Unwritten rules of the Gree event, and Small Group PvP in the Southern Terminus.

[jcurri]

So I've been hashing out some unwritten rules of engagement with my guildies, and I wanted a little clarity on something. As far as open world factional PvP is concerned, this is a big slice of content for my guild. It's a SORELY needed breath of fresh air from monotony of the same warzones over and over and over. However when it comes to the small group PvP of the Gree event, there's been some divisiveness.

 

There are those of the mindset that red is dead, and if you want to quest there, you run the risk of getting attacked while questing, that this is the way the devs designed the game, and players are meant to combat each other in the same way they are meant to do so in the "Outlaw's Den", faction plays no part. However there are also a good number of players who are of the mindset that there is an unwritten rule that you don't target members of the same faction, and that in fact, if one were to engage in combat against one's own faction that is considered a "douchey" thing to do.

 

I'd like to get some feedback as to what you as a community feel on this topic. Do you agree that there should be an unwritten rule? Should one be subject to negative chat from someone of the same faction because they attacked them while they were questing in an area where they are "expected" to get attacked, or are you of the other mindset? Do you heed to the unwritten rule of Pubs and Sith should unite and not target each other in this area?

 

Thanks for your input!

[Sobre_Dinalt]

My humble opinion is this, and addresses the topic as a whole - not the OP in specific.

 

In the southern, PvP area of the Gree event... Red is Dead. If you decide to go into a PvP specific area (with missions showing a giant (PVP) mark in front of it), you've very clearly been warned what you are getting into. If you do not want to be in danger, don't go. Simple as that. Similarly, if you decide to partake in that 'Red is Dead' policy, be prepared to live with the consequences. You'll be hunted, you'll be killed, and it will be... PvP. There are literally zero legitimate reasons to complain about getting engaged by either faction in an area that is clearly, and by design, intended to promote faction-indiscriminate PvP opportunities.

 

For those who want to make the argument that this is the area in which you can do your Heroic mission, I'm gonna stop you right there. The heroic mission is the only solo-able daily you can do that provides the Gray Helix components. It can be completed outside of the heroic area, it's just harder. The baddies have more HP and hit harder, as befits a PvE environment. So if you choose NOT to partake in the PvP area, you're only missing out on a small amount of rep. That's really not a big deal. If you DO choose to partake in the PvP, you get this one chance, for a week, to hunt and kill every available person that wanders into you and your friend's path to your heart's content.

 

So the bottom line is this. Why would you create artificial restrictions on an event that, for one week in an entire year, takes away the faction warfare limitation that comes with open world PvP, just so you can get a couple green rep tokens? Embrace that this is a unique event. Have fun with it, because it just doesnt happen often. Also, there is something truly unique and undeniably cool when you have 2-3 groups of people all trying to get control of the pylon so they can kill orb carriers or help their own get the mission done. It's absolute chaos, and on top of all that you have solo players finding unique ways to bounce in during lulls and sneak their own orbs in. There is literally no other time, in all of the game, when you get that much activity happening is such a confined area. And if you don't find that idea appealing, or don't want to get killed by anyone and everyone who decides to give you a shot, then just dont go there. It's easy, just dont go south.

 

Final thought. Jung Ma is a RP-PVP server. No offense, but if you join this server, and you happen to be one of the people out there who does NOT want to PvP... that's fine. Just don't whine about it when the other people who joined the server so they CAN have open world PvP enjoy themselves. I've heard people try to argue that because RP is the first set of letters in 'RP-PvP', it means that RP comes first. By that same lack of logic, PvP has more letters in it than RP, so that must mean it's more important, right? In the end, the server is designed for open world PvP, and it will be used by the player base however they want. Making artificial rules to restrict that is just silly.

 

If you disagree with me, please look for me in the southern area of the Gree event. I'll be happy to discuss the issue in great detail when Chri'riara finds you and eats your lunch. Then we'll chat and have hot tea and cider while one of us is lying dead in the snow.

 

- Sabir / Chri'riara

Edited February 25, 2015 by Sobre_Dinalt

[Riverview]

The above says it all for me except for a couple of things.

 

There are specific achievements around denying people the ability to complete their dailies in the Southern Terminus if you die while carrying orbs or your friends die while helping you carry orbs there is a pretty firm and irrefutable reason behind it.

