A thought on being non-cannon [spoilers]

[iWeasle]

Okay, so basic information, I am a loyal imp who has always wanted to side with Malgus in The False Emperor Flashpoint. I understand why when it was made that couldn't be done, Malgus's New Empire would have made everything go differently if you sided with them, and likely would have won the war with the Republic, making all of the future cannon confusing at best. But SWTOR isn't cannon anymore, it was declared non-cannon, so in theory, we could get that storyline now.

I'm not suggesting that everything be ignored, but couldn't we now, since there isn't the issue of what it would do to the cannon isn't present, have the option to make choices that lead down a non-cannon pro-Empire path? Couldn't Bioware technically introduce some new content that lets you side with Malgus and lead the new empire to victory? It would be trickier now due to Rise of the Hutt Cartel and Shadow of Revan, I totally get that, I think it would be really awesome if they were to introduce a way to side with Empire, and have the ability to actually bring the Empire victory, instead of the inevitable defeat that cannon requires? I know I'm not the only one who wants that to at least be an option.

[Darth_Wicked]

*canon

 

Also, the New Empire, as we have now, comes fairly close to what Malgus envisioned, namely an Empire "tempered by alien alliances and strengthened by tolerance".

Edited February 25, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[jovianus]

I am still disappointed that we didn't get 'The False Emperor' as an expansion.

 

Still have an excuse for a joint storyline to save Bioware money, but you actually have a setup/villain who both sides could actually be sympathetic too, whereas Revan is much more, "Oh my God! Again? Why won't you just die all ready? And take all these halfwit lunatics with you!"

Edited February 25, 2015 by jovianus

[iWeasle]

Yeah but it's still fun to see Revan again .

And I get that the Empire did start to change post Malgus, I just wish I coulda sided with him and hurried the process

[rashencyberspeed]

Uh... where was it confirmed this game is non-canon?

[Leaveshill]

I am still disappointed that we didn't get 'The False Emperor' as an expansion.

 

Still have an excuse for a joint storyline to save Bioware money, but you actually have a setup/villain who both sides could actually be sympathetic too, whereas Revan is much more, "Oh my God! Again? Why won't you just die all ready? And take all these halfwit lunatics with you!"

 

My reaction when it was told to me, by the developers themselves.

Darth Bioware .. "Customer... We never told you who'd be our next villain."

Customer. "No, but we'd like the Emperor now, thank you."

Darth Bioware. "No. Revan is the villain."

Customer. "No..No...That's not true. That's impossible, we killed him!"

Darth Bioware. "Search your feelings, you know it is true."

Customer. "Nooooo. NOOOOOOO."

That being said, "the False Emperor" expanison would've been so, so much better than both SOR and RotHC put together. Not that I didn't enjoy them, but this would've been as great as the original parts of the game. Something the two expansions never did (From my POW,at least)

[Darth_Wicked]

Uh... where was it confirmed this game is non-canon?

 

A while back already. Game is part of the Legends universe.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Ghisallo]

Uh... where was it confirmed this game is non-canon?

 

April 2014 Disney announed all existing products save the 6 screenplays, TCW and Rebles toons were non-canon. This even includes the novelizations of the movies as they have extra scenes and changed scenes.

[rashencyberspeed]

April 2014 Disney announed all existing products save the 6 screenplays, TCW and Rebles toons were non-canon. This even includes the novelizations of the movies as they have extra scenes and changed scenes.

 

But they also said that any future Star Wars content would be part of canon. And SWTOR is still having new stuff added to it. In other words, new Star Wars content.

[Ghisallo]

But they also said that any future Star Wars content would be part of canon. And SWTOR is still having new stuff added to it. In other words, new Star Wars content.

 

No...legitimately new stuff...meaning from the jump. So a brand new video game published would be Canon or a new book...a continuation of a Legends series however remains Legends. I know people don't want to think SWTOR is not canon because to some that is important to them (for whatever reason) but until SWTOR II (which would be a "new" game and not just a sequel to non-canon) SWTOR is not Canon.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ghisallo

[rashencyberspeed]

No...legitimately new stuff...meaning from the jump. So a brand new video game published would be Canon or a new book...a continuation of a Legends series however remains Legends. I know people don't want to think SWTOR is not canon because to some that is important to them (for whatever reason) but until SWTOR II (which would be a "new" game and not just a sequel to non-canon) SWTOR is not Canon.

