Operations and Flashpoints in Fallen Empire

[Khaleijo]

Agree, for all the reasons you state.

 

Plus the reality that not all of us have been here since launch, or came here as already experienced raiders and MMOers from WoW or any other game. We simply haven't done all the current ops at their current levels. There's also a learning curve involved, and that is developed by joining an op at a level below yours so you don't wipe just trying to get from one side of the screen to the other.

 

There are plenty of people with alts, trying to move them along, too. You might be the best DPS on your team, but now you need a healer or even moreso, a tank. They are different roles for a reason and they require training, too. I am looking forward to learning/doing tanking but I don't want to have to do it at L65! And don't tell me OPs tanking is just like story content or FP tanking because it ain't. That's kinda the point, right?

That the reason why i fear meeting the new generations of players coming in KotFE, as there is no waiting time and no effort involved to run Solo mode almost no one who is new to the MMO and group thing will run flashpoints the old way with a trinity group.

But that also means that they will not learn anything about how to play in a group, what the roles do and what is important about boss mechanics. You already don't learn much of this in tacticals, but with the solomode droid you can just stand by and watch it doing everything for you, you learn nothing of the things that are important for HM FPs and operations later on.

The current learning curve is doing the flashpoints at level learn simple mechanics there and meet more diffucult challenges at later levels and hm FPs before getting into SM ops. You can already tell who skipped all that with 12xXP and KDY. But the general experience level of players about their class and basic mechanics will decrease even more.

With these changes lots of players will get to 60/65 and want to run the ops too without having any clue... and will be flamed, kicked or just get stamped into the ground by the bosses that are at level again and therefore more challenging than now and they have no idea what to do, not even the basics because they never had to care about any this.

 

I don't mind the scaling of the old operations that much, it is great for players who missed them. But as a player who is subbed since release i played all of them very often, both flashpoints and operations. I like to run the old operations with friends again from time to time for the decorations or just being nostalgic, or when we have no motivation for the current raid tier but, that is like watching a great movie again and put it on the shelf for months or years and watching new stuff again.

 

While redoing the same stuff is part of playing MMOs the prospect of having to do all of this again after doing it for years now, because there is nothing new to do, is very disappointing and i'm seriously thinking about how i will play SWTOR in the future or if i will at all.

Story will keep me interested for a while, but what keeps me subbing is playing with my guild and friends and have fun with playing new stuff with them, trying to find out what to do. No matter if story, FPs or operations or something like the shroud/makrobinocular quests, but it seems the game is directed more and more towards solo play. It was already a punch in the face that everything important is class story now meaning that you can't even play it together with different classes anymore. For me it isn't as much fun to play the same game side by side as it is playing together and for a true solo experience, there are other games i would play instead of SWTOR.

[Rafaman]

It's about it being NEW, learning a new fight, seeing a new room. Simply tuning up an encounter that has been done to death is not new. I am assuming you are not a progression raider otherwise you would get this. Heck I am assuming group content isn't your thing or you would get it because in the end it actually has nothing to do with progression raiding, it has everything to do with simple end game dynamics.

 

For all the people that have said "they have been making an MMO for 3 years now and have a new crew so saying 'they are new to MMO's' doesn't cut it anymore" this kinda proves y'all wrong because they clearly don't understand the dynamics of an MMO. Maybe the old peole being gone is part of the problem because those that learned the lesson of their history may be gone.

 

You assumed wrong. lol. Would like me to post my Acheevies?

 

Scaling Up Ops>New Difficultyl>New Progression

 

No, progression for me is more than just knowing the mechanics, it is being able to achieve a clear at the highest difficulty. If you ever ran EC NiM at level 50 you would know this. The satisfaction isn't in going over something new, it is in being able to achieve something that is very difficult.

 

Show me when you have cleared EC NiM at level 65 then you can complain about there being no progression.

[Raansu]

With the expansion being free. Would it really shock you if say, 6 months after FE launches we get an OPs in the cartel market?

