Elitism and Operations

[peter_plankskull]

Yesterday I ran through a SM GF, and as expected at times during GF SM ops, inconveniences and differences in opinions can happen. Most of the run went okay and literally virtually nothing was said throughout most of the entire op until the 4th boss. I there on stated that my last experience here was less than successful and I would like a refresher on tactics, and the following responses follow:

 

Off tank: Dulfy the mechs

Gunslinger DPS: NEVER overlap circles

Elitist: don't stand in stupid, always attack behind the boss, follow raid group, if you want anymore info dulfy the mechs, it takes 5 mins

Me: Can I please, seriously, get a actual rundown on tactics for this boss?

Raid leader: This is year old SM group content, you should know all the mechs by now.

 

From there on RL does a RC and we pull. Everything goes okay until master shows up and I start to goof. I then stand in stupid, which is 85% of the area, and then accidently run into master resorting to a death. Thankfully, even though they didn't really tell me anything, they are well aware of the mechs and finish the boss. While on our way to the final boss, this long, drawn out, back and forth convo goes on because the adds give us 0 trouble.

 

Elitist: What a moron, I told you all the mechs and you still F up.

Me: You told me a incredibly vague description of what to do which was virtually non helpful. It would be nice to take a few minutes to actually explain what to do next time.

Elitist: F off. Your a underserving moron who demands us to explain mechs.

Raid Leader: This is a SM OPERATION, if you want to learn the mechs then you should get your guild to do it.

Me: We, as a community, should help each other, not just us for your own benefits ( RIP grammar, was attacking mobs.)

Elitist : F off.

Me: You must have attitude problems if your this mad for someone trying to ask for mechs

Elitist: F off. Your a underserving moron who is crap at this game and demands tactics.

Raid leader: get your (my guilds name) to run this if you want to learn how to do it

Me: I shouldn't have to run with my guild to learn all the mechs, as a community were suppose to help each other at times without personal benefit.

Elitist: F off.

Me: So you cant say anything constructive or have a meaningful actual response to this argument, so you just say F off every time because you cant think of anything better?

Elitist: F off, what argument?

 

Well we finally reach the boss and, as expected of me, I ask the mechs. The responses this time were thankfully less vulgar, but no less constrictive and im simply told the kill order. We RC it up, and surprisingly, this boss is actually pretty easy, and everything goes smooth until Cortani takes off and we have to go through the door. Well we enter the door... and... it resets. Someone brings up that if you have a pet out, then it resets. I honestly was half expecting to be accused of using the pet, which I did not, and I simply state that although I didn't use a pet, that would be useful to mention, even as a refresher. I however, get no responses, we RC, and things go south this time around.

I didn't see it but the Raid leader dies to a AOE, which is also our healer, so rez instantly. I could of taken the time to take a stab at the Raid leader, but I do not, however, I do not even receive a thank you. So we go on.. everyone is eating up the AOE, and Cortani retreats, and only the bird is alive. Admitably last time I did DPS the bird down to half before going to Cortani since I confused the kill order and then scrolled up, and swapped, but this time the bird was full at 100%. Not soon after do we lose 3/4 of our DPS and the bird goes down, I being one of the DPS. So our off tank accidently triggers the door as the elitist and RL spam DO NOT TOUCH DOOR, and the following conversation proceeds.

 

Off tank: Oops, my bad lol

Elitist: What a moron

Raid leader: Retard

Gunslinger DPS: Leave one alive, LEAVE ONE ALIVE, LEAVE ONE ALIVE!!!!

Off tank: North one alive (kills "north one")

Elitist: Moron

 

At this time I get a rez and our raid leader, also our healer, AOE heals me putting me in combat. Once again, I could of taken a stab at the raider leader, but I do not, admitably at this time I still wish I did. Following conversation:

 

Me: your AOE heal just messed up my rez....

Off tank: Stop your AOE heals moron ( the one who opened the door which started this mistake first of all is now going to insult others!?!)

Gunslinger DPS: stealth rez please

Me: Anything notable in this fight?

Elitist: F off (notice how he is first to insult me, but when the RL does something wrong he does nothing)

Gunslinger DPS: fight is pretty simple, just pay attention to the red text when he grabs someone.

 

So here we are.. everyone finally alive and we commence the boss fight. Goes pretty smooth at first, 1st hostage situation goes okay, the second, of course is me, and I get killed. I am not familiar with this fight at all but at this time another DPS dies to a circle or something as he mentions it in chat. At this chaotic time our lovely off tank disconnects. I'm still not sure what to think of it as I usually friend people who disconnect to see when they log on if its just to get rid of group or what, but he didn't come on at all until the following day after this. It could of been a coincidence he just happens to quit right after 2 DPS die, or he could of just rage quit the entire day. and then once again another DPS goes down for whatever reason. Magically, or maybe through how easy this fight is, with 4/8 people alive we still kill the boss. The following conversation:

 

Gunslinger DPS: rez please.

Elitist: It auto rez moron.

 

Then the loot drops and we roll, at this time I am reading the codex you get from the last boss. After further review, and a talk with the guild master it turns out I only received the second highest roll, as once I got ejected from phase I panicked did not notice that someone else rolled slightly higher than me. Once the roll drops, the conversation follows:

 

Me: I apologize for my goof up on master and blaster, but overall, even though we have a difference in opinion, this was still a very good run and thank you for taking me.