 

And can we all stop with the "ganking" complaints? if you're dying and its not a close fight that makes you want to type something nice to your attacker then you are being exposed as a bad PVPer. Speaking for Chri and myself at no time did we actually "gank" and run up on someone at their disadvantage if we found a solo orb carrier Chri wasted him and I watched - if there were two we ate their lunch, if there are three we ate their lunch and took their chain - when four came around because someone cried for help from "gankers" we died and zero &*J#s were given because I"m PVPing and thats what I expect to happen ... but it was cute when you said something along the lines of "DIE MONSTER YOU DONT BELONG IN THIS WORLD" to me ... you must be of the RP spec with that kind of messianic fervor.

 

Blackloki (Gray,Red,Blue,Green,)

Edited February 25, 2015 by Riverview

[ExiaFanatic]

Thank you for addressing these issues! I've had to sit through Ilum genchat with people crying about 2 of my guild members, 2 Mercs i might add. We're here to enjoy the Gree Event not listening to people complain about how this is betraying the team/faction etc. There are areas outside of the contested zone for you guys specifically to do your dailies. If you want those PvP dailies and enter the PvP Zone dont complain when a PvPer kills you. End of Story.

[Luniara]

I agree with Sabir! Amazing response.

[Zekiirah]

What Sabir said!

 

I tend to leave folks alone if I'm by myself (I'm a healer, after all!), but if I'm with a group of friends and they engage in PvP with the same faction, or someone attacks my group, you can bet I'll heal them until the battle is over. The only PvP-related thing that annoys me during this event is the constant "Oh, ____ guild is being a bunch of *&*%^& again", and there's one person in that guild grouped with three other people from different guilds. It's beyond me how bad some people are at math. And I'm bad at math.

[Artiemes]

I'll admit it, when I get ganked I get angry. Its a natural reaction. I was minding my own business and some @#$$%^# decided to kill me for no reason?! What the scorekeeper, man?

 

Then I realize that I did just that to a level 55 PvE geared Merc not 5 minutes ago.

 

And its okay. Until I'm killed again later on.

 

And the cycle repeats.

[phalczen]

From an RP perspective, the Republic and/or Jedi Council would never condone pub on pub attacks, especially in wartime. Honestly, I can't see Darth Marr condoning same faction attacks either, its counter-productive to his war plans.

 

If you read the description of the daily pvp quests, you'll take note that the marching orders from the republic are very specific. It is clear that the republic and the empire have specific goals to achieve, and it makes more sense that the republic players would work together to guard the pylon and control the orb running to prevent the Empire from gaining the technology and retrieving military data from downed vehicles, and vice versa for the Imps. It would be ridiculous for pubs to attack each other within the Ancient Hypergate warzone (EDIT: outside of the live-fire training exercises) and its ridiculous here (where its an active battlefield).

 

It was a poor design choice on the part of the developers, and there is already an open warzone area for faction on faction violence.

 

I realize I can't prevent people from ganking me, but I would support any endeavor, whether it be player-enforced or a design change from the developers, that promotes the members of a faction working together to control the zone and deny the area to the enemy.

Edited February 26, 2015 by phalczen

[Sounders_Fan]

there are 2 things that seem to cause the most same faction violence. 1) Orb Lines. seeing Imps and pubs holding hands waiting to turn in orbs seems to set off pvp. I admit, I somethimes try to blow up the line when I see one. 2) vengeance against that guy in the blue and green leveling gear that queues for ranked WZs and then gets 2 shot and has a stat line of all zeros.

 

Otherwise, I personally tend to leave same faction alone. On pubs, there are some, such as the dudes from Ghost, that I have grouped with to avoid accidental death by AOE during larger fights.

 

Gree, one of the best events BW ever created. Right up there with the original rakghoul event.

[phalczen]

there are 2 things that seem to cause the most same faction violence. 1) Orb Lines. seeing Imps and pubs holding hands waiting to turn in orbs seems to set off pvp. I admit, I somethimes try to blow up the line when I see one. 2) vengeance against that guy in the blue and green leveling gear that queues for ranked WZs and then gets 2 shot and has a stat line of all zeros.

 

1) Absolutely immersion breaking of course. But, it would never have come to that if it had been designed differently from the get-go.

2) That guy is still going to troll you and queue for RWZ. Not a reason to sustain/maintain a bad design, imho.

[Zekiirah]

1) Absolutely immersion breaking of course. But, it would never have come to that if it had been designed differently from the get-go.

2) That guy is still going to troll you and queue for RWZ. Not a reason to sustain/maintain a bad design, imho.

 

If you wanted to get super into it, why wouldn't people go all out during this event? The Gree are insanely advanced. They're also isolationist, though they're working with the Republic more these days. They come around once a year. It makes sense to me that the Southern area is free-for-all. Both factions have everything to gain by earning favor with the Gree, and both factions house hundreds of individuals out for personal gain.

