Lhancelot Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) So, I pulled my 38 shadow off the shelf to mess around on a bit, and this toon was originally dot-specced before... Changed it to infiltration. My impressions are it seems strong, hits hard, but also (even with defensives) seems to wilt quickly if I stay in view and take damage. Basically I hide a lot, hit people when they are weakened, or initiate damage on healers in the back until I am ganged up on, which usually results in me stealthing out to find a weaker target to kill or run away if the node is obviously overpowered by imps and I have no chance to kill or support others. My questions regarding this spec is, am I just not using my defensives properly, should I be finding it easier to survive when attacked particularly when more than one dps get on me? If so, what defensives should I focus on using for best results? (I actually had more issues with a specific PT in the short time I played the shadow yesterday.) EDIT: I forgot to ask this too... Is there ever a time to use mind crush? lol this ability takes so much time to stand and cast, it just seems clunky and hard to mesh this ability in with the sneak attacks. How do I best use Mind Crush when playing infiltration? My other question about this spec is, does infiltration still hit hard in 65s, or does the damage begin to drop to average burst with average sized hits later on? This then leads me to my questions which involves hatred/Serenity. The spec is still dot-based I see... What did they change from 3.0 to 4.0 on this spec, and what are your experiences while playing it? I recall enjoying it for awhile, until mid 30s then I kind of grew bored of it. The dot-spread was really easy (spread with deathfield I think and deathfield had a 30m range). Is this spec still able to pump out decent damage? I recall the problem with serenity was it not having much burst, due to not having any large damage attacks. Does this class still have that as a weakness, basically just spreading dots for damage as it was in 3.0 or does it have some burst now? Thanks in advance for any tips, info, thoughts on these two specs! Edited October 30, 2015 by Lhancelot Forgot another question
sumquy Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 My impressions are it seems strong, hits hard, but also (even with defensives) seems to wilt quickly if I stay in view and take damage. it seems to me that assassins are dying more quickly than they used to pre-4.0. maybe is just me though.
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) Gonna shamelessly plug my 4.0 Hatred and Deception PvP guides here, check my signature for them to get an idea of how they play in 65 PvP. With that aside: Deception damage on mobs while leveling is ridiculous while leveling due to a number of factors, mainly how level sync works though. That aside, at 65, Deception's damage is honestly average when compared to the other burst specs, such as AP Powertech or Marksman Sniper. The survivability is still there though at endgame PvP, after all buffs and utilities are considered, you have something mirroring medium armor's armor percentages. The overall lack of outlandish burst (Looking at you AP PTs) is remedied slightly by the fact that you have increased control on the battle field, but then, that depends on how you use your CC and whether or not you use it effectively close to 100% of the time. So to sum it all up, Deception is sturdy, can take some hits and be ok-ish, has mediocre burst in comparison to other burst specs and still has good control. Hatred is the polar opposite, both in play style and in practice. To be effective as Hatred you have to kite, there's no way around it. It has the lowest DR in the game and it's survivability is directly tied in to it's damage. More damage = More self heals. On the note of damage, it does a lot of it, primarily through DoT spreading, but it also has really good burst as well. You're going to be most effective at medium range, where you can get in for melee abilities, then get out and LoS here and there to prevent a lot of incoming damage. Hatred performance in arenas and regs is more dependent on player skill than Deception (in my opinion, of course) because it is a lot squisher and doesn't have the CC that Deception has, so there is little "breathing room" as in, durations where the enemy is CC'd, allowing you to sit back for a bit, relax, and plan your next step accordingly. Because of the lack of CC, in conjunction with the extremely squishy nature of the class, all of your moves have to be predetermined and calculated on the spot for maximum efficiency. So to sum up this spec, very squishy, little crowd control, survivability directly relates to your damage, but damage profiles are extremely high. Mainly though, both specs can perform exceedingly well if you work at them. For season 4 of PvP, most of my games were Hatred/Serenity whereas season 6 of PvP, well over half were as Deception. Both are viable, just work at them Edited October 30, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi
Lhancelot Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Gonna shamelessly plug my 4.0 Hatred and Deception PvP guides here, check my signature for them to get an idea of how they play in 65 PvP. With that aside: Deception damage on mobs while leveling is ridiculous while leveling due to a number of factors, mainly how level sync works though. That aside, at 65, Deception's damage is honestly average when compared to the other burst specs, such as AP Powertech or Marksman Sniper. The survivability is still there though at endgame PvP, after all buffs and utilities are considered, you have something mirroring medium armor's armor percentages. The overall lack of outlandish burst (Looking at you AP PTs) is remedied slightly by the fact that you have increased control on the battle field, but then, that depends on how you use your CC and whether or not you use it effectively close to 100% of the time. So to sum it all up, Deception is sturdy, can take some hits and be ok-ish, has mediocre burst in comparison to other burst specs and still has good control. Hatred is the polar opposite, both in play style and in practice. To be effective as Hatred you have to kite, there's no way around it. It has the lowest DR in the game and it's survivability is directly tied in to it's damage. More damage = More self heals. On the note of damage, it does a lot of it, primarily through DoT spreading, but it also has really good burst as well. You're going to be most effective at medium range, where you can get in for melee abilities, then get out and LoS here and there to prevent a lot of incoming damage. Hatred performance in arenas and regs is more dependent on player skill than Deception (in my opinion, of course) because it is a lot squisher and doesn't have the CC that Deception has, so there is little "breathing room" as in, durations where the enemy is CC'd, allowing you to sit back for a bit, relax, and plan your next step accordingly. Because of the lack of CC, in conjunction with the extremely squishy nature of the class, all of your moves have to be predetermined and calculated on the spot for maximum efficiency. So to sum up this spec, very squishy, little crowd control, survivability directly relates to your damage, but damage profiles are extremely high. Mainly though, both specs can perform exceedingly well if you work at them. For season 4 of PvP, most of my games were Hatred/Serenity whereas season 6 of PvP, well over half were as Deception. Both are viable, just work at them ok that makes sense. Which do you enjoy most and why? Just mostly curious here. I will also check out your guides too. Appreciate all the info!
GeneralTiphis Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I personally prefer decepetion to hatred for regs. While your damage and burst is not as good, the extra survivability is vital in some objective based games. If you are the node guard and get jumped by multiple stealth with another non stealth on the way, dps is borderline useless you are unlikely to be able to solo kill 3 or 4 before they kill you. The faster you die the worse off your team is. If you are part of a group that's pvping and you know you have a good tank and healer then hatred is better off, if you solo queue the extra survivability is nice. When your pug team avoids the huttball like the plague, don't want to be in hatred spec:p
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 ok that makes sense. Which do you enjoy most and why? Just mostly curious here. I will also check out your guides too. Appreciate all the info! I'm not the best person to ask that question. I enjoy and play all 3 Sin/Shadow specs equally just based on what proves to be more effective at that time of day. Bad tanks in queue? I'll queue tank. LOADS of melee in the queue pool? I'll queue as Hatred. TONS of Sorcs/Healers in the queue pool? I'll queue as Deception.