Raid leader: Go away. Proceeds to kick me and rewards the drop to the winner

 

For whatever reason, maybe because the group leader quit before I was ejected, or something else, I stayed in the group. From there on out I get whispers from 2 other people telling me I did great during the run, and that not all groups are like this, basically support for what I said earlier. While I did leave on good ends with these 2, exchanging our thoughts and opinions which was actually almost completely in unison, such as everyone starts somewhere and needs to be shown the ropes, even in SM GF operations, and after lots of goodbyes, however I did not badger them on why they didn't support me earlier.

 

Now this may be a sob story to some, but I would like to hear your opinions.

 

Do you require people to know mechs in a completely random SM GF, however never previously state they "must know fights?"

 

Would you let vulgar language and insults be thrown across to another fellow group member, but however since you agree with there opinion, join in instead, or resolve it peacefully, only using any further actions if required?

 

If someone is being badgered by the raid leader and other group members, would you stand up for them and accept the consequences or wait till the end of the raid to support him to risk not having a lockout?

 

EDIT- IMPORTANT -After having a talk with the guild master, apparently, however, I did not receive the highest roll during the loot drop, and only received the 2nd highest. I was paying to much attention to the codex that I did not notice a second roll that was slightly higher than my original one. I apologize for my misconception. The guild master also apologized for the behavior shown by her guild mates, and was very polite about talking to me during the above story. Perhaps these people were simply having a off day or something personal was going on, and there are still chances that they don't always act like this. Maybe they do, maybe there don't, but certainly all of the guild is not like this, and more often likely polite. While some of the things said were rude, I admit after seeing comments in this thread that I at the least should of researched the mechs briefly and was selfish for not doing so.

Edited November 16, 2015 by peter_plankskull

[FlameYOL]

A Pitty They Treated You Like That,I For One I'm Always Helpful And Willing To Explain The Mechanics That I Know Of,My Advise Is,Put Them On Ignore List Report Them For Bad Behavior And Maybe Talk To Their GM About Their Behavior,I Wish You Luck On Your Next Raid.

[Cox_The_Beast]

I'm always ready to explain tactics when I actually get into an Op, if needed - not often, but at times I do like to try Ops, and oftentimes there are plenty of first timers.

 

That said, I also had ppl behave like the annoying sort you found in that group, most often against me for "Saying something", pretty much. My response was showing I was totally able to manage myself. Most of the times, those who behave like that have no clue how to play, they're just pretenders. So, that usually shuts them up.

 

Still, props to you for saying you needed explanations. Not everyone does, and most of the times when they don't it's cause for wipe after wipe. Keep it up.

[rantboi]

I don't mind if people don't know mechanics but they will only get minimal explanations, not a whole guide pasted in chat. just enough that they won't mess up the whole fight. If they want to know more about why they should stand in that spot and not over there or why the kill order is what it is, they can go read it after the op. It's rude to make everyone wait 5 minutes before every fight while someone explains you every little detail because you think you absolutely must know them but couldn't bother reading yourself before joining the operation. Edited November 15, 2015 by rantboi

[RikuvonDrake]

I don't wanna sound rude, but this "Elitist" guy is the only one that actually explains the tactics for you, not standing in stupid is basically colored circles, standing behind the boss prevents you from knock back and following the raid is generally a good idea.If you spent as much time reading about the different bossfights on dulfy as you did trying to argue with the raidmembers, you would have nailed all down the essential SM mechanics, trust me, it goes fast!

 

Additionally, there is no requirement at all for the community to teach you how to play, sure that is nice and helps but if there isn't anyone that wants to do it, you cannot demand that. As soon as you join the group, state that you don't know the tactics and during trash put /follow on someone and quickly go check on dulfy if none is willing to explain.

 

Just as there is no requirement for them to explain tactics to you, there is no requirement for you to read up on tactics before/during the instance, however both should be encouraged and you cannot really expect the first if you aren't ready to do the second.

 

Insults and similar is dealt with via the report feature, use it if you have been the target of such.

Edited November 15, 2015 by RikuvonDrake

[peter_plankskull]

I don't mind if people don't know mechanics but they will only get minimal explanations, not a whole guide pasted in chat. just enough that they won't mess up the whole fight. If they want to know more about why they should stand in that spot and not over there or why the kill order is what it is, they can go read it after the op. It's rude to make everyone wait 5 minutes before every fight while someone explains you every little detail because you absolutely must know them but couldn't bother reading yourself before joining the operation.

 

This is pretty much all that I wanted. Just a minimal explanation of the fights, but mostly what I got was insults or complete silence.

After further review, I do think I thought I was entitled for no reason. The reason why I don't dulfy it at first is because I like to see the environment and the boss with my own eyes at first, getting a taste of it through my point of view. I usually like to learn the mechs by having it told to me or after a few wipes as well, however, now, I do think this was a bit selfish looking at it now, and that I should of told the group earlier I was green. However, I did not once see a "must know fights" notification anywhere, so I wrongfully assumed the worst. However, there responses and what they did is, IMO, uncalled for and were better ways to handle it.

[peter_plankskull]

I don't wanna sound rude, but this "Elitist" guy is the only one that actually explains the tactics for you, not standing in stupid is basically colored circles, standing behind the boss prevents you from knock back and following the raid is generally a good idea.If you spent as much time reading about the different bossfights on dulfy as you did trying to argue with the raidmembers, you would have nailed all down the essential SM mechanics, trust me, it goes fast!

 

Additionally, there is no requirement at all for the community to teach you how to play, sure that is nice and helps but if there isn't anyone that wants to do it, you cannot demand that. As soon as you join the group, state that you don't know the tactics and during trash put /follow on someone and quickly go check on dulfy if none is willing to explain.

 

Just as there is no requirement for them to explain tactics to you, there is no requirement for you to read up on tactics before/during the instance, however both should be encouraged and you cannot really expect the first if you aren't ready to do the second.

