Attention: Marauder Changes Inbound

[qwopicus]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=807140

 

For those who are too lazy to click the link:

Anni is receiving some changes that will bring it closer to the pre-3.0 state. DoT durations are being shortened, and it will be easier to get extra rage.

The two Undying Rage utilities have been rolled into one and replaced by a new one:

Predation no longer is tied to Fury, and has a 30sec coodown instead.

 

I'm extremely pleased to see any changes to the marauder, and the Anni ones are great. I think 30 seconds for predation is excessive, as you can get it faster just from just the fury from defensive forms. The change to resolve could also help us. Thoughts?

Edited April 16, 2015 by qwopicus

[Emperor-Norton]

Anni is receiving some changes that will bring it closer to the pre-3.0 state. DoT durations are being shortened, and it will be easier to get extra rage.

The two Undying Rage utilities have been rolled into one and replaced by a new one:

Predation no longer is tied to Fury, and has a 30sec coodown instead.

 

I'm extremely pleased to see any changes to the marauder, and the Anni ones are great. I think 30 seconds for predation is excessive, as you can get it faster just form the fury from defensive forms. The change to resolve could also help us. Thoughts?

They actually had that exact rotation before on the PTS. It was terrible (most top-tier Maras parsed it 3-4 times, got the BiS rotation, then demanded it get changed and then played another Discipline).

 

See, the problem is the spec is based on 6 second Merciless Windows. All abilities (except Zealous Strike) lined up by being some multiple of 6. This allows you to line up your rotation a certain way to keep abilities from conflicting with one another. Having a 9 second Cauterize and 15 second Force Rend means that no matter how well you play or organize things, your abilities will conflict and come off CD at different times constantly. If Cauterize or Force Melt are placed 2 attacks after Annihilate, then they will fall off right as Annihilate comes off cooldown. If they are placed right before or after, they will conflict with one another. There is now the issue that since Ravage and Force Melt are no longer in tune on 18 second cooldowns, they will inevitably come off cooldown in the same window.

 

As boring as the old rotation was, it worked as a rotation. This new rotation replaces the kind boring smoothness of the current one with something about as boring, but really clunky.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[qwopicus]

They actually had that exact rotation before on the PTS. It was terrible (most Maras played it 3-4 times, got the BiS rotation, then demanded it get changed and then played another Discipline).

 

See, the problem is the spec is based on 6 second Merciless Windows. All abilities (except Zealous Strike) lined up by being some multiple of 6. This allows you to line up your rotation a certain way to keep abilities from conflicting with one another. Having a 9 second Cauterize and 15 second Force Rend means that no matter how well you play or organize things, your abilities will conflict and come off CD at different times constantly. If Cauterize or Force Melt are placed 2 attacks after Annihilate, then they will fall off right as Annihilate comes off cooldown. If they are placed right before or after, they will conflict with one another. There is now the issue that since Ravage and Force Melt are no longer in tune on 18 second cooldowns, they will inevitably come off cooldown in the same window.

 

As boring as the old rotation was, it worked as a rotation. This new rotation replaces the kind boring smoothness of the current one with something about as boring, but really clunky.

 

I'll take your word for it, as I never played that rotation. The current one is incredibly boring, I'd have to try this one out to know if it's worse somehow. Oh the times, they are a-changin.

[waterboytkd]

I would be excited for the Predation change if it wasn't another Heroic utility. Another one. I mean, what do they envision as a PvP build? If you bother with Unbound, you have to take the new one, too (unless you're Carnage and decide to abandon Berserk). You certainly don't take Relentless without having Unbound. So where does that leave Expunging Camoflauge?

 

If they went this route because they wanted us to have the option of 30 second cooldown or Fury-spam-sans-Berserk, then they need to drop this down to Masterful tier. If giving us the option was just a happy accident that they want to get rid of, might as well roll it into Unbound.

 

The change to Undying was good. Still not sure if I'd be willing to spend a Heroic on an ability that I can then use once every 2.5 minutes, but it's not worthless anymore.

