A Practical and an Immersion Argument Against Level Sync

[Nihilkult]

Yes, another one not in favor of level sync. Some SPOILERS below.

 

Practical

 

I didn't notice I did this until I tried my first level sync planet, but I base my attack rotation on the HP of the mob. I alter my attacks based on what is left during the battle. Do I use this special attack, or save it for the next mob because my cooldown won't be over and it is a more efficient use of my attacks?

 

Now, over time, I have become accustomed to how much damage my attacks do, and I slowly adjust to what they are capable of as I level. With level sync, this is not possible and my attacks do not flow as neatly as I am use to. Jumping from a lv 18 planet to a lv 40 planet to do heroics throws me off. Am I the only one noticing this?

 

Also, what is the point of having a level system at all beyond learning new skills? If your stats are going to be adjusted to your environment, then you are simply being adjusted to be on par with all others there (albeit at a bit of a boost in comparison to others).

 

Yes, it is easy to fight the mobs, but that is not my point but it does bring up an interesting argument. If the whole point of level sync was to make the game more challenging, then it missed by a mile. I can walk away from an elite mob and my comp in heal spec can take him out just as fast as I could before, and we have near full health when done. Previously, an at-level elite would eat fairly decently into my health. No challenge.

 

Immersion

 

Ok, that is what many of us play this game for. Immersing ourselves into a story to escape the day-to-day doldrum of life. There are certain things that the game cannot do as an MMO to keep it interesting and for mechanics reasons. The game will have to let us go back and visit old areas, FPs, and characters. But it should be as immersive as possible outside that.

 

(SPOILERS) What I mean is, here I am, a Master of the Jedi order who has taken out the Emperor, Revan, countless enemies, and worked my way up the food chain to be the Battlemaster of the Jedi order. Putting me on par with a brand new toon on Tython fighting an enemy who I should be able to dodge and take out without a scratch, yet I am taking damage, kind of detracts from the belief that I am now a very powerful Jedi.

 

Love the new storyline that keeps you going from 60-65 without having to find the next NPC in the chain, but I think this level sync is a bad idea. Make it optional. Greater rewards for those who want it on, less for those with it off.

Yes, starter planet mobs take 2 hits instead of 1 if your finger slip on the wrong skill now and there is a lower number besides your face, it's totally unacceptable.

[JeKoCZ]

I'm grinding the heroics planet after planet (In alphabetical order as they appear in the terminal on Odessen) so I often switch between lv24 to lv18 to lv42 to lv38 to whatever is the next. Level sync hasn't affected my experience in the slightest. So yes, you're just bad at the game if you find it hard to clear Tython or Korriban. Or even Belsavis, Voss and Corellia. And that's not being rude, that's stating the truth.

 

You could argue that a vanguard tank like my character in blue cristals armor from the Alliance vendor is a living tank who could withstand a building falling down on him/her, but I'm still pretty much overpowered and haven't encountered any problem with clearing heroic after heroic on different planets. Yes, on lv38+ planets and above, level sync makes things a bit slower, but especially on lv38- planets you still pretty much 1-2 hit everything. Even the rare champion mobs for the achievements are dead easy to kill on every planet I've been to so far. Only exception are the world bosses, but, thanks again to level sync, lower level planets are more populated for various reasons so finding a group is a lot easier than 2 weeks ago.

 

The immersion argument is meaningless, you're still among the strongest players if you visit a level synced planet while being at lv65. Just as above, if you find it hard, or annoying, to deal and take damage to and from other players/mobs, it's your problem and maybe you aren't actually "adjusting your attack pattern" as much as you think.

 

Oh, and RPers take themselves too seriously.

[Kaisernick]

Great points OP, except more fanbois, knights, and whales to defend their crack dealer.

oh so people in favor of level sync must be fanboys.

i think it time you hear something and when you do it will change you life.

I have my problems with the exp, allthougth level sync isn't one of them but unlike some people i dont feel the need to demand that they change these things. so here it is

IT ISN'T ALL ABOUT YOU.

stop using the "oh someone like something i hate, they must be knights or fanboys argument" it make you sound like a child you gets upset because some told you no.

and this isn't just aimed at this post its aimed at all ones like these.