[Riverview]

Ultimately I refer to the Patch Notes of 1.7 when Gree came out to begin with :

 

The Western Ice Shelf is now divided into a Small Group Free-For-All PvP region in the south and a standard open world area in the north. Missions in these areas will activate during the "Relics of the Gree" Event.

 

"Small Group Free-For-All" is a new ruleset for world PvP regions where groups of up to four players compete against all other groups in the area. Operations groups are disallowed in these regions.

 

The faction-free aspect of the Southern Terminus is not just an annoying facet of a poor design - it is actually a ruleset implemented to encourage true open world free for all PVP - that is by pure design its one and only intent - they are telling you "don't go in there without a four man group." so if you do that its at your own peril - and if you find people in a group trying to stop your group that is also by design.... the missions have a PVP tag in front of them = expect resistance.

 

There are many elements of the game that I hate but accept , namely the fact that Conquest is so broken that it only rewards guild biomass making it impossible for small/medium Guilds to obtain any titles until Total Galactic War week or if inexplicably the big guilds decide that they are done invading ... but I accept it and move on.... and we deal with conquest WEEKLY. This is one week out of an entire year where small group open world free for all PVP happens... why can't people embrace that instead of being sensitive?

 

Blackloki (Red,Green,Blue,Gray)

Edited February 26, 2015 by Riverview

[Riverview]

And to add to what Zek said if an RP justification is required ... the Gree are faction agnostic here to analyze and observe combat of all kinds ... in my mind that is why there is a faction safe North and a faction safe South that allows them to observe different aspects of warfare ...

 

I feel really dirty for typing all that ugh

 

Blackloki (Red,Green,Blue,Gray)

Edited February 26, 2015 by Riverview

[phalczen]

If you wanted to get super into it, why wouldn't people go all out during this event? The Gree are insanely advanced. They're also isolationist, though they're working with the Republic more these days. They come around once a year. It makes sense to me that the Southern area is free-for-all. Both factions have everything to gain by earning favor with the Gree, and both factions house hundreds of individuals out for personal gain.

 

Then the writers should have written the PVP quests from the perspective of the Gree, the way they wrote the other quests like Unity Assessment, Catalysis, Primary Testing/Primary Studies, etc. Yet, the Gree comm relay (not the heroic), Tonvarr pirates, and pvp quests are all written from the perspective of your faction's command.

 

The writing, which presumably is supposed to indicate intention, does not jive with the design of a free for all. That's why I have a problem with it.

[Riverview]

Then the writers should have written the PVP quests from the perspective of the Gree, the way they wrote the other quests like Unity Assessment, Catalysis, Primary Testing/Primary Studies, etc. Yet, the Gree comm relay (not the heroic), Tonvarr pirates, and pvp quests are all written from the perspective of your faction's command.

 

The writing, which presumably is supposed to indicate intention, does not jive with the design of a free for all. That's why I have a problem with it.

 

Totally understand that from an RP perspective, but as a PVPer only I think its only fair to appreciate that PVP players won't read that far into it at all ... what I'm considering is the ruleset and the way that this PVP centered event is constructed, really the rest of it I couldn't care less about because I'm just excited that everyone is all in one place to mix it up for once.

 

Blackloki (Red,Green,Blue,Gray)

[Zekiirah]

Then the writers should have written the PVP quests from the perspective of the Gree, the way they wrote the other quests like Unity Assessment, Catalysis, Primary Testing/Primary Studies, etc. Yet, the Gree comm relay (not the heroic), Tonvarr pirates, and pvp quests are all written from the perspective of your faction's command.

 

The writing, which presumably is supposed to indicate intention, does not jive with the design of a free for all. That's why I have a problem with it.

 

I feel like that's just trying to push it too far and nitpick it all. There are far more serious immersion issues in this game, like the issue with custom emotes not being cross-faction and the major clipping issues with various hair styles and outfits. Not every event needs to be custom-tailored for Roleplay, and that's coming from someone who is a very serious RPer.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Zekiirah

[phalczen]

I feel like that's just trying to push it too far and nitpick it all. There are far more serious immersion issues in this game, like the issue withcustom emotes not being cross-faction and the major clipping issues with various hair styles and outfits. Not every event needs to be custom-tailored for Roleplay, and that's coming from someone who is a very serious RPer.

