The tragedy of FOTM - why FOTM destroys PvP in the long term

[AlrikFassbauer]

Hello, everyone,

 

I think the consensus most of us would agree to ( please tell me if you believe otherwise ! ) is that FOTM classes ( and in this case I mean with "FOTM" actually "overpowerted classes which a great number or even a majority chooses to play because it is overpowered" ) make PvP kind of boring ... Boring in the same way as you get the same meal every day, over and over again, and that for weeks, then months, then years.

 

In short : FOTM mekes you feel fed up at one point. except for those taking profit from FOTM classes, of course.

 

I found an Wikipedia article which showed me how real the danger is :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_dilemma

 

I quote from there ( bold printing by me ) :

 

A social dilemma is a situation in which an individual profits from selfishness unless everyone chooses the selfish alternative, in which case the whole group loses.[1] Problems arise when too many group members choose to pursue individual profit and immediate satisfaction rather than behave in the group’s best long-term interests.

 

In this example, selfishness = FOTM classes.

Because FOTM classes are overpowered, and selfishness and other factors (like, for example, the inability to stand being defeated) dictates that people rather win than loose a match, they choose those FOTM classes.

 

If the number of people choosing FOTM classes exceeds a certain border line, then we see more FOTM than other clases.

And the result of this is that we might get bored with playing against or with FOTM classes in the same way as a person gets bored by being served the same meal over and over again, days, weeks, months.

Result - as far as I can perceive it - : FOTM makes PvP lose its "taste".

 

A social dilemma is a situation in which an individual profits from selfishness unless everyone chooses the selfish alternative, in which case the whole group loses.[1] Problems arise when too many group members choose to pursue individual profit and immediate satisfaction rather than behave in the group’s best long-term interests..

 

In this example, "the group’s best long-term interests" are : Varied, interesting PvP.

"interesting" in the same sense as a variety of meals doesn't one feel "fed up".

 

It is a shame, imho, that a member of the community must point out to that effect that the existence and overexploitation of FOTM classes creates.

 

In my personal opinion, the developer is responsinble for that, not the commiunity.

Why ? Because the developeres create the basic ground on which thehouse called "PvP is build upon.

If one part of that ground is faulty ( or even more parts ! ), then the whole house might crumble and fall to dust one day.

 

So, if you want PvP to be interesting in the long term - according to what I have described above - then the only advice I can give is this :

 

Stay away from FOTM classes !

Rather play what you want than what you need or think you need ( for example by peer pressure ) !

 

 

But, that leads me to another problem :

 

There might be - among others - 2 types of PvP players :

 

- Those who don't want to lose or don't want to get steamrolled

- Those who want to steamroll because they consider steamrolling as fun.

 

Those who don't want to lose might find or get to the belief that tzhey actually NEED to play overpowered classes - if they want to be competitive against extremely skilled, extremly well coordinated players or both - or if they want to be competitive - from an subjective point of view - against highly coordinateed premades.

 

This places the need for balance at an so much higher top point for creating "interesting" PvP matches than it is right now.

 

But - that isn't everything :

It also puts the hard necxledted poiunt of social responsibility at an so much higher point than it is now.

 

You want a healthy PvP community ? You want healthy PvP matches ?

 

Then teach Newbies ! Explain them all your "dirty tricks" ! Use the chat for that, even if you are standing on the "enemies' side" !

 

As "aces" : Gimp yourself ! Play classes which are anti-FOTM ! Explicitely play classes which are the worst of all ! Because your skill can make them still be feasible and competitive !

 

You feel too high to do that ? Then don't whine if PvP goes further downhill.

 

(Some people might actually do that : Destroy PvP in the long term - and then quit and move on to thenext MMO, destroy PvP there as well, then move on to the next MMO ... and so on, and so on, leaviong a scorched earth behind them ...)

 

And last, let me quote this again, just to remind you of it :

 

 

A social dilemma is a situation in which an individual profits from selfishness unless everyone chooses the selfish alternative, in which case the whole group loses.[1] Problems arise when too many group members choose to pursue individual profit and immediate satisfaction rather than behave in the group’s best long-term interests.