[branmakmuffin]

Level sync actually increases immersion. It is totally non-immersive to have (formerly) gray bad guys totally ignoring your character (even for just a few seconds). Edited October 29, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Renovear]

Hi

 

My experience so far has been that level sync does not detract a whole lot from my ability to kill mobs. It might take a lot longer in some instances but I never feel in peril. If anything I feel a lot more heroic as my character now so from an immersion point of view it's actually increased it for me.

 

I can understand how it would be jarring but I think given time this is definitely a good thing for the game.

[Odyssys]

Level sync to me is more realistic then not having it.

 

In every MMO I have played it just feels odd to get so powerful you can smite things with no effort. Take Operation or Flashpoint bosses that story wise are somewhat formidable foes but at level 60 they are pieces of tissue paper you can sneeze your way through. Take the Bounty Hunter boss from The Essless or his troops of Mandalorians. It doesn't make any sense that they should be so powerless to a high level player as to make them seem like toddlers.

 

At least with level sync you can be very powerful but it still feels like you have to exert some force to beat down your opponents. I also enjoy that I can return to almost any area and still gain experience if I say wanna return and do a bonus mission area.

[Eillack]

Someone apparently didn't like the comparison I made with Bioware, so I'll post again, good points OP.

 

So far I have seen nothing "accomplished" in regards to why BW forced level sync on us.

[Alssaran]

So far I have seen nothing "accomplished" in regards to why BW forced level sync on us.

 

Then that is your opinion and cannot be used objectively against the feature in any way.

 

Going from the only data we can access (which is looking at reddit and in general chat), most people seem to think positively about the feature or are indifferent about it. There could be a few improvements, but there will not be an optional trigger in the next months.

 

That pretty much concludes it. There is no point in making another thread about this. Bioware has already issued a direct statement:

 

What about level synch? Any plans to make it optional? - Not that I know of.

 

Now stop beating a dead horse. This is just utilities all over again.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alssaran

[Nihilkult]

 

The immersion argument is meaningless, you're still among the strongest players if you visit a level synced planet while being at lv65. Just as above, if you find it hard, or annoying, to deal and take damage to and from other players/mobs, it's your problem and maybe you aren't actually "adjusting your attack pattern" as much as you think.

 

Oh, and RPers take themselves too seriously.sometimes

I'm a rper, I mainly agree with you but still had to fix it.

[ScarletBlaze]

1. I am far from the best player and yet I have not died or come even close to dying on any of the planets. It still takes me less than 1 minute to kill the NPC on the planet, not a big deal.

 

Also you could use level sync to actually help someone on the planet. A lot of guilds are using this level sync to actually run activities with lower levels in the guild and are the lower members are enjoying it as they don't feel like they are left out because of their levels.

 

2. Immersion? How is it runing immersion? If you are standing around enemies they should attack you and you kill them. Simple. It never made sense that they didn't attack you. Even for my consular, who is a member of the Jedi Council, that an enemy would not attack me.

 

Second, if you are roleplaying a Jedi Master than do what a Master normally would do. Help the padawans on the planet. Take the time and go with them on missions and show them things that they don't have yet (use some abilities they don't have) and use it as a teachable moment.

[Nihilkult]

Level sync to me is more realistic then not having it.

 

In every MMO I have played it just feels odd to get so powerful you can smite things with no effort. Take Operation or Flashpoint bosses that story wise are somewhat formidable foes but at level 60 they are pieces of tissue paper you can sneeze your way through. Take the Bounty Hunter boss from The Essless or his troops of Mandalorians. It doesn't make any sense that they should be so powerless to a high level player as to make them seem like toddlers.

 

At least with level sync you can be very powerful but it still feels like you have to exert some force to beat down your opponents. I also enjoy that I can return to almost any area and still gain experience if I say wanna return and do a bonus mission area.

 

There is one universe where all of this would be invalid. It's Dragon Ball. But we're not in Dragon Ball so I'm backing this statement.

[Eillack]

Then that is your opinion and cannot be used objectively against the feature in any way.

 

Going from the only data we can access (which is looking at reddit and in general chat), most people seem to think positively about the feature or are indifferent about it. There could be a few improvements, but there will not be an optional trigger in the next months.

 

That pretty much concludes it. There is no point in making another thread about this. Bioware has already issued a direct statement:

 

 

 

Now stop beating a dead horse. This is just utilities all over again.

 

I've seen mainly negative comments, which get downvoted to oblivion or lynched in chat, by knights, so your "data" is not accurate.

