Nemarus Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 Since the game's launch, I've had an unhealthy fascination with playing Darkness as a hybrid DPS spec. My thought was that since Darkness gets so many auto-critting Shocks, I could stack Surge. And since I was stacking Surge, it also made sense to stack Crit in order to take advantage of my high Surge on other skills. This used to make tons of sense back when I could dip into Madness to pick up Claws of Decay, which boosted Thrash crit damage. Since Disciplines ruined that, a lot of the "novelty" of Darkness DPS was lost. I worried that the removal of Surge in 4.0 would further diminish my fun. But instead, the new crit mechanics have had some very interesting side effects for Darkness. For one, auto-crit Shocks now get your surge value and your crit chance as extra surge. Assuming a crit chance of ~35% and surge value of ~65%, your Shocks crit for around +100%. This is actually much higher than you could get pre-4.0, even with maxed Surge rating. That's cool. But even crazier is what happens when an auto-crit Shock consumes a charge of Recklessness: * First, the auto-crit Shock gives your base surge of 65%. * Next, Recklessness adds a flat +60% chance to crit for all Force attacks, bringing your chance to crit to around 95%. Since the Shock is already auto-critting, this 95% critical chance is converted to critical magnitude. * Finally, an auto-crit Shock itself does an extra +50% damage when it consumes a charge of Recklessness. This is written into the skill itself--to ensure that Recklessness charges were not "wasted" if consumed by an auto-crit Shock. All this means an auto-crit Shock that consumes a charge of Recklessness now does an extra ~210% damage. So if your Shock does ~4000 damage base, it will do over 12000 damage in this situation. And because this is a critting Force attack, it cannot be defended or shielded. Combine that with the utility that gives you an extra charge of Recklessness and the Stalker bonus that reduces Recklessness cooldown and your Shock becomes unusually potent. So much so that I think it may be worth spending all three charges on auto-crit Shocks, rather than burning one on 3-stack Depradating Volts. This seems counter-intuitive at first--after all, 3-stack DV is our highest damage skill, so we want it to crit. But you have to remember Shock is the only skill that benefits *twice* from each charge of Recklessness (an extra 60% crit magnitude from crit chance over 100% and the extra 50% written into the way Shock and Recklessness interact). For Shock, a charge of Recklnessess gives 110% crit magnitude on a skill that will definitely crit. For any other skill, a charge of Recklessness only gives you +60% crit chance, and no bonus to crit magnitude at all. Of course, the catch is that in between your super Shocks, you can't use any other Force attack (since it would consume a Recklnessess charge), so you're stuck using Thrash, Maul, Lacerate, and Assassinate as you try to proc auto-crit Shock. Thrash does the least damage, but gives you two chances to proc. Maul and Assassinate can do significant damage (especially if they crit), but only give you one chance to crit. Lacerate in a crowd is an almost guaranteed proc, but distributes your damage instead of focusing it. I suspect BioWare may eventually remove the +50% damage for auto-crit Shocks that consume a charge of Recklessness, since that boon isn't really needed given the new crit chance -> surge conversion mechanic. Though privately I hope they don't What I'm doing is certainly niche, and I doubt it actually compares in power to a dedicated DPS spec.
ishbindeinvater Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 But what is the "flow" with darkness? Spamming thrash and waiting for shock auto crit and recklessness? Thats not really burst. In th same time a deception sin could do so much more while also controlling the enemy. And the defense isnt much worse either. 25 percent flat DR after stealth out and blackout, that 9 percent DR on 3 stacks thats all better than armor which can be penetrated or avoided as a whole. And shielding in pvp isnt really useful with those auto crits and crit ratings... Darkness pvp doesnt feel smooth for me neither does hatred ... For me
Ryuku-sama Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 Nem... Your maths are off by a long shot.... Recklessness doesn't add true crit chance. So the final surge formula is : if energize is up, crit = 100%+critChance surge * max(1, crit) + 50% So assuming 35% crit and 65% surge, 0.65*1.35+0.5=138%. So a 138% damage increase. So for a Shock doing 4000 damage baseline, you'd get 9520 damage.