 

From my perspective, you just don't understand what new stuff means. Where was it stated that new content being added to legends would still be considered legends?

 

Also, here's an article worth looking at: http://www.gamefront.com/is-star-wars-the-old-republic-canon-ask-disney/

 

According to it, the actual answer regarding SWTOR's place in Canon is "no idea". However, the fact that BioWare explicitly talks to Disney regarding decisions seems VERY telling.

 

I think SWTOR IS canon. And not just because I'm a fan.

[Ghisallo]

From my perspective, you just don't understand what new stuff means. Where was it stated that new content being added to legends would still be considered legends?

 

Also, here's an article worth looking at: http://www.gamefront.com/is-star-wars-the-old-republic-canon-ask-disney/

 

According to it, the actual answer regarding SWTOR's place in Canon is "no idea". However, the fact that BioWare explicitly talks to Disney regarding decisions seems VERY telling.

 

I think SWTOR IS canon. And not just because I'm a fan.

 

Sorry but you do not. Parts 1, 2, 3 etc of anything rely on the prior parts. There is now no SWTOR without Revan, with Satele, with Vitiate. Disney does not want to be tied to ANYTHING but 6 screenplays and 2 cartoons. Do you like it? No. Do others like it? No. Doesn't matter. Do a Google search and read Disney's announcement and don't read some glorified video game fan site where people lack critical reading and thing skills.

 

In the announcement they FIRST say the only Canon and the corner stone of Canon will be 6 screen plays and 2 cartoons. Period...dead stop. Then they say things approved and created after that date will also be Canon. In essence Disney said " 8 things are Canon to start and after that only what we approve is Canon." This game was not approved by Disney but Lucas. Lucas has no control over SW anymore, to the point Disney said "thanks but no thanks" when it came to his ideas for Episode VII. SWTOR is not Canon period. All you need to do is turn off your desire for it to be canon, read the actual press release from Disney, and then apply basic critical reading skills followed by simple logic.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ghisallo

[rashencyberspeed]

Sorry but you do not. Parts 1, 2, 3 etc of anything rely on the prior parts. There is now no SWTOR without Revan, with Satele, with Vitiate. Disney does not want to be tied to ANYTHING but 6 screenplays and 2 cartoons. Do you like it? No. Do others like it? No. Doesn't matter. Do a Google search and read Disney's announcement and don't read some glorified video game fan site where people lack critical reading and thing skills.

 

Nothing but those 8 sources and entirely new material after April 2014 is canon and because some glorified fan site can't use basic logic and critical thinking to overcome wishful thinking changes nothing. Not trying to sound rude here but when I read you link I was wondering if the person who wrote it graduated from High School as the thought process was devoid of anything resembling logic or an understanding of how canon, lore etc are assembled. Does it make any sense to say SWTOR exists in Canon as of SoR and not before? That is essentially what you are hoping for. It makes no sense so stop hoping.

 

The whole point of the announcement by Disney was to blow away everything they did not personally approve of etc. Lucas approved the leasing of rights to Bioware for SWTOR. Lucas is gone. His wishes, views etc for Star Wars and the universe are gone. Welcome to a brave new world.

 

Whatever you say, Mr. Confirmation Bias.

 

You have absolutely no evidence supporting your claim other than "Disney declared the entire EU non-canon." And when confronted on the matter of how they ALSO announced that ALL future content would be part of the new canon, you choose it to handwave it with "oh but this game was a thing before then so it doesn't count."

 

Not to mention Disney officially gave Star Wars game development rights to EA, which implies anything from them would be part of canon. And that includes SWTOR, since BioWare is a subsidiary of EA.

 

You can delude yourself all you want. Heck, I'll admit I have nothing concretely proving it is canon. But the fact is, this game is a very gray area and ultimately your evidence towards it being non-canon is no stronger than my evidence that it is canon.

[Ghisallo]

Whatever you say, Mr. Confirmation Bias.

 

You have absolutely no evidence supporting your claim other than "Disney declared the entire EU non-canon." And when confronted on the matter of how they ALSO announced that ALL future content would be part of the new canon, you choose it to handwave it with "oh but this game was a thing before then so it doesn't count."

 

Not to mention Disney officially gave Star Wars game development rights to EA, which implies anything from them would be part of canon. And that includes SWTOR, since BioWare is a subsidiary of EA.

