Going Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Show me the Cowden math and I will amend my OP to better reflect what is best then. I stated in the beginning that I would hope that this would spark discussion and if my math was off to let me know, so if your math is correct and mine is off, provide it so that I may amend my OP so that I'm not misinforming people I concede that I may have miscalculated somewhere and am open to criticisms. So does all this factor into most classes? Well sustained and burst classes that is...I pretty much went all power augs and all crit enhances on my jugg...am i right or wrong here Ps...directed at krea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 So does all this factor into most classes? Well sustained and burst classes that is...I pretty much went all power augs and all crit enhances on my jugg...am i right or wrong here Ps...directed at krea We're currently discussing the use of the Devastating Vengeance relic. Augment math is perfectly fine and correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 We're currently discussing the use of the Devastating Vengeance relic. Augment math is perfectly fine and correct. im referring to the post itself not the current discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 im referring to the post itself not the current discussion. The entirety of the post is correct in that Power > Critical > Mastery augments in full sets of 14 as far as DPS/Damage goes. Kak is implying that you can mix augments and then run a main stat relic for a potentially higher DPS gain, which could be true since my math is based on going all in and not so much on mixing and matching augments. I'm awaiting his math to show what is in fact BiS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMate Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 So tell me again why you think the crit relic is good? Lol. If you value the crit proc from it so much, just augment 7-8 augs as crit instead of full power to get close to the 554 that you get from relic proc, then power and mastery relic. You will do more burst with that setup than with with full power, power + crit relic. You lose 7-8 augs of power (511 to 584), keep the same crit rating level, and gain 882 mastery. Higher stats during burst. Your idea would be fine if the crit relic proc didn't give less stats than the power and mastery ones. If you want more crit, and get it for the same "price" as power in augs, but you get less bang for your buck in another slot, why not just get your desired extra crit from augs? 0 sense. I don't think that is relevant as the relics and augments are two different things. He has shown that power augs are better over crit and mastery. Since we already have a relic with power we still need a second relic with either mastery or crit, in that case crit apparently wins out. If we could have 2 pwer relics that would prolly be bis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 I don't think that is relevant as the relics and augments are two different things. He has shown that power augs are better over crit and mastery. Since we already have a relic with power we still need a second relic with either mastery or crit, in that case crit apparently wins out. If we could have 2 pwer relics that would prolly be bis. I would wait before discrediting him until we can see his math first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMate Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I would wait before discrediting him until we can see his math first. Yeah of course, I didn't mean it dismissive in any way was just adding to the discussion. If it came across as such however I apologize that was not my intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Show me the Cowden math and I will amend my OP to better reflect what is best then. I stated in the beginning that I would hope that this would spark discussion and if my math was off to let me know, so if your math is correct and mine is off, provide it so that I may amend my OP so that I'm not misinforming people I concede that I may have miscalculated somewhere and am open to criticisms. It's not an actual math error man, you're just not thinking about the bigger picture. With your setup, under your double relic window, you have 1022 power from augs, 882 power from proc, 554 crit from proc. I'm saying, why not go 8 crit augs (584 crit, about as much as the relic proc would give you), 6 power augs (438 power, 584 less than your setup), 882 power from proc, and 882 mastery from proc. All other variables are the same. You have a net 438 less power, 30 more crit, and 882 more mastery. That's for double relic proc. For a single relic proc, we both have a power relic so that would just cancel out. When no relic is procced, it's a straight up trade of 584 power for crit in your augs. This would be inferior for sustain, but your whole rationale here is that you're going for the best burst. If we wanted sustain, we'd just go all power augs, power mastery relic. Edited October 28, 2015 by Kakisback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 It's not an actual math error man, you're just not thinking about the bigger picture. With your setup, under your double relic window, you have 1022 power from augs, 882 power from proc, 554 crit from proc. I'm saying, why not go 8 crit augs (584 crit, about as much as the relic proc would give you), 6 power augs (438 power, 584 less than your setup), 882 power from proc, and 882 mastery from proc. All other variables are the same. You have a net 438 less power, 30 more crit, and 882 more mastery. That's for double relic proc. For a single relic proc, we both have a power relic so that would just cancel out. When no relic is procced, it's a straight up trade of 584 power for crit in your augs. This would be inferior for sustain, but your whole rationale here is that you're going for the best burst. If we wanted sustain, we'd just go all power augs, power mastery relic. I understand what you're saying, trade some power augments to basically gain the same critical rating that my relic would give me, and then go for the mastery relic to gain an additional 882 mastery. My question is though, the math behind this, during an auto crit for example, would that 882 mastery which