Level synch = death of SWTOR

[IanArgent]

It's not "free", it still takes time.

 

As for GTN, the simple solution is to just not buy stuff that you consider overpriced.

 

It takes less time with every bump of the level cap.

[DanNV]

If you read through the threads you'll see that it's the same group of people arguing for and against. No majority not even a major minority on either side, just a small group of people typing a LOT.

[IanArgent]

And like other similar examples, that can be solved situationally, without needing carte blanche level scaling.

 

Black Hole isn't the only example, it's just the biggest. CZ-198 will be another when the level cap goes to 65; as will Oricon. We don't need band-aid solutions

[Elracor]

I waiting for that. There are a few things we could point to. We have examples from bolster in warzones to tactical flashpoints to show than people of different levels can have their stats adjusted by different ammounts.

 

But more importantly we have the Makeb bolster to show that peoople can exist in the same same environment while some of them have their stats adjusted, while others don't (those who didn't switch on the bolster)

 

Essentially all we are talking about here is the reverse. Some people having their stats lowered while others don't.

 

Of course I don't know but I think based on what we have seen before it reasonable to believe it is plausible

 

As far as I know the Bolster in Warzones and Tactical flashpoints are not toggles and the feature you are asking for is a toggle. I'm also pretty sure none of the current bolsters (not even Tact Fp) changes your actual level (assuming 'Combat level' is not the same as level since it's named 'Combat level' and not just level).

 

I actually didn't know about this as I don't do conquest. I suppose there are a number of options here, they could leave them as high level (so you turn off level sync when doing conquest), make them unattackable by people with level sync turned off, or even go the whole hog and have people with level sync turned off go into a different instance (like we get multiple instances on planets already). They could have them as high level in the level sync off instance and lower level in the sync on instance. Or maybe people who actually do conquest and understand the system can come up with something better.

 

Would you believe in 100 something pages this is the first time I've seen something mentioned that could actually be slightly complicated by level sync being optional, but ways round it are not insurmountable.

 

Leaving Commanders and Outpost guards at high level will just reverse the issue, forcing people who do want to level sync to not do so.

 

Making them unattackable by non-syncers still doesn't solve the problem of Sync being optional, you're forced to use Sync to take part in this part of the game.

 

Throwing non-syncers into a different instance doesn't solve the issue either IMO. Either it leaves room for exploits (you boosting lowlvls to get e.g. Commanders and Outpost guards much easier than intended for easy rewards) or that you can't help people because they won't get rewards.

It also makes the whole instancing system more complex and will require mobs (again mainly Commanders and Outpost Guards) to have different levels depending on the type of instance.

 

Does it matter? If a couple of friends want to work together and game the system like this, so what. MMO's have a long history of people playing outside the box, good luck to them, doesn't bother me. If it really is though to be a problem, then guess we are back to separate instance for those with sync off.

 

I think it does matter. It leaves room for exploiting and gaining lvl 65 relevant gear (+ credits and Basic comms) with much less effort than intended.

 

Your asking lots of questions that I don't really care about. I'm bothered about existing playstyles not being taken away, where you seem to be looking towards how people will abuse (if you see it like that) the new system.

 

You might not care about those things but I bet the Devs do. If the new system becomes a source of abuse (e.g. credit farming) it becomes an issue for pretty much all players.

 

You misunderstood what I meant. Perhaps I should have said "It would need a very good explanation from a dev

for me to accept it as actually true". Of course they don't have to explain anything, but then I don't have to believe them either.

 

Well if people don't want to believe the Devs I'm not sure what they can do about it. As I see it, you're basically assuming they're maliciously keeping you from getting the features you want which is IMO unreasonable. I'm sure the Devs want to please as many players as possible inside the boundaries they're given by management.

Edited October 3, 2015 by MFollin

[-Spc]

Leaving Commanders and Outpost guards at high level will just reverse the issue, forcing people who do want to level sync to not do so.

 

Making them unattackable by non-syncers still doesn't solve the problem of Sync being optional, you're forced to use Sync to take part in this part of the game.

 

Throwing non-syncers into a different instance doesn't solve the issue either IMO. Either it leaves room for exploits (you boosting lowlvls to get e.g. Commanders and Outpost guards much easier than intended for easy rewards) or that you can't help people because they won't get rewards.

It also makes the whole instancing system more complex and will require mobs (again mainly Commanders and Outpost Guards) to have different levels depending on the type of instance.