[Alssaran]

I've seen mainly negative comments, which get downvoted to oblivion or lynched in chat, by knights, so your "data" is not accurate.

 

Yeah? I've been on reddit for the past few days for some bug reports. There are actually quite a few posts from people who were previously strongly against it, but now rather like the new approach. Some of those even reach 30-40 upvotes depending on when they were posted. The overall criticism seems to stem from some minor tweaking issues with story bosses, but that's hardly anything to get worked up about. Hardly "strongly and mainly negative" in any way. If anything the opinion seems to be middle ground with a slight tendency into positive.

 

But I suppose there is no way you could ever accept that someone likes the feature. Or more importantly: changes his mind. You've been constantly writing how ***t this feature is for the past two weeks (yes, I do remember your cynical comments from the long discussion thread) and you do not pass up any chance to remind us of that. Wonder people still reply...

Edited October 29, 2015 by Alssaran

[VanCali]

1) Please think for yourself how often you actually went back to lower planets to exercise your power? If anyone who's complained about level sync actually did this id have no argument, but face it, you dont.

 

Actually I do, all the time. Thanks for assuming.

 

For the rest, I never said I was having trouble taking out the mobs. I said that I use damage as the indicator for how I do my rotations. Yes, for many mobs it is easy. Again, never said otherwise. What I was saying is that my efficiency really suffers when using damage as the metric on when to use what skills as I have no idea what my damage is when I keep switching different planets.

 

There were some good points made throughout the discussion, thank you. There were some snotty ones which I would expect from any forum sadly. People can't help but to insult or tear down others' arguments when they are different from their own.

 

Overall, I will try to adapt. I was just putting it out there, hence my questions. The immersion is still off for me and likely always will be. MMOs aren't the greatest format for it anyway (how many Lana's do we see these days? Exactly.).

[TurtlesAWD]

I don't think the practical argument really holds water because with level sync your optimal ability rotation will always be optimal. With the previous system your "rotation" on old planets likely consisted of pressing the aoe ability once or maybe twice if they weren't all standing in it the first time. I don't want this to sound accusatory, which it might because I'm using the word "you" but let's face it that's really going to be everyone's rotation if the mobs are weak enough to die in an aoe cast.

 

As for immersion, I find this more immersive than suddenly being an unstoppable god by virtue of being 5 levels higher than old content.

Edited October 30, 2015 by TurtlesAWD

[mephistosaurus]

Here is my practical reason for disliking getting down leveled.

 

Without the down leveling and for the past 4 years, I've enjoyed the game. Even farming out leveled content. I was entertained without it.

 

With down leveling as a forced and 24/7 turned on feature. The same things I have been doing for 4 years are now less enjoyable. Some I can't even do. It is no longer as entertaining as it was because I got down leveled. It hasn't helped bring more entertainment for my money or time. It's hindered it.

 

BW tried to fix something that wasn't broken so they could rehash 4 year old heroics in their new 250K grind (up from 10k) and make it take just a bit longer to grind by making you less powerful. All down level did was add tediousness to an already old area of the game. Reduced my enjoyment of SWTOR in doing so.

 

So, I'm against it.

 

+1 This right here. They gave us a cheap re-hash of old areas, reworked the heroics to be solo's basically. They didn't level scale the loot, Deco's are super rare drops now apparently. I don't really care about loot, and I am max level before finishing the chapters so what is the benefit of me being down leveled? None. Im going to do the missions for the rep anyways, isn't it more beneficial that players can enjoy the game if they want? Optional isn't hard, there was a toggle to turn 12XP on and off from a gree vendor. Why not this?

[robertthebard]

I've seen mainly negative comments, which get downvoted to oblivion or lynched in chat, by knights, so your "data" is not accurate.

 

Yes, because anecdotal evidence rules the roost, right? Here's mine:

 

While grinding the Heroics out on Hoth, there were 6 different groups for the world bosses forming. I was there 2 hours. There were 4 channels on the map. That's on Hoth, mind you. Public area Heroics were 50/50, some were crowded, others not, and this was all on the Imp side, I didn't log over to a Pub to check how it was. In that two hours, there was no discussion about how bad everyone was doing because of level sync.

