Choices matter..........but they really don't.

[SentinelDranoel]

Not going to happen to the extent some people think it is. For starters the story is not finished and the ending is going to have a canon ending for future Old Republic stories. I base that thought off of KOTOR and KOTOR 2. I can also point out that Mass Effect 4 will pick a particular story for Shepard and his crew or narrow it to a few choices. There is no way they can bring in the various choices from three previous games without narrowing the options.

 

People keep overestimating the choices matter selling point. There is a video for Mass Effect 3 where a dev explains mathematically all of the choices accumulated from Mass Effect one and two and explains how they had to narrow stuff done to even get an ending.

[TheSeventhJedi]

stained...not sure about ruined

I can't speak for others, but after that atrocious ending I never played any of the games again and won't be purchasing the new one (whatever it's called - I forget.) In my case at least, I'd call that ruined.

[gsummers]

Remember those old "choose your own adventure" books? I loved those. Completely different story every time if you made different decisions. Often times, a choice would lead to death and that was it... the end. Nothing to do but start from the beginning and try again. You could definitely say that choices matter there.

 

What if KotFE did the same thing? You are running through a dungeon and can choose path A or B. If you choose path A, and suddenly the floor collapses beneath you and you plunge to your death. The End. Perhaps a quick cutscene showing the Zakuul Empire ruling unchallenged over all. Then if choices REALLY mattered, your toon would be deleted. Realistically though, it would probably restart at the beginning of that particular chapter and let you try again. That would be fun for a bit, and choices would matter, but eventually everyone would just know the "right" path of choices to make to get through.

 

Or what about the old Wingman games? I remember that based on how much you were able to accomplish of your mission objectives, the story would branch off and would lead eventually either to victory or defeat in the war. So maybe one mission could be to take out a Zakuul VIP target. You have a certain amount of time to do it. If you don't complete it, or the target escapes due to DPS not being fast enough or missing a mechanic of the fight, then the story will actually continue, but that means that the next mission or two may be harder, or it becomes much more important you don't fail the next mission. Maybe something like that could work?

 

Either way, given that the mmo game will continue after the last chapter of KotFE, there has to be some canonical end that is the same for all, as others have said. So in any way that they could make choices matter, they would have to somehow give you the ability after you fail to go back and try again to make the "right" choices.

[Nothing_Shines]

If you can't provide meaningful consequences to the "choices" in your game, then you need to stop advertising your game as one where "choices matter". There are thousands of games out there that don't advertise themselves as a story focused, choices matter pillar of the gaming scene and plenty of them are really, really good and they don't have to worry about people complaining about limited story or consequences to choices made during that story.

 

They sold the game one way to ensure the lion's share of subscribers would stay subbed through the release of 4.0 with the offer of early access and vanity items along with their hugely expensive trailer and the trumpeting of story and choices. They leave all the questionable or outright bad decisions to the absolute last second and now their decision to rebrand the game as easy mode Star Wars just in time for the new movie and the hoped for deluge of new SW fans is revealed. They don't care if you unsub. They don't care if you have issues with what they've done. You are replaceable.

 

Would it have been better for the player base to know exactly what the plan was before it went live and have the company advertise 4.0 honestly? I think so. The same people would probably still be pissed and might still leave or scale back their investment in the game, but the internet rage felt would be tempered to simple annoyance or disappointment. It gets tiring hoping you aren't being lied to or having something hidden from you, sticking it out and finding out you were fooled AGAIN. Am I now supposed to resub in six months or whatever to get the last chapters and hope that choices will actually matter then?

 

I'm not mad anymore, BW. I'm disappointed.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Nothing_Shines

[Dras_Keto]

They sold the game one way to ensure the lion's share of subscribers would stay subbed through the release of 4.0 with the offer of early access and vanity items along with their hugely expensive trailer and the trumpeting of story and choices. They leave all the questionable or outright bad decisions to the absolute last second and now their decision to rebrand the game as easy mode Star Wars just in time for the new movie and the hoped for deluge of new SW fans is revealed. They don't care if you unsub. They don't care if you have issues with what they've done. You are replaceable.