[justinplainview]

LOL DEVS are you kidding me? We already tested these changes. The spec was a garbled unplayable mess of trash that every good marauder immediately and resoundingly told you that it was unplayable and to go back to the drawing board. The current rotation is clunky but it is a rotation and it is in the literal terms, PLAYABLE. You're 100% just reverting to a previous build, wondering if you're going to get different feedback from different players. Spoiler alert: you wont. This is such trash. Every marauder told you that rotation was bad. You IMPROVED from there to the current one. Now you're trying it out again? Huh? Do you think that just because all of the mara mains from pre 3.0 left the class b/c of 3.0 that the new crop of maras will like it? It's not good. It never was. Confirmed there's no reason to give worthwhile feedback to the combat team LOL

 

EDIT: changes to pred are fine, this post speaks only to the DPS rotation.

Edited April 16, 2015 by justinplainview

[Costello]

Its hard to work out what the combat team is looking to achieve with this. It does very little to deal with the underlying issue with the class relentless + unbound may offer something in PvP but its unlikely to improve the class to get it out of the bottom 2 as the dps is just too low.

 

While the time low dps on in PvE isn't really resolved as all your doing is for all your heroic utility getting to run 30% faster which will do little to help you stay on a target that can leap around or can't be approached cause the floor is on fire/exploding/mined or any number of other issues.

[Adovir]

I would be excited for the Predation change if it wasn't another Heroic utility. Another one. I mean, what do they envision as a PvP build? If you bother with Unbound, you have to take the new one, too (unless you're Carnage and decide to abandon Berserk). You certainly don't take Relentless without having Unbound. So where does that leave Expunging Camoflauge?

 

If they went this route because they wanted us to have the option of 30 second cooldown or Fury-spam-sans-Berserk, then they need to drop this down to Masterful tier. If giving us the option was just a happy accident that they want to get rid of, might as well roll it into Unbound.

 

The change to Undying was good. Still not sure if I'd be willing to spend a Heroic on an ability that I can then use once every 2.5 minutes, but it's not worthless anymore.

 

I'd just be happy that they have looked at maras and sents in the last few patches so many times(even if they didn't listen too much) and made some changes, atleast you guys have some variety in your utilities come top tier. Though they do look like good changes for you guys, they could rework them abit for the root talents and such but all and all it looks better for you guys

[Ld-Siris]

I would be excited for the Predation change if it wasn't another Heroic utility. Another one. I mean, what do they envision as a PvP build? If you bother with Unbound, you have to take the new one, too (unless you're Carnage and decide to abandon Berserk). You certainly don't take Relentless without having Unbound. So where does that leave Expunging Camoflauge?

 

If they went this route because they wanted us to have the option of 30 second cooldown or Fury-spam-sans-Berserk, then they need to drop this down to Masterful tier. If giving us the option was just a happy accident that they want to get rid of, might as well roll it into Unbound.

 

The change to Undying was good. Still not sure if I'd be willing to spend a Heroic on an ability that I can then use once every 2.5 minutes, but it's not worthless anymore.

 

This this and more this. As old carnage I had all 3. with this new system I only get 2 and now I can only get one if I want to get the pred off fury. Also why do they keep giving use Heroic utilities when the other classes get skill changes? There is talk of Unstoppable as a skillful utility.... really?

 

They do know we can only get 2 right?

[KaiserTNT]

The way I see these changes is they are going from:

 

A) Weak, long, dots that line up into a smooth, boring, rotation.

To

B) Stronger, medium length, dots that don't line up into a smooth rotation.

 

This is not what I want for the spec (pre 3.0, please!), but I have to say I'd take B over A. If we are trying to make the spec dummy parse hero #1, then yeah, A would be better. But in Operations, due to stuff happening, I rarely ever get to do a smooth 36-second Anni rotation...so something that's more of a priority system with shorter, harder hitting dots has to be better. Right?

 

P.S. Please bring back pre-3.0 Anni Bioware

Edited April 16, 2015 by KaiserTNT

[oofalong]

...

As boring as the old rotation was, it worked as a rotation.

...

 

This reality should not be ignored.