translates to 176.4 bonus damage be worth more than the crit relic proc of 9.8% surge? Strictly comparing the mastery relic to the crit relic here. It seems that despite the lower value of critical rating that it gives, the 9.8% surge that it translates to on an Auto crit would appear to be worth more damage than 176.4 bonus damage, or am I incorrect in my rationale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esis Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 So wait. Would a mix of augs (10 Power/4 crit) be better than going pure crit or pure power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 So wait. Would a mix of augs (10 Power/4 crit) be better than going pure crit or pure power? I would say for certain specs that may be a better route to go. But you'd have to have some math done to know for sure....I hate math Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) So wait. Would a mix of augs (10 Power/4 crit) be better than going pure crit or pure power? Potentially. I could do the math for it but atm I'm all mathed out...been doing a lot of number crunching for the past week in an attempt to learn the best methods of gearing so that I could write my guides and in doing that, I'm pretty tired now lol. I'll do the math for it, just not now. Edit: Spent a lot of credits too and warzone commendations in an attempt to test everything first hand as well Edited October 28, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) I understand what you're saying, trade some power augments to basically gain the same critical rating that my relic would give me, and then go for the mastery relic to gain an additional 882 mastery. My question is though, the math behind this, during an auto crit for example, would that 882 mastery which translates to 176.4 bonus damage be worth more than the crit relic proc of 9.8% surge? Strictly comparing the mastery relic to the crit relic here. It seems that despite the lower value of critical rating that it gives, the 9.8% surge that it translates to on an Auto crit would appear to be worth more damage than 176.4 bonus damage, or am I incorrect in my rationale? I'm not saying your math is necessarily wrong, but your rationale is. Yes, crit relic proc > mastery relic proc for autocrits in a vaccum (I think, I can check when I get home), but you shouldn't look at it in a vacuum. That crit is desirable, but you should get it in a slot that yields a better return on investment before resorting to using the crit relic's relatively low proc value. You would want to switch out all your augs from power to crit before ever resorting to that diminished return on investment. When I get home I can tell you exactly how much crit you would want in order to achieve the biggest autocrit. I don't believe in putting all your eggs in the autocrit basket, even for specs like fury, but I'll still do the math. Though that wouldnt be hard at all, and I doubt I would come up with anything that you couldn't, though you said you didn't feel like messing around with mixing augs and stuff, so idk. It's no difference to me, I just write the formula and the graph gives me the answer lol. Edit: Actually, running it over in my head, I'm not sure a 9.8% surge boost beats 176 bonus damage. Ok yeah there's no way. I assumed you were right on that one, but I think you might be writing in the 9.8% as a straight multiplier on the autocrit damage, rather than adding it to the existing surge%. Forget about my mixing augs suggestion- it was just to prove a point anyway. Full power augs and power mastery relics all the way folks. Inb4 I get home and check the numbers and turn out to be wrong. Don't think so tho Edited October 28, 2015 by Kakisback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Edit: Actually, running it over in my head, I'm not sure a 9.8% surge boost beats 176 bonus damage. Ya. This is the real issue. You could definitely make the case for auto-crits that the surge boost might be better. However, auto-crits are spec dependent most of the time and their frequency varies from spec to spec. Parses would be needed. How much extra damage per hit does 176 bonus damage amount to? How much surge boost is 9.8%? That can vary quite a bit depending on the skill...Cell Burst versus Smash, for example. Edited October 28, 2015 by DarthOvertone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 I'm not saying your math is necessarily wrong, but your rationale is. Yes, crit relic proc > mastery relic proc for autocrits in a vaccum (I think, I can check when I get home), but you shouldn't look at it in a vacuum. That crit is desirable, but you should get it in a slot that yields a better return on investment before resorting to using the crit relic's relatively low proc value. You would want to switch out all your augs from power to crit before ever resorting to that diminished return on investment. When I get home I can tell you exactly how much crit you would want in order to achieve the biggest autocrit. I don't believe in putting all your eggs in the autocrit basket, even for specs like fury, but I'll still do the math. Though that wouldnt be hard at all, and I doubt I would come up with anything that you couldn't, though you said you didn't feel like messing around with mixing augs and stuff, so idk. It's no difference to me, I just write the formula and the graph gives me the answer lol. Edit: Actually, running it over in my head, I'm not sure a 9.8% surge boost beats 176 bonus damage. Great thanks. With Blade and Soul beta opening up tomorrow, my entire weekend will basically be full and I don't think I'll have much time to do anything SWTOR related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joesixxpack Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Potentially. I could do the math for it but atm I'm all mathed out...been doing a lot of number crunching for the past week in an attempt to learn the best methods of gearing so that I could write my guides and in doing that, I'm pretty tired now lol. I'll do the math for it, just not now. Edit: Spent a lot of credits too and warzone commendations in an attempt to test everything first hand as well Thanks to you and the other debaters doing the math and investing in this stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only lurking