The fairness in Preferred Status, or lack thereof.

[Gorrdan]

Played Wildstar recently. Those guys know how to do preferred correctly. It infact made me so happy that they valued me as a paying customer in past that i am going to spend some money on their cash shop every month now.

[Ghisallo]

I'm not at all convinced that stuff sells in any real volume. Of course I have no way of knowing, they have never said what sells or how much, and personal experience is not data.

 

Also keep in mind that many people may sub for a bit, build up the free CC, then buy those unlocks to use themselves, or sell on the GTN. Bioware didn't really get extra for them, since those CC were free.

 

 

 

Depends on the source of those items. Frankly, I don't think you're supporting the game nearly as much as you think you are. Yes, there is technically a way to play the game as preferred, but at some point you're just being cheap about it.

 

If you like the game, sub, if not, go play something else. Seriously.

 

Well here is the thing...regarding your first point. For the 2013 Calendar year SWTOR made $165 million. 139 million of that from f2p earnings (that is the last year I can find it broken down like that.) So the stuff on the Cartel market is clearly selling well. Next if you look at the many are on the GTN but that they still sel for a decent price, the law of supply and demand tells us there is certainly a good market for them because, at least the last time I checked, supply wasn't really an issue.

[Ghisallo]

Played Wildstar recently. Those guys know how to do preferred correctly. It infact made me so happy that they valued me as a paying customer in past that i am going to spend some money on their cash shop every month now.

 

There are two different theories on how to deal with this and really no way to make people happy. If you go to RIFT, there are constant complaints that Subscription doesn't give you an where near enough. Heck RIFT went so far as to rename it as "Patron" because they know the title "Subscriber" brings with it a certain idea of value for many people.

 

Wildstars, the last I checked, didn't have preferred btw. They have F2P and took a page from RIFT and renamed a subscription "signature". If this is still the case then you should be saying they did " f2p" right. However this is masking something. Wildstars HAD to do something COMPLETELY desperate to get players playing the game in the desperate hope they would pay. NCSoft is actually rare in the gaming world in that they come out and tell you specifically what each game makes for them (I assume this has to do with South Korea financial rules.).

From Q2 2014 to Q3 2015 Wildstars revenue dropped by 96%... Yes 96%.

 

So while you may say Wildstars is "doing it right" they had to try something radical. SWTOR during the same period with their "wrong" model well more than doubled Wildstars revenue.

 

Call me crazy but I want the game I play to make as much money as possible because it is the revenue that, in part, goes towards determing the budget. So more money = more/better game.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Ghisallo

[MaximusRex]

It's the only MMO that continues to lock content behind a pay wall.

 

Not even remotely true.

[LordArtemis]

Yes, this preferred system here continues to be one of the worst in the market. This is the single reason I have left this game all together for long periods, and avoided spending anything at all.

 

Instead I spent money on games that actually rewarded me for doing so.

[Ghisallo]

Yes, this preferred system here continues to be one of the worst in the market. This is the single reason I have left this game all together for long periods, and avoided spending anything at all.

 

Instead I spent money on games that actually rewarded me for doing so.

 

Well you are subscribing atm otherwise you could not post... Which means you are being rewarded for subscribing correct. As a matter of fact the simple fact we are conversing atm shows their model is accomplishing its purpose, you see a greater value in subscribing than you do being a preferred player. This means more money for BW and SWTOR and that is the entire point.

 

There is clearly a disconnect here. Every model people call better belongs to a game or a company in desperate straights. Wildstars was straight up desperate. The drop of Wildstars makes SWTORs drop at launch look down right "okay". Since they were not as desperate SWTOR could think almost exclusively about maximizing revenue.

 

I only play games I feel are worth a subscription. If preferred was a viable option for me I would actually be angry asking " what is the point of being a subscriber?" I don't expect to get a lot for free or a minimal one time fee, call me crazy.

[Ghisallo]

Play Wildstar. Whilst its not this game, it does not content any outdated restrictive pay walls. SWTOR claims to be f2p but only is for 'story' to level 50. Everything else is locked behind a pay wall. Bioware can't see the link between low population and pay walls.

 

It's the only MMO that continues to lock content behind a pay wall.

 

ESO requires non-subscribers to buy DLCs. Many other games, and I think ESO, have races behind pay walls. I could go on bit it seems like your idea is largely based on subjectivity in that what you value is behind a pay wall here where as what someone else might value is still behind a pay wall elsewhere.

[LordArtemis]

Well you are subscribing atm otherwise you could not post... Which means you are being rewarded for subscribing correct.

 

Correct.