 

The proposed changes result in the following effective CDs on our key abilities:

 

• Annihilate | Merciless Slash 6s
  
• Rupture | Cauterize 9s
  
• Deadly | Overload Saber 12s
  
• Force Rend | Melt 15s
  
• Ravage | Master Strike 18s
  

 

This would be a cacophony of chaos. There is literally no way to build a sustainable rotation with this portfolio of abilities. Previously, I said about the 3.0 rotation, "...at best, people don't hate it". If these changes go-live that sentiment will change. You will be faced with a quagmire every GCD always choosing between the least worst option. I am typically not prone to hyperbole, anger or name-calling, but this is ******* stupid.

[Zoom_VI]

Protip: if you want the devs to revert, you should probably go and post in the actual marauder feedback thread on the PTS forums.

[Meheew_Tore]

I think while we may not have gotten all that we wanted, not that i thought we would , we got something and thats a step in the right direction

[justinplainview]

Protip: if you want the devs to revert, you should probably go and post in the actual marauder feedback thread on the PTS forums.

 

we already gave them this feedback before 3.0, soooooo yeah

[bdatt]

This reality should not be ignored.

 

The proposed changes result in the following effective CDs on our key abilities:

 

• Annihilate | Merciless Slash 6s
  
• Rupture | Cauterize 9s
  
• Deadly | Overload Saber 12s
  
• Force Rend | Melt 15s
  
• Ravage | Master Strike 18s
  

 

This would be a cacophony of chaos. There is literally no way to build a sustainable rotation with this portfolio of abilities. Previously, I said about the 3.0 rotation, "...at best, people don't hate it". If these changes go-live that sentiment will change. You will be faced with a quagmire every GCD always choosing between the least worst option. I am typically not prone to hyperbole, anger or name-calling, but this is ******* stupid.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight but this sounds a lot like the serenity shadow rotation:

2 x 18 sec dots

1 x 15 sec CD ability

1 x 15 sec ICD proc

1 x 12 sec ability

1 x 9 sec ICD proc

Filler abilities

 

I find it to be a wonderful rotation where nothing overlaps except the 9 sec proc sometimes needs a delay (fortunately it's a 6 sec DOT so it has the flexibility.

[justinplainview]

I don't have a dog in this fight but this sounds a lot like the serenity shadow rotation:

2 x 18 sec dots

1 x 15 sec CD ability

1 x 15 sec ICD proc

1 x 12 sec ability

1 x 9 sec ICD proc

Filler abilities

 

I find it to be a wonderful rotation where nothing overlaps except the 9 sec proc sometimes needs a delay (fortunately it's a 6 sec DOT so it has the flexibility.

 

but it's effectively not. this garbage was tested and it was terrible. /thread (when I say it's not I say that based on how force and rage are not similar at all especially from an opening perspective, and outside of that, dotspread not being rotational, passives being absolute *********, etc etc etc etc

Edited April 16, 2015 by justinplainview

[oofalong]

I don't have a dog in this fight but this sounds a lot like the serenity shadow rotation:

2 x 18 sec dots

1 x 15 sec CD ability

1 x 15 sec ICD proc

1 x 12 sec ability

1 x 9 sec ICD proc

Filler abilities

 

I find it to be a wonderful rotation where nothing overlaps except the 9 sec proc sometimes needs a delay (fortunately it's a 6 sec DOT so it has the flexibility.

 

 

I am going to look into this more, but I suspect they are still different.

 

First off, it appears you listed every ability used, where as I only listed our key damaging abilities. If I look at every ability it introduces more dissonance.

 

Plus, as Justin pointed out the resource of the classes are vastly different. Fundamentally, we have to use weaker attacks to build resource to use stronger attacks. Our resource generation is supplemented by DoT ticks so as you adjust DoT durations you mess with up-times, which causes more resource issues. Yes, the current changes increase resource generation a bit, but if your DoTs fall off it doesn't really matter what the internal CD is on the proc.

[Ld-Siris]

Oh and if you look the other classes are getting mor mobility. Op heals can cast on the move. Oh even assassin tanks can cast their main channel on the move now.

 

Can Mara's cast ravage on the move? Nope.

[Svarthrafn]

Less uptime on Predation, without fury, but at the cost of a heroic utility is not worth it.

[Emperor-Norton]

Less uptime on Predation, without fury, but at the cost of a heroic utility is not worth it.

Speak for yourself. It can be really nice for PvE and really good for Anni and Fury in PvP.