 

You can delude yourself all you want. Heck, I'll admit I have nothing concretely proving it is canon. But the fact is, this game is a very gray area and ultimately your evidence towards it being non-canon is no stronger than my evidence that it is canon.

 

First I edited my post. 2nd Disney did NOT give EA the Rights. Lucas sold the rights to EA for 10 years, Disney can not make that go away. What the latest agreement was about was defining what rights Disney had regarding mobile games etc and the IP. This is how tort and contract law works. If I create something lease rights to use my creation to a third party then sell complete control to someone else later... The lease does not go poof.

 

Listen...I am not happy with this. There is PLENTY now consigned to Legends I positively love. I am not doing any hand waving. I simply understand that it makes NO logical sense that prior to SoR Satele, Revan etc did not exist. Not suddenly because an expac is produced they "poof" into existence? That makes zero sense. But don't take my word for it...

 

As for evidence.....

 

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page

 

For over 35 years, the Expanded Universe has enriched the Star Wars experience for fans seeking to continue the adventure beyond what is seen on the screen. When he created Star Wars, George Lucas built a universe that sparked the imagination, and inspired others to create. He opened up that universe to be a creative space for other people to tell their own tales. This became the Expanded Universe, or EU, of comics, novels, videogames, and more.

 

While Lucasfilm always strived to keep the stories created for the EU consistent with our film and television content as well as internally consistent, Lucas always made it clear that he was not beholden to the EU. He set the films he created as the canon. This includes the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars. These stories are the immovable objects of Star Wars history... Under Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy’s direction, the company for the first time ever has formed a story group to oversee and coordinate all Star Wars creative development... In order to give maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers and also preserve an element of surprise and discovery for the audience, Star Wars Episodes VII-IX will not tell the same story

 

So may an author, screenwriter etc swipe a bit here or there from SWTOR or whatever? Yep. BUT SWTOR in total is not Canon and all you ad hominem attacks and wishful thinking (or mine for that matter since I loved some of the Old Republic Comic storylines and Zahn's books) won't change it. You will find a similar link to the above on Del Ray books For label BTW. http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/04/disney-and-del-rey-announce-new-qunified-canonq-for-upcoming-star-wars-expanded-universe-novels

 

So yes the entire EU prior to April 2014 is non-canon. Only need to to do a little Googling to find it. Your comment about gray areas also ignores an IMPORTANT bit. When you spend 4 BILLION dollars for a property you DO NOT leave gray areas over what you do and do not control, over what is and what is not canon. It sucks, its a PITA, but the stuff we have come to love, this game, books, comics, are NOT Canon...and if what my IT buddy tells me (who is on the movie) is correct, more than a few are going to be pissy at the movie too. Sounds cool to me but it is not something Lucas would have done.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ghisallo

[SelinaH]

Whatever you say, Mr. Confirmation Bias.

 

You have absolutely no evidence supporting your claim other than "Disney declared the entire EU non-canon." And when confronted on the matter of how they ALSO announced that ALL future content would be part of the new canon, you choose it to handwave it with "oh but this game was a thing before then so it doesn't count."

 

Not to mention Disney officially gave Star Wars game development rights to EA, which implies anything from them would be part of canon. And that includes SWTOR, since BioWare is a subsidiary of EA.

 

You can delude yourself all you want. Heck, I'll admit I have nothing concretely proving it is canon. But the fact is, this game is a very gray area and ultimately your evidence towards it being non-canon is no stronger than my evidence that it is canon.

Unless the devs toss everything they've built to date when creating new content for TOR, any old content tied to new, "canon" stuff would, by necessity, implicitly become canon as well -- which goes against the Disney announcement. I don't see how it's possible to split the game up into discrete "canon" and "non-canon" elements without a clean slate and a reboot -- at which point they might as well scrap the Hero Engine and start working on SW:TOR 2 instead.

[Ghisallo]

Unless the devs toss everything they've built to date when creating new content for TOR, any old content tied to new, "canon" stuff would, by necessity, implicitly become canon as well -- which goes against the Disney announcement. I don't see how it's possible to split the game up into discrete "canon" and "non-canon" elements without a clean slate and a reboot -- at which point they might as well scrap the Hero Engine and start working on SW:TOR 2 instead.

 

Its not possible.