 

Sadly I wouldn't put it past them, its not like they care about their subscribers.

[Veerlo]

"We know that many players love our Operations and look forward to the introduction of new challenges, however with Knights of the Fallen Empire there will not be any new Operations."

 

What i get from that is that there won't be any OPS at 4.0 Never it says it will be until 5.0 Maybe i'm wrong but i dont, see in there that there is no plan to release ops till 5.0

 

Maybe if they said that OPS are in the works to launch between 4.0 and 5.0 the hype would be positive instead of negative

[Glower]

I want a reward for my real level in solo-modo flashpoints, maybe small box with random loot as a reward.

[Jadescythe]

What i get from that is that there won't be any OPS at 4.0 Never it says it will be until 5.0 Maybe i'm wrong but i dont, see in there that there is no plan to release ops till 5.0

 

Maybe if they said that OPS are in the works to launch between 4.0 and 5.0 the hype would be positive instead of negative

 

There is no new story being released between October and January. Even if they put a new Op in with the story release, that would leave another 6 months before it's added. And if they were planning to release one in January, they definitely would have mentioned it.

[VanderII]

"We know that many players love our Operations and look forward to the introduction of new challenges, however with Knights of the Fallen Empire there will not be any new Operations."

 

I don't read we will never see a new operation in the future, where is this part?

Edited July 9, 2015 by VanderII

[Halinalle]

It's about it being NEW, learning a new fight, seeing a new room.

 

Last time I checked I had 0% of operation achievements...

[JSitruc]

I don't read we will never see a new operation in the future, where is this part?

 

im not sure anyone is thinking that there "will never" be a new operation. Its more about for the foreseeable future (until close to the end of 2016) that there wont be a new operation. I find this to be the case and I am skeptical that I will have a reason to continue my sub.

 

Last time I checked I had 0% of operation achievements...

 

than you are not the target of his post and you are also not the target of more than 50% of this blog....

Edited July 9, 2015 by JSitruc

[MillionsKNives]

I don't read we will never see a new operation in the future, where is this part?

 

It's the part where it will be at least a year since the last ops at the earliest, assuming that 4.1 contains a new ops. Much more likely it will be even longer than that. New ops in the pipeline doesn't help if they're more than half a year away.

[Lhotus]

Great news! I always found it hard to join ops groups, since i dont know tactics for most of them and dont have time to join a serious guild. I prefer solo so this will work out great for me! Im especially looking forward to the new story, it sounds really awesome

[Alssaran]

It would thrill me if people finally realized that, given what we know by now about KotFE, that Bioware is trying to actually milk the cow they previously advertised with this game.

 

I have to admit that I came to this game for Star Wars. But what actually made me stay was story. I didn't come here for running operations. I didn't come here for active and competitive PvP. There is still LoL and WoW for that. Which is a point later on. The problem with the current MMO market is the following: The prime of hardcore raiding is very much over. I loved raiding HM Ulduar, Sunwell and Naxxramas pre WotLK back in the day. But that's all it is, back in the day. For all I care about, I could not again get invested into a game that requires me to invest multiple evenings a week just to grind that next gearscore point. I don't have the time to do it, I quite frankly don't want to do it. There's many people on my FL who agree. That's why I love this new move. A new story to jump into. Having some Operations to run I didn't do before (KP, EC HM and stuff), but not being required to do so.

 

Another thing to realize is that Bioware is making a large chunk of their money of the CM now. It seems to me that Bioware is aiming to apply a "Sub every few months once, otherwise buy unlocks" mechanic. A lot of income is generated through the CM. But people who are F2P might also buy from the CM. They could start to release more direct purchase products on the CM, making it appealing for newcommers to go preferred. By offering a new chapter each month, they essentially want to keep the casual story crowd paying.