 

Insults and similar is dealt with via the report feature, use it if you have been the target of such.

 

One day im going to have to look up a guide to mutli quote...

 

While it is true he did tell me what to do, it was incredibly vague. Saying to "not stand in stupid" when literally 85% of the area is covered in it, and on top of that you have to space out away from your teammates to avoid overlapping circles, is not helpful in the slightest, as that's only basic knowledge anyway for operations. While yes, being told to follow the group is okay, but its when you follow the wrong people that it causes problems. Unfortunately I was so confused throughout the fight I accidently followed the tank and another DPS, luckily for the other DPS, he got pulled by the sage out of trouble, for I was left for death.

 

As mentioned above, due to my fail in mutli quoting... is my reason for not resorting to dulfy, which again, is admitably selfish, but the responses I got were uncalled for, let alone the RL actions, which up to the point there was no notification of "must know fights," as we both assumed the worst. The raid leader assumed SM GF operations where people should know fights, and I assumed SM GF operations are the place to teach people. While people do have different opinions, I think we were both in the wrong of our actions.

 

I think this is what we have to change in gaming communities. We should welcome teaching new players, showing them the ropes, teaching them right and wrong, not tell them to "l2p" with insults or "dulfy it" when you can at least give the slightest explanation.

Edited November 15, 2015 by peter_plankskull

[RikuvonDrake]

While I admire your attitude and approach to new players and helping them in new operations (and all other places I guess), I need to repeat that there is no "community requirement" to do this. Everyone does what everyone wants, sure in a utopia that would be the case, but this is SWTOR and you cannot force people to follow your ideas.

 

Again, if you are unwilling to spend 2min to read basic tactics, don't expect people to spend 2min to explain tactics to you, some might, but far from everyone.

 

Edit: How to multi-quote, quote one post, copy the quote and go back to the thread, quote another post and then copy in the first quote into the post and you have two quotes you can answer in the same post.

Edited November 15, 2015 by RikuvonDrake

[AndoEyrune]

After skimming through the whole post, what i got was everyone overreacting. The elitists were being overly rude afterwards about you dying, but you should have taken two minutes to read a guide beforehand rather than demand you have the full fight explained ahead of time, which would have been a waste of time for almost everyone. If you plan on raiding, you should take responsibility for yourself, and skim over fights ahead of time. It'll make it easier for everyone. Edited November 15, 2015 by AndoEyrune

[FerkWork]

One day im going to have to look up a guide to mutli quote...

 

While it is true he did tell me what to do, it was incredibly vague. Saying to "not stand in stupid" when literally 85% of the area is covered in it, and on top of that you have to space out away from your teammates to avoid overlapping circles, is not helpful in the slightest, as that's only basic knowledge anyway for operations. While yes, being told to follow the group is okay, but its when you follow the wrong people that it causes problems. Unfortunately I was so confused throughout the fight I accidently followed the tank and another DPS, luckily for the other DPS, he got pulled by the sage out of trouble, for I was left for death.

 

As mentioned above, due to my fail in mutli quoting... is my reason for not resorting to dulfy, which again, is admitably selfish, but the responses I got were uncalled for, let alone the RL actions, which up to the point there was no notification of "must know fights," as we both assumed the worst. The raid leader assumed SM GF operations where people should know fights, and I assumed SM GF operations are the place to teach people. While people do have different opinions, I think we were both in the wrong of our actions.

 

I think this is what we have to change in gaming communities. We should welcome teaching new players, showing them the ropes, teaching them right and wrong, not tell them to "l2p" with insults or "dulfy it" when you can at least give the slightest explanation.

 

While it's noble to teach, it is still a multiplayer game where people balance their time, effort, and what not against others competing time and effort. For most GF is all about getting through. While it does sound selfish GF is designed for Ops for those who don't have time to raid leisurely or don't want to. Selfish on the surface but most are just casual players who have gotten by enough of the Ops through memorization and no little beyond it and don't want to "waste" their time. I say waste from their view while selfish perhaps, is assessing the value they place on their time. Now that is the average joe an example of this is the RL. The elitist are like PvE equivalent of regstars. Bad mouthing and harassment should be reported if you feel that it has gone to far. These people are looking for outlets of their aggression. These people exist in all games. Now while the RL would have been better of explaining a few things beforehand he is no way obligated to since BW doesn't mandate they do. That said Pugs are like learning to play soccer on a pick up team that is never the same, meets whenever, and plays different sports. Not the best learning environment. While I personally will explain every mechanic to you down to the last detail along with anecdotal stories because I like talking about this stuff, I won't do it at the expense of others so you will get a condensed version. If you are on JC my pub guild is offering training Ops for all to learn at their own pace.

 

TLDR: While your ideals are good, the reality is that GF isn't the right place since you have to balance others time and expectations against your in leu of BW making official rules.

 

[gabigool]

As someone who does a lot of pugs I have to say I think you were expecting too much help.

 

As much as you feel entitled to have total strangers teach you things they took their own time to learn, you have to be mindful of the fact that it took you more time to write the first paragraph of your post than it would have taken to google the mechanics.

 

I think it comes down to courtesy. Preferring to click "ready" when you have no idea what to do vs. spending 1 minute reading a brief fight description... seems pretty selfish to me. And while the "elitism" you experienced doesn't seem like fun, you have to be aware of why you're hearing it. It may not be deserved to such a degree, but if you're realistic, you'll have to admit that your choices leading up to it had a good chance of bringing such a reaction out.

 

It takes you less time to read a boss fight description than it does to screw up and cause a wipe. And it honestly takes less time to have you read it than it does to explain it. Which is more fair to the other 7 total strangers?