As a matter of fact the simple fact we are conversing atm shows their model is accomplishing its purpose, you see a greater value in subscribing than you do being a preferred player.

 

Perhaps that is their model. Since you are not privy to this information, you are speculating. It is just as likely that they have simply set up the system the way they felt a system should be set up at the time, without any research.

 

This means more money for BW and SWTOR and that is the entire point.

 

Again, you are obviously speculating. It could also mean much less money for the company than they could be getting, especially when viewing market studies that say otherwise.

 

There is clearly a disconnect here. Every model people call better belongs to a game or a company in desperate straights. Wildstars was straight up desperate. The drop of Wildstars makes SWTORs drop at launch look down right "okay". Since they were not as desperate SWTOR could think almost exclusively about maximizing revenue.

 

One could also argue that Wildstar is a far INFERIOR GAME to SWTOR in many ways. Even with the best F2P system a bad game would only likely just hold on to survival.

 

I only play games I feel are worth a subscription. If preferred was a viable option for me I would actually be angry asking " what is the point of being a subscriber?" I don't expect to get a lot for free or a minimal one time fee, call me crazy.

 

And call me crazy, I believe the preferred system can be improved by ADDING items that would cost money and increase CONVENIENCE, not make it less likely to sub.

1) Remove bars from preferred and subscription benefits, as their very existence as premium items is one of the reasons the system is criticized.

 

2) Increase the amount preferred players can have before escrow.

 

3) Remove mailing restrictions between legacy characters only for preferred players.

 

IMO all of the other restrictions in place are healthy ones and promote subscription.

 

At the same time, they need to increase the appeal of being a subscriber. I would propose a monthly reward for every month you are a subscriber, like a decoration, mount or set of armor....veterans rewards.

 

I would also STRONGLY recommend they implement a regular way to earn CC in game, especially if you participate in less popular parts of the game, like PVP, GSF and Raiding.

[Ghisallo]

Correct.

 

 

Perhaps that is their model. Since you are not privy to this information, you are speculating. It is just as likely that they have simply set up the system the way they felt a system should be set up at the time, without any research.

 

Nope not speculating but rather 3 things. 1 asking the question WHY did they do it? 2. Then reading what the lead designer during the transition said during an interview this year...

Schubert also talked about the word "whale," saying nothing would make him happier than to see the industry do away with the disrespectful term entirely. As an alternative, he suggested "patrons," like wealthy lovers of the arts that will part with large sums of money so those works could be enjoyed by the masses.

 

"These people are very important, and we can start by treating them with some #$&%@ respect," Schubert said.

 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-03-03-star-wars-mmo-dev-calls-for-an-end-to-whales

 

So its clear they wanted to reward the "whales" who pay out more money because they are "patrons" who keep the game running.

 

Then looking at how much they have actually made which also kinda flies in the face of your alleging further speculation.

Again, you are obviously speculating. It could also mean much less money for the company than they could be getting, especially when viewing market studies that say otherwise.

 

Well I am not speculating, you are. As above I showed a sentiment of one of the designers of their model. Next if you look at only MMORPGs, SWTOR is one of the highest grossing MMO using such a hybrid model. In calendar year 2013) SWTOR made 165 million dollars, 139 million being from f2p micro transactions. That put them 3rd in the world in terms of microtransaction profits behind only Lineage I and WoW in the MMORPG world. In terms of total revenue it was number 4, just add TERA to the list.

 

In 2014, before the launch of SoR, again counting only MMORPGS and not MOBAS, it had already made 106 million dollars, which kept them in the number 4 MMORPG spot, with WoW, Lineage I and ESO (in its launch year) being the only games that beat them. In the earnings call for the quarter that included SoR the CFO stated that SWTOR had contributed to growth in their segment by attracting "many new players to the game". Since ESO started loosing ground in that same time frame it would not be unreasonable to deduce that SWTOR jumped to number 3 as they were only 6 million behind ESO prior to SoR launch.

 

So you can talk about how market research says their model should not be as successful but the real revenue ranking proves otherwise. What I have here is not mere speculation, it is conclusions based of evidence. Do I claim 100% accuracy? No BUT I have evidence specific to SWTOR upon which I base my conclusions. Unless you can present similar facts counter to my argument the one engaging in mere speculation is you.

 

In terms of rewards for subscribers they already exist in terms of Cartel Coins which, imo is preferable. As you can see from the article I linked their data mining shows that there is a fair amount of variability in terms of what kind of Cartel items people prefer. Giving the coins avoids people saying " what? Another stupid pet?" or what have you.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Ghisallo

[LordArtemis]

Nope not speculating but rather 3 things. 1 asking the question WHY did they do it? 2. Then reading what the lead designer during the transition said during an interview this year...