 

Alrik

Edited February 24, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Desplain]

I agree.

 

Played several WZ on T3-M4 and we had only groups of operatives and hatred assasins against us.

 

That's pretty boring.

[TheJollyRogers]

I agree.

 

Played several WZ on T3-M4 and we had only groups of operatives and hatred assasins against us.

 

That's pretty boring.

 

Didn't realize operatives were still FOTM. For a FOTM class we definitely are sucking in the leaderboards against the wall of PTs and Sins.

 

Agreed, though - I always MVP the people playing Sniper, Mercenary or Marauder in solo 4v4. You have to be pretty masochistic to endure that.

Edited February 24, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[cs_zoltan]

As "aces" : Gimp yourself ! Play classes which are anti-FOTM ! Explicitely play classes which are the worst of all ! Because your skill can make them still be feasible and competitive !

 

That's what I've been doing since like 1.7. But FOTM rerollers won't do that, they won't even play viable middle of the pack specs. Because they are pathetic and can only be any use on a fotm spec.

[JouerTue]

this is valid thread.

[sithBracer]

Ah prisoner dilemma and tragedy of the commons, what is that micro economics 101?

 

How about people just play what they want. Besides 95% of hatred sins and tactics VGs are horrible anyway.

[TUXs]

As "aces" : Gimp yourself ! Play classes which are anti-FOTM ! Explicitely play classes which are the worst of all ! Because your skill can make them still be feasible and competitive !

Ha! Been doing that as a Commando since beta...

 

In general, I disagree with the premise because I think most developers strive to eliminate FOTM classes, but in this game where tweaks to classes take 18+ months, they have a far greater impact on the game long term.

[Ottoattack]

I dont agree with OP. People always do what is in their best interest. In fact, this the building block of capitalist economy, which majority, if not all of us live in.

 

Theory aside, many people, like me, have lvl 55 or 60 of all classes and tend to play all classes. Why would I stick with an under performing class? TBH, I sticked with my PT even through tough times, but overall, I will play only one of the stronger specs.

[Hei_Atzfel]

Why would I stick with an under performing class?

 

Because you enjoy playing said class? I rolled a concealment operative around 2.3 when they were pretty crap and continued playing her all the way until right now. My deception sin that I rolled back at 2.0 when I started playing? With the current fairly crappy state of deception? I'm still playing her as my main. Because the spec is FUN.

[AngusFTW]

I feel dirty after 2 games on my shadow in serenity spec.. idk how people do it..

[Zoom_VI]

I'm just going to keep playing the exact same class I have been playing since 2011.

[AndriusAjax]

I love this post. Couldn't agree more. I've played VG since launch and haven't looked back. Yes, we have it good for now, but it'll change. I think that as one of several players who sticks to his favorite class and doesn't bounce around to the best class like some kind of whore, I look at fotm hopping as waves of **** I have to swim through. Whether it be a nasty, ****** wave of opposing hatred sins, or a shifty wave of poor playing VGs on my team, or just the **** filled waves of people telling me to "roll serenity shadow" 30+ times in one thread about ranked pvp. These fads create the exact opposite environment than what I want in pvp. I don't pve bc it's repetitive and routine. Pvp, in some regards, heads that direction when the majority jumps ship for fotm.

[Joesixxpack]

My 1st char was seer then tele, 2nd tank then tactics, 3rd madness sin; and those ended up being my favorites since launch, particularly madness. So I'm just continuing to play what I've always liked most.

 

The rest of you though are FOTM rerollers and should feel bad.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Joesixxpack

[hallucigenocide]

i'm not to bothered.. these people will never be any good anyway. i get that proven on a daily basis. constantly getting jumped by clueless sins. but it does get a bit boring when it's the only thing you see Edited February 25, 2015 by hallucigenocide

[Armadyil]

So true. I main a Lethality operative and other favorites are Saboteur Gunslinger, Plasmatech Vanguard and IO Merc. I even stopped playing my Deception Assassin because all the other Hatred Sins ruined it for me. Thinking about going a Watchman Sent as well, but that might be a little too much...