 

The fact that the overwhelming majority of people didnt see this coming despite being straight up told it was going to happen by many, including myself, is ... well, its not really that surprising but it is kind of funny.

 

(Just in case someone gets a bright idea about the "ok, then why are you still here?" angle, which really is a good question: I was bribed. I unsubbed all the way back at the end of May.)

[Jadescythe]

The fact that the overwhelming majority of people didnt see this coming despite being straight up told it was going to happen by many, including myself, is ... well, its not really that surprising but it is kind of funny.

 

(Just in case someone gets a bright idea about the "ok, then why are you still here?" angle, which really is a good question: I was bribed. I unsubbed all the way back at the end of May.)

 

I don't think it was unreasonable to expect a different path to the same ending in some missions or even a completely different cutscene in some places. I think people are more upset that it is literally exactly the same as the vanilla game. The NPC makes a different comment and goes straight back to the standard dialogue.

[TheSeventhJedi]

If you can't provide meaningful consequences to the "choices" in your game, then you need to stop advertising your game as one where "choices matter". There are thousands of games out there that don't advertise themselves as a story focused, choices matter pillar of the gaming scene and plenty of them are really, really good and they don't have to worry about people complaining about limited story or consequences to choices made during that story.

 

They sold the game one way to ensure the lion's share of subscribers would stay subbed through the release of 4.0 with the offer of early access and vanity items along with their hugely expensive trailer and the trumpeting of story and choices. They leave all the questionable or outright bad decisions to the absolute last second and now their decision to rebrand the game as easy mode Star Wars just in time for the new movie and the hoped for deluge of new SW fans is revealed. They don't care if you unsub. They don't care if you have issues with what they've done. You are replaceable.

 

Would it have been better for the player base to know exactly what the plan was before it went live and have the company advertise 4.0 honestly? I think so. The same people would probably still be pissed and might still leave or scale back their investment in the game, but the internet rage felt would be tempered to simple annoyance or disappointment. It gets tiring hoping you aren't being lied to or having something hidden from you, sticking it out and finding out you were fooled AGAIN. Am I now supposed to resub in six months or whatever to get the last chapters and hope that choices will actually matter then?

 

I'm not mad anymore, BW. I'm disappointed.

 

That's exactly how I feel. I used to get mad at stupid choices, because they were hurting a game I continued to play. Now I'm sad, because I think the game I wanted to continue to play is dying and I may have to leave. There'll be no announcement or fanfare when I do, because I really think BW wants that new blood so much more. I feel like a 29-about-to-turn-30 year old woman worrying about her sugar daddy looking at some hot young thing.

[Beakertanks]

There are lot of options to kill people you could otherwise recruit

[Alssaran]

I think people just need to calm down for a moment. As was previously pointed out, some decisions matter. The...

 

 

...Emperor taking control of your body by force is one example..

 

 

Whenever I hear people mention that maybe some patience would be great others immediately go into a frency and go: "But how do you know that they will matter down the road?! What if they don't?!".

 

Then they don't. Then let us rage about that when the time comes. It is baffling to me that people always want something now and immediately. Take that scene...

 

 

...where you send your companions away or tell them to fight...

 

 

That might have consequences down the road in chapter ten and onwards. Maybe your LI died if you choose the later? Stood in front of an exploding console or something?

 

People need to calm down. There are some implications that the choices can have more of an impact down the road (see the first spoiler). If they don't we can always start flaming about that after Chapter 16 was rolled out and the season is over. But for now: Let's show a bit of patience before we buy pitchforks, hm?

[nakayo]

I feel like the they just need to reword how they market. This has been an ongoing problem with underdelivery of choices with BW since mass effect. Honestly they know that they are trolling us. Heskel even forshadows and spells it out for you when you fight him "CHOICE is.. an ILLUSION" over and over and over

[Atreiya]

Well, I very definitely had a chance to kill a former companion (technically, it was one of my SI's former companions) OR to recruit him. I chose to recruit him instead of killing him, because I don't waste human resources/alien resources. How is that a choice that doesn't matter?

