Just MY opinion...

[DarthCalame]

I love Star Wars and I don't mind that SWTOR is now more of an RPG than an MMO. That said, it's just TOO easy; I liken it to playing a game on EASY instead of HARD. Yes the story is great but there is absolutely NO challenge to staying alive now. You can literally use your attacks in any order you want (not the order you mastered to stay alive when fighting a boss) and not die.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is but if ALL I want is a good story, I will go read a Star Wars comic book...

[Djiini]

Rather have it be too easy than too tedious.

No, not too hard--this game was never 'hard' in the vanilla game, just tedious.

 

Roll a Sentinel/Marauder? Hope you like Doc/Quinn then, since the tank companions SUCKED, and I know how much the forum loves Quinn!

Edited November 3, 2015 by Djiini

[Eillack]

Let the lynching, begin...!

[ButtTheRipper]

Rather have it be too easy than too tedious.

No, not too hard--this game was never 'hard' in the vanilla game, just tedious.

 

Roll a Sentinel/Marauder? Hope you like Doc/Quinn then, since the tank companions SUCKED, and I know how much the forum loves Quinn!

 

So couldn't the companion changes be kept which would reduce the tediousness for you and still up the difficulty? It seems your main problem is that you couldn't choose whichever companion before to fulfill whatever role... which you can now... which is not related to difficulty

[Starleash]

Okay, I'm gonna pitch in, but you gotta read everything before jumping down my throat., OP

 

This is an MMO. MMOs are rarely tough (those that are usually have a limited number of players) so they can attract a larger number of people with varying skills.

 

That being said, there are still ways to make this a challenge. This is what happened to WoW in WotLK, and players came up with a few ways to keep things interesting. Ever heard of the ironman challenge?

 

Here are a few suggestions from me:

1. Level without a companion (except during conversations if you want to build influence for crafting and stuff)

2. Level with no gear

3. Level without learning new spells

4. Pull as many mobs as you can and see how long you last

 

Once again, I DO share your opinion somewhat, but as I said you can't typically expect MMO's to do anything about it.

[Djiini]

So couldn't the companion changes be kept which would reduce the tediousness for you and still up the difficulty? It seems your main problem is that you couldn't choose whichever companion before to fulfill whatever role... which you can now... which is not related to difficulty

 

Very true. I wouldn't terribly mind a nerf but I definitely don't want their numbers lowered to pre-4.0 levels. As usual, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

[ButtTheRipper]

Okay, I'm gonna pitch in, but you gotta read everything before jumping down my throat., OP

 

This is an MMO. MMOs are rarely tough (those that are usually have a limited number of players) so they can attract a larger number of people with varying skills.

 

That being said, there are still ways to make this a challenge. This is what happened to WoW in WotLK, and players came up with a few ways to keep things interesting. Ever heard of the ironman challenge?

 

Here are a few suggestions from me:

1. Level without a companion (except during conversations if you want to build influence for crafting and stuff)

2. Level with no gear

3. Level without learning new spells

4. Pull as many mobs as you can and see how long you last

 

Once again, I DO share your opinion somewhat, but as I said you can't typically expect MMO's to do anything about it.

Yeah but the fact that I have to make all those changes on my end so that the KotFE chapters don't play like the Walking Dead chapters is something I don't want from an MMO. Like seriously number 4 is laughable. Edit: I like doing number 4 but not as a way to make the game challenging... to me that's just an inclusive part of all MMO's.

Edited November 3, 2015 by ButtTheRipper

[Pagy]

there needs to be a balance between difficulty and not making things tedious.

 

as things stand now, you basically walk from point a to point b without risk. whether this is a problem or not is up to each individual.

[Swissbob]

Again, this whole issue of combat being "tedious" doesn't really support Bioware's change. If the majority of players and Bioware really think that combat is tedious, and boring, then it should've just been removed, not made easier.

 

No Combat= Makes people who find it "tedious" happy

Difficult Combat= Makes people who actually enjoy combat happy

 

But Insanely Easy Combat? It's like a half way solution that doesn't give either side what they really want.

 

I mean really.... I haven't seen anyone who is like "Watching C2-N2 defeat all the Sith for me is fun.... really class entertainment." I've only seen people who like the change because they find combat boring and thus having it over quicker and/or having they companions do it for them while they're doing something else is an improvement.

