mmmbuddah Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Juggs are currently at the bottom of the leaderboards in ranked play (if you ignore maras, that is) - they need something significant, especially in higher ranked play. Mercs in their current form are doing significantly better. Snipers are currently doing better. You do NOT balance classes depending on leader boards, you balance them on performance data and real life testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsserWoloch Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Who, ever, looked at vengeance jugg and thought "this needs to be harder to kill." Juggs are already pretty much the last target focused in arenas, now they will be... more last? The buff to last 15 seconds is the bigger deal of the two though. Previously you could try to kite or cc the jugg for 10 seconds, you can't for 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omeru Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Again developer showed they have no ********* idea about this game. Well done biofail well done. I play jugg and even i find this change stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaybred Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 indeed i am. i also play lots of other classes. sure vengeance is probably up there with pt's and hatred sins in ease of playing. what's that got to do with anything? We all need to take pt off this list of imaginary fotms. All pts top rank are tanks. Dps pt's are one of the easiest targets to global. So be specific. Don't let devs read current dps pt's as op. It's not. Anyone thinking so are regstars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallucigenocide Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) We all need to take pt off this list of imaginary fotms. All pts top rank are tanks. Dps pt's are one of the easiest targets to global. So be specific. Don't let devs read current dps pt's as op. It's not. Anyone thinking so are regstars. i didn't say anything about being OP i was commenting on the difficulty in playing them. and why i didn't mention a specific spec was because they're all really easy to play. Edited March 6, 2015 by hallucigenocide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 You do NOT balance classes depending on leader boards, you balance them on performance data and real life testing. The only objective data we-the-players have access to is... leaderboards. So that's all we can really speak to outside of our own experiences and opinions (which vary considerably on every topic on this board). Should BW make their decisions purely based on leaderboards? No. Presumably they have more metrics to go on that you and I will never see. But leaderboards are very likely to reflect BW's metrics. And the numbers on the leaderboards are "real life" results. In "real life" guardians are basically not very good, especiall when you look at players that have played a bit (looking only at players with more than 10 wins, the discrepancy in avg rating goes up with guardians/juggs at the bottom). To people saying "guardians are easy" - every class is "easy" but none are easy to do well with. With my guardian I use over 24 keybinds (in wzs, more in ow) and they have no stealth or ranged damage or non-situational heals (that don't require the right person actively attacking them). In "real life" I see wzs full of hatred sins and even PTs that get outperformed by good maras; that doesn't mean you go nerf maras. How many do well vs how many do poorly isn't the best way to judge because there are trends - educated players interested in performance might flock to one class vs another. But the fact remains - juggs are one of the most popular classes in ranked play but they are at the bottom in terms of performance and, based on that I, as a player, can say that BW was not wrong to buff the class. Most of the people in this thread, btw, are not complaining about juggs based on any performance data - they just don't like juggs ("they make me bleed my own blood in 1v1 unless I use abilities I don't want to have to use" is not any sort of argument). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMannii Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Watch this video and understand how we feel about BioWare: Best. Explanation. Ever. (from a PvP perspective) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omeru Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 its impossible to kill a juggernaut in 1v1 for me now ,without vanish..(a good jugg i mean) Dont worry you have more tools than all classes combined. More cc and stuns more immunity. stealth, phasewalk, vanish, decent deffence self heals so if you are complaining about what? A class is getting closer to your class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaybred Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 they make me bleed my own blood in 1v1 unless I use abilities I don't want to have to use" is not any sort of argument). Arguments like this are usually nothing more than a desperate attempt to gain attention as a self announced pro. Other than that I mostly agree. Imo problem is how some classes are so easy at being good with and when those classes are coherent to the class best against ones own class, the "slight irritation" becomes true agony game after game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Arguments like this are usually nothing more than a desperate attempt to gain attention as a self announced pro. Other than that I mostly agree. Imo problem is how some classes are so easy at being good with and when those classes are coherent to the class best against ones own class, the "slight irritation" becomes true agony game after game. I was paraphrasing one of the posts in this thread while referencing the forum wars scene from World of Roguecraft (3) (which remains one of the best gameplay videos of all time and was one big class balance argument). Edited March 6, 2015 by Savej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaybred Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I