DarthTyranid Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 That way we can summon a healbot companion. Because soon enough, because of the problems groups are having without healers, they will just start auto-kicking one member at the beginning so another can pull a companion out to heal.
Vankris Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 the akward moment when a healing companion heals more than a heal specced player.
Joefjr Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 They need better tuning, trash is more deadly than some bosses and some bosses are hitting for 30k+.
Vankris Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 i'm thinking that the really hard hitting ability are the one that can be avoided (hiding being something, or moving out of an area or from the front of the boss if he is static) unavoidable damage should not be lethal, at least through typical mitigation/defensive cooldown/healing. dying from unavoidable one-shot damage is bad design. That being said, i don't know if that is what is happening, or simply a case of learn2play (like avoiding avoidable damage)
Joefjr Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 i'm thinking that the really hard hitting ability are the one that can be avoided (hiding being something, or moving out of an area or from the front of the boss if he is static) unavoidable damage should not be lethal, at least through typical mitigation/defensive cooldown/healing. dying from unavoidable one-shot damage is bad design. That being said, i don't know if that is what is happening, or simply a case of learn2play (like avoiding avoidable damage) Its the special attacks to the person with aggro, not get out of red circle etc. If you ever tanked you now there is plenty of damage you can't avoid at all and it has to be taken, that damage is the reason you have a tank in the first place and its that damage is what needs toned down with out a tank or healer in group. Yes we have 3 heal stations but they have CD's and can't be spammed.
Vankris Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Its the special attacks to the person with aggro, not get out of red circle etc. If you ever tanked you now there is plenty of damage you can't avoid at all and it has to be taken, that damage is the reason you have a tank in the first place and its that damage is what needs toned down with out a tank or healer in group. Yes we have 3 heal stations but they have CD's and can't be spammed. i have been tanking in MMOs for the past 10 years. at a pretty good level, not world first but always in the server first guilds. If there is one thing i learn in all these years tanking, it is that i am resposible for my life. Do i use all my defensive cooldown, my healing pot, my adrenal. Do i really avoid everything, do i maintain damage reduction buff. If i die and i didn't do anything in my power to survicve, then it's my own damn fault and i have no right to blame the healers (or lack thereof in that case). And when i play dps, you'd be surprise how that survival training helps surviving an encounter. A dead DPS does 0 DPS. So yeah, i still think it's a learn2play issue, but i guess it's easier to whine on the forum about the damage rather than learning survival skill. Edited October 26, 2015 by Vankris
Joefjr Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 i have been tanking in MMOs for the past 10 years. at a pretty good level, not world first but always in the server first guilds. If there is one thing i learn in all these years tanking, it is that i am resposible for my life. Do i use all my defensive cooldown, my healing pot, my adrenal. Do i really avoid everything, do i maintain damage reduction buff. If i die and i didn't do anything in my power to survicve, then it's my own damn fault and i have no right to blame the healers (or lack thereof in that case). And when i play dps, you'd be surprise how that survival training helps surviving an encounter. A dead DPS does 0 DPS. So yeah, i still think it's a learn2play issue, but i guess it's easier to whine on the forum about the damage rather than learning survival skill. Funny thing about survival CD's they are not up all the time, even funnier when they on CD some bosses still hit for 30k while i wait 2-3 mins for the CD to be back, adrenal and med pack 1 per fight, stations have CD's. So yeah, i still think it's a tuning issue, but i guess it's easier to sounds like an elitist on the forum and tell people learn2play than point out the damage being to high, getting poor group comps, getting low lvls who don't have all their skills, rather than posting constructive feedback and say blah blah LOLZ LEARN2PLAYZ blah blah like you
Vankris Posted October 26, 2015 Posted October 26, 2015 Funny thing about survival CD's they are not up all the time, even funnier when they on CD some bosses still hit for 30k while i wait 2-3 mins for the CD to be back, adrenal and med pack 1 per fight, stations have CD's. So yeah, i still think it's a tuning issue, but i guess it's easier to sounds like an elitist on the forum and tell people learn2play than point out the damage being to high, getting poor group comps, getting low lvls who don't have all their skills, rather than posting constructive feedback and say blah blah LOLZ LEARN2PLAYZ blah blah like you then you die. there is no big deal here. Dying in PVE group content is normal, so you learn, so you time you CD better and have them ready when you need. Or maybe a case of bad luck. Just, rez rebuff and go a it again. no need to call a nerf because you died a few time in a dungeon.
