getting access to the raw data side isn't the important part of the equation for us.
Leklor Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) This isn't entirely true. Statistical analysis isn't something that can be whipped together in a day. In order to capture a representative sample they needed time to compile data. They then needed time to develop a solution to what they found from the data. Then, they had to test it, and then deploy it. All of that takes time. Time for discovery. Time for testing the hypothesis, and time to deploy the solution. Frankly, I'm more surprised they were able to go from discovery to implementation as fast as they did since they aren't known for moving quickly on things. Please, don't even give us that. The companions in 4.0 were overpowered (And I was fine with that) and you don't need statistical analysis to see that. A single competent QA tester can tell you this. And they should have tell us "We're still tinkering with companions, expect changes.". But they didn't. They let us fool around for a month, get hyped up and all. Then nerfhammer once the money is in their pocket. Well, I suppose joke's on them. My sub expires in 9 days as it was taken before KOTFE. Not falling for Bioware's "Artistic Integrity" again. They did communicate. They actually gave a quite in depth explanation for why they were changing companions. Giving numbers doesn't change the thought process behind it. As a community we need to know things like the philosophy behind a change, or what not. We got that. Getting access to the raw data side isn't the important part of the equation for us. Yeah they did. Less than 24 hours before patching. When dataminers leaked the news. They kept silent for three whole weeks. The situations with companions was obvious to me as soon as I logged into KOTFE, with Kira being nearly 3x as strong as before. Yet you are telling me they needed to analyse anything when they developed the damn game? Edited November 18, 2015 by Leklor
denavin Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Thanks but, I have zero personal opinion on this. And I'm not Nostradamus So I cannot predict it's full effects. My post is only to illuminate their rational and dispel the notion that we decided this by forum posting. That and it paints the other side as rivals making this place even more toxic Here is a bit of ratonal you seemd to have missed from Eric: Absolutely! It certainly may be a bit more challenging than before but you can complete them. The intent is that you can complete any [Heroic 2] with your Companion counting as one of the two. If you find this isn't true for any Heroics tomorrow, let us know. -eric It would seem the the intention was to make the game so one COULD solo the Herioc 2 content.
Shwarzchild Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 The reality is they probably didn't analyze jack ****. I hardly believe you can prove that. That's just emotion breaking through which is fine. But, at some point people need to step back and look at things without letting their emotions cloud judgement and rational thought.
Shwarzchild Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Here is a bit of ratonal you seemd to have missed from Eric: It would seem the the intention was to make the game so one COULD solo the Herioc 2 content. You still can solo all the heroic 2 content. So Eric's comment wasn't wrong or misplaced. What I've found is that some players are going for higher level heroics (maybe for achievements I have no idea what their motivation for doing so is) With the change it's shown that they can't really do it. The nice thing is there's a ton and I mean a ton of heroic 2s from starter planet up to like Hoth that can be completed right now without any issue what so ever. I found that the difficulty started getting higher on Voss. Before Voss though, they are virtually the same as before.
Brayla_Sana Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 This isn't entirely true. Statistical analysis isn't something that can be whipped together in a day. In order to capture a representative sample they needed time to compile data. They then needed time to develop a solution to what they found from the data. Then, they had to test it, and then deploy it. All of that takes time. Time for discovery. Time for testing the hypothesis, and time to deploy the solution. Frankly, I'm more surprised they were able to go from discovery to implementation as fast as they did since they aren't known for moving quickly on things. Which is why you need to put this crap on a test server and launch it BEFORE the expansion. I am more upset about the quality of service than anything else. Compile your data on a friggin test server!
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