 

With WoW introducing the WoW token, with many MMO games going F2P in the past few months or soon going to be. Well, people should realize by now: The subscription model is declining. Micro-transactions make more money than anything else. Riot Games offers only re-skins and new colours for money, yet they make a ton of money. We subscribers do make a good portion of the game, and a good portion will stay with KotFE. But main revenue is generated over the CM, which people can buy from regardless of F2P or Subscriber. Even those F2P who only stay for a few months can generate revenue with CM purchases. The CM is cheap, it doesn't create a comittment. 500 for a lightsaber...that's 6€. 6€ doesn't sound much for many people. They buy one. Now imagine that on a scale of a newly released item. 50.000 people buying a 5€ item. Bioware has suddenly made 250.000€ without spending too much money. I think that's the reason Bioware doesn't care one bit about veteran subscribers: We are simply not worth the trouble anymore, if we want them to invest into us more than once every year.

 

The point of this: I just want to point out how Bioware probably doesn't care about your subscription running out, going away. Just saying.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Alssaran

[Saelowyn]

Wow, as someone who raided progression since launch, I also have no desire to go through old content that I spent so much time on. This is really a huge let down. It will be the icing on the cake for many to finally end their sub.

 

This will be good for newer players who didnt get to explore these raids, but what about long time loyal players? Screw them I guess.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Saelowyn

[MillionsKNives]

It would thrill me if people finally realized that, given what we know by now about KotFE, that Bioware is trying to actually milk the cow they previously advertised with this game.

 

I have to admit that I came to this game for Star Wars. But what actually made me stay was story. I didn't come here for running operations. I didn't come here for active and competitive PvP. There is still LoL and WoW for that. Which is a point later on. The problem with the current MMO market is the following: The prime of hardcore raiding is very much over. I loved raiding HM Ulduar, Sunwell and Naxxramas pre WotLK back in the day. But that's all it is, back in the day. For all I care about, I could not again get invested into a game that requires me to invest multiple evenings a week just to grind that next gearscore point. I don't have the time to do it, I quite frankly don't want to do it. There's many people on my FL who agree. That's why I love this new move. A new story to jump into. Having some Operations to run I didn't do before (KP, EC HM and stuff), but not being required to do so.

 

Another thing to realize is that Bioware is making a large chunk of their money of the CM now. It seems to me that Bioware is aiming to apply a "Sub every few months once, otherwise buy unlocks" mechanic. A lot of income is generated through the CM. But people who are F2P might also buy from the CM. They could start to release more direct purchase products on the CM, making it appealing for newcommers to go preferred. By offering a new chapter each month, they essentially want to keep the casual story crowd paying.

 

With WoW introducing the WoW token, with many MMO games going F2P in the past few months or soon going to be. Well, people should realize by now: The subscription model is declining. Micro-transactions make more money than anything else. Riot Games offers only re-skins and new colours for money, yet they make a ton of money. We subscribers do make a good portion of the game, and a good portion will stay with KotFE. But main revenue is generated over the CM, which people can buy from regardless of F2P or Subscriber. Even those F2P who only stay for a few months can generate revenue with CM purchases. The CM is cheap, it doesn't create a comittment. 500 for a lightsaber...that's 6€. 6€ doesn't sound much for many people. They buy one. Now imagine that on a scale of a newly released item. 50.000 people buying a 5€ item. Bioware has suddenly made 250.000€ without spending too much money. I think that's the reason Bioware doesn't care one bit about veteran subscribers: We are simply not worth the trouble anymore, if we want them to invest into us more than once every year.

 

Story is great, but you can only do it so many times before it becomes unplayable. I have about 14 level 50+ characters because I love the story, but I would have left a long time ago if I didn't run operations with my guild. Story can only get you so far if you want to retain players.

[tmwfte]

This is a slap in the face to slaps in the face!

[DarthDymond]

Not surprised by anything here and happy with most of it.