 

As for massively branching narratives? That's a separate issue, and I personally have realistic expectations in these situations, so I don't expect much more than to have my choices add a certain amount of flavor for the most part. Ever play a Telltale game like TWD S1? Yeah, you have choices, but they're there for flavor, and regardless of what you do, you ultimately end up in the same place with Lee (his fate isn't up for negotiation). However, your actions and choices certainly change the tenor of the final scene with him, particularly your relationship with Clem.

 

As far as KotFE goes, one example is where you can choose to kneel before Valkorion or not. While this essentially results in the same major outcome, it's clear that kneeling or not kneeling leaves a mark on your history, and the game says something about your actions being remembered when you make your choice. Presumably, you'll either be looked upon as a hero for doing one thing or be looked at as a villain for doing the other, and perhaps people will respond to you differently in the future because of the choices that you've made.

 

That being said, it's still so early that we don't quite know what might happen later or how much impact our actions will have on relationships with other characters. If the story is solid in general with a decent amount of flavor, then that's usually good enough for me. If you came into the expansion with unrealistic pie-in-the-sky expectations, then maybe you shouldn't play the game since you're probably going to be frustrated if you think you're going to see major plot points that wildly diverge from each other. Could they still do that? Maybe, but it's really best to temper your expectations.

[teabags]

So I got through KotFE twice now with two characters making polar opposite choices. And there was really no difference by chapter 9 in outcome. The same characters died, the same characters were saved regardless of what choices I made, and in the end, it all was about the same. I really hope that with the introduction of new chapters the choices I made in KotFE have an actual impact, because the whole selling point of this expansion was "your choices matter", and so far, they don't , at all. You can be the most evil bastard in the galaxy and the nicest white knight on the planet and the outcome is nigh identical. I really enjoyed the story, I really did, but if the choices don't have a serious impact by the end of the future releases, the replayability will be just about 0.

 

Also, for the people that have imp and republic characters, don't bother playing a light side imp and a light side pub, or a dark side imp and a dark side pub, there is no difference with factions except for one alliance mission.

 

i havent started KOTFE so i dont know, but i have been reading that companions don't join you or they actually get killed off?..not even sure i want to do KOTFE

[MaximusRex]

Choices do have impact, though nothing super major at this point, at least nothing big enough for the ADHD generation to notice.

[Alssaran]

Choices do have impact, though nothing super major at this point, at least nothing big enough for the ADHD generation to notice.

 

What? Not important enough?

 

 

Being unable to refuse the Emperor control over your own characters body is not major enough? I'll explain it again: There is a major difference even now in Chapter eight. When you accept Valkorions power too often he will not let you decide whether or not to accept his power against Arcann. It will just say You have surrendered too much control to Valkorion and all those people will die regardless of LS or DS choice. With my Warrior (who did not take the offer during the Heskal/Arcann I fight) I was able to choose light side and still save all those people.

 

My Inquisitor wasn't as lucky. He went full DS and choose LS at the end. He wanted to defeat the strongest opponent by himself. Turns out Valkorion didn't let him. He simply takes his body by force and goes on a killing spree.

 

 

Now: Does that not imply that there are in fact some events down the road where making different choices can result in different events happening? The way will mostly stay the same, but maybe the outcome of season 1 will differ.

[MouseNoFour]

The ONLY thing that changes with the whole concept of ''choices matter'' is dialogue/cuscene changes.

 

Kill someone and some other random guy replaces his position, to do exactly what they would have done had you not killed them. Perhaps that guy you had the option to kill, is in control of a door you will eventually need to pass though? Yeah, if you save them, they open the door for you. You DONT save them, you stick your lightsaber into the doors controls and pop! the door opens.

 

Save someone and you get a different set of dialogue. Perfect example is in the Sith Warrior storyline, where you can spare a group of Republic soldiers. Sparing them causes them to appear during the fight with some other random Sith. But you STILL fight that Sith.