[robertthebard]

+1 This right here. They gave us a cheap re-hash of old areas, reworked the heroics to be solo's basically. They didn't level scale the loot, Deco's are super rare drops now apparently. I don't really care about loot, and I am max level before finishing the chapters so what is the benefit of me being down leveled? None. Im going to do the missions for the rep anyways, isn't it more beneficial that players can enjoy the game if they want? Optional isn't hard, there was a toggle to turn 12XP on and off from a gree vendor. Why not this?

 

Because you getting or not getting 12x xp in no way affected my gameplay. Choosing not to lvl sync can, and will, affect the gameplay of others. How? Because, while you're feeling all Godly gathering up the Elites and Champs in a public H2, there's that guy that's at level trying to do it, but can't, because you pulled all the mobs. This is the issue, not a rehash, or making old content relevant to the game, but "I won't be able to pull all the mobs in an area any more, so it's bad". Cry me a river, I'm planning a BBQ, and the tears are good for seasoning.

[Quraswren]

Because you getting or not getting 12x xp in no way affected my gameplay. Choosing not to lvl sync can, and will, affect the gameplay of others. How? Because, while you're feeling all Godly gathering up the Elites and Champs in a public H2, there's that guy that's at level trying to do it, but can't, because you pulled all the mobs.

 

You mean the same issue be it one person or 15. Where there are not enough mobs in a given heroic area and BW couldn't be bothered to up the spawn rate while they turned it all into H2s

 

One guy pulling mobs or many still screws up your game play. What next, you want ot ban others from being near you? It's an mmo get used to it.

 

Down leveling didn't ned to be forced to hinder someone killing mobs. I do that now in a very similar fashion. Nothing really changed because down leveling didn't really change things other than instead of one shotting things you take 5 more secs and 5 shot them. You're just as screwed now as you ever where because now there are more killing the spawn instead of just one guy if even that.

 

This is the issue, not a rehash, or making old content relevant to the game,

 

Sorry but yes, the issueis down leveling in a game based on leveling up. The issue is down leveling to rehash 4 year old content to create a new 250K grind out of what used to be a 10K grind. The issue is the rehashed content because that has never been a well accepted practice for gamers when they are going into a new expansion that offers little else besides a short story. (ands short no matter how good you think it is).

 

so you are mistake. The issue is a forced down leveling that accomplished nothing but allowing them to rehash 4 year old content, create that God awful new grind with 22 companions that you have no idea if you should even care about to level because BW so loves to change, take crap away from you after you grinded it the first time (Talking to you achievements and crafting)

 

but "I won't be able to pull all the mobs in an area any more, so it's bad". Cry me a river, I'm planning a BBQ, and the tears are good for seasoning.

 

Sure you can, just level up a companion and have at it. Down leveling should have been optional from the day they thought about designing it.

 

As a forced feature it's a waste of development time that did nothing but hide how little new content this so called expansion really has while the rehash 4 year old content to grind again in a newly warped 10K grind changed to 250K because apparently when you did it the first time it wasn't "grindy" enough.

[RogDodge]

Where the OP is wrong, regarding Immersion is:

 

When we go back the the old planets, they don't say;"Hey Darth X or Jedi Master Y" they talk as if you were at that planet in the story. The "Immersion" is on their side and not yours..

[-staticmatic-]

So far I have seen nothing "accomplished" in regards to why BW forced level sync on us.

 

Just to revitalize older areas that you will also be running in to maintain and complete current content. KotFE is to BioWare what Cataclysm was to WoW.

 

They're just trying to lengthen the grind so you can't just walk in and clear the 40-50 mobs you need to get your alliance crates too quickly, so you can invade Heroic StarFortresses. The new xPac seems all about grinding . . . everywhere. One of the chief complaints in the past was that at "Elder Game" level, players ran out of things to do and put that content on easy farm. So much so they've revitalized incentives for rolling 8 toons past the original chapter 3, aka level 50.

 

Immersion is already broken with numbers, and buttons, and stats . . . if this were the StarWars like the movies; players could kill and be killed in one or two deadly strikes, and maybe longer by a few minute duel.

[-staticmatic-]

As for immersion, I find this more immersive than suddenly being an unstoppable god by virtue of being 5 levels higher than old content.