 

 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-03-03-star-wars-mmo-dev-calls-for-an-end-to-whales

 

So its clear they wanted to reward the "whales" who pay out more money because they are "patrons" who keep the game running.

 

Then looking at how much they have actually made which also kinda flies in the face of your alleging further speculation.

 

Unfortunately nothing you posted, nor quoted, proves your argument that you are privy to the reasoning behind the current design....therefore, unless you think me foolish, you have done nothing but prove you are speculating.

 

That does not mean you are not right...it only means you are doing the same thing everyone else is...simply offering your uninformed opinion.

 

That is likely all it is.

 

Well I am not speculating, you are.

 

Incorrect. You ARE speculating as I am.

As above I showed a sentiment of one of the designers of their model. Next if you look at only MMORPGs, SWTOR is one of the highest grossing MMO using such a hybrid model. In calendar year 2013) SWTOR made 165 million dollars, 139 million being from f2p micro transactions. That put them 3rd in the world in terms of microtransaction profits behind only Lineage I and WoW in the MMORPG world. In terms of total revenue it was number 4, just add TERA to the list.

 

You just proved my point. At NO point have they spoken to profits specifically from F2P process...NOT EVEN ONCE. Not in public statements, shareholder releases, etc.

 

They have spoken to revenue. YOU ARE SPECULATING AS TO PROFIT.

In 2014, before the launch of SoR, again counting only MMORPGS and not MOBAS, it had already made 106 million dollars, which kept them in the number 4 MMORPG spot, with WoW, Lineage I and ESO (in its launch year) being the only games that beat them. In the earnings call for the quarter that included SoR the CFO stated that SWTOR had contributed to growth in their segment by attracting "many new players to the game". Since ESO started loosing ground in that same time frame it would not be unreasonable to deduce that SWTOR jumped to number 3 as they were only 6 million behind ESO prior to SoR launch.

 

We are not speaking to the reason of your deduction. We are only speaking to the fact that you ARE MAKING A DEDUCTION. The reasononing of that deduction is up to others to decide.

 

Again, your assumptions could very well be correct....however, they are just that...assumptions.

 

So you can talk about how market research says their model should not be as successful but the real revenue ranking proves otherwise.

 

It proves nothing of the sort.

 

Logical fallacy. The revenue figures prove nothing above the overall revenue levels. What I have here is not mere speculation, it is conclusions based of evidence.

 

That is exactly what speculation is.

 

Do I claim 100% accuracy? No

 

I would disagree when you present your opinion as facts in argument against other opinions.

 

BUT I have evidence specific to SWTOR upon which I base my conclusions. Unless you can present similar facts counter to my argument the one engaging in mere speculation is you.

 

We are both engaging in speculation. You can choose to accept that or not, however you may find folks have trouble accepting your opinion if you present it as more informed than it actually is....which is what you are doing.

 

In terms of rewards for subscribers they already exist in terms of Cartel Coins which, imo is preferable. As you can see from the article I linked their data mining shows that there is a fair amount of variability in terms of what kind of Cartel items people prefer. Giving the coins avoids people saying " what? Another stupid pet?" or what have you.

 

Fair enough.

 

If you want Ghisallo, you are welcome to peruse my post history and read the extensive information I have posted based on the studies that deal directly with hybrid game models, analysis of SWTOR reports and revenue and conclusions based on that information....

 

I have already spoken extensively on this subject over the last three years in this forum. You are probably not aware of this since you have only likely been a forum member here since late last year.

 

NOTE....that is not meant as an endorsement of my ideas. Those ideas stand on their own merits, or lack thereof. It is, in the end, simply my opinion.

Edited November 10, 2015 by LordArtemis

[TX_Angel]

Well here is the thing...regarding your first point. For the 2013 Calendar year SWTOR made $165 million. 139 million of that from f2p earnings (that is the last year I can find it broken down like that.)

 

You need to go back and reread those numbers... If SWTOR only made $26 million from sub income in all of 2013, then that means they only averaged 144k subs per month... If that were the case, the game either would have gone completely F2P, or wouldn't be here at all. At $165 million from subs, it works out to 916k subs per month average, which is a much more believable number.

 

So the sub money was higher than the CM money.

[t-darko]

Preferred Status feels like one big hit in the stomach.

 

So after being a paying consumer at the supermarket for 2 years or so you think it's quite fair to do your usual shopping for free!?