MotorCityMan Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) The tacticals are too hard for pug groups lvls 10+. They need to be tuned down. Edited October 27, 2015 by MotorCityMan
MotorCityMan Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) That way we can summon a healbot companion. Because soon enough, because of the problems groups are having without healers, they will just start auto-kicking one member at the beginning so another can pull a companion out to heal. So, instead of tuning the tacticals properly for lvl10+ pug groups, eliminate a player and use a companion (which are silly OP atm) to replace them? If this game has come to that, we all need to find another one. Edited October 27, 2015 by MotorCityMan
SteveTheCynic Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 the akward moment when a healing companion heals more than a heal specced player. There was a moment like this in Allods Online. It had always been a "group up for group content" game as there were no NPC helpers. At some point, they introduced what they called "Mercenaries", a set of NPC helpers you could hire in Allods's equivalent of flashpoints. There were six of them to choose from, and everyone loved Matron Lighthand, the healer. Mostly because in the 4.0-era content, there was a "training flight" where you could get into PuG runs through "FP"s, and if your group was short, the mercenaries to make it up were free. It was immensely popular because anyone of sufficiently high level could do it - just be in that spot before the hour or half-hour to sign up for the next run... And Matron Lighthand healed better than any player I ever saw doing those runs. If you had a full (no mercenaries) group, you were almost guaranteed to have problems. If there was even one slot open, someone always hired Matron, and everyone relaxed.
KendraP Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 I primarily play tanks, so when it comes to the new system I'm primarily the one drawing the aggro. I haven't really had issues with the bosses thanks to the kolto stations, but the mobs? The best group I've had was one with a healer. That run was normal/easy because I wasn't worried about not having a DCD avaliable. The groups I've been in 3 dps with though? We were using CC, stuns etc. And I was still dying because I used all the defensive cool downs on a different mob and the group wasn't going to wait for a 3 min CD before moving on. I have frequently gone through 5 or so med packs in one FP. The second best group I've had consisted of 4 tanks. At least we could rotate who was holding aggro so whoever was tanking had a DCD avaliable. I understand that they are trying to make the FPS more accessible (i.e. no more waiting forever in queue for tanks and healers for hours) but I honestly miss the old way of doing FPs. At least then I wasn't dying on the mobs constantly and it was still challenging enough to be fun. Im worried that what they end up doing to fix the problem will just make the FP crazy easy. As a tank I would still like to have a purpose. I've had a few groups complain before we even started that they'd rather have 4 dps or 3 dps and a healer rather than even having a tank in the group. And I sort of get it, I guess. Tanks are only marginally useful without heals. Which is why I have no issues with the bosses, I can heal myself. But the mobs, not so much. It's use defensive cool downs and hope the mob dies before me. That being said, I don't really know what the solution is. If they want to make the group content for groups that require no tanks maybe I just start rolling dps. But it's sad because I have learned to enjoy tanking. Which I learned how to do because it meant faster queue times. That's what I used to tell people who complained about having to wait. Now I feel more like a hindrance to a group than an asset.
theSCARAYone Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 The only thing that needs to be changed is the amount of damned damage going out in these things. Even with a healer, these "tacticals" are at a HMFP level
Khevar Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 The only thing that needs to be changed is the amount of damned damage going out in these things. Even with a healer, these "tacticals" are at a HMFP level I don't believe that for a minute -- unless you can provide some combat logs to back up your statement. Perhaps it only seems that way if you're used to running flashpoints with a healer. I've done several tac runs so far. Either a 4 dps group or a 3 dps/ 1 tank group in each case. Mismash of level from low to high. The only times I've run into troubles were if the group: 1. Didn't rest between pulls. 2. Pulled multiple groups. 3. Didn't use CC. If you're having troubles in a tactical FP, but your group isn't playing smart -- then don't blame the content.