 

Disney specifically said that every bit and piece of SW for the first time will need detailed and explicit approval to be published, if it is to be Canon (beyond the 8 properties.) They did not explicitly approve any Bioware story to date. SoR is not a "new" story it is simply the next chapter in a story they had nothing to do with. Now any brand new game, not new chapter, will be Canon per their announcement so we shall see. But SWTOR is clearly not Canon...period.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ghisallo

[rashencyberspeed]

That article also says: "While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels."

 

So they can put stuff from Legends into the current canon. So there is room for SWTOR being part of it. And the main reason the EU was thrown out was to give more creative freedom to Episodes 7-9. SWTOR, being thousands of years in the past, doesn't affect that. It can easily

 

And you've gotten a fact completely wrong.

 

Disney didn't give the rights to EA? It was before then?

 

Wrong. It was Disney who gave EA the rights: http://www.ea.com/news/ea-and-disney-team-up-on-new-star-wars-games

 

So don't insult me with "wishful thinking" and "ad hominen", and quit being so full of yourself with "I'm right, period".

 

The concrete state of SWTOR's place in canon... simply is unknown at this point. There is reasonable evidence and cases for either being true. Stop thinking in absolutes. Until the day comes when Disney explicitly says whether SWTOR is or is not covered by their policies, you have no perfect proof. So stop acting like you do.

[Ghisallo]

Simply because it is not discarded does NOT make it Canon. He's if someone decides to take this or that BIT it becomes part of the Canon BIT SWTOR is not part of the Canon. The fact you are now arguing minutia about how some elements of the EU have made it into Canon vs a complete title from the EU is or is not Canon says a lot.

 

You also are ignorant of the history of the Star Wars History in terms of video games. SOE had the rights to the MMO world for a while, Single Player RPGs were over at Bioware for the same time for a bit. Lucas did not renew SOE rights and then leased them to Bioware. This happened in 2006 and was, if I remember right, a 10 year contract. Disney was bound by this legal obligation.

 

Hence the new agreement that you link is simply EXTENDING the existing contracts that would still be valid until next year. Hence anything that happened this year happened under the auspices of the PRE Disney contract.

 

Again you are wrong SWTOR is not Canon. If someone chooses to take a bit here or there it will make it in BUT that will be entirely at the discretion of those writers. If something is Canon there is no discretion. In terms of the fictional universe it is fact. So even using the logic you put forth here, SWTOR is not Canon.

 

So they can put STUFF from Legends into the current canon

 

Also if you took what I said insulting that is your problem. You engaged in an ad hominem attack with your "Mr. Confirmation Bias" comment and it is not an insult to point out someone is wrong when they are among mature adults. Facts may be inconvenient but they can't be insulting.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Preventer-Blaze]

I'll just leave it here: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/lucasfilm-confirms-all-future-star-wars-content-to-be-canon-including-the-games/1100-6419225/

 

As far as we know, Legends/EU = non-Canon now. In the future, this can change, like what happened to Darth Bane... but we do know that they changed his story "a little", thus any Legends will not be the same. They're just left it open in the air if they want to use any of this in the long run.

[Jrr_hypernova]

I'll just leave it here: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/lucasfilm-confirms-all-future-star-wars-content-to-be-canon-including-the-games/1100-6419225/

 

As far as we know, Legends/EU = non-Canon now. In the future, this can change, like what happened to Darth Bane... but we do know that they changed his story "a little", thus any Legends will not be the same. They're just left it open in the air if they want to use any of this in the long run.

 

The only cannon thing about darth bane is he existed and was a Sith Disney could make him a rainbow afroed black ex cop with grudge who says jive turky if they wanted too:D

[Preventer-Blaze]

The only cannon thing about darth bane is he existed and was a Sith Disney could make him a rainbow afroed black ex cop with grudge who says jive turky if they wanted too:D

 

Yeah? This is it, he IS Canon now. He can be the father of Snow White for all I care, but this doesn't change this fact.

If not, he would still fall on his Legends n-Canon status and all the RoT would be left open or with a drastic different approach.

 

Like it or not, this is how things goes. People tend to forget that the Legends status is not a "bad thing". It's another universe (like always was as EU, tbh). If people prefer the TOR era, then so be it, this can be made official in the long run, even if not, it's still an amazing era. Same goes for the NJO era, that's why they left in the air to writters continue the Legends, I guess.