Then remove level sync and it solves everything.

[Heaviermetal]

Best Decisions EVER, and the game will finally be rejuvenated because of it. No point in staying in the old ways of typical MMO mechanics, time to push ahead and make SWTOR get with the times, which it will do, starting with level sync! Edited October 3, 2015 by Heaviermetal

[IanArgent]

And this means everyone will go and only do level 65 stuff and get even more credits.

They will be able to get 100% use of their HM/NiM gear there and all other old planets will be empty and finding a group on old planets will be impossible, because no one will do that content anymore.

I will do the same, only level 65 missions nothing else, i don't want to go back to missions i've done 3000 times already and get nothing from it while it will take me 7 times longer to complete a simple mission there.

 

How many people on one of the original threads complained that they never do Yavin because they actually have to engage with the mobs and would rather do CZ-198 or BH. The three best credit/minute daily areas are not at level cap; and 2 of them are pathetically easy at level cap

[Warrgames]

And now we enter Armchair Dev territory...

 

Lets go on with your example anyway. Say it's added a toggle like the GSI buff. The GSI buff can be removed with a rightclick. This opens op for abuse as you could then just initiate combat with the buff, then turn it off and kill your target (e.g. the last boss in a H4) easily.

That means they need to implement a lot of exploit prevention and test it.

Alternatively if you can't turn off the toggle we're basically back to mandatory territory again.

 

It also doesn't solve the issue of having mobs like Commanders who should(?) be killable with levelsync yet without being exploitable by non-lvl-syncers.

 

I'm armchair dev because I understand math? What level sync and GSI on makeb is nothing more than an algorithm. Than again I doubt you can add 2+2 so for me to fully explain it is pointless. I'll try and use small words for you.

 

If the boss does not see the presents of the "buff" when it dies no level sync rewards. It not a one time check. Every time a mob attacks a player or a player attacks a mob all the player stats and mob stats are compared. Hard to exploit it. If you don't meet the requirement at the end of the fight you don't get the rewards. You get the rewards that you meet requirement. Sorry there is no way to exploit a toggle.

[Elracor]

Then remove level sync and it solves everything.

 

Again, that is a solution I don't agree with and seemingly many others here don't agree with.

 

Optional > Mandatory > No-lvl-sync-at-all.

[kodrac]

You still doing it. It's a bit like saying "Playing GTA is all about doing the story" when countless people just mess around in the sandbox and never get round to doing the story.

 

Progression is one thing to do in an RPG, but it's not the only thing. Are the people who RP and never get round to levelling their character doing it wrong too? What about the people who like to craft? Or play the GTN? None of those things are 'progression' but it doesn't matter as long as people are enjoying their time. Some people are entirely focused on max level, max equipment, hard mode ops so are they playing it properly? What about those who never finish their class story because they exclusively PVP?

 

RPG's are whatever the player wants it to be about.

 

OK how do I explain this? In Diablo I mindlessly destroyed thousands of NPCs but I got levels and skills by doing it. In SWG I did the same thing and got XP that I could buy skill boxes with. This game I do the same and get the same, but only if it;s on-level. Mindlessly blowing through grey NPCs does not progress my character. That's the only point I was trying to make there.

 

You said that was a playstyle (granted, one I admittedly don't understand). How does that playstyle progress your character?

[ZavienUK]

OK let's say there's a toggle. You know as well as I do people abuse the system (any system), exploit, etc. They have to be able to plan for that one bad apple that's going to ruin it for the bunch. I call these people lowest common denominators. If this is optional, one of these lowest common denominators will abuse the system to get max reward with no effort. i.e. "You mean I can turn this off and have no fear of dyeing - and still get the lewts? or "I can turn this off and still go to lowbie planets and still gank n00bs without fear of retribution?"

 

They have to plan for these clowns. I have to do it in my job too (Network Design). It's a pain in the ***, but it comes with the territory. Sucks for the majority of people that don't abuse it, but it is what it is, as they say. And that's why I don't think they can make it optional. Because of ***holes.

 

EDIT: That and there's a rep system tied into it. And more options usually means more confusion which means more **** ups.

 

I guess we just fundamentally disagree. I don't believe in designing around the lowest common denominator. Let a few people 'cheat', it's better than penalising everybody else. If people want to cheese rewards, how much does that actually affect me? If they want to cheapen their experience, who am I to judge. And in any case we have talked about turning the rewards off if you have level sync turned off anyway.