Nemarus Posted October 28, 2015 Author Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Nem... Your maths are off by a long shot.... Recklessness doesn't add true crit chance. So the final surge formula is : if energize is up, crit = 100%+critChance surge * max(1, crit) + 50% So assuming 35% crit and 65% surge, 0.65*1.35+0.5=138%. So a 138% damage increase. So for a Shock doing 4000 damage baseline, you'd get 9520 damage. And yet, in 208 gear, my Reckless, Energized Shocks do 11-13000 damage (in PvE with no gear above 208). And just two posts above is a GIF of someone doing 17k--probably in better gear than I have and getting an Expertise bonus against another player. The absurdly large numbers are precisely why I tried to derive what is happening. The math I stated in my OP is based on my theory, but it jives very well with the numbers being observed. What is the source for your math and assertions? And how do you explain the large numbers we're seeing? Edited October 28, 2015 by Nemarus
Ryuku-sama Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) And yet, in 208 gear, my Reckless, Energized Shocks do 11-13000 damage (in PvE with no gear above 208). And just two posts above is a GIF of someone doing 17k--probably in better gear than I have and getting an Expertise bonus against another player. The absurdly large numbers are precisely why I tried to derive what is happening. The math I stated in my OP is based on my theory, but it jives very well with the numbers being observed. What is the source for your math and assertions? And how do you explain the large numbers we're seeing? Because base Shock damage isn't 4000. Kreea is running with something like 44% crit and 75% surge and full power high endurance build. So just that is 160% increase. To see how Recklessness affects crits, just go look at a Thundering Blast with and without Recklessness. The average damage won't change. I don't have the coefficients right now for Shock, but my own experience with it is an average of about 5k with it without crit on a Darkness Assassin which have 32% extra damage on it. Which means 13k with a crit and Reck up. 15k+ are possible on light armor targets but aren't the norm. And the maths are coming from dipstik formulas. Note that even 15k-17k is low for a DPS. Marksman hits 25k in a single GCD. AP can do over almost 40k in 2 GCDs of burst with 2-3GCDs of set up. 15k is just not that much. It's among the lowest burst spec... Without good sustain to back it up unlike Deception or Carnage who do in the 15k range with medium sustained. So, for me, running Darkness in full DPS gear isn't worth it. For PvP, I would run Lethal B mods, Shield/Absorb with high HP enhancement, high Endu and crit ear/implants... crit and mastery relics for extra HP and extra burst. HP augments. Edited October 28, 2015 by Ryuku-sama
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 Because base Shock damage isn't 4000. Kreea is running with something like 44% crit and 75% surge and full power high endurance build. So just that is 160% increase. To see how Recklessness affects crits, just go look at a Thundering Blast with and without Recklessness. The average damage won't change. I don't have the coefficients right now for Shock, but my own experience with it is an average of about 5k with it without crit on a Darkness Assassin which have 32% extra damage on it. Which means 13k with a crit and Reck up. 15k+ are possible on light armor targets but aren't the norm. And the maths are coming from dipstik formulas. Note that even 15k-17k is low for a DPS. Marksman hits 25k in a single GCD. AP can do over almost 40k in 2 GCDs of burst with 2-3GCDs of set up. 15k is just not that much. It's among the lowest burst spec... Without good sustain to back it up unlike Deception or Carnage who do in the 15k range with medium sustained. So, for me, running Darkness in full DPS gear isn't worth it. For PvP, I would run Lethal B mods, Shield/Absorb with high HP enhancement, high Endu and crit ear/implants... crit and mastery relics for extra HP and extra burst. HP augments. The biggest reason I don't suggest Shield/Absorb and instead suggest the High End/DPS gear is because of how crit functions with shield. And when you take into consideration the amount of crit that people are running these days compared to the 3.X era....you'll begin to see how much worse shield is now. In PvP ofcourse.