 

I think joining a pug you have a responsibility to at least show up with the bare threshold of knowledge required to not be the cause of multiple wipes.

 

As someone pointed out above - saying during trash "afk 1 min to review mechanics" is not something anyone is going to give you a hard time for, and it would suffice. Insisting you deserve to waste other people's time/credits for no other reason than you "want to see it before you learn about it" is just rude, because your definition of "seeing it" really means "cause other people to wipe on it". If you really can't grasp mechanics without seeing a fight, there are youtube videos.

 

Practically I know I pug with people constantly that have no idea what they are doing. So I know people do not do as I suggest above. But - when someone calls out others on the forums for not behaving in a manner they would prefer, I do need to take a moment to point out that the whole situation could have been avoided in the first place with a pathetically small degree of effort.

[JouerTue]

Gunslinger DPS: NEVER overlap circles

Elitist: don't stand in stupid, always attack behind the boss, follow raid group

 

this are all the tactics, the only things that i can think are saying if dps blaster or master first and that one dps/healer will take part of the master stacks, but that can be maneuvered by a tank alone..you overlooked it i think, their behaviour after was rude and childish, but nothing new for a pug..

[KeyboardNinja]

The depth of explanations and response to ignorance in pugs is a big part of a server community identity. Every server is a little different in this regard. Some are, by and large, extremely nice and will start with the concise explanation, expand to the detailed explanation, and generally display patience if you didn't understand the first time through. Others… not so much.

 

There is no community obligation to explain, though it certainly doesn't hurt. Insulting you and kicking you before loot was a major faux pas, and well worthy of reporting. The explanation stuff though… Your best bet, honestly, would be to do some research before pugging. It's just easier to have your own knowledge of how stuff works so that you aren't reliant on others. Not blaming you for failing to do that, but it would be advisable for next time.

[Noyjitat]

Exact reason why I haven't pugged or joined a new guild in quite sometime. I'm basically only playing with two friends I've known for years now.

[josephinec]

Usually when I get vague explanations of tactics, it's in a HM FP, not a story mode operation. Like I was told during an attempt on hard mode Tython that it was just higher health on bosses.

I think people are too much in a rush sometimes and get irritated if a) there's a first timer in the group and/or b) someone who hasn't done it in a while, or in that particular role before.

Yes, a lot of it did get nerfed, but people still need to play nice and be patient. Also, not everyone is a hardcore raider.

I do think it's rude that the leader booted OP even after they apologized. I apologized for my first time tanking DF the other day and I think my group didn't make a huge issue of it, mainly because we cleared it in decent time. And my co-tank had more issues than I any way.

 

Edit: this is also why I have yet to do The Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice. Most of the time, at least with TOS, people on the fleet almost always ask "must have cleared Underlurker" or other boss.

Edited November 15, 2015 by josephinec

[peter_plankskull]

While I admire your attitude and approach to new players and helping them in new operations (and all other places I guess), I need to repeat that there is no "community requirement" to do this. Everyone does what everyone wants, sure in a utopia that would be the case, but this is SWTOR and you cannot force people to follow your ideas.

 

Again, if you are unwilling to spend 2min to read basic tactics, don't expect people to spend 2min to explain tactics to you, some might, but far from everyone.

 

Edit: How to multi-quote, quote one post, copy the quote and go back to the thread, quote another post and then copy in the first quote into the post and you have two quotes you can answer in the same post.

 

My first MMO was surprisingly a very helpful community, unfortunately I haven't been able to find one just like it, but I like to carry on what I learned from them. While yes, not everyone wants to teach new players, I however can and will do my best.

 

Fair point, as the ravagers was my last operation so now I can finally crack open a guide.

 

Thank you for teaching my how to multi post, now I can stop those double/triple posts.

 

After skimming through the whole post, what i got was everyone overreacting. The elitists were being overly rude afterwards about you dying, but you should have taken two minutes to read a guide beforehand rather than demand you have the full fight explained ahead of time, which would have been a waste of time for almost everyone. If you plan on raiding, you should take responsibility for yourself, and skim over fights ahead of time. It'll make it easier for everyone.

 

During most of the silence of the first few bosses, the RL got very fussy when someone went on a bio break, and already told us to hurry up even though we have yet to wipe or even have a single death. While I assume you are just using a hyperbole, I cant think of any other way to respond besides taking it seriously. I just wanted the bare minimum explanation of the fight, such as a general place to stand, not a full copy and pasted book. From now on, since ravagers was the last SM operation I needed to complete, I will be cracking open guides from now on.

 

-snip-

 

TLDR: While your ideals are good, the reality is that GF isn't the right place since you have to balance others time and expectations against your in leu of BW making official rules.

 

 

You bring up some very good points as well. I did not keep in mind of the other group mates when I went in with them. However, even a SM operation can take some time to complete, and as stated above RL was already rushing us even though we have being doing very well. While I guess that still doesn't excuse me not knowing the basics for the last 2 boss fights, it may still have some merit that people shouldn't rush operations, as these are suppose to be time consuming. While again, there may be no official rules for someone to tell them the mechs, that doesn't mean they cant, but again, it they aren't forced to. It all depends on the RL, which ill have to pick more carefully next time.

 

As someone who does a lot of pugs I have to say I think you were expecting too much help.

 

As much as you feel entitled to have total strangers teach you things they took their own time to learn, you have to be mindful of the fact that it took you more time to write the first paragraph of your post than it would have taken to google the mechanics.