 

 

Well, as you grow in power; previous enemies may steer away from you out of fear. That's always kinda struck me as off in the traditional MMORPG model. Enemies never flee, they have no sense of self preservation. If I were given some guard duty and was face to face with someone who slew an emperor, or Revan, etc., I might give pause to surrendering before running after said person on a swoop. But hey, it's immersive to be limitlessly resurrected when your bar goes empty.

 

Nightmare mode anyone?

[CelCawdro]

The immersion argument cannot be applied, here. Given that the most immersive experience would be death on either side depending on who lands the first shot or strike, and hostile beings always being hostile no matter who you are, level sync only serves to make the game more immersive.

 

It is not immersive to have a few dozen sand people wailing on you with gaffi sticks and shooting you in the face while not being affected. It is not immersive to go waddling up to a rancor and strut past completely unmolested.

[Hiply]

Point #1: figure out how to fight without relying on a "rotation." 'k. Opinion duly noted.

 

Point #2: Yeah, immersion is totally destroyed because you can see a different number next to your name. Woof, right out the door that immersion goes. I mean, it's not like your level 65 character with all his abilities and suped-up gear isn't completely dominating everything on the starter worlds. That "12" next to your name has totally wimpified you! Why, you can't even go to the very start of the planet and take on whatever mob's hanging out where you first emerged without winding up at death's door!

 

About the only thing you can't easily take on on your own are world bosses now. And guess what: You're not supposed to. You never were. It was just a relic of a bad design ethic. They're called "world bosses" for a reason. Not "really big punching bag for high level guys to throw themselves at for free money."

 

This time, come up with some actual valid reasons. You won't because you can't because it's one of the best decisions Bioware has made for the game in a long time, but at least try next time.

 

Well, you're wrong but that's ok.

 

He's right when he makes the argument that, taking Tython as a perfect example, we started our training here. Against beings that posed a challenge to young Jedi being trained to take on far tougher challenges. And we survived there as young trainees. Survived and thrived, proving ourselves capable...in our training robes and wielding training sabers...of meeting any threat head on save that posed by a world boss.

 

Cut to today; the pre-eminent master of Force combat in the entire Jedi Order...who has gone toe to toe with the Dark Lords of the Sith and prevailed, single-handedly decimated the Children of the Emperor, carved Rancors into sushi for a warm-up...returns to Tython to check on the progress of the latest class of Padawans. He wears the most advanced armor in the galaxy. He wields the finest weapons in known existence. He has been honed to razor sharpness and is the master of every nuance of Force combat. And now, for reasons known only to the Midichlorians and EA, he is challenged by creatures that days ago were beneath his contempt and dispatched with barely a wave of his hand.

 

Right, makes perfect sense.

 

Except that no, no it doesn't. Not even a little.

 

Level syncing should be, at best, an optional toggle. Perhaps a mandatory one in the instance where someone intends to actually run planetary or storyline quests, but only then. If my L65 Jedi is coming back to Tython for the sole purpose of sightseeing and picking up some holocron I didn't bother with previously I should carve my way through anything there like the proverbial hot lightsaber through butter.

[Hiply]

Well, as you grow in power; previous enemies may steer away from you out of fear. That's always kinda struck me as off in the traditional MMORPG model. Enemies never flee, they have no sense of self preservation. If I were given some guard duty and was face to face with someone who slew an emperor, or Revan, etc., I might give pause to surrendering before running after said person on a swoop. But hey, it's immersive to be limitlessly resurrected when your bar goes empty.

 

Nightmare mode anyone?

 

If you're saying that the model of enemies never fleeing or having no sense of self preservation is flawed then I agree completely. Little fish flee big fish.

 

A fox may kill and eat a lone and hungry wolf pup. Will it run from a fully grown alpha wolf? A Fire Team of Marines may engage, pursue, and take out a small group of enemy combatants. Will they retreat if they top a rise and find themselves confronted by a reinforced battalion of heavy infantry? A twelve year old Golden Gloves Lightweight contestant wades into fight after fight in his own age and weight class. Will he decide discretion is the better part of valor if Mike Tyson calls him out?

 

Of course enemies have a sense of self-preservation, living things without any sense of self preservation are almost impossible to find; the vast majority are extinct. Many MMOs recognize this by constantly shrinking the aggro range of mobs as the level difference between them and a player increases. To the point where if the difference is big enough you would have to hit a mob (and likely one-shot it anyway) to provoke it into attacking you. And that makes sense.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Hiply