Ryuku-sama Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) The biggest reason I don't suggest Shield/Absorb and instead suggest the High End/DPS gear is because of how crit functions with shield. And when you take into consideration the amount of crit that people are running these days compared to the 3.X era....you'll begin to see how much worse shield is now. In PvP ofcourse. Even then?? 50% crit isn't enough to override 50% shield. Few specs really go over 40% crit on average without wasting a lot of their potential burst for crit sake. And I feel getting 50% shield chance with DW up is a pretty nice goal to counter non autocrit burst even with high crit rate. EDIT: A good way to actually find out the average crit rate in wzs would be to take a very large sample of logs (a few thousands) and run them through Crinn PvP logs reader. That way we could get an average crit value to base how much shield we can actually use before it is overrided by crits. Edited October 28, 2015 by Ryuku-sama
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Even then?? 50% crit isn't enough to override 50% shield. Few specs really go over 40% crit on average without wasting a lot of their potential burst for crit sake. And I feel getting 50% shield chance with DW up is a pretty nice goal to counter non autocrit burst even with high crit rate. EDIT: A good way to actually find out the average crit rate in wzs would be to take a very large sample of logs (a few thousands) and run them through Crinn PvP logs reader. That way we could get an average crit value to base how much shield we can actually use before it is overrided by crits. I'm not going to tell you how to gear your tank, I'm just saying that I personally have had more success going the high endurance DPS route, for various reasons, is all.
Nemarus Posted October 29, 2015 Author Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Because base Shock damage isn't 4000. Mine is. Shock base damage 4088-4293 (avg 4190) Crit chance 34.94% Crit multiplier 65.23% By your math, my damage range for a Reckless Energized Shock should be: 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .3494) = 9730 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .3494) = 10218 Let's call that method A. And yet this happens routinely. I do not have any relics buffing me (was wearing shield and defense ones). I do not have any stims. I do not have any of the Star Fortress buffs. And yet here I am, hitting a Reckless, Energized Shock for 13382 damage, well above your theoretical maximum. Even if we keep your calculation but allow for Reckless adding "true crit chance" (method B) 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .6 + 3494) = 11330 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .6 + .3494) = 11898 We are still nowhere high enough. The funny thing is ... even my math (which probably doesn't do crit chance overflow conversion right) doesn't allow for a hit that high! (method C) 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 + .6 + .3494) = 12680 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 + .6 + .3494) = 13316 So clearly neither of us know what is going on with a Reckless Energized Shock. Going to the combat dummy this morning (normal one), I got these numbers: Normal Shock 3758 3695 3694 3791 3760 3706 3782 3751 3730 3748 avg 3742 (4158 without 10% armor) Natural Crit Shock 6288 6283 6301 6275 6310 6161 6325 6107 avg 6256 (6951 without 10% armor) Energized Crit Shock 7083 7168 7082 7001 7130 6996 6962 6995 7106 7132 7134 avg 7072 (7858 without 10% armor) Reckless Energized Crit Shock 12449 12249 11993 11987 12028 12239 12339 12245 avg 12191 (13546 without 10% armor) I'm assuming that dummy has damage reduction of 10%. That means that my average Reckless Energized Crit Shock damage (before armor reduction) was 13546--again well above either of our calculated maximums. So what's going on here? Edited October 29, 2015 by Nemarus