 

Here's what I think they should do:

Make the Default setting difficult, make it hard to win and therefore challenging and fun, and then for the people who just want to get to the next cut scene, they can turn on a "No Combat Mode" or something where the mobs don't aggro or something.

[DarthCalame]

Great replies from everyone so far...

 

Seems I'm not the only one that feels this way...

 

But even Borderlands, an RPG (and even Bioware has stated that SWTOR is more RPG than MMO now) has difficulty settings...

[DarthCalame]

Again, this whole issue of combat being "tedious" doesn't really support Bioware's change. If the majority of players and Bioware really think that combat is tedious, and boring, then it should've just been removed, not made easier.

 

No Combat= Makes people who find it "tedious" happy

Difficult Combat= Makes people who actually enjoy combat happy

 

But Insanely Easy Combat? It's like a half way solution that doesn't give either side what they really want.

 

I mean really.... I haven't seen anyone who is like "Watching C2-N2 defeat all the Sith for me is fun.... really class entertainment." I've only seen people who like the change because they find combat boring and thus having it over quicker and/or having they companions do it for them while they're doing something else is an improvement.

 

Here's what I think they should do:

Make the Default setting difficult, make it hard to win and therefore challenging and fun, and then for the people who just want to get to the next cut scene, they can turn on a "No Combat Mode" or something where the mobs don't aggro or something.

 

Great post and I agree totally with your solution, difficulty settings...

[Djiini]

Again, this whole issue of combat being "tedious" doesn't really support Bioware's change. If the majority of players and Bioware really think that combat is tedious, and boring, then it should've just been removed, not made easier.

 

No Combat= Makes people who find it "tedious" happy

Difficult Combat= Makes people who actually enjoy combat happy

 

But Insanely Easy Combat? It's like a half way solution that doesn't give either side what they really want.

 

I mean really.... I haven't seen anyone who is like "Watching C2-N2 defeat all the Sith for me is fun.... really class entertainment." I've only seen people who like the change because they find combat boring and thus having it over quicker and/or having they companions do it for them while they're doing something else is an improvement.

 

Here's what I think they should do:

Make the Default setting difficult, make it hard to win and therefore challenging and fun, and then for the people who just want to get to the next cut scene, they can turn on a "No Combat Mode" or something where the mobs don't aggro or something.

 

You proved pretty succinctly you don't understand the difference between hard and tedious here.

I'm gonna go.

[Jumajin]

Again, this whole issue of combat being "tedious" doesn't really support Bioware's change. If the majority of players and Bioware really think that combat is tedious, and boring, then it should've just been removed, not made easier.

 

No Combat= Makes people who find it "tedious" happy

Difficult Combat= Makes people who actually enjoy combat happy

 

But Insanely Easy Combat? It's like a half way solution that doesn't give either side what they really want.

 

I mean really.... I haven't seen anyone who is like "Watching C2-N2 defeat all the Sith for me is fun.... really class entertainment." I've only seen people who like the change because they find combat boring and thus having it over quicker and/or having they companions do it for them while they're doing something else is an improvement.

 

Here's what I think they should do:

Make the Default setting difficult, make it hard to win and therefore challenging and fun, and then for the people who just want to get to the next cut scene, they can turn on a "No Combat Mode" or something where the mobs don't aggro or something.

 

I'm going to be that guy in this thread.

 

Well, they did partially remove combat from KoTFE, because it sure felt like we did more choosing of options in lengthily and frequent cut scenes than actual game play.

[Jerqa]

I'm a wee bit torn on this...

 

On one hand I love MMO's and have been playing them as far back as the late 90's, starting with Ultima Online. I enjoy the grinds, I enjoy camping rare mobs for 8 hours, I like the longer travel times and no instant teleportation, I miss death penalties, raiding and so on... you get the idea.

 

On the other hand I love the story that this game has to offer. I always have and that is what attracted me to this game. I've been a Star Wars fan since the 70's when I grew up watching the movies and playing with the toys. KOTFE has done such an amazing job with the cut scenes and the story and I am absolutely loving it. It's frankly, amazing!

 

The game does seem like it is in easy mode now and that is ok with me as long as I am getting a great story. I don't think they will ever be able to blend the two together perfectly, but they have come pretty close. I'm enjoying it

[Swissbob]

You proved pretty succinctly you don't understand the difference between hard and tedious here.

I'm gonna go.

 

Seeing as how you left (instead of explaining yourself), you probably won't read but I'll post anyway cause others are still here.