 

As stated above, I admitted that I should of looked up a guide. While in my own personal opinion, I think SM GF pugging is the place to teach people and where to show the green people the ropes. I however think, regardless of our point of view, that if you want people to know fights, you should include it in your recruitment message or to ask at the start of the raid, not expect people to know every detail in a completely random group.

 

I think it comes down to courtesy. Preferring to click "ready" when you have no idea what to do vs. spending 1 minute reading a brief fight description... seems pretty selfish to me. And while the "elitism" you experienced doesn't seem like fun, you have to be aware of why you're hearing it. It may not be deserved to such a degree, but if you're realistic, you'll have to admit that your choices leading up to it had a good chance of bringing such a reaction out.

I think the same can be said about your point of view. While again, yes, admitably, I should of looked up a guide, it can take the RL, or at least someone in general, to take 1 minute to give a brief description of the fight. them expecting every pug in the galaxy to know fights where up to that point there was no notification to "know fights" beforehand. Having an attitude shown by the elitist is no way justifiable by any means. Telling someone to "f off" for every rebut is plain wrong, and then winning the final roll of the main boss drop, but since the RL had a difference in opinion, decides to kick me and hand down the equipment to the next person, when we all put our time and effort into completing the operation is once again, not justifiable. its not like I had no idea what to at all when I clicked the RC except for the last boss.... but again, a small explanation wouldn't hurt. While I wasn't familiar with the mechs, I still knew my classes rotation, when to use CDs, and came prepared with stims, adrenals, and medpacks. While yes, I didn't know the mechs, I still had the basics of the general game.

 

 

 

It takes you less time to read a boss fight description than it does to screw up and cause a wipe. And it honestly takes less time to have you read it than it does to explain it. Which is more fair to the other 7 total strangers?

 

While yes, again, a very good point brought up to you that I could of easily opened a guide, and AGAIN, admitting I should of, the same could be said about someone easily explaining the fights for everyone there. Would it be better for a single person to explain the mechs to everyone else, or would it be better for those 7 other people to look up the guide?

 

 

As someone pointed out above - saying during trash "afk 1 min to review mechanics" is not something anyone is going to give you a hard time for, and it would suffice. Insisting you deserve to waste other people's time/credits for no other reason than you "want to see it before you learn about it" is just rude, because your definition of "seeing it" really means "cause other people to wipe on it". If you really can't grasp mechanics without seeing a fight, there are youtube videos.

 

Feeling like a broken record now...

As stated above, the RL was already fussy about someone taking a bio break and telling us to hurry up when we have cleared, at the time, 2 bosses, with no wipes and not even a single death yet. Operations are suppose to take time and sometimes even wipes to understand the boss fights properly. Wanting a fast and easy run for a pug, one which the RL never specified to "know fights" is NOT going to happen, unless which surprisingly, we never wiped on the bosses, however we did have a total of 9 deaths. Cue the broken record. While AGAIN, I admit I should of opened a guide, Is it really that hard for a single person to explain the bare minimum of the fight, which maybe, at times, takes longer for them to look up a guide, especially if they have a slow computer.

 

 

 

Practically I know I pug with people constantly that have no idea what they are doing. So I know people do not do as I suggest above. But - when someone calls out others on the forums for not behaving in a manner they would prefer, I do need to take a moment to point out that the whole situation could have been avoided in the first place with a pathetically small degree of effort.

 

Lets use that entire conversation and point it toward the RL or elitist. They constantly barraged me with insults and went as far as kicking me to avoid giving me a piece of loot I should of received, for ME not simply playing how they wanted. While yes, 2 wrongs don't make a right, there is no actual rules on what to do before you enter operations, only more so guidelines. Depending on who your with, those guidelines may be bended or go as far as being changed. It would of helped this situation a lot of I simply opened a guide, someone told me the mechs, or simply the RL stating that I "must know fights." altogether.

 

Gunslinger DPS: NEVER overlap circles

Elitist: don't stand in stupid, always attack behind the boss, follow raid group

 

this are all the tactics, the only things that i can think are saying if dps blaster or master first and that one dps/healer will take part of the master stacks, but that can be maneuvered by a tank alone..you overlooked it i think, their behaviour after was rude and childish, but nothing new for a pug..

For the most part, the tactics may seem okay on paper, but imagine only ever briefly doing the fight before. I am a visual learner if anything, and I review back on pictures and stuff through my mind when learning. Reading text will only help so much with me, but usually, and hopefully, enough to take me through it. They could of specified where to stand, since literally, 85% of the area is covered in stupid. While yes.. I did follow people.. it ended up being the tank that's kiting the droid and another DPS who messed up as well... so it was a double whammy for me. While yes, they did have less than respectful attitudes, I admit, I was selfish, and beforehand, should of cracked open a guide. If we started to wipe, then, if the RL would let me, open up a guide to research the mechs, but thankfully even though some of the teammates had a difference in opinion, and rather rude ones, they still did the fight well for the most part.

 

The depth of explanations and response to ignorance in pugs is a big part of a server community identity. Every server is a little different in this regard. Some are, by and large, extremely nice and will start with the concise explanation, expand to the detailed explanation, and generally display patience if you didn't understand the first time through. Others… not so much.

 

There is no community obligation to explain, though it certainly doesn't hurt. Insulting you and kicking you before loot was a major faux pas, and well worthy of reporting. The explanation stuff though… Your best bet, honestly, would be to do some research before pugging. It's just easier to have your own knowledge of how stuff works so that you aren't reliant on others. Not blaming you for failing to do that, but it would be advisable for next time.

Very well thought out post, and a lot of truth to it. It depends on your team mates guidelines and how they react to situations, unfortunately these were ultimately some very nice people, and some rude ones, but I will not judge a entire server based on a few people.