RodneyMcNeely Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) ok that makes sense. Which do you enjoy most and why? Just mostly curious here. I will also check out your guides too. Appreciate all the info! Kre'a, Evolixe, Aelanis, Keyboard Ninja and many others here are far more qualified to help you than I am, but I'll offer my input from a purely subjective perspective. I haven't tanked on my Shadow since Patch 1.4, so I can't comment on that (although I'm going to try it again in the very near future). However, numbers and performance aside, what Kre'a said about the differences between Infiltration/Deception and Serenity/Hatred is spot-on. In every MMO I play, I go as "martial artsy" as I possibly can, and Infiltration is that spec for me. You are a direct melee brawler in this spec, but you're not going to be face-tanking. This spec is all about direct aggression coupled with precise control. Defensively, it's VERY reactive. You'll be avoiding damage with the judicious use of defensive CDs and mobility. I find that I tend to use my CC defensively as opposed to lining up burst windows, but that my be my own shortcomings. That said, if you want a "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" feel to your gameplay, this spec is a good place to find it. Serenity KIND of has that feel, but you're going to be more of a skirmisher than a brawler. You will live and die by your ability to weave in and out of battle. Subjectively, I feel more like a ranged fighter with a few melee options. To me this spec plays very much like Legolas, LOL! You're going to unload from range, get in close to throw a smackdown, then get back out again. Two COMPLETELY different playstyles. I personally feel more comfortable with Infiltration because I don't kite that well. But if you enjoy the artful dodger kind of PvP, Serenity might be the way to go. That's my 2 credits. Edited October 30, 2015 by RodneyMcNeely
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Kre'a, Evolixe, Aelanis, Keyboard Ninja and many others here are far more qualified to help you than I am, but I'll offer my input from a purely subjective perspective. I haven't tanked on my Shadow since Patch 1.4, so I can't comment on that (although I'm going to try it again in the very near future). However, numbers and performance aside, what Kre'a said about the differences between Infiltration/Deception and Serenity/Hatred is spot-on. In every MMO I play, I go as "martial artsy" as I possibly can, and Infiltration is that spec for me. You are a direct melee brawler in this spec, but you're not going to be face-tanking. This spec is all about direct aggression coupled with precise control. Defensively, it's VERY reactive. You'll be avoiding damage with the judicious use of defensive CDs and mobility. I find that I tend to use my CC defensively as opposed to lining up burst windows, but that my be my own shortcomings. That said, if you want a "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" feel to your gameplay, this spec is a good place to find it. Serenity KIND of has that feel, but you're going to be more of a skirmisher than a brawler. You will live and die by your ability to weave in and out of battle. Subjectively, I feel more like a ranged fighter with a few melee options. To me this spec plays very much like Legolas, LOL! You're going to unload from range, get in close to throw a smackdown, then get back out again. Two COMPLETELY different playstyles. I personally feel more comfortable with Infiltration because I don't kite that well. But if you enjoy the artful dodger kind of PvP, Serenity might be the way to go. That's my 2 credits. False. You're no less qualified to answer than I am
Lhancelot Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Hey thanks again for all the constructive feedback I will give both specs a spin I think. Now I have a better understanding of what they are both more capable of with their strengths and weaknesses. Cheers!
Lhancelot Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 One thing I still don't understand is mind crush with infiltration spec, where exactly does this ability fit in? Everything is sneaky, hit and run, how do you find time to stop and cast this without getting smashed or focused dead? Seems really impractical to try to use this 1.5 sec cast damage ability.... Or am I missing something?
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 One thing I still don't understand is mind crush with infiltration spec, where exactly does this ability fit in? Everything is sneaky, hit and run, how do you find time to stop and cast this without getting smashed or focused dead? Seems really impractical to try to use this 1.5 sec cast damage ability.... Or am I missing something? In a 1v1, fit it in during an Electrocute, Low Slash, or whirlwind.
Aelanis Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 One thing I still don't understand is mind crush with infiltration spec, where exactly does this ability fit in? Everything is sneaky, hit and run, how do you find time to stop and cast this without getting smashed or focused dead? Seems really impractical to try to use this 1.5 sec cast damage ability.... Or am I missing something? You don't use it unless you're PvP'ing and all the enemies are stunned or dead.
xX-Archangel-Xx Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) One thing I still don't understand is mind crush with infiltration spec, where exactly does this ability fit in? Everything is sneaky, hit and run, how do you find time to stop and cast this without getting smashed or focused dead? Seems really impractical to try to use this 1.5 sec cast damage ability.... Or am I missing something? as the ther guys answered, MC can be casted on an incapacitated opponent, good for 1v1. Works fine even with a cybertech geenade. In 4 vs 4 or 8vs8 but also 2vs2 trying to cast it is silly Edited October 30, 2015 by xX-Archangel-Xx
Craignificent Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Just as a side note. I want to say kudos to everyone, especially kre'a, for how helpful you guys are. As an mmo vetern for nearly 20 years I have a lot less time these days to figure things out myself all the time. Getting realistic pros/cons and insight is a tremendous help. It's rare to see top tier players responding so frequently to questions they've answered 100 times already.
xX-Archangel-Xx Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Just as a side note. I want to say kudos to everyone, especially kre'a, for how helpful you guys are. As an mmo vetern for nearly 20 years I have a lot less time these days to figure things out myself all the time. Getting realistic pros/cons and insight is a tremendous help. It's rare to see top tier players responding so frequently to questions they've answered 100 times already. I agree, and ar more usefull than bioare customers service
Lhancelot Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Yeah it's nice having people actually respond with honest helpful answers. Good peoples.