 

See if you can follow my logic here:

-Tedious definition: too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous.

--What makes something seem too long and dull to people? How boring people find it.

---What makes something seem boring in a game? Well, to some people, if it's too easy (I know this because I'm one).

----What happens when you make easy content difficult to these people? It goes from tedious to fun.

------Thus, something can stop being tedious when it becomes hard.

 

However, there are also people who think the nature of combat is tedious regardless of its difficulty. That's why we present them with an option to skip combat (something they find tedious) altogether.

 

Are you really against giving the option for people who want to skip something boring to them, and making previously boring content fun for others?

 

What's your solution then, since you didn't seem to like mine? Just keep it how it is? Have basically all people bored with combat, but it's okay because it's over with faster than in vanilla?

 

Or do you not have a solution? I guess we'll never find out, because you left.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Swissbob

[DamenX]

I just came back since a few months after launch. The game is WAY to easy. Missions and lvl'n did not feel like this at launch. People keep saying combat is tedious .... well its tedious to me now because there is no challenge.

[Jadescythe]

You proved pretty succinctly you don't understand the difference between hard and tedious here.

I'm gonna go.

 

Tedious is pretty much the definition of KotFE gameplay. I'ts just a slog through trash mobs that do nothing to challenge you. I understand that players didn't enjoy having to regen after every fight, but every few fights seems like it would be fine. Or alternatively, they could just make the fights against elites feel meaningful. Maybe change the elites at the end of chapters to champions and make them hard enough to require more than basic attacks to kill.

 

Completely non-combat related, you could make some of the quests something other than walking to a destination through trash mobs. Maybe put in some puzzles to solve through conversations with NPCs or even make slight changes with choosing how to complete quests. Like the quest in chapter IV where you choose to help Lana or Koth first. Why not just have it all be one quest where you go out on your own to help them at your leisure rather than creating two linear paths with the choice of which to do first?

 

Make the gameplay enhance the story rather than just be there to extend the time it takes to complete it with no challenge or reward.

[ButtTheRipper]

See if you can follow my logic here:

-Tedious definition: too long, slow, or dull: tiresome or monotonous.

--What makes something seem too long and dull to people? How boring people find it.

---What makes something seem boring in a game? Well, to some people, if it's too easy (I know this because I'm one).

----What happens when you make easy content difficult to these people? It goes from tedious to fun.

------Thus, something can stop being tedious when it becomes hard.

 

However, there are also people who think the nature of combat is tedious regardless of its difficulty. That's why we present them with an option to skip combat (something they find tedious) altogether.

.

There is an option to skip pretty much all of the combat, it's called a speeder; really easy except for a few chokepoints. A no combat option would be ridiculous if skipping to cut scenes would increase lvl as everyone would do that and spacebar through them. What happens to the quest whose cut scene is dependent on combat? Go watch youtube if that's what you want.

I agree with your other points though... right clicking the mouse which kills 100% of mobs and throwing a few skills in (and it is just a few) is tedious... but that's what mmo's are. you have trash mobs that are filler. My main complaint with the difficulty is boss, and gold fights... I can take them down by just right clicking the mouse and using none of my skills.... using my skills adds a minor dps or stun, but why not just right click the mouse and let a companion take down 80% of the boss's health all while I'm at full health!!!???? Doesn't seem right.

[lironBD]

this game became stupidly easy.

I can solo almost everything with dumbed down tactics.

 

just made myself a challenge I finished KOTFE using only clairvoyant strike with my shadow dps.... piss easy.

 

thing is it's easier to gear and much easier to make money now. I pretty much got 2 more months of sub but I have nothing to do.... I got full set bonus for pvp and pve and I got 220 mh and oh.... I got all crons and finished every quest in the game already.... it's really boring.

[Hiply]

Yeah but the fact that I have to make all those changes on my end so that the KotFE chapters don't play like the Walking Dead chapters is something I don't want from an MMO. Like seriously number 4 is laughable. Edit: I like doing number 4 but not as a way to make the game challenging... to me that's just an inclusive part of all MMO's.

 

Here's the thing: If it's too easy for you, you will always have options for making it tougher on yourself. Those choices are there for you. If nerfs happen, those people who now find the new harder mode to be tougher than they want the game to be really don't have any options. It used to be that they could, if worst came to worst, self-adjust the level curve a bit so they were always a couple of levels above the content they were facing.