 

This new system as optional can't be any worse than the situation today. People are now saying if people could turn off level sync they could gank people, well yeah they can do that already. If they want to fix that I think there are better ways than a mandatory level sync on everybody (including on pve servers - the majority) all of the time.

 

I couldn't disagree more with your last paragraph. Remind me of the adage "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". I'd rather there be room for the 'bad' people to abuse than for the 'good' people to be penalised.

Edited October 3, 2015 by ZavienUK

[kodrac]

I guess we just fundamentally disagree. I don't believe in designing around the lowest common denominator. Let a few people 'cheat', it's better than penalising everybody else.

 

Then we agree to disagree, /shakehands

[-Spc]

Again, that is a solution I don't agree with and seemingly many others here don't agree with.

 

Optional > Mandatory > No-lvl-sync-at-all.

Then why didn't you quit the game ? it's been like this since the start of star wars and it didn't bother you that you're not level synced ?

[TravelersWay]

Black Hole isn't the only example, it's just the biggest. CZ-198 will be another when the level cap goes to 65; as will Oricon. We don't need band-aid solutions

 

They aren't band-aid solutions, any more than optional PvP toggles are on PvE servers and the bolster system is.

 

Best Decisions EVER, and the game will finally be rejuvenated because of it. No point in staying in the old ways of typical MMO mechanics, time to push ahead and make SWTOR get with the times, which it will do, starting with level sync!

If they were truly getting with the times, then it would be an optional system, as several other games already have.

Edited October 3, 2015 by TravelersWay

[Elracor]

I'm armchair dev because I understand math? What level sync and GSI on makeb is nothing more than an algorithm. Than again I doubt you can add 2+2 so for me to fully explain it is pointless. I'll try and use small words for you.

 

Belittling me doesn't help you here. You're still making assumptions about the Level sync without having any grounds for it.

 

If the boss does not see the presents of the "buff" when it dies no level sync rewards. It not a one time check. Every time a mob attacks a player or a player attacks a mob all the player stats and mob stats are compared. Hard to exploit it. If you don't meet the requirement at the end of the fight you don't get the rewards. You get the rewards that you meet requirement. Sorry there is no way to exploit a toggle.

 

Again, you assume the boss can do this "seeing the buff" and affect the rewards without having grounds for it. You don't know how the engine works. You don't know how many (if any) changes need to be implemented (and tested) for this to actually work. That's why this is Armchair Dev in the works.

 

Even the current bolsters have been exploitable to some degree, just ask in the PvP forum. Concluding there's no way to exploit the toggle without even seeing it or its implementation is just naive.

 

Then why didn't you quit the game ? it's been like this since the start of star wars and it didn't bother you that you're not level synced ?

 

Well I did quit the game but not for that reason. I'm currently playing SWTOR because I like it. Level sync will make me like it more. Adding Level sync and suddenly removing it for very little reason would annoy me.

Edited October 3, 2015 by MFollin

[tavrinDosa]

So why not make it optional?

 

Mandatory Level sync cant be swayed by the opinion of RPers and RP supporters. This game isnt a sandbox. Its main culture is on the back of content that the developers create not the players. sure thats a phenomenal byproduct but not at the cost of developer created content. Level sync is going to be the backbone of so much new content. Randomly Generated events on any planet is the first thing to come to mind. I'm really sorry to piss on your bonfire, but being able to meditate on a the perfect looking rock for a screenshot while you rp with you buddies isnt a good enough reason to make a content creating game development optional. All players must adhere for something like this to work, just like color tv's

Edited October 3, 2015 by tavrinDosa

[Kiesu]

Then why didn't you quit the game ? it's been like this since the start of star wars and it didn't bother you that you're not level synced ?

Thinking current system is worst out of the other options means you should have quitted ages ago? I guess you only played the game because it had lvls then, lol.

[ZavienUK]

I've got an answer, but you won't like it. It's the Black Hole problem. Black Hole has always been a good place to farm credits. But with the increases in level cap, the mobs can't meaningfully hurt you, but the credit return is still notable. It's an extreme example, but that's one reason why optional level scaling isn't a good idea.

 

And, yes, "free" credit farming does affect me, by credit inflation. If I want to obtain stuff on the GTN, I gotta compete with the "free" credit farmers.