Aelanis Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 Mine is. Shock base damage 4088-4293 (avg 4190) Crit chance 34.94% Crit multiplier 65.23% By your math, my damage range for a Reckless Energized Shock should be: 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .3494) = 9730 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .3494) = 10218 Let's call that method A. And yet this happens routinely. I do not have any relics buffing me (was wearing shield and defense ones). I do not have any stims. I do not have any of the Star Fortress buffs. And yet here I am, hitting a Reckless, Energized Shock for 13382 damage, well above your theoretical maximum. Even if we keep your calculation but allow for Reckless adding "true crit chance" (method B) 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .6 + 3494) = 11330 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .6 + .3494) = 11898 We are still nowhere high enough. The funny thing is ... even my math (which probably doesn't do crit chance overflow conversion right) doesn't allow for a hit that high! (method C) 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 + .6 + .3494) = 12680 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 + .6 + .3494) = 13316 So clearly neither of us know what is going on with a Reckless Energized Shock. Going to the combat dummy this morning (normal one), I got these numbers: Normal Shock 3758 3695 3694 3791 3760 3706 3782 3751 3730 3748 avg 3742 (4158 without 10% armor) Natural Crit Shock 6288 6283 6301 6275 6310 6161 6325 6107 avg 6256 (6951 without 10% armor) Energized Crit Shock 7083 7168 7082 7001 7130 6996 6962 6995 7106 7132 7134 avg 7072 (7858 without 10% armor) Reckless Energized Crit Shock 12449 12249 11993 11987 12028 12239 12339 12245 avg 12191 (13546 without 10% armor) I'm assuming that dummy has damage reduction of 10%. That means that my average Reckless Energized Crit Shock damage (before armor reduction) was 13546--again well above either of our calculated maximums. So what's going on here? It's closer to 32%. Also, tooltips round funny sometimes, so I'd expect things to get a little wonky.
Nemarus Posted October 29, 2015 Author Posted October 29, 2015 It's closer to 32%. Also, tooltips round funny sometimes, so I'd expect things to get a little wonky. That's the Operations dummy, isn't it? I was using the vanilla level 65 one. The elite. Regardless of what the damage reduction is--the point stands that Reckless Energized Shocks are much bigger than one would expect them to be. Well beyond any wonkiness from rounding.
Ryuku-sama Posted October 29, 2015 Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Mine is. Shock base damage 4088-4293 (avg 4190) Crit chance 34.94% Crit multiplier 65.23% By your math, my damage range for a Reckless Energized Shock should be: 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .3494) = 9730 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .3494) = 10218 Let's call that method A. And yet this happens routinely. I do not have any relics buffing me (was wearing shield and defense ones). I do not have any stims. I do not have any of the Star Fortress buffs. And yet here I am, hitting a Reckless, Energized Shock for 13382 damage, well above your theoretical maximum. Even if we keep your calculation but allow for Reckless adding "true crit chance" (method B) 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .6 + 3494) = 11330 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 * (1 + .6 + .3494) = 11898 We are still nowhere high enough. The funny thing is ... even my math (which probably doesn't do crit chance overflow conversion right) doesn't allow for a hit that high! (method C) 4088 + 4088 * (.5 + .6523 + .6 + .3494) = 12680 4293 + 4293 * (.5 + .6523 + .6 + .3494) = 13316 So clearly neither of us know what is going on with a Reckless Energized Shock. Going to the combat dummy this morning (normal one), I got these numbers: Normal Shock 3758 3695 3694 3791 3760 3706 3782 3751 3730 3748 avg 3742 (4158 without 10% armor) Natural Crit Shock 6288 6283 6301 6275 6310 6161 6325 6107 avg 