 

The I, Me and Self of the Internet Generation is stunning . . .

Edited November 10, 2015 by t-darko

[richiesilva]

So after being a paying consumer at the supermarket for 2 years or so you think it's quite fair to do your usual shopping for free!?

 

The I, Me and Self of the Internet Generation is stunning . . .

 

What's stunning is some people's inability to read. Your supermarket analogy is dishonest at best, because, and having said this countless times, nobody is rallying for equality between subscribers and preferred status. Nobody. Did you even bother to read the post or did you just make some assumptions based on the very first sentence? Nevermind, I know the answer.

[LordArtemis]

Well, I think I have made my opinions clear on what I feel does not work in the F2P system here....unlike some of my other long time forum members here I think most of it works....just a few things I find a bit much.

 

They have, in fact, made some changes already that I felt needed to be done, like speeders at level one for all that are willing to pay for it, as well as speeders while moving (which, it seems, I was in the minority when I felt it should be a paid item).

 

I do not want these things given for free, nor do I want the subscription model to be less appealing....what I want is to remove the most common complaints about the system I have seen.....lack of normal mail between a players characters (mitigated now by legacy storage I must admit) and the extra bars. I always felt the extra bars was a silly thing to pay for.

[MoyaSP]

I think there should be a sliding scale to these things, or maybe some sort of veteran reward thing for being subscriber, rather than a boolean straight to preferred.. but then again, i also don't think no matter how much you sub, that you should be better off not subbing, there Needs to be incentive to sub over having subbed for a while or ages and then stopping, it is all just arguing about where the cut off should be, make it too close and people would just sub for enough to get the benefit of advanced preferred or whatever that would be the new system and never sub which gives nothing money wise.

 

At best would be some sort of system where if you have subbed for a long enough time, you can then get sub benefits from spending certain amount of money in the cartel market instead, just don't see any other way of making it possible to do. Nor do I see what a veteran system could provide that would make it worth still subbing

[Ghisallo]

You need to go back and reread those numbers... If SWTOR only made $26 million from sub income in all of 2013, then that means they only averaged 144k subs per month... If that were the case, the game either would have gone completely F2P, or wouldn't be here at all. At $165 million from subs, it works out to 916k subs per month average, which is a much more believable number.

 

So the sub money was higher than the CM money.

 

Ahhh BUT BW has also said that a majority of cartel market sales come from subscribers. These are the "whales, or as the dev would prefer called the "patrons" that make a game like this run.

 

This is what people really do not get. the VAST majority of players in a game like this pay NOTHING. The study hasn't been updated in a while but a bunch of statisticians got together and came up with the following formula. 89/10/1/

 

89% of players in a game like this pay nothing, 10% pay what is seen as the sub (the minimum buy in to have restrictions removed), 1% pays that subscription and THEN money hand over fist. It is that 1% that the companies rely upon to keep running. Here is an article from a few years ago that tries to put it into practice. http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/13/free-realms-guesstimating-monthly-revenue-using-the-89-10-1-rul/

Edited November 10, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Ghisallo]

Unfortunately nothing you posted, nor quoted, proves your argument that you are privy to the reasoning behind the current design....therefore, unless you think me foolish, you have done nothing but prove you are speculating.

 

That does not mean you are not right...it only means you are doing the same thing everyone else is...simply offering your uninformed opinion.

 

That is likely all it is.

 

So what you are saying is that one can not take observable data and come to an educated conclusion. The only way one can come to a conclusion is by being in the board room when the decision is made. Damn that is a convenient defense mechanism and in the face of such avoidance of the basic principles of reasoning.

 

Also if you note I did not say I was 100% definitely right What I said was based on the what the guy who was in the room said we can infer that there was definitely a sentiment where they wanted to reward those who are willing to the most money, to the point that they should not be referred to by what some would call a pejorative.

 

Then we look at the success of the model, which is counter to the alleged research you have yet to link. Mayhaps if you placed a single link to the research you alleged to exist we can continue. If not there is no point doing research, sharing links and then debating with someone who has routinely made claims with NO supporting evidence whatsoever. Especially since you do not know the definition of mere speculation...

 

from Websters

 

Speculation: ideas or guesses about something that is not known

 

Reasoning: the process of thinking about something in a logical way in order to form a conclusion or judgment

 

what I engaged in was reasoning. I took available information (statements, estimated earnings etc) and came to a conclusion. I even presented the evidence. On the other hand you just say, in essence, "if you weren't in the board room you could be wrong."

 

PS your method is the same method ancient alien theorists use to give validity as to why the pyramids are the product of Alien tech.