 

Exact reason why I haven't pugged or joined a new guild in quite sometime. I'm basically only playing with two friends I've known for years now.

 

While yes, this run was rather awful and unfortunate, I can still remember plenty of laughs and enjoyable moments throughout other pug operations. Hopefully you have better experiences with others, and feel free to join a guild, there is surely some, or at least one that you will like. Don't be afraid to expand your list of friends either, as there is always people with a personality and mindset like your own.

 

 

Usually when I get vague explanations of tactics, it's in a HM FP, not a story mode operation. Like I was told during an attempt on hard mode Tython that it was just higher health on bosses.

I think people are too much in a rush sometimes and get irritated if a) there's a first timer in the group and/or b) someone who hasn't done it in a while, or in that particular role before.

Yes, a lot of it did get nerfed, but people still need to play nice and be patient. Also, not everyone is a hardcore raider.

I do think it's rude that the leader booted OP even after they apologized. I apologized for my first time tanking DF the other day and I think my group didn't make a huge issue of it, mainly because we cleared it in decent time. And my co-tank had more issues than I any way.

 

Edit: this is also why I have yet to do The Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice. Most of the time, at least with TOS, people on the fleet almost always ask "must have cleared Underlurker" or other boss.

It all depends on who you run with, and thankfully, for you, you had some nice teammates when you finished DF.

Besides a reset and slight inconvenience on the last 2 bosses, there was 0 wipes and overall the run went pretty quick due to the lack of communication throughout most of the raid.

 

Well that's an hour of my life ill never get back... admitably somewhat "fun" but... oh... more responses in all that time it took me to respond to the rest

Edited November 15, 2015 by peter_plankskull

[AndoEyrune]

During most of the silence of the first few bosses, the RL got very fussy when someone went on a bio break, and already told us to hurry up even though we have yet to wipe or even have a single death. While I assume you are just using a hyperbole, I cant think of any other way to respond besides taking it seriously. I just wanted the bare minimum explanation of the fight, such as a general place to stand, not a full copy and pasted book. From now on, since ravagers was the last SM operation I needed to complete, I will be cracking open guides from now on.

Knowing that the raid lead was extra fussy beforehand, i can even more see your side, which i was already on. I may have been harsh in my original response, and my post was more meant as advice for the future than anything else. The elitists were the ones truly in the wrong.

[Iffyluse]

The "elitist" had good points, just expressed them poorly.

 

It takes a couple of minutes to read the mechanics of the operation, there's loads of guides with pretty pictures for you to follow. It is really irritating when people show up to the operation blindly and expect to be pampered and carried through. There's other people involved in the op, it's not your private party, doing it through group finder and pug groups in general it is expected that you carry your own weight. I completely agree with the "elitist".

 

Your first operation run should be with your guild or at least after 5 minutes of reading the Dulfy guide for it and with you knowing how your class abilities work. Not just showing up and slowing everything and everyone down. You're incredibly selfish if you think that 7 people in the group who actually did all that should bend over for one guy.

 

Make excuses all you like, the fact is you came in without doing the bare minimum, you didn't do your part and you expect people around you to do everything for you instead. The first conversation in the OP post with the "elitist" and the "raid leader" made you look less credible than you think. Just being nice doesn't automatically put you in the right.

 

Why didn't you read up on the operation before doing it? If the answer is "I couldn't be arsed" then I rest my case.

 

P.S. You wrote in some post that GF SM ops is THE place for learning them. So wrong. It is quite possibly the last place for that. You get grouped up randomly with complete strangers, what makes you think it's the place to learn all the ropes? Joining a GF run means you now what you're doing, you just wanna get through it as smooth and quick as possible and then move on to your next alt.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Iffyluse

[NikSunrider]

My first ever raid in SWTOR was in PVP tank gear (as tank), I think it was an EV HM back at 55. Man it was a draaaaaag, and I do notice that most people an't explain mechs, but I always do if I can, having "been there, done that".

 

Having said that, there are lots of morons in queue. That is why I hardly-ever pug these days.

 

Hit me up if you want to exhange sob/horror stories.

[peter_plankskull]

Knowing that the raid lead was extra fussy beforehand, i can even more see your side, which i was already on. I may have been harsh in my original response, and my post was more meant as advice for the future than anything else. The elitists were the ones truly in the wrong.

 

I apologize if I came off in anyway other than positive or gave any hints in my post. I will take your advice of course, and by no means I considered your last post harsh.

 

The "elitist" had good points, just expressed them poorly.

 

It takes a couple of minutes to read the mechanics of the operation, there's loads of guides with pretty pictures for you to follow. It is really irritating when people show up to the operation blindly and expect to be pampered and carried through. There's other people involved in the op, it's not your private party, doing it through group finder and pug groups in general it is expected that you carry your own weight. I completely agree with the "elitist".

Ugh my original post got cut off so ill try me best to rephrase or just make a new statement.

 

Presentation when bringing up points means a lot. Having a attitude like his only insights angry, rage, and carelessness and has no positive or meaningful outcomes. Saying cue the broken record even sounds like a broken record now... but I admitted it was wrong for me to not read up mechs prior to joining the group and more on a previous post. I by no means showed up blindly, and wanted to be pampered and carried. I didn't sit in a corner and alt tab and watch cat videos while my teammates 7 manned it. I knew 3/5 of the fight prior to coming in, and roughly some of the 4th. I still have knowledge about my class, and came prepared with stims, adrenals, and medpacks, and at times, will lend them to others in need. Yes, your right, it isn't a private party so the RL shouldn't expect everyone to know fights unless specified in a recruitment message or during the start of the raid. Admitably, I did by no means carry my weight at the 4th boss, but even veterans make mistakes, and she goofed as well on the final boss, along with just about everyone else.