was paraphrasing one of the posts in this thread while referencing the forum wars scene from World of Roguecraft (3) (which remains one of the best gameplay videos of all time and was one big class balance argument). And that was me quoting your quote. Meant no offense. More to the general audience making theese statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fayenne Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 **** yeah we need to destroy these forums till they do something about PVP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrthTorkwemada Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 5 sec reflect + 12 sec ED = 17 sec 17 sec 17 sec Operatives could have a rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savej Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 And that was me quoting your quote. Meant no offense. More to the general audience making theese statements. Ah, ok - wasn't sure if there was confusion ;》 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Healius- Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 They are already powerful in pvp so this is gonna hurt . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebdar Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Watch this video and understand how we feel about BioWare: Best. Explanation. Ever. (from a PvP perspective) I LOLed my pants don't forget to rewatch Edited March 6, 2015 by Nebdar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) after 3.0 the healing got decreased. it's only reasonable that it got buffed but it should have remained 10 stacks and 10 seconds. however jugs need damage buff more than healing at this stage. Edited March 6, 2015 by Alec_Fortescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 5 sec reflect + 12 sec ED = 17 sec 17 sec 17 sec Operatives could have a rest This exactly. They have 17 seconds of ridiculous defense! I mean, really , how much do they want to give them?! People are whining about commandos getting 5 charges of absorb over ten seconds! Yet, THIS, THIS is ok.?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallucigenocide Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 This exactly. They have 17 seconds of ridiculous defense! I mean, really , how much do they want to give them?! People are whining about commandos getting 5 charges of absorb over ten seconds! Yet, THIS, THIS is ok.?! mandos damage i imagine is far beyond juggs so them surviving longer may cause some concerns.. juggs damage is not really that awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 its probably needed for pve. most likley some boss fight and instead of tuning the boss down, they buffed jug tanks. now 1 tank can do it, but not the others so they think problem solved. They do not care about pvp so they just threw it together as a band aid and went home. Pretty sure this is exactly what happened. The change does make sense for Jugg/Guards against Double Hatred comps in 4s, but beyond that it's overkill for PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 You wanna kill a non-stealth non-cleanse class without using your 2 escape abilities? Exactly. Not that SWTOR is (or should be) balanced around 1v1. You do NOT balance classes depending on leader boards, you balance them on performance data and real life testing. LOLWUT? Leaderboards are not great but they are pretty much the only performance data we players have. Also, if playing in ranked (against the best PvP opposition available) is not real world what, pray tell, is? The buff to last 15 seconds is the bigger deal of the two though. Previously you could try to kite or cc the jugg for 10 seconds, you can't for 15. root, knockback, mezz or hard stun, kite. Roots are best as they add no resolve. I can't tell you how often I get double knockback rooted by a pair of consular/inquisitors who know how to work together. If you time it right, you can even do a casted mezz (force lift / whirlwind) that lands just as the root is ending -- do this from about 9m (if the target is not focus/smash) to prevent them from leaping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerSchneider Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) 5 sec reflect + 12 sec ED = 17 sec 17 sec 17 sec Operatives could have a rest What If I will tell you that juggs can be stunned and killed through enraged defense? Edited March 6, 2015 by DerSchneider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateushanai Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I LOLed my pants don't forget to rewatch OMG. This pretty much sums it all up. LOLOLOLOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 mandos damage i imagine is far beyond juggs so them surviving longer may cause some concerns.. juggs damage is not really that awesome. We.Have.5.charges of absorb, guardians have MUCH more, even if they do less damage, there was no need to make them have 2 or 3 lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Exactly. Not that SWTOR is (or should be) balanced around 1v1. LOLWUT? Leaderboards are not great but they are pretty much the only performance data we players have. Also, if playing in ranked (against the best PvP opposition available) is not real world what, pray tell, is? root, knockback, mezz or hard stun, kite. Roots are best as they add no resolve. I can't tell you how often I get double knockback rooted by a pair of consular/inquisitors who know how to work together. If you time it right, you can even do a casted mezz (force lift / whirlwind) that lands just as the root is ending -- do this from about 9m (if the target is not focus/smash) to prevent them from leaping. The devs test out ALL classes themselves, and you know, do their jobs. First hand experience is better than second or third hand, which is what the leader boards are. Yes community feedback is important, but going soley off of leader boards is the VERY lazy approach. Edited March 6, 2015 by mmmbuddah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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