GeistTheWolf Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Been trying to do LFG flashpoints on some lowbie characters. Every single queue has either one or two healers and no tanks. Bioware does realize tanks exist for a reason I hope? Did they hope to speed up queues by not bothering to search for tanks? If so that's great, because I really wanted a fast queue for the FP that I now can't even do because I have no tank.
g_land Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Point of tactical is that there are no role requirements so you don't have to wait long periods for a low population role.
Golden_Archer Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Tacticals FPs are made without role demands. It doesn't find a tank, because there is no tanks avaliable, not because GF doesn't look for them. There're bunch of healing stations on every boss encounter in Tactical Flashpoints because of it as well. That's been made for even group of 4 dps to be able to gear up. Cuz most of the players are dps, next to no1 goes for tank or heal role this days
tcgtqu Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) Sounds like people are having a lot of trouble with tactical FPs. I don't get it, I have never failed to complete a tactical FP since 4.0, oh wait, probably because I am always the magical healing pony of the group... Edited November 3, 2015 by tcgtqu
Nero-Star Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I prefer tanking more fun. I can't heal for sh*t Only DPS I do is when tank is not an option like my sniper and I hate how squishy he is
NikSunrider Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Tanking is a thankless job. You make the slightest mistake, and you are ridiculed out of existance. You don't have a healer - you can't survie the damage you take. You don't have the DPS, because you are a tank, your group dies, ....you are blamed. You try to keep aggro on normal mobs, you die because your team can't kill stuff fast enough. Few people want to tank, so few people queue as one.
Nero-Star Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I can't say I completely agree with the thankless part. Plenty of occasions where I've been thanked both fps and ops I have also noticed when I tank in PvP more people are starting to look at protection, healing, and objectives scores. I have started to notice groups on fleet asking for 2 tanks and healers for ops
KendraP Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 You make the slightest mistake, and you are ridiculed out of existance. You don't have a healer - you can't survie the damage you take. You don't have the DPS, because you are a tank, your group dies, ....you are blamed. While these people are a minority, I would say that they are the reason I am so happy to have found a good guild. This was my first mmo so I first started tanking in the old SM FPs after reading guides/watching videos. Still any new player makes mistakes, and few are as serious as when a tank or healer makes mistakes. Now, I've gotten pretty good at it, and was looking into starting Ops, but horrors a group might have to slow down long enough to explain a fight! Like I've mentioned on the other forums, my only problem with the new tacticals is that they don't really give you a chance to learn your role. so i predict a lack of heals/tanks in the future. particularly decent ones. On topic, however, as everyone else has mentioned the tactical FPs require a group of any 4 players, not the normal 1 heals, 1 tank, 2 dps required by HM (and formerly by SM).
RayceUlrand Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I've been thanked as a tank ONE TIME during a Foundry run. The healer was just so used to **** tanks that she was surprised with me. I always try to thank my healers when they perform well, and a good tank as well.
Pellerinen Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Well, some of the tacticals are a nightmare to complete now, like, for example, Directive 7. It's not the boss fights that kill you, it's the mobs. We died on almost every pull because the 2-3 elites kill a 216 geared dps sage in 3 seconds. After a while, one of the group members quit, and I pulled out my companion to heal... after that it was doable, until the idiot group leader re-queued us enroute to the last boss, and we wiped on every mob again. But Mentor was a faceroll. Now, you might argue that, even for a tactical, we're supposed to cc some of the elites... which is perfectly true. Unfortunately, telling this to a level 50 sentinel whose first instinct is to throw his sabers or smash the first second he reaches the group, cc is kinda out of the question. Also, since his bolstered damage output is about 1,5k per second, he's likely dead before the add is.
Katahn Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Honestly when I queue for a FP if the pop doesn't include at least one tank and one healer I decline it, wait 5 minutes, and try requeueing. The original tacticals aren't bad with non-standard groups, but beyond that even when they are doable the level of effort they require is more than I care to invest. * I don't enjoy trying to get DPS best described as "crack-addled hummingbirds with ADHD" to slow down and understand what CC is and to intelligently apply it. I consider it a victory if they're even reading chat at all! * I don't enjoy having to cycle through my DCDs on my tank on trash pulls and still likely dying (which happens a lot as a newbie-level tank thrown into a formerly 40+ FP) * I don't enjoy having to fight with my group to let my tank heal up after trash fights (see the point above). And so forth. It just isn't worth it.