Katahn Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 I am suspecting there's some tuning that needs to happen with bolster. In running various FPs on my tanks I notice that as I go up in level I am getting wrecked less quickly (still getting wrecked in the 30s but it isn't as fast anymore). If I had to posit a guess I'd say that while companions are getting boosted based on level/influence, player boosting isn't working "quite right". Might just be that secondary stat bolstering isn't where it needs to be. Something like that would produce a difference when comparing "gear-less companion at 65" vs. "bolstered player at 65". Additionally I rather suspect that the previously-not-a-tactical FPs might still need some fine tuning. Minus potential issues with the bolster my best guess is that the "new" tacticals might be a bit over-tuned as the "old" tacticals don't seem to be nearly so rough.
theSCARAYone Posted October 27, 2015 Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) I don't believe that for a minute -- unless you can provide some combat logs to back up your statement. Perhaps it only seems that way if you're used to running flashpoints with a healer. I've done several tac runs so far. Either a 4 dps group or a 3 dps/ 1 tank group in each case. Mismash of level from low to high. The only times I've run into troubles were if the group: 1. Didn't rest between pulls. 2. Pulled multiple groups. 3. Didn't use CC. If you're having troubles in a tactical FP, but your group isn't playing smart -- then don't blame the content. The only evidence I need is to tell you to go run a tactical with 4 dps, and I don't mean kuat or any of the forged alliance ones. Run tarval 5 or maelstrom prison. Or go see how much damage you take on the trash pull right before the first boss of mando raiders, you cant heal through that if you try. I'm talking from a purely pug state as well, sure if you have a group of guildies together it will work fine. But when you have a bunch of randoms that can range anywhere from 15-65 its gonne be bad. All tacticals should be clearable with 4 dps, just like Kuat is. Edited October 27, 2015 by theSCARAYone
Khevar Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 The only evidence I need is to tell you to go run a tactical with 4 dps, and I don't mean kuat or any of the forged alliance ones. Run tarval 5 or maelstrom prison. Here what I ran over the weekend (and last night): Hammer Station Battle of Ilum Mandalorian Raiders KDY Battle of Ilum Czerka Labs Or go see how much damage you take on the trash pull right before the first boss of mando raiders, you cant heal through that if you try. Eh? There's no healing in a 4-dps group. Of course you can't heal through it. After wiping on the big pack of dogs, we regrouped, 3 of us in the doorway, one to start the pull and run towards us. Two of us used in-combat mezzes after they spawned to remove 2 dogs out of the fight, the rest we AOE'ed down in the doorway. I'm talking from a purely pug state as well, sure if you have a group of guildies together it will work fine. But when you have a bunch of randoms that can range anywhere from 15-65 its gonne be bad. All of my tac runs so far have been pugs through the group finder. All tacticals should be clearable with 4 dps, just like Kuat is. "Just like Kuat" Wonderful. Tactical Kuat is about the least challenging flashpoint ever made. And you want them all to be like that. Shoot, I don't know why I'm even bothering arguing with you. If there's anything I've learned, it's that people complain about how hard things are and Bioware always listens to them.
thereter Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 Ive been running through with my healer on these tacticals. I am enjoying the new tank mechanics on my healer that has no medical probe.