[Erasimus]

You need to go back and reread those numbers... If SWTOR only made $26 million from sub income in all of 2013, then that means they only averaged 144k subs per month... If that were the case, the game either would have gone completely F2P, or wouldn't be here at all. At $165 million from subs, it works out to 916k subs per month average, which is a much more believable number.

 

So the sub money was higher than the CM money.

 

That doesn't necessarily follow. I believe they've already stated that the majority of the CM sale comes from subscriber "whales", or words to that effect. It wouldn't surprise me if the average monthly sub numbers have been well below 200k for some time now. Especially since there was really no particular reason to stay subbed between content updates.

 

To continue the speculation it could well be the primary motivation behind the current changes. Certainly people will have to sub more to get all of the story updates and they may just decide that it is easier just to stay subbed.

 

I believe that it is quite likely that they didn't feel the previous format with a relatively small number of subscribers spending lots of money in the cartel market was sustainable going forward.

 

I came back for a few months to check out the changes. I'm not sure that I'll stay. I like level-sync, but don't like the lack of challenge for a casual player. But we'll see. I have a few months to make up my mind.

[Quraswren]

I don't see how giving away more stuff for free is going to get people to subscribe.

 

Thats because it doesn't.

This is nothing more than people wanting more for nothing. IT's just that simple. Why pay anything for a product if you can get them to give it to you for nothing as you enjoy it.

 

However, I do like to bargain so if I was BW, I would make a "PER character" unlock for coins that allows you to buy credit cap increases.

 

It would be a bit costly but at least you could do it if you really wanted to play and it would also hit the credti sellers for cash as well.. You have to pay something if you want the perks.

 

It's a f2P game which you can do and do a lot of. What SWTOR is not is a give it all away for free game.

[branmakmuffin]

Unless at preferred status they still feel like spending 10-15 dollars a month on the game, in which case...

In which case no one actually does that because if they did that, they would just subscribe.

[Belidos_Goveko]

It's the only MMO that continues to lock content behind a pay wall.

 

Have you played any other mmo's?

 

• LotRO : Only a certain amount of zones are free, all others you have to buy
  
• World of Warcraft: You have to subscribe and buy expansions
  
• The Secret World: You have to purchase each episode of new content
  
• Age of Conan: You have to buy 30 day passes to access certain zones, you also have to buy an expansion AND subscribe to access the expansion you just bought.
  
• Elder Scrolls Online: Each new content pack needs to be purchased
  

 

Need I list more?

[hadoken]

The thing is Bioware wasn't able to sustain itself on a Subscription only model. It wasn't making them enough money. By turning F2P/Preferred they doubled their Revenue stream. By alienating the F2P/Preferred players and making them leave they'll lose money. It's a careful balance of not pissing off either player base and trying to get even more people to play. I feel the biggest revenue for them isn't from Subscription but from the CM. Expand the player base and make buying from the CM even more attractive is likely the model Bioware is trying to go for right now.

 

I agree with that, but they have also said the majority of CM purchases come from subscribers.

 

I don't think F2P/Preferred is anything more than a taste to get people to subscribe. That's the intent, and I think that's what is working for them. Not trying to keep a bunch of freeloaders happy.

[branmakmuffin]

Have you played any other mmo's?

 

• LotRO : Only a certain amount of zones are free, all others you have to buy
  
• World of Warcraft: You have to subscribe and buy expansions
  
• The Secret World: You have to purchase each episode of new content
  
• Age of Conan: You have to buy 30 day passes to access certain zones, you also have to buy an expansion AND subscribe to access the expansion you just bought.
  
• Elder Scrolls Online: Each new content pack needs to be purchased
  

 

Need I list more?

I think you have demonstrated that it's wise to be wary of sweeping statements like "it's the only thing that does it this way."

[StarMagus]

I think you have demonstrated that it's wise to be wary of sweeping statements like "it's the only thing that does it this way."

 

No I think they demonstrated that the person making the statement that suggested SWTOR was the only mmo to lock content behind a pay wall had no clue what they were talking about.

[richiesilva]

I agree with that, but they have also said the majority of CM purchases come from subscribers.

 

I don't think F2P/Preferred is anything more than a taste to get people to subscribe. That's the intent, and I think that's what is working for them. Not trying to keep a bunch of freeloaders happy.

 

I think people are taking offence at an imaginary suggestion that PS should have the same content unlocked as a Sub, when in fact the issue at hand (at least presented by me), is Pref not getting enough, for what they may have contributed, [at least when] compared to a free-to-play player.

Edited November 10, 2015 by richiesilva