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Just as a side note. I want to say kudos to everyone, especially kre'a, for how helpful you guys are. As an mmo vetern for nearly 20 years I have a lot less time these days to figure things out myself all the time. Getting realistic pros/cons and insight is a tremendous help. It's rare to see top tier players responding so frequently to questions they've answered 100 times already. Welcome to the Assassin/Shadow sub forum
RodneyMcNeely Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 False. You're no less qualified to answer than I am Aw, shucks. You're just being modest. And - all qualifications aside - what I AM is older and slower, so I can't really push our DPS specs to their full potential the way you young bucks can. LOL!
Evolixe Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 In a 1v1, fit it in during an Electrocute, Low Slash, or whirlwind. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Electrocute isn't downtime. You can't break it when you do damage. You could do 500k damage into an electrocute and it still wouldn't break. (not that anyone has that kind of health, but alas) You use it to put burst where you would otherwise not have the damage. Low Slash and Whirlwind are good examples because they break from damage. Thus by casting an MC into it, you put damage from outside your burstwindow, into your burstwindow. That is also the only reason to do it. Because it costs a *ahem* f-ton of force to do.
IInox Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 In a 1v1, fit it in during an Electrocute, Low Slash, or whirlwind. As evo stated already, casti mc during Electrocute is a totally wasted damage Anyway while levelling vs some bosses or elite mobs you can just Sap them and start the fight with MC, also
tkshinoda Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Gonna shamelessly plug my 4.0 Hatred and Deception PvP guides here, check my signature for them to get an idea of how they play in 65 PvP. With that aside: Deception damage on mobs while leveling is ridiculous while leveling due to a number of factors, mainly how level sync works though. That aside, at 65, Deception's damage is honestly average when compared to the other burst specs, such as AP Powertech or Marksman Sniper. The survivability is still there though at endgame PvP, after all buffs and utilities are considered, you have something mirroring medium armor's armor percentages. The overall lack of outlandish burst (Looking at you AP PTs) is remedied slightly by the fact that you have increased control on the battle field, but then, that depends on how you use your CC and whether or not you use it effectively close to 100% of the time. So to sum it all up, Deception is sturdy, can take some hits and be ok-ish, has mediocre burst in comparison to other burst specs and still has good control. Hatred is the polar opposite, both in play style and in practice. To be effective as Hatred you have to kite, there's no way around it. It has the lowest DR in the game and it's survivability is directly tied in to it's damage. More damage = More self heals. On the note of damage, it does a lot of it, primarily through DoT spreading, but it also has really good burst as well. You're going to be most effective at medium range, where you can get in for melee abilities, then get out and LoS here and there to prevent a lot of incoming damage. Hatred performance in arenas and regs is more dependent on player skill than Deception (in my opinion, of course) because it is a lot squisher and doesn't have the CC that Deception has, so there is little "breathing room" as in, durations where the enemy is CC'd, allowing you to sit back for a bit, relax, and plan your next step accordingly. Because of the lack of CC, in conjunction with the extremely squishy nature of the class, all of your moves have to be predetermined and calculated on the spot for maximum efficiency. So to sum up this spec, very squishy, little crowd control, survivability directly relates to your damage, but damage profiles are extremely high. Mainly though, both specs can perform exceedingly well if you work at them. For season 4 of PvP, most of my games were Hatred/Serenity whereas season 6 of PvP, well over half were as Deception. Both are viable, just work at them Thank you so much for the link to your hatred guide, i could not for the life of me figure out what to do with this specc as i switched from Deception (which just adds to the confusion) thank you Edited October 31, 2015 by tkshinoda
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Ok mom, I'll save dessert for after dinner from now on
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Thank you so much for the link to your hatred guide, i could not for the life of me figure out what to do with this specc as i switched from Deception (which just adds to the confusion) thank you Glad it helped
Evolixe Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 Ok mom, I'll save dessert for after dinner from now on
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