 

If you think this is actually a problem / become enough of a problem with there are easy ways to fix this. Reduce the credit reward. There. Done. But actually most games handle this by actually allowing inflation to a point. They have the higher level stuff reward higher levels of credits. The effect of inflation then makes these lower level dalies less attractive (because while they reward the same amount of credits, those credits aren't worth as much any more) .

[Max_Killjoy]

Best Decisions EVER, and the game will finally be rejuvenated because of it. No point in staying in the old ways of typical MMO mechanics, time to push ahead and make SWTOR get with the times, which it will do, starting with level sync!

 

Rejuvenated?

 

Maybe for you. For me, it's just another reduction in what I'm going to bother doing in the game. No more bounty week, for example -- not going to slog through agroed mobs on Tatooine or DK to track down the kingpin, that's for damn certain.

[Max_Killjoy]

It takes less time with every bump of the level cap.

 

So what? If someone enjoys a relaxing stomp through Black Hole, then let them have their fun.

 

Or are you concerned that someone might be having badwrongfun in a game?

[kodrac]

If they were truly getting with the times, then it would be an optional system, as several other games already have.

 

Can you give me an example an MMO that has the option? Not sarcasm, this is the only MMO I play atm and haven't kept up with the news of other games in development and whatnot. It might help to have something to compare it to.

[Faelandaea]

And this means everyone will go and only do level 65 stuff and get even more credits.

They will be able to get 100% use of their HM/NiM gear there and all other old planets will be empty and finding a group on old planets will be impossible, because no one will do that content anymore.

I will do the same, only level 65 missions nothing else, i don't want to go back to missions i've done 3000 times already and get nothing from it while it will take me 7 times longer to complete a simple mission there.

 

That's normal though. People don't want to go back to lower planets to randomly group. It never happened and it never will. This is an MMO. You will ALWAYS have PLENTY of people leveling in your range wanting a group. The sync has NOTHING to do with groups at all. Even before the sync, once my character was max level, all i did was max level stuff unless I had a friend that needed help in the lower areas. And if that friend needs help, then I can help him regardless of the sync because my gear is already a precedence to my power and ability, making me not have any handicap or issue while sync'd. Same with skills - since we keep all our high level skills - no problem.

 

And for those saying "OMG now I need to find a group instead of soloing x-content", that is just utter BS. If you are properly geared, you can STILL solo ANYTHING in this game - the ONLY exception being OPs that have puzzles that require multiple players to be in specific positions at a time to properly solve the puzzle.

 

Sorry, but even with the Sync I bet there will still be level 60+ characters able to solo a WB.

 

But hey, we know everything before we even experience it, right? Lots of people said "Let's try it when it comes out and see if it is really that bad." I agree with them. Let's try it before we throw on tin foil hats and panic over all of this.

[ZavienUK]

Black Hole isn't the only example, it's just the biggest. CZ-198 will be another when the level cap goes to 65; as will Oricon. We don't need band-aid solutions

 

I don't see why this was ever a big deal. Do what other games do and allow inflation to be the solution. If current dailies only reward the same amount of credits as lower level dailies why wouldn't people do the easier ones?

[-Spc]

In EVE ONLINE you can do level 1 mission in battleship if you want to and it goes so fast you spend 20 seconds to finish it.

 

So basically this in swtor means level 65 character doing level 10 missions.

[Quraswren]

And now we enter Armchair Dev territory...

 

Lets go on with your example anyway. Say it's added a toggle like the GSI buff. The GSI buff can be removed with a rightclick. This opens op for abuse as you could then just initiate combat with the buff, then turn it off and kill your target (e.g. the last boss in a H4) easily.

That means they need to implement a lot of exploit prevention and test it.

Not really. Just have the missions tied to the down leveling debuff. Lose the debuff, lose the missions. The only exploitable part is if they "F" up coding but since they have something similar in bolster and GSI, it shouldnt be this over the top task.

 

It also doesn't solve the issue of having mobs like Commanders who should(?) be killable with levelsync yet without being exploitable by non-lvl-syncers.

Use the same formula they use for mobs that spawn on who hits them. Make it spawn on the highest level that ever hits them once pulled though. Or they spawn to the highest level of the group. Would stop a low level pulling and a high level killing. Multiple ways to solve that issue.

Hell, add in that mechanic for the boss fight that if someone else tries to grief you and not in your group, let it auto kill them as well. Most of that is already in the game in some capacity.

 

This didn't need to be forced on every player for any of the examples you mentioned.