 

You have two options - like one in the KotFE story - where you can ignore something blowing up or attempt to stop it and save countless people you will never even see much less meet. It is just ''these people'' *waves hand* that you can save if you want to. Do you let it blow up or shut it down? What is the full end result at the conclusion? You move on to the next portion of the story and that is it. Sure, you may meet some people later on who will thank you if you shut down the reactor.

 

The core story elements remain the same, but the path is just slightly different and the method used to get to your destination just differs slightly.

 

Think of it this way, you need to go to X place in the town or city where you live. You can walk, ride a bike, drive a car or take public transport. You still leave your house. You still travel to the destination and you still arrive there. Those beats NEVER change. You are guaranteed to go through all three of those steps. How you get there is the only part that changes.

[MouseNoFour]

Here is a point to really think about though -

 

Having a choice REALLY matter:

-You get a call on your ship to go to an orbiting space station and defuse a bomb. You have two options you can choose from, 1. defuse the bomb or 2. ignore the bomb.

 

Defusing the bomb is the good option. Everyone lives, but in the process you LOSE your personal ship and any companions who you chose NOT to bring with you to defuse the bomb.

 

Ignoring the bomb entirely, will cause it to explode and shower the planet in radioactive muck. This makes the planet uninhabitable and prevent you from ever EVER going to the surface.

 

These are choice choices that REALLY matter, yes, but think about it.

 

If you chose the first option, you save a bunch of people on the planet you will never meet, but at the cost of most of your companions and your ship. Now you are stranded on this planet, for the rest of SWTOR's life time. You are also severely hindered when it comes to crew missions and crafting with most of your companions dead.

 

If you chose the second option and let the bomb go off, you are not unable to visit that planet. Ever. If that was a level 55-60 leveling planet, now you have to grind endless mobs and repeatable missions on the level 45-50 planet to get to 60.

 

Now you understand why choices really CANT matter as much as you would like.

Edited October 24, 2015 by MouseNoFour

[nakayo]

While you make good points Mousenofour. There are some consequences to going with the generic approach to all choices. Specifically there's an issue with unique identifiers when encountering class companions. In chapter 6 there's a companion that will act completely against their claims from previously established promises that they made if the player pursued the companion story arc to it's completion pre-KotFE.

 

I understand that diverting too far from a main story arc can cause problems and that some people may have wanted to kill said companion depending on their affinity but it defeats the purpose of creating characters with the intent to have a user base bond and feel invested in them. This isn't the only case where that happens either it's just the most drastic.

 

For the most part when you encounter previous companions in KotFE (during main story not alliance) there's just an indifferent nod of acknowledgement and then immediately the companion reverts into a complete stranger again. It cheapens and trivializes every relationship that the writers build up between the player character and their class companions when they are 90% treated like any other player character that never met them before.

Edited October 24, 2015 by nakayo

[mmmbuddah]

What? Not important enough?

 

 

Being unable to refuse the Emperor control over your own characters body is not major enough? I'll explain it again: There is a major difference even now in Chapter eight. When you accept Valkorions power too often he will not let you decide whether or not to accept his power against Arcann. It will just say You have surrendered too much control to Valkorion and all those people will die regardless of LS or DS choice. With my Warrior (who did not take the offer during the Heskal/Arcann I fight) I was able to choose light side and still save all those people.

 

My Inquisitor wasn't as lucky. He went full DS and choose LS at the end. He wanted to defeat the strongest opponent by himself. Turns out Valkorion didn't let him. He simply takes his body by force and goes on a killing spree.

 

 

Now: Does that not imply that there are in fact some events down the road where making different choices can result in different events happening? The way will mostly stay the same, but maybe the outcome of season 1 will differ.

 

No one said that there were no differences in dialogue, we are talking about no palpable difference in the end outcome. I understand we are only half way through, but being halfway through and there being 0 difference in outcome is kind of reason for concern.