 

 

Your first operation run should be with your guild or at least after 5 minutes of reading the Dulfy guide for it and with you knowing how your class abilities work. Not just showing up and slowing everything and everyone down. You're incredibly selfish if you think that 7 people in the group who actually did all that should bend over for one guy.

 

Admitably, I do love my guild mates, but we are a very casual guild. None of us, even the usual raid leaders, one of them including me, has ran the 60 ops at all. I like to lead with visual experience when I first run a op. Read above for the 85 times about me apologizing for not researching a guide previously. Honestly, if you want a quick and easy run, then it should be done with your guild, or AT THE VERY LEAST, they should of specified somewhere to "must know fights." While yes, again, I admit I was selfish unfortunately due to at the time my philosophy, but it only takes a few minutes to explain the fight.

 

 

Make excuses all you like, the fact is you came in without doing the bare minimum, you didn't do your part and you expect people around you to do everything for you instead. The first conversation in the OP post with the "elitist" and the "raid leader" made you look less credible than you think. Just being nice doesn't automatically put you in the right.

Just because I couldn't run in with 100% knowledge beforehand on all the bosses, doesn't mean I didn't do the "bare minimum." I knew my class well, came prepared with items, and had the mechs for 3/5 of the bosses, and roughly a 4th out of 5 total. While yes, the elitist surely didn't deserve his new deemed title in the first post, he surely earned it in the following conversations with his attitude. While being nice doesn't make you correct, it may help to change some ones perspective, or at the very least, surely change it more than someone who is incredibly rude and has the mentality of a much younger aged person then he probably was.

 

 

.

 

Why didn't you read up on the operation before doing it? If the answer is "I couldn't be arsed" then I rest my case.

 

Mentioned above in a previous post, once again, unfortunately after further review selfish and not the best excuse, however no worse than someone expecting a random group to know fights without giving any notifications until that point.

 

 

P.S. You wrote in some post that GF SM ops is THE place for learning them. So wrong. It is quite possibly the last place for that. You get grouped up randomly with complete strangers, what makes you think it's the place to learn all the ropes? Joining a GF run means you now what you're doing, you just wanna get through it as smooth and quick as possible and then move on to your next alt.

 

As seen throughout the thread, no one person can truly deem the rules for SM GF operations. Wanting a completely quick and smooth run from random people is incredibly a elitist thing to state, and if they wanted a run like that they should of specified so previously.

Edited November 15, 2015 by peter_plankskull

[bdatt]

While it's always advisable to do your research before pugging, the community needs to decide if they want this game to ever see new operation content again. A first step would be to not be ******es to new players, players that recently came back and are rusty- basically anyone that may potentially run operations and give Bioware a financial incentive to create new operations.

[XORDYH]

Some people think you should read guides before showing up to a GF pug (I mostly agree).

 

Some people think it's incumbent on the raid lead to explain everything to new players (ignoring the fact that in a true GF pug, the raid lead is assigned randomly).

 

What about another approach: Bioware could put a basic explanation of the SM mechanics in the Codex or Tutorial panes. GF pugs aren't progression where things are kept secret for the thrill of the competition; let the game explain itself.

[GhOsTPrOz]

Yesterday I ran through a SM GF, and as expected at times during GF SM ops, inconveniences and differences in opinions can happen. Most of the run went okay and literally virtually nothing was said throughout most of the entire op until the 4th boss. I there on stated that my last experience here was less than successful and I would like a refresher on tactics, and the following responses follow:

 

Off tank: Dulfy the mechs

Gunslinger DPS: NEVER overlap circles

Elitist: don't stand in stupid, always attack behind the boss, follow raid group, if you want anymore info dulfy the mechs, it takes 5 mins

Me: Can I please, seriously, get a actual rundown on tactics for this boss?

Raid leader: This is year old SM group content, you should know all the mechs by now.

 

From there on RL does a RC and we pull. Everything goes okay until master shows up and I start to goof. I then stand in stupid, which is 85% of the area, and then accidently run into master resorting to a death. Thankfully, even though they didn't really tell me anything, they are well aware of the mechs and finish the boss. While on our way to the final boss, this long, drawn out, back and forth convo goes on because the adds give us 0 trouble.

 

Elitist: What a moron, I told you all the mechs and you still F up.

Me: You told me a incredibly vague description of what to do which was virtually non helpful. It would be nice to take a few minutes to actually explain what to do next time.

Elitist: F off. Your a underserving moron who demands us to explain mechs.

Raid Leader: This is a SM OPERATION, if you want to learn the mechs then you should get your guild to do it.

Me: We, as a community, should help each other, not just us for your own benefits ( RIP grammar, was attacking mobs.)

Elitist : F off.

Me: You must have attitude problems if your this mad for someone trying to ask for mechs

Elitist: F off. Your a underserving moron who is crap at this game and demands tactics.

Raid leader: get your (my guilds name) to run this if you want to learn how to do it

Me: I shouldn't have to run with my guild to learn all the mechs, as a community were suppose to help each other at times without personal benefit.

Elitist: F off.

Me: So you cant say anything constructive or have a meaningful actual response to this argument, so you just say F off every time because you cant think of anything better?

Elitist: F off, what argument?