 

That's the whole point of any rationalization. You can make up a very valid RP story for why players would be openly attacking each other. And I agree with you that there are independent, perhaps selfish reasons, to increase your standing with the Gree. But to make that rationalization is analogous to book authors taking liberties with the star wars universe in the EU. The "canon", to extend the analogy, is a specific directive from republic command advising us to travel in four man teams to:

a) recover military intel before the enemy

b) prevent the enemy from capturing the energy condenser/energy pylon technology similar to the security system used at the Seline hypergate.

 

If it was nitpicky, it wouldn't be such a big source of contention every single blasted time this event rolls around.

When I am not in min-maxed pvp gear and I am questing alone, I do not have any expectation that I should be entitled to complete the two quests freely and without interference, even if I try to do them on an empty instance at off hours. It is more dangerous and chaotic and fun (for some people, myself included). Yet, given how the quests are written, it just seems stupid that same factions should be allowed to attack one another and rewarded BY YOUR OWN faction for doing so.

 

Both the empire and the republic realize the importance of solidarity in this time of war. In fact, there is an entire expansion to this game just released a couple months ago highlighting truce out of convenience in favor of defeating a much greater threat. You can rationalize the free for all design as self-serving individuals hell-bent on grabbing insanely powerful technologies from a neutral, ancient, advanced species. But I can rationalize the obvious treason inherent in a Guardian Knight, Seer Sage, Sentinel and Telekinetic killing another similarly constructed group in the region, or the Vanguard Shield specialist leader of Havoc Squad killing another group of her fellow soldiers.

 

It doesn't sit right viscerally with a lot of people and thats why it generates so much activity in Gen Chat. I've grown to live with it and tailor my gameplay to suit my mood at the time. If I'm interested in improving my pvp skills, I'll join a group heading into the region. I don't have sympathy for people who complain that some "griefers" messed up their "orb line" where everyone was patiently waiting for their turn.

 

And the problem isn't because the game shouldn't have any free for all areas, either. The problem is that the game lacks a true open world pvp system that incentivizes and encourages the members of a faction working in unison on a much large battlefield. Maybe its limitations of the Hero engine, maybe its conscious decision on the part of the developers, or financially motivation allocation of developer time and resources, I don't know why 3 years into this game we still lack such an experience. But, it is that lack of any immersive open world experience that leaves many pvp'ers salivating for something, anything, that they will grasp on desperately to even a poorly designed system like this and rationalize it to kingdom come merely to satiate their pvp appetites.

[Zoom_VI]

My rule is if its red I kill it once, and then ignore it unless it attacks me.

[-OBITUS]

My humble opinion is this, and addresses the topic as a whole - not the OP in specific.

 

In the southern, PvP area of the Gree event... Red is Dead. If you decide to go into a PvP specific area (with missions showing a giant (PVP) mark in front of it), you've very clearly been warned what you are getting into. If you do not want to be in danger, don't go. Simple as that. Similarly, if you decide to partake in that 'Red is Dead' policy, be prepared to live with the consequences. You'll be hunted, you'll be killed, and it will be... PvP. There are literally zero legitimate reasons to complain about getting engaged by either faction in an area that is clearly, and by design, intended to promote faction-indiscriminate PvP opportunities.

 

For those who want to make the argument that this is the area in which you can do your Heroic mission, I'm gonna stop you right there. The heroic mission is the only solo-able daily you can do that provides the Gray Helix components. It can be completed outside of the heroic area, it's just harder. The baddies have more HP and hit harder, as befits a PvE environment. So if you choose NOT to partake in the PvP area, you're only missing out on a small amount of rep. That's really not a big deal. If you DO choose to partake in the PvP, you get this one chance, for a week, to hunt and kill every available person that wanders into you and your friend's path to your heart's content.

 

So the bottom line is this. Why would you create artificial restrictions on an event that, for one week in an entire year, takes away the faction warfare limitation that comes with open world PvP, just so you can get a couple green rep tokens? Embrace that this is a unique event. Have fun with it, because it just doesnt happen often. Also, there is something truly unique and undeniably cool when you have 2-3 groups of people all trying to get control of the pylon so they can kill orb carriers or help their own get the mission done. It's absolute chaos, and on top of all that you have solo players finding unique ways to bounce in during lulls and sneak their own orbs in. There is literally no other time, in all of the game, when you get that much activity happening is such a confined area. And if you don't find that idea appealing, or don't want to get killed by anyone and everyone who decides to give you a shot, then just dont go there. It's easy, just dont go south.