6256 (6951 without 10% armor) Energized Crit Shock 7083 7168 7082 7001 7130 6996 6962 6995 7106 7132 7134 avg 7072 (7858 without 10% armor) Reckless Energized Crit Shock 12449 12249 11993 11987 12028 12239 12339 12245 avg 12191 (13546 without 10% armor) I'm assuming that dummy has damage reduction of 10%. That means that my average Reckless Energized Crit Shock damage (before armor reduction) was 13546--again well above either of our calculated maximums. So what's going on here? First. Dummy armor DR is around 35%. Second, maybe we are missing something... Maybe the 50% from Recklessness isn't additive but multiplicative. So the correct crit multiplier for your crit chance with 34.94% crit and 65.23% surge would then be : (1 + 65.23%) * (1 + 34.94%) * 150% = 334%. 3742 to 12191 is a 325% increase which would be well in line with that for only a dozen tests. This would explain the stupidly high numbers of Energized Shocks under Reck while also explaining the perfectly unchanged Thundering Blast under Reck. Edited October 29, 2015 by Ryuku-sama
Goblin_Lackey Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) So here is the calculations for the damage for a Reckless, Energized Shock: I will go through each step. Base Stats Used: (I am using Shayd's stats for consistancy) Force Bonus Damage: 1999.2 (from 4636 Mastery and 1737 Power) Critical Chance: 34.94 (from 4636 Mastery and 986 Critical) Critical Multiplier: 65.23% (from 986 Critical) Base Damage: 4465 (from being level 65) All debuffs applied (from other people Shock information:source The tooltip coefficients Coefficient: 1.49 StandardHealthPercentMin: 0.129 StandardHealthPercentMax: 0.169 Actual coefficiecents Coefficient: 1.75 StandardHealthPercentMin: 0.155 StandardHealthPercentMax: 0.195 It has the following Bonuses: (only showing relevant) Assassin's Training: +17% to base damage dealt by Shock (modifies base coefficients) Dark Charge: reduces all damage dealt by 10% Electrify(16): +25% more Shock Damage Energize(36): 30% chance of Melee Moves granting an Autocrit to Shock, Recklessness adds 50% critical multiplier as well as previous effects This causes the tooltip to be the following: 4088-4293 Min: (1.49 * 1999.2 + 1.29 * 4465 ) * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10) = 4088 Max: ( 1.49 * 1999.2 + 1.69 * 4465 ) * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10) = 4293 But that is not the expected damage. (especially with the tooltip bug for shock) Expected Damage: Base damage = ( coefficient * Bonus Force + StandardHealthPercent * StandardHealth ) Min: ( 1.75 * 1999.2 + 1.55 * 4465 ) = 4190.675 Max: ( 1.75 * 1999.2 + 1.95 * 4465 ) = 4369.275 Damage Bonuses Base Damage * ( 1 + [Electrify] + [Dark Charge] + [5% F/T Debuff] ) Min:4190.675 * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10 + .05) = 5028.81 Max:4369.275 * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10 + .05) =5243.13 Critical Boost: (I am only looking at relecklessness energized boosted hits) Critical Boost = ( 1 + ( [Critical Multiplier] + [50% Recklessness Critical Multiplier] ) * Max( 1 , [Critical Chance] + [100% Autocrit] +[60% Recklessness] ) ) Min:5028.81 * ( 1 + (65.23% + 50% ) * ( 34.94% + 100% +60% ) ) = 16324.99 Max:5243.13 * ( 1 + (65.23% + 50% ) * ( 34.94% + 100% +60% ) ) = 17020.74 Thats the damage cap, but now we have to account for armor. I skipping the armor calculation step and just assumed that the target had 35% damage reduction Min: 16324.99 * ( 1 - 0.35) = 10611.25 vs 35% armour Max: 17020.74 * ( 1 - 0.35) = 11063.48 vs 35% armour The last step can be changed based on the target's damage reduction vs energy damage. Edited October 30, 2015 by Goblin_Lackey
Ryuku-sama Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 I'm not on my computer right now (Windows coruption and KMODE errors) so I can't check it myself right now. Could anyone hop on a Sorcerer and test how Recklessness react with autocrit once and for all?? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847154