 

Well we finally reach the boss and, as expected of me, I ask the mechs. The responses this time were thankfully less vulgar, but no less constrictive and im simply told the kill order. We RC it up, and surprisingly, this boss is actually pretty easy, and everything goes smooth until Cortani takes off and we have to go through the door. Well we enter the door... and... it resets. Someone brings up that if you have a pet out, then it resets. I honestly was half expecting to be accused of using the pet, which I did not, and I simply state that although I didn't use a pet, that would be useful to mention, even as a refresher. I however, get no responses, we RC, and things go south this time around.

I didn't see it but the Raid leader dies to a AOE, which is also our healer, so rez instantly. I could of taken the time to take a stab at the Raid leader, but I do not, however, I do not even receive a thank you. So we go on.. everyone is eating up the AOE, and Cortani retreats, and only the bird is alive. Admitably last time I did DPS the bird down to half before going to Cortani since I confused the kill order and then scrolled up, and swapped, but this time the bird was full at 100%. Not soon after do we lose 3/4 of our DPS and the bird goes down, I being one of the DPS. So our off tank accidently triggers the door as the elitist and RL spam DO NOT TOUCH DOOR, and the following conversation proceeds.

 

Off tank: Oops, my bad lol

Elitist: What a moron

Raid leader: Retard

Gunslinger DPS: Leave one alive, LEAVE ONE ALIVE, LEAVE ONE ALIVE!!!!

Off tank: North one alive (kills "north one")

Elitist: Moron

 

At this time I get a rez and our raid leader, also our healer, AOE heals me putting me in combat. Once again, I could of taken a stab at the raider leader, but I do not, admitably at this time I still wish I did. Following conversation:

 

Me: your AOE heal just messed up my rez....

Off tank: Stop your AOE heals moron ( the one who opened the door which started this mistake first of all is now going to insult others!?!)

Gunslinger DPS: stealth rez please

Me: Anything notable in this fight?

Elitist: F off (notice how he is first to insult me, but when the RL does something wrong he does nothing)

Gunslinger DPS: fight is pretty simple, just pay attention to the red text when he grabs someone.

 

So here we are.. everyone finally alive and we commence the boss fight. Goes pretty smooth at first, 1st hostage situation goes okay, the second, of course is me, and I get killed. I am not familiar with this fight at all but at this time another DPS dies to a circle or something as he mentions it in chat. At this chaotic time our lovely off tank disconnects. I'm still not sure what to think of it as I usually friend people who disconnect to see when they log on if its just to get rid of group or what, but he didn't come on at all until the following day after this. It could of been a coincidence he just happens to quit right after 2 DPS die, or he could of just rage quit the entire day. and then once again another DPS goes down for whatever reason. Magically, or maybe through how easy this fight is, with 4/8 people alive we still kill the boss. The following conversation:

 

Gunslinger DPS: rez please.

Elitist: It auto rez moron.

 

Then the loot drops and we roll, at this time I am reading the codex you get from the last boss. Surprisingly, I actually get the highest roll, and once again, the conversation follows:

 

Me: I apologize for my goof up on master and blaster, but overall, even though we have a difference in opinion, this was still a very good run and thank you for taking me.

Raid leader: Go away. Proceeds to kick me and rewards the drop to the next person in line.

 

For whatever reason, maybe because the group leader quit before I was ejected, or something else, I stayed in the group. From there on out I get whispers from 2 other people telling me I did great during the run, and that not all groups are like this, basically support for what I said earlier. While I did leave on good ends with these 2, exchanging our thoughts and opinions which was actually almost completely in unison, such as everyone starts somewhere and needs to be shown the ropes, even in SM GF operations, and after lots of goodbyes, however I did not badger them on why they didn't support me earlier.

 

Now this may be a sob story to some, but I would like to hear your opinions.

 

Do you require people to know mechs in a completely random SM GF, however never previously state they "must know fights?"

 

Would you let vulgar language and insults be thrown across to another fellow group member, but however since you agree with there opinion, join in instead, or resolve it peacefully, only using any further actions if required?

 

If someone is being badgered by the raid leader and other group members, would you stand up for them and accept the consequences or wait till the end of the raid to support him to risk not having a lockout?

 

That sucks, I bet that guy is not even a good raider most of us though we can be elitist ***** it's usually to each other newer players most people are nicer too, or in your case less expirienced. What server was this on? I reccomend The Ebon Hawk. We have a pretty nice community with relatively low drama there is some here and there but usually never in a raid, just the raid recruitment channel. Regardless where you are though you will occasionally get in with a bad bunch. Again sorry you got unlucky here hope your future runs go better.

[Nic__]

What it seems one of your big hang ups here is that it was never said "must know mechanics" while a fair point the unfortunate fact is it is assumed anyone joining a group for an operation knows the fights unless stated otherwise.

 

As was stated earlier GF SM ops are probably not the best place to learn an op that said it is doable, but always let them know the moment you join your new. Informing a group you are new at the start allows them to prepare explanations for bosses during trash. It also lets healers know they may need to keep an extra eye on you.

 

While I do understand where you are coming from about the visual learning and even wanting to see the ops blind (I was the same) if seeing them blind is a goal that needs to be a guild thing and can honest be quite fun. If you guys haven't seen the fights you have an opportunity most guilds don't currently, it is fresh content to you and most guilds would kill for that currently.

 

Tldr: Whatever place you decide to learn an op and in whatever manner always let a group know before you join if you don't know fights, don't tell a group you don't know a fight only once you get there. Most people don't mind and the smart ones save time by explaining during trash if they know an explanation will be needed.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Nic__

[GavinBail]

Yeah, this is why I don't do Operations. Too many people who will insult/kick you for not having done it before, which makes it really hard to get into. I used to try Queing for SM OPs, I got 4 pops, 3 of which kicked me before the run started when I admitted I hadn't run the content before.