 

The listed FPs that are getting solo-modes are exactly the ones I wanted to see it for, so that has made me very happy, and I like that there is now level-scaling for all FPs (except Colicoid - is it the turret fight that makes it so hard for them to retune? I never understood what the actual issue has been with that one).

 

Only thing left on my story progression wish-list now is a Revan-style solo option to wrap up Oricon in place of DF or DP, but if those Ops are now available for everyone from level 50-65, then it sounds like they'll be easy enough to get when their days come up on Group Finder.

 

My sympathies for the people who care a lot about new Ops, not surprised to see people leaving over it, but there are plenty of Raid-oriented MMOs out there for them to enjoy instead. I enjoy Ops enough to run them once to see them and then I'll jump in with my Guild if they need a fill and I'm in the mood, but overall it won't negatively impact my enjoyment that we don't have any new ones coming.

[Ghisallo]

You assumed wrong. lol. Would like me to post my Acheevies?

 

Scaling Up Ops>New Difficultyl>New Progression

 

No, progression for me is more than just knowing the mechanics, it is being able to achieve a clear at the highest difficulty. If you ever ran EC NiM at level 50 you would know this. The satisfaction isn't in going over something new, it is in being able to achieve something that is very difficult.

 

Show me when you have cleared EC NiM at level 65 then you can complain about there being no progression.

 

Well then you are in the minority, the exception that proves the rule. Why do I say this? My First degree was in history and history is actually a useful tool in the right circumstances as it helps us learn from our mistakes.

 

They already, to an extent, tried that. What happened? They went from, literally millions of subscriptions to under 500k subscriptions. According to their own press releases and presentations at Trade Conferences like GDC they stemmed the tied of subscription loss by introducing the end game and "community" feature they failed to launch with. Why did this stem the tide? Because most end game players need new things to keep their interest.

 

 

My sympathies for the people who care a lot about new Ops, not surprised to see people leaving over it, but there are plenty of Raid-oriented MMOs out there for them to enjoy instead. I enjoy Ops enough to run them once to see them and then I'll jump in with my Guild if they need a fill and I'm in the mood, but overall it won't negatively impact my enjoyment that we don't have any new ones coming.

 

quoting you Darth because the below kinda applies to both

 

I honestly think they are scrambling at this point. I don't care what industry you are in but when you see a company that says one thing....

 

" We had all those people at the endgame and suddenly certain things like having only one Operation... become much bigger challenges than what we thought they were going to be."

 

and now...

 

"We know that many players love our Operations and look forward to the introduction of new challenges, however with Knights of the Fallen Empire there will not be any new Operations."

 

You have to scratch your head and say " are they desperate?", at least if we looked at from a purely logical standpoint and not with the sense of emotional investment that an MMO can engender.

 

The only other logical explanation I can come up with is that the Devs are trying to say "see BW fans we are still a BIOWARE game!!!!!" as if a BW game HAS to be 100% story driven. Sorry but it doesn't. DICE does everything from action adventure, to FPS to freaking Shrek games. Blizzard is a heck of a lot more than WoW.

 

In either case... desperation or misguided notion that BW means a specific genre regardless... this is a HUGE gamble imo and may well blow up in their faces. Likely not until a couple months after the new movie launches, and I bet they are to an extent counting on that so that the stock holders are happy BUT we are the ones that will pay the price if/when the gamble fails to pay off in the long run.

 

Sorry but 2 years does not make such ingrained player dynamics change...so the reasons for their plan are questionable at best.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[TUXs]

Well then you are in the minority, the exception that proves the rule. Why do I say this? My First degree was in history and history is actually a useful tool in the right circumstances as it helps us learn from our mistakes.

 

They already, to an extent, tried that. What happened? They went from, literally millions of subscriptions to under 500k subscriptions. According to their own press releases and presentations at Trade Conferences like GDC they stemmed the tied of subscription loss by introducing the end game and "community" feature they failed to launch with. Why did this stem the tide? Because most end game players need new things to keep their interest.