Khevar Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Run tarval 5 or maelstrom prison. Funny coincidence -- I got a Taral V tactical group finder pop just 30 minutes ago. I ended up joining it mid run -- someone else had gotten frustrated and quit the group. We were 4-dps run, level 30, level 36, level 60 and level 65. Everyone but me was a Sentinel (oh boy) The problems were apparent: 1. Nobody CC'ed anything. 2. When I tried to CC something, it was promptly broken. 3. I didn't see a single interrupt of a cast attack by another player. 4. None of the sents used Awe, despite the abundance of weak mobs it would have worked on. 5. They tried to skip mobs but ended up pulling double-groups. 6. I estimate (by the HP of the mobs and subtracting my own damage) the other sents did a combined total of 4000 dps (divided among three players, all bolstered to level 65). But here's the punchline -- we STILL finished the FP. (eventually ) I stand by my earlier statement. If you're having troubles running the new tacs, it's not the content that's to blame ... Edited October 28, 2015 by Khevar
theSCARAYone Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) "Just like Kuat" Wonderful. Tactical Kuat is about the least challenging flashpoint ever made. And you want them all to be like that. If I wanted to have a challenge, I would run HM and NiM ops(which I do). Tacticals are no place for any sort of challenge, especially when 90% of people you get queued with not only are going through these FP's for the first time, but are also sub 50. Tacticals are meant to be quick and easy, not time consuming and mechanic heavy. Also, no, I dont "complain about how hard everything is", I'm complaining about how hard tactical FP's are. Everything else is either in line or too easy(such as most SM ops) Edited October 28, 2015 by theSCARAYone
theSCARAYone Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) But here's the punchline -- we STILL finished the FP. (eventually ) I'd like to point to the underlined and bolded portion. Let me re-state that tacticals are meant to be quick and easy, not hard and time consuming. Edited October 28, 2015 by theSCARAYone
Khevar Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) I'd like to point to the underlined and bolded portion. Let me re-state that tacticals are meant to be quick and easy, not hard and time consuming. So let me get this straight. The ONE run where I had a truly horrible group of Leeroy Jenkins sentinels, who were dramatizing every bad stereotype of players of that class, did everything poorly, and acted like 12-year-olds on a sugar high -- you're saying THAT run should have been quick and easy? /shudder What the heck is wrong with a tactical flashpoint requiring the faintest bit of skill? Edited October 28, 2015 by Khevar
theSCARAYone Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) So let me get this straight. The ONE run where I had a truly horrible group of Leeroy Jenkins sentinels, who were dramatizing every bad stereotype of players of that class, did everything poorly, and acted like 12-year-olds on a sugar high -- you're saying THAT run should have been quick and easy? /shudder What the heck is wrong with a tactical flashpoint requiring the faintest bit of skill? They don't require a "faint bit of skill". They require the knowledge of the mechanics and patience to deal with newbies. Once again, tacticals are meant to be easily and quickly cleared by a a pug. When those pugs can range anywhere from 15-65, then they need to be pretty damn easy. This time, queue up with a group of 4 dps at level 15 and see if you can clear tarval 5 last boss or bonus boss, I guarantee you wont be able to do it. On top of that, this "one of a kind" run you had isn't so one of a kind. I've been in several myself, maybe you've just been lucky. Edited October 28, 2015 by theSCARAYone
Khevar Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 They don't require a "faint bit of skill". They require the knowledge of the mechanics and patience to deal with newbies. Exactly! Once again, tacticals are meant to be easily and quickly cleared by a pug. Says you. On top of that, this "one of a kind" run you had isn't so one of a kind. I've been in several myself, maybe you've just been lucky. If by "lucky" you mean: "you got a group of good players", then no, I haven't been lucky. Only one run out of 7 has been super easy, and that was the KDY pop. But ALL of them were doable. Perhaps I'm one of those people who have the "patience to deal with newbies"? Let me be clear: you're going to win this fight. Bioware ALWAYS listens to the "nerf crowd". Always Always Always. The tacs WILL be nerfed. It's as certain as sun rising tomorrow. Until then, I'll continue enjoying them as they are right now.
theSCARAYone Posted October 28, 2015 Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Says you. Says most players including hardcore raiders. Perhaps I'm one of those people who have the "patience to deal with newbies"? Perhaps you are, I am as well but only to a point. Wiping 10 times to tarval 5's last boss with 4 different group compositions is too much for me though. You like doing tacticals because of the challenge, then go do HMFP's. Most groups of people, no matter what level they are, where this is both their first mmo and first toon, cannot clear most tactical fp's as they are now and that is why I am complaining about them. Edited October 28, 2015 by theSCARAYone
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