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 So here is the calculations for the damage for a Reckless, Energized Shock: I will go through each step. Base Stats Used: (I am using Shayd's stats for consistancy) Force Bonus Damage: 1999.2 (from 4636 Mastery and 1737 Power) Critical Chance: 34.94 (from 4636 Mastery and 986 Critical) Critical Multiplier: 65.23% (from 986 Critical) Base Damage: 4465 (from being level 65) All debuffs applied (from other people Shock information:source The tooltip coefficients Coefficient: 1.49 StandardHealthPercentMin: 0.129 StandardHealthPercentMax: 0.169 Actual coefficiecents Coefficient: 1.75 StandardHealthPercentMin: 0.155 StandardHealthPercentMax: 0.195 It has the following Bonuses: (only showing relevant) Assassin's Training: +17% to base damage dealt by Shock (modifies base coefficients) Dark Charge: reduces all damage dealt by 10% Electrify(16): +25% more Shock Damage Energize(36): 30% chance of Melee Moves granting an Autocrit to Shock, Recklessness adds 50% critical multiplier as well as previous effects This causes the tooltip to be the following: 4088-4293 Min: (1.49 * 1999.2 + 1.29 * 4465 ) * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10) = 4088 Max: ( 1.49 * 1999.2 + 1.69 * 4465 ) * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10) = 4293 But that is not the expected damage. (especially with the tooltip bug for shock) Expected Damage: Base damage = ( coefficient * Bonus Force + StandardHealthPercent * StandardHealth ) Min: ( 1.75 * 1999.2 + 1.55 * 4465 ) = 4190.675 Max: ( 1.75 * 1999.2 + 1.95 * 4465 ) = 4369.275 Damage Bonuses Base Damage * ( 1 + [Electrify] + [Dark Charge] + [5% F/T Debuff] ) Min:4190.675 * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10 + .05) = 5028.81 Max:4369.275 * ( 1 + 0.25 - 0.10 + .05) =5243.13 Critical Boost: (I am only looking at relecklessness energized boosted hits) Critical Boost = ( 1 + ( [Critical Multiplier] + [50% Recklessness Critical Multiplier] ) * Max( 1 , [Critical Chance] + [100% Autocrit] +[60% Recklessness] ) ) Min:5028.81 * ( 1 + (65.23% + 50% ) * ( 34.94% + 100% +60% ) ) = 16324.99 Max:5243.13 * ( 1 + (65.23% + 50% ) * ( 34.94% + 100% +60% ) ) = 17020.74 Thats the damage cap, but now we have to account for armor. I skipping the armor calculation step and just assumed that the target had 35% damage reduction Min: 16324.99 * ( 1 - 0.35) = 10611.25 vs 35% armour Max: 17020.74 * ( 1 - 0.35) = 11063.48 vs 35% armour The last step can be changed based on the target's damage reduction vs energy damage. Does this translate for PvP as well? If so, how did I manage a max hit of 18.8k on Shock in a ranked arena (where i knew the target was also 2018 exp) and 17.6k in that GIF on another 2018 expertise target? Could it have something to do with bolster? Hmm.
Nemarus Posted October 30, 2015 Author Posted October 30, 2015 Does this translate for PvP as well? If so, how did I manage a max hit of 18.8k on Shock in a ranked arena (where i knew the target was also 2018 exp) and 17.6k in that GIF on another 2018 expertise target? Could it have something to do with bolster? Hmm. He's using my crappy stats, not yours.
dipstik Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 a relic proc, armor pen debuff, pvp math or other things could be the source of an 18.8k crit
Goblin_Lackey Posted October 30, 2015 Posted October 30, 2015 Does this translate for PvP as well? If so, how did I manage a max hit of 18.8k on Shock in a ranked arena (where i knew the target was also 2018 exp) and 17.6k in that GIF on another 2018 expertise target? Could it have something to do with bolster? Hmm. It applies just as much in PVP. I also did not include Relics, as dipstik noted. (I should have for the max side) nor did I define your target (I went with a blanket 35% damage reduction, but human players don't have that). Bolster likes to play with the character sheet stats, the damage calculations remain the same and are calculated for every hit.
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