 

quoting you Darth because the below kinda applies to both

 

I honestly think they are scrambling at this point. I don't care what industry you are in but when you see a company that says one thing....

 

and now...

 

You have to scratch your head and say " are they desperate?", at least if we looked at from a purely logical standpoint and not with the sense of emotional investment that an MMO can engender.

 

The only other logical explanation I can come up with is that the Devs are trying to say "see BW fans we are still a BIOWARE game!!!!!" as if a BW game HAS to be 100% story driven. Sorry but it doesn't. DICE does everything from action adventure, to FPS to freaking Shrek games. Blizzard is a heck of a lot more than WoW.

 

In either case... desperation or misguided notion that BW means a specific genre regardless... this is a HUGE gamble imo and may well blow up in their faces. Likely not until a couple months after the new movie launches, and I bet they are to an extent counting on that so that the stock holders are happy BUT we are the ones that will pay the price if/when the gamble fails to pay off in the long run.

 

Sorry but 2 years does not make such ingrained player dynamics change...so the reasons for their plan are questionable at best.

Great post!!! Complete and utter mismanagement imo.

[Alssaran]

Story is great, but you can only do it so many times before it becomes unplayable. I have about 14 level 50+ characters because I love the story, but I would have left a long time ago if I didn't run operations with my guild. Story can only get you so far if you want to retain players.

 

Retaining players only goes so far. Retaining players every three months swallows more money than entertaining new players every six months. Of course, the revenue of a larger stable playerbase is higher, but it eventually is more costly to sustain.

[menofhorror]

Story is great, but you can only do it so many times before it becomes unplayable. I have about 14 level 50+ characters because I love the story, but I would have left a long time ago if I didn't run operations with my guild. Story can only get you so far if you want to retain players.

 

That is true. But perhaps its really time to take a break from this game and indeed check out other MMOs with your gild where there is a better focus on endgame content. As much as I like swtor its also good to take longer breaks and check out other MMOs.

 

Maybe this approach will be a very good thing for swtor. Maybe it will be a very bad thing. Only time will tell.

[Aries_cz]

I think that what they try to do is fix the underlying issues with Operations and Flashpoints, and that is a lot more important for the future. If it manages to do even third of what LFR managed to do in WoW, it will help tremendously, as Operations are not interesting to great many people...

 

It is a bummer that there will be no new map on KotFE launch, but fixing a system is sometimes more important than adding a new hat on top of it...

[Rujopetteri]

To me this sounds great. Especially those solo mode FP's.

 

One thing i'd like to suggest though:

 

Could it please be possible to use a team of companions on those solo mode FP's instead of that awful (and mute) god mode robot?

 

On another note, i find it funny reading the comments like "BW certainly doesn't know what their players want..." etc after these news. I'm quite certain they actually do have a lot of data available about what the players actually like to do in their game and they base their upgrades on that data, instead of the extremely vocal minority that frequents the forums.

 

For me personally more story content, more soloable stuff AND more FP's available at max level are exactly what the doctor ordered. I don't really care much about ops. If it becomes easier to find a group (without a majority of people in it being complete a-holes) for them after these changes, maybe i'll finally start to bother doing them.

[Blitz-wing]

What Nightmare Dread Fortress & Dread Palace are being scaled? Buffed or Unbuffed???????

 

Sadly this scaled operations are going to be simple & easy compared to when they were released. The new abilities & increased mobility nerfs these ops SO HARD!

 

Preferred status raiding.....

[Darththirdeye]

Looks like PvE'ers are getting the same treatment as PvP'ers. Zero new content. Welcome to the club. /hugs

[g_land]

Retaining players only goes so far. Retaining players every three months swallows more money than entertaining new players every six months. Of course, the revenue of a larger stable playerbase is higher, but it eventually is more costly to sustain.

 

But here is the issue, unless they change how their refer a friend works all you need to do is click a referral link every 97 days... no one actually needs to subscribe as long as you bought the SoR expansion.