[Atlanis]

LOL DEVS are you kidding me? We already tested these changes. The spec was a garbled unplayable mess of trash that every good marauder immediately and resoundingly told you that it was unplayable and to go back to the drawing board. The current rotation is clunky but it is a rotation and it is in the literal terms, PLAYABLE. You're 100% just reverting to a previous build, wondering if you're going to get different feedback from different players. Spoiler alert: you wont. This is such trash. Every marauder told you that rotation was bad. You IMPROVED from there to the current one. Now you're trying it out again? Huh? Do you think that just because all of the mara mains from pre 3.0 left the class b/c of 3.0 that the new crop of maras will like it? It's not good. It never was. Confirmed there's no reason to give worthwhile feedback to the combat team LOL

 

EDIT: changes to pred are fine, this post speaks only to the DPS rotation.

 

Hey, you stole my Ragepost......Now I only can burn more Jawas on that Muscovian Altar I errected on Tatooine.....

 

Oh great God of Not-Listening and Not-Reading please give us more of the pain we deserve :-P

 

P.S.: Well they went back to a place in between Release 3.0. and after 2.9. on the PTS, thats almost were we wanted it to end up be positive xD

[Kadra]

The way I see these changes is they are going from:

 

A) Weak, long, dots that line up into a smooth, boring, rotation.

To

B) Stronger, medium length, dots that don't line up into a smooth rotation.

 

I think they meantioned the dps decrease because they aren't going to change the DoT strength, only the duration.

 

Edit: come to think of it, no, they also said they wanted to make it more bursty, so they had to increase the DoT strength... Must have meant a dps drop coming from the rotation clunkiness...

Edited April 17, 2015 by Kadra

[TACeMossie]

I think they meantioned the dps decrease because they aren't going to change the DoT strength, only the duration.

 

Well according to data downloaded with the PTS, Force Melt will tick 4% harder and Cauterize will tick 26% harder. You will notice a DPS loss if you dont alter the rotation, but altering A DoT to 100% uptime will be a DPS increase

[zeroeffectxoo]

Uh, that predation utility is not a "buff". The only good thing about it is you no longer have to sacrifice DPS to use it. In PvP it seems almost useless. My problem is not DPS but staying on top of people and staying mobile from all the snares/roots. How's this going to help me? I can possibly break a snare once every 30 seconds but as soon as I do I'm going to be snared again. Now if predation had some kind of immunity it would be worth it. As it stands I can get several predations within the 30 second cooldown so why would I spec that way? This utility is actually gimping me in PvP. I'll gladly sacrifice DPS so I can gain predation on call when I need it to break snares to stay on someone. I can currently pop predation to break snare, get snared again, pop my CD, pop predation again to counter second snare. With this utility I can pop predation to break snare, get snared again then ??? as I get blasted from a distance. Force Camo is not a viable option because it's incredibly inconsistent when it comes to snares. Most times I sit in place when I pop it 4 seconds on the duration because I'm rooted. Who's not going to spec towards the cleanse option for Camo? I don't understand why Bioware thinks that's a good change unless I'm not seeing something.

 

Being able to Beserk for extra DPS means nothing if I can't stay on someone to DPS them down. Why do they keep ignoring the fact we need snare immunities like other classes get? Ranged at that. Change the masterful talent to give a small movement speed increase+snare immunity for half the duration only on the caster? Change it to the full duration of predation snare immunity but once every 30 seconds? Why's Defensive Forms still not a passive instead of a utility? Every Marauder/Sentinel is going to spec it no matter what. It's a requirement.

 

It seems they're terrified at making predation OP since it's a group buff. It's not hard to look at our abilities and place snare immunities somewhere else like on a Cloak of Pain. I mean if predation by itself had immunities that would be really the only buff a Marauder would need to be great again in PvP.

Edited April 17, 2015 by zeroeffectxoo

[TACeMossie]

Hey I just realised something

 

Transcendence/Predation under Zen/Berserk in Combat/Carnage with the new utility has a max cooldown of 22.5 seconds. YAY ALACRITY

[Ardarell_Solo]

Protip: if you want the devs to revert, you should probably go and post in the actual marauder feedback thread on the PTS forums.

 

Yeah guys, please focus on this thread and post your ideas and evaluations there, so everyone gets the whole picture. Thx :-)