DawnAskham Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Honestly when I queue for a FP if the pop doesn't include at least one tank and one healer I decline it, wait 5 minutes, and try requeueing. The original tacticals aren't bad with non-standard groups, but beyond that even when they are doable the level of effort they require is more than I care to invest. * I don't enjoy trying to get DPS best described as "crack-addled hummingbirds with ADHD" to slow down and understand what CC is and to intelligently apply it. I consider it a victory if they're even reading chat at all! * I don't enjoy having to cycle through my DCDs on my tank on trash pulls and still likely dying (which happens a lot as a newbie-level tank thrown into a formerly 40+ FP) * I don't enjoy having to fight with my group to let my tank heal up after trash fights (see the point above). And so forth. It just isn't worth it. QFT, though for me if the pop doesn't show mostly higher levels with a healer, I decline (sorry, but getting a tank is far down on my list compared to getting higher level players and a healer). It just isn't worth the time and frustration to try and run some of the 'new' tacticals with a bunch of lowbie dps. Now if I could queue as two and use my companion, I wouldn't care at all about levels or roles in the group match.
Louks Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Bioware needs restore the holy trinity system urgently. The only ONE disadvantage of the old system was the waiting time, and that is NOT made up for this new non-class system which causes LOTS of wipes and frustration. I've always played tanks or healers, and I've always leveled them through flashpoints. Since 4.0 there is no sense in leveling a tank or a healer, because those classes are obviously less practical than a DPS class in other aspects of the game (PvP, soloing). The irony of this is having to read in chat how people demands me to respec as a tank when I'm playing my juggernaut as a DPS. 'Well, ask Bioware about this new fantastic group finder, not me...'
aerockyul Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I've been thanked as a tank ONE TIME during a Foundry run. The healer was just so used to **** tanks that she was surprised with me. I always try to thank my healers when they perform well, and a good tank as well. That was very likely me if you play on Harbinger. I go out of my way to thank good tanks with my healers. Sadly there are too many people who are far too happy to **** on tanks and healers for making mistakes but won't also recognize when they're doing well
KendraP Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I've always played tanks or healers, and I've always leveled them through flashpoints. Since 4.0 there is no sense in leveling a tank or a healer, because those classes are obviously less practical than a DPS class in other aspects of the game (PvP, soloing). This is exactly what i'm worried about lol. I like tanking, and sure there's still a purpose at endgame, but how will new players learn how to play the class without leveling as the spec? It worked for me (i'm not a veteran of WoW or any other mmo, i came from single player RPGs (KOTOR/Mass effect, among others). But I learned to enjoy tanking and the faster queues it provided. Now, i wonder why i bothered. It's not like i can do ops/HM FP, because I don't know the mechanics. And go into a pug HM without knowing the fights? I think i get booted enough from tacticals because they'd rather use a healing comp than have the "nuisance" of a tank. Yes that happened. They said I slowed them down too much by having to heal between fights.
Katahn Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 This is exactly what i'm worried about lol. I like tanking, and sure there's still a purpose at endgame, but how will new players learn how to play the class without leveling as the spec? It worked for me (i'm not a veteran of WoW or any other mmo, i came from single player RPGs (KOTOR/Mass effect, among others). But I learned to enjoy tanking and the faster queues it provided. Now, i wonder why i bothered. It's not like i can do ops/HM FP, because I don't know the mechanics. And go into a pug HM without knowing the fights? I think i get booted enough from tacticals because they'd rather use a healing comp than have the "nuisance" of a tank. Yes that happened. They said I slowed them down too much by having to heal between fights. As a tank it is pretty easy to solo heroics with a companion healer. Minus that and possibly tanking for a guild I'd have to say you have a valid point in wondering about even bothering to be a tank. Assuming a DPS can do the same (solo the Star Fortresses for example) the only reason to be a tank is if you're doing it for your guild or you feel like PUGing hardmodes. Not much reason to otherwise.
KendraP Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 As a tank it is pretty easy to solo heroics with a companion healer. Minus that and possibly tanking for a guild I'd have to say you have a valid point in wondering about even bothering to be a tank. Assuming a DPS can do the same (solo the Star Fortresses for example) the only reason to be a tank is if you're doing it for your guild or you feel like PUGing hardmodes. Not much reason to otherwise. True on the heroics, i was running them the other day and never dropped below about 80% health (and that only happened when I accidentally pulled 2 mobs). I haven't tried on my dps characters yet, but given how easy they were to solo and how little health I lost when playing properly, i'd say it should be entirely possible to solo heroics as a dps too (comp heals are crazy effective right now lol). And yeah, I'm on a guild hunt lol but I have to find one that's willing to teach ops/HM FP fight mechanics to a tank. Its sad, i enjoyed tanking the SM FPs in days of old.