potato that appreciates y'alls efforts and getting stat quantification discussion going. But mainly I just wanted to say bump. Edited October 29, 2015 by Joesixxpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 Thanks to you and the other debaters doing the math and investing in this stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only lurking potato that appreciates y'alls efforts and getting stat quantification discussion going. But mainly I just wanted to say bump. Kakisback is thrice the mathematician that I'll ever be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Kakisback is thrice the mathematician that I'll ever be Nah I just went tryhard in figuring out how to set up this stuff a while back. I use graphs to avoid messing with calculus lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyStik Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 So power augs on a vigilance guardian too? Or just infiltration, sharp shooter type burst specs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 So power augs on a vigilance guardian too? Or just infiltration, sharp shooter type burst specs? Vig/Veng is more of a sustained spec, as such I would probably go with Critical augments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 So power augs on a vigilance guardian too? Or just infiltration, sharp shooter type burst specs? I've done crit and power and I'm sticking with power for now until Krea proves otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvus Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 This is a deeply interesting thread, thank you, OP. I just hit 65 and am re-gearing my hatred assassin. I have one thing to ask and it is going to sound like min/max blasphemy but I'd like you to consider it after you get done laughing and let me know what your opinion is on it please, OP or anyone. I agree power augs are best. I agree, as does everyone, that the Serentipitous Assault relic is mandatory. One thing I found is that a couple weeks ago my defense relic (yes, I have a defense relic; I swap it in when I'm going against snipers and there's no sorcs around), well that defense relic has 169 Mastery on it in place of Endurance. HP does not increase damage so I actually considered using redoubt augs, and did, a while back to test, but the reduction in power isn't worth swapping some defense for some endurance on augs. On relics however, this 167 Mastery should result in something like a 1.3% increase in bonus damage which is substantial. That's on every single hit, and that does not even require the relic to proc! Granted when it does proc you're only going to get 882 defense, not power, crit, or even mastery, but the more than 1% increase in bonus damage even if the relic never procs ... well, it strikes me that it could be worth it. Opinions please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinre_the_Jedi Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 This is a deeply interesting thread, thank you, OP. I just hit 65 and am re-gearing my hatred assassin. I have one thing to ask and it is going to sound like min/max blasphemy but I'd like you to consider it after you get done laughing and let me know what your opinion is on it please, OP or anyone. I agree power augs are best. I agree, as does everyone, that the Serentipitous Assault relic is mandatory. One thing I found is that a couple weeks ago my defense relic (yes, I have a defense relic; I swap it in when I'm going against snipers and there's no sorcs around), well that defense relic has 169 Mastery on it in place of Endurance. HP does not increase damage so I actually considered using redoubt augs, and did, a while back to test, but the reduction in power isn't worth swapping some defense for some endurance on augs. On relics however, this 167 Mastery should result in something like a 1.3% increase in bonus damage which is substantial. That's on every single hit, and that does not even require the relic to proc! Granted when it does proc you're only going to get 882 defense, not power, crit, or even mastery, but the more than 1% increase in bonus damage even if the relic never procs ... well, it strikes me that it could be worth it. Opinions please. My 4.0 Hatred guide will be up on Dulfy.net soon, I suggest you check it out! With that out of the way, I wouldn't suggest using any tanking relics as a DPS. As hatred, your survivability is baked into how much damage you do. The more damage you do, the more your abilities will self heal you for. Because of this, you'll want to gear for maximum possible damage while augmenting your defenses by picking up personal defensive buffs from your utility tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarvus Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Thank you for your reply. Yeah, but what I'm saying is that if you have on a power relic and a crit relic, and then swap in the redoubt defense relic for the crit relic, your bonus damage goes up by more than 1% and that does not even require a relic proc. With relics they proc about 30% of the time and only for 6seconds. You'll get two, maybe three casts off in that time frame if you're lucky. That versus a 1.3ish % increase in base damage and bonus damage due to the high mastery value on the redoubt relic. It's not a tanking relic if it increases your base damage and bonus damage substantially, even without having to proc. It becomes a dps relic that just so happens to give 880 defense when it procs, lol. I just did some casual testing with a nearly fully geared toon and it looks to me like BiS is the power relic and the mastery relic. The mastery relic increases my crit rate MORE than the crit relic while moving my surge up only 1% versus 4%. That's a good trade. 42% crit with 66% surge with mastery relic, 40% crit with 69% surge for crit relic. The mastery relic does this while increasing my base damage about 90% as much as the power relic. I wouldn't bother with the crit relic at all for either dps or bursty dps. Edited October 29, 2015 by Jarvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metthew Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Damnit Krea, edit the OP to say 3% increase already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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