 

Final thought. Jung Ma is a RP-PVP server. No offense, but if you join this server, and you happen to be one of the people out there who does NOT want to PvP... that's fine. Just don't whine about it when the other people who joined the server so they CAN have open world PvP enjoy themselves. I've heard people try to argue that because RP is the first set of letters in 'RP-PvP', it means that RP comes first. By that same lack of logic, PvP has more letters in it than RP, so that must mean it's more important, right? In the end, the server is designed for open world PvP, and it will be used by the player base however they want. Making artificial rules to restrict that is just silly.

 

If you disagree with me, please look for me in the southern area of the Gree event. I'll be happy to discuss the issue in great detail when Chri'riara finds you and eats your lunch. Then we'll chat and have hot tea and cider while one of us is lying dead in the snow.

 

- Sabir / Chri'riara

 

I thought that was cute Chri'riara. But of course I agree with everything you said and Loki as well. I think the only kindness people have shown is letting two of the bigger guilds this morning (Ghost and Arcanum) sit it out in a truce rather than respawn over and over again. And that's fine.

On a random note: enough with the complaints about ganking please (directed at some scrub dubs). Ganking would be me attacking you with a droid attacking you already. I make sure to keep my fights fair

Oh I love Jung Ma

 

--Zephyros/Aeolus/Kurupi

Edited February 26, 2015 by -OBITUS
Typo

[Aetrus]

I know that Aetrus may look like a Chiss and Synergy may appear as a Cathar, but in all honesty that's just a clever ruse to hide the fact that all of my characters are actually Trandoshan. Each kill, regardless of faction or guild, brings me closer to my ultimate goal of becoming mate to my goddess, Scorekeeper. Anyone who seeks to bar me from her side will know great despair. I have the second most Jagannath points of any I know of, and once I have slain that irritating little sage known as Zek-anlai Scorekeeper will surely reward me with my rightful place as the God of the Hunt.

[jcurri]

I know that Aetrus may look like a Chiss and Synergy may appear as a Cathar, but in all honesty that's just a clever ruse to hide the fact that all of my characters are actually Trandoshan. Each kill, regardless of faction or guild, brings me closer to my ultimate goal of becoming mate to my goddess, Scorekeeper. Anyone who seeks to bar me from her side will know great despair. I have the second most Jagannath points of any I know of, and once I have slain that irritating little sage known as Zek-anlai Scorekeeper will surely reward me with my rightful place as the God of the Hunt.

 

win

 

+1

[Anishor]

I KNEW IT! This means war Aetrus, for Sranishor is really a wookiee. You're doomed.

[Dak_fireraker]

I'm sympathetic to both sides of the argument. Personally, I am ALL about Open World PVP & feel that should be the only place for it. I mean after all this IS Star Wars right? & Yes I am still OK w/ OWPVP even when i am on the receiving end of it. What I'm not OK with is when i am Soloing a tough boss like the Gree Destroyer & an opportunistic person comes up on me snuffs me & then takes my kill (b/c I've nearly beaten it). Seriously if you want a PVP fight wait I win & we can go at it & if you want the destroyer wait till i die, either or. If I get jumped by a group while I'm running around then I really don't care b/c it comes w/ the territory. I don't however take kindly to doing all the work & having someone else claim my kill & me.

[Artiemes]

I know that Aetrus may look like a Chiss and Synergy may appear as a Cathar, but in all honesty that's just a clever ruse to hide the fact that all of my characters are actually Trandoshan. Each kill, regardless of faction or guild, brings me closer to my ultimate goal of becoming mate to my goddess, Scorekeeper. Anyone who seeks to bar me from her side will know great despair. I have the second most Jagannath points of any I know of, and once I have slain that irritating little sage known as Zek-anlai Scorekeeper will surely reward me with my rightful place as the God of the Hunt.

 

*cough* I-have-the-most *cough*

[jcurri]

I'm sympathetic to both sides of the argument. Personally, I am ALL about Open World PVP & feel that should be the only place for it. I mean after all this IS Star Wars right? & Yes I am still OK w/ OWPVP even when i am on the receiving end of it. What I'm not OK with is when i am Soloing a tough boss like the Gree Destroyer & an opportunistic person comes up on me snuffs me & then takes my kill (b/c I've nearly beaten it). Seriously if you want a PVP fight wait I win & we can go at it & if you want the destroyer wait till i die, either or. If I get jumped by a group while I'm running around then I really don't care b/c it comes w/ the territory. I don't however take kindly to doing all the work & having someone else claim my kill & me.

 

There are those who would say, "this is a small group PvP area" and that if you want to quest in this area, role with friends/guildies who can escort you or you run the risk of this happening to you. This is an MMO after all."

 

What would you say to that?