 

Now that level syncing has taken that option off the table for them, better the game be too easy with ways to make it tougher on yourself than too hard for some who no longer have the option to make it easier by outleveling content.

[Pagy]

cutscene > 3 sky trooper > one shot them > 3 sky troopers > one shot them > cutscene

 

this sums up the expansion

[EnkiduNineEight]

You proved pretty succinctly you don't understand the difference between hard and tedious here.

I'm gonna go.

 

Tedious for me is being forced to fight fights I wouldn't have had to fight at all, to achieve the same ends.

 

For example: PRE level Sync, I could have done all the weekly heroics witht he vast majority fo them being roflstompings. I could have walked right by non-necessary fights and done the objectives. Time to completion would have been shorter.

 

POST level sync I now have to fight every fight. Sure, with my Companions being OP, most every fight is a cakewalk anyway but I now have my time taken up engaging in a fight whose outcome is predetermined. I win. So, basically the fight being necessary is BioWare telling me that they value my time less than I do and have thus changed the game to force me to spend time on an activity.

 

In either case, the outcome is exactly the same. I Win, I get the shiny.

PRE-Level Sync/Op Comps - I just blaxed through and did what I want on my time and schedule.

POST-Level Sync - I just blaze through but have to fight every mob that's unavoidable (you can still avoid some) and this takes my time. I still win, I still get the shiny, but now I have to spend more of my time doing it.

 

That's tedium. That second thing there.. Having to do the same thing over and over with the same outcome in order to get the shiny. At least before I still had to do the same thing over and over but it was a lot faster. Heck, even when I would stop to nuke things because I could, it was so fast, it didn't matter.

 

BOTH scenarios evidence a real problem. There's nothing to do buut makework for a good portion of the timein the game and they have never focused on making new content really and since they have focused on making everything super accessible so your 3 year old can play what new content you got was devoured in a short period of time, leaving you with nothing but the repetitive tasks to do.

 

So, in order to give their game longevity, they added tedium. But its not fun tedium. Its tedium for tediums sake. The outcome still is, its so damn easy I win. The difference is I now have to take more time to win.

 

Game is borked. Its always been borked, but it has gotten progressively more borked. I do not advocate for the old school MMO model either, but the game was super easy compared to MMO's prior when it was released, and its only been made easier and easier.

 

Now its so easy that even the worst of the worst can get a level 65 in a weekends worth of play and at no time in that weekend are they ever significantly challenged and so they have no clue how to play their characters when they sign up for the group content that actually can be a little challenging.

 

Though I solo'd the Korriban Incursion tactical yesterday from the first boss onwards essentially when my group finder fellow disconnected in the middle of that first fight and I got tired of waiting so I just went ahead and solod the whole damn thing. Its good to have a godbot companion set to heals.

 

its like the best way to get a challenge now is the group finder because you're sure to get challenged if you have a full group and most of them are mouthbreathers with no idea how to interrupt or cleanse at 65 or what that big flashing circle on the ground means....

Edited November 3, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[Swissbob]

There is an option to skip pretty much all of the combat, it's called a speeder; really easy except for a few chokepoints. A no combat option would be ridiculous if skipping to cut scenes would increase lvl as everyone would do that and spacebar through them. What happens to the quest whose cut scene is dependent on combat? Go watch youtube if that's what you want.

 

I'm not the one who wants to skip combat. I'm like you. But we're in the minority.

 

Bioware thinks making the combat impossible to lose and incredibly fast is the right direction, and based off what data we have, apparently most players do too.

 

All I'm advocating for is player choice. People who want challenging combat get it, and players who don't want combat can skip it. That way, everyone is happy.... right?

 

How would other people getting to skip combat negatively impact your gameplay?

[TX_Angel]

Yeah but the fact that I have to make all those changes on my end so that the KotFE chapters don't play like the Walking Dead chapters is something I don't want from an MMO. Like seriously number 4 is laughable. Edit: I like doing number 4 but not as a way to make the game challenging... to me that's just an inclusive part of all MMO's.

 

Then in fairness, you're playing the wrong MMO...

 

The game has been headed to easy mode for some time, long before 4.0 came out. 4.0 just put the icing on the cake.

 

Try EVE Online if you want some challenge.

[TX_Angel]

Great post and I agree totally with your solution, difficulty settings...

 

What is the reward for having them turned up?

 

Keep in mind that you are asking for a lot of programming and balance testing to be done, for a feature few will use unless it pays something in return.