[eldefail]

I look at "Legends" in a positive light. The word is defined as being either a traditional, unauthenticated story regarded as historical truth (to some degree at least), or someone extremely famous or notorious.

 

I look at SWTOR being "Legend" status as just that. By the time the movie era rolls around The Old Republic is all a bunch of legend, and likely embellished beyond all reason. We can look at it like we're playing the movie era's version of The Old Republic, and any officially canon works in the future can confirm that their depiction, stories, understanding of, and legends from the Old Republic are fairly accurate, or it can confirm that it's all fantastical legend and completely distorted or never even happened.

 

Either way it doesn't screw up TOR any, in fact it could give creative works more license to be just that--creative. They can draw from the expanded universe without some of the more insipid, ill-conceived, glorified bad fan fiction stuff hampering creativity or good story telling. And it isn't impossible for Disney to give EA/Bioware the green light as far as SWTOR's canon status goes, I look at it more like they hit the EU Reset Button. It's likely they'll continue to draw from it in the future and they may re-canonize some things in the future. We don't know yet.

[Ghisallo]

Yeah? This is it, he IS Canon now. He can be the father of Snow White for all I care, but this doesn't change this fact.

If not, he would still fall on his Legends n-Canon status and all the RoT would be left open or with a drastic different approach.

 

Like it or not, this is how things goes. People tend to forget that the Legends status is not a "bad thing". It's another universe (like always was as EU, tbh). If people prefer the TOR era, then so be it, this can be made official in the long run, even if not, it's still an amazing era. Same goes for the NJO era, that's why they left in the air to writters continue the Legends, I guess.

 

I think the point he is trying to make is that the new Canon has the right/ability to take things out of their original context. and to some people a Character being removed from the original context, and/or changed in a substantive was is simply no longer the same character.

 

I think the one thing you miss though is that, as far as I know, there will be no more Books that are not Canon From Del Ray's Tor label. This game will continue beyond 2016 yes, because of the new contract, but as far as I understand any other SW video game will have to fall under this little part of the announcement...

 

Under Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy’s direction, the company for the first time ever has formed a story group to oversee and coordinate all Star Wars creative development....This future of interconnected storytelling will allow fans to explore this galaxy in deeper ways than ever before.”

 

So as far as I can tell it doesn't look like Legends will continue to grow. Legends is, in essence, the "past" of the Star Wars franchise and, from their perspective, they move forward into a world where what is an what is not Canon is firmly controlled from the beginning and thus does not need bizarre rules or an on line holicron to figure things out.

[Preventer-Blaze]

I think the point he is trying to make is that the new Canon has the right/ability to take things out of their original context. and to some people a Character being removed from the original context, and/or changed in a substantive was is simply no longer the same character.

 

I think the one thing you miss though is that, as far as I know, there will be no more Books that are not Canon From Del Ray's Tor label. This game will continue beyond 2016 yes, because of the new contract, but as far as I understand any other SW video game will have to fall under this little part of the announcement...

 

 

 

So as far as I can tell it doesn't look like Legends will continue to grow. Legends is, in essence, the "past" of the Star Wars franchise and, from their perspective, they move forward into a world where what is an what is not Canon is firmly controlled from the beginning and thus does not need bizarre rules or an on line holicron to figure things out.

 

I'm not denying, but that's why I say he can be the Snow's dad, it's the law, no? They're in theirs right doing whatever they want with the IP.

 

The only thing is, I NEVER say Legends would continue to grow, but they left it open as far as I can tell, with this SWTOR for example. It's possible we see another novel like the 4 we already have in this period, that's just it.

 

But there are people who prefer the Legends banner, it's a rich universe with many stories, many characters and all, we have to throw this out of the window? No, it's still exist, pretty much like the views from eldefail post above yours. It's not a bad thing, they could have really just erased everything, without "re-releases" and such, without taking chars/things from those eras. They need to be different because of theirs vision, theirs settings.

 

The thing is, everyone can blame me, but I think that now everything is better for SW in the large scale of things.. we have talks/rumors about movies (and spin-offs!), we have things goin' in to the official universe, etc and etc. Star Wars was always great, but in this level? It's amazing!

[Darkelefantos]

I rather enjoy not being a cannon, to be honest. It certainly has its benefits. You see, I really would... oh, you were talking about something else? Nevermind then!