Katahn Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 I basically play solo so the increased survivability is a real boon for me facing the Star Fortresses. My main tank character hasn't had much trouble soloing them (it just takes forever). Conversely my main healer has struggled (although that's getting easier as I get his favored companion's influence up - 18 and counting so far). I am reluctant to get involved in guilds because of their reliance on voice chatting. Neverminding the fact that my poor little computer can barely run the game as it is, I'd rather not have to deal with people talking over the cut scenes even if I have seen them before. I do miss running regular flashpoints though. Solo or not I always used to take tanking seriously and worked hard to view my role as "controlling the fights" versus being a high-durability DPS. Trying to run most of the current "tactical" flashpoints without someone to heal me is just asking for aggravation and if groups can do it with 3x DPS and a healer companion I don't really blame them for wanting to boot someone with low DPS (i.e. a tank) and substitute in a very effective healer in their place.
Aeneas_Falco Posted November 4, 2015 Posted November 4, 2015 Point of tactical is that there are no role requirements so you don't have to wait long periods for a low population role. In theory yes, but after the update tactical flashpoints aren't functioning the way they're intended to function. A lot of times now you do need the Holy Trinity setup because the slight difficulty bump. They are more like Storymode flashpoints rather than tacticals where you're role doesn't matter. Since the update I notice that when I go in with my Sage I'm healing 95% of the time to keep the team afloat. It doesn't bother me since I like healing, but if those runs had been paired with say another Sentinel instead of my Sage, there would have been some wipes.
KendraP Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 I do miss running regular flashpoints though. Solo or not I always used to take tanking seriously and worked hard to view my role as "controlling the fights" versus being a high-durability DPS. Trying to run most of the current "tactical" flashpoints without someone to heal me is just asking for aggravation and if groups can do it with 3x DPS and a healer companion I don't really blame them for wanting to boot someone with low DPS (i.e. a tank) and substitute in a very effective healer in their place. This in a nutshell. I take tanking seriously also, my job is to control the fight. But it's impossible to do that with the new tacticals and no healer. That being said, i'm a max level tank and the group that booted me was 3 DPS leveled between 15 and 25. I just want to feel useful again lol. I've devoted a lot of time to tanking (and learning to tank, since it was my first mmo) in this game, it's sad to see that effort wasted.
Floppyjo Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) I've said it before ... somewhere. Having no tank or no healer in a flashie is a joke. I'm not interested in armchair quarterbacking ... you don't have a healer you die, you don't have a tank, the healer gets threat and dies and then you die. This is the only MMO I play with a stupid broken normal instance tool/concept. Even with Kolto stations at bosses, you basically require a group of people to use their brains to use CC on trash pulls to prevent yourself from wiping. If you're not going to fix this, then maybe you should give each class the ability to spec heal and tank should the need arise. Edited November 5, 2015 by Floppyjo
Torvai Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 [...]you basically require a group of people to use their brains[..]. I'd like to say you're the first person who thinks it's bad game design that people need to use their brains. Sadly, you're not... Maybe enlighten us why it's such a bad thing?
Louks Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 The good thing about all this new group finder is that people is LFG in the chat, like the old good times, trying to assemble a group with tank, healer and DPS.
Halinalle Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) If healer dies because there's no tank... Well, that tells more about damage dealers than lack of tank. Of course in tacticals. Not in operations and hard mode flashpoints but damage point is valid there too. Edited November 5, 2015 by Halinalle
Failtima Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Well, some of the tacticals are a nightmare to complete now, like, for example, Directive 7. It's not the boss fights that kill you, it's the mobs. We died on almost every pull because the 2-3 elites kill a 216 geared dps sage in 3 seconds. After a while, one of the group members quit, and I pulled out my companion to heal... after that it was doable, until the idiot group leader re-queued us enroute to the last boss, and we wiped on every mob again. But Mentor was a faceroll. Now, you might argue that, even for a tactical, we're supposed to cc some of the elites... which is perfectly true. Unfortunately, telling this to a level 50 sentinel whose first instinct is to throw his sabers or smash the first second he reaches the group, cc is kinda out of the question. Also, since his bolstered damage output is about 1,5k per second, he's likely dead before the add is. Right off the bat I'll drag out a variation of L2P. As a 216 geared dps sage in queue groups of all dps toons I've burned down Directive 7 3 times so far with zero wipes at all post 4.0. The issue is NOT the lack of the trinity, but rather the 10 - 65 level range for tacticals post 4.0. One or more level 10's or other comparable low level group members in a queue group are a wipe waiting to happen. Even with the boost they're lacking alot of critical abilities. They don't yet have most of their key damage mitigation abilities, defensive abilities, big dps abilities, or big heals. Have a tactical group pop with a trinity, but the tank and healer are level 10 and odds are it's going to be a painful wipe fest. Have one pop with 4 dps, all in the 50 -65 range, and it's not a problem. The root problem of tacticals post 4.0 is not the lack of the trinity, it's the ridiculously big level range. Edited November 5, 2015 by Failtima
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