 

Lethality is the most fun spec around imo, and Saboteur and Plasmatech are way more fun than their (more or less) OP counterparts.

[ForceWelder]

Are FOTM an issue ...

 

Sure they are. But to me the bigger issue is playing Repub when half your team can't even hit the 250k mark in either damage or healing. And why can't they hit that most simplistic of marks? Because half the freaken team is running around in augmented raid gear and as a result they get clobbered. Which in turn means the rest of the team doesn't stand a chance either.

 

I would rather seem them in Rishi pirate gear so that they at least get bolstered properly than run around in augmented raid gear that screws them on bolster and lack of expertise.

 

I truly can't understand how this works. How is it that after all this time since 3.0 released we still have most of the Repubs queuing in PoT5 without the basic gear? It really doesn't take that long to get the Exhume set.

 

Give me a team that is appropriately geared and my DPS average is around 900k with some off healing around 100k. Give me a half a team in PVE raid and my DPS drops down to less than 400k / match and my off healing won't even break 25k.

 

So why bring up this gear incompetence on the Repub side?

 

Because when you put FOTM against a PVE team the results are truly ugly. Your PVE gear team spends more time rezing than they do fighting. Within three minutes the match is over. Your team gives up and the Imps walk away with an easy victory they didn't even have to work for.

[cs_zoltan]

So true. I main a Lethality operative and other favorites are Saboteur Gunslinger, Plasmatech Vanguard and IO Merc.

 

You are the best

I'm playing the same specs + Fury, Deception, and Corruption.

[Master-Nala]

My main has been a Balance Sage since the first day of early access and always will be. Folks should play what they want to play. If that spec is underpowered then so be it. But conversely, if it is currently 'FOTM' a player shouldn't feel under any obligation to play something else.

[Natharon]

What pretentiousness.

 

FOTM doesn't mean most overpowered class. It means most popular class. If all the classes were mathematically balanced there would still be FOTM classes. All it takes is a couple good players playing a class with a measure of success against the swarms of below average players. That leads to ill conceived balancing and the class weakest against the new balanced class now has an edge no other class has.

 

I would bet if all the classes were exactly the same, only difference being names, animations and ability names, same utility, same damage, same healing capacity, you would still see massive nerf threads and rage quit posts.

[sithBracer]

What pretentiousness.

 

FOTM doesn't mean most overpowered class. It means most popular class. If all the classes were mathematically balanced there would still be FOTM classes. All it takes is a couple good players playing a class with a measure of success against the swarms of below average players. That leads to ill conceived balancing and the class weakest against the new balanced class now has an edge no other class has.

 

I would bet if all the classes were exactly the same, only difference being names, animations and ability names, same utility, same damage, same healing capacity, you would still see massive nerf threads and rage quit posts.

 

It was actually pretty balanced in 2.6 or 2.7 and the QQ still kept coming.

[Floplag]

i see a lot of people here talking about how they have been thus and so since early release/beta/whatever... i would say to them that regardless of whatever the current FOTM may be, that label does not apply to you.

 

FOTM to me applies to the bandwagon tards that just roll from class to class to play whatever is the most powerful.

 

I PvP a lot.. enough to know for the most part who was a Sin or PT on my server pre 3.0, and who the bdanwaggoners are. You can tell both by the names and the gameplay for those who actually know the class, and those who spent 5 minutes reading a guide if even putting in that much effort. The problem the current crop of fotm is that you can do very well without anything resembling a clue.

 

Again for those who have been a sin or PT or even a sorc for some times now... please take no offense at any FOTM comments i may make at any given time, they are not meant for you.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Again for those who have been a sin or PT or even a sorc for some times now... please take no offense at any FOTM comments i may make at any given time, they are not meant for you.

 

Same for Gunslingers ?

 

FOTM doesn't mean most overpowered class. It means most popular class.

 

Why are classes popular ?

Edited February 25, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer

[Jimmajamma]

You know what really destroys pvp in the long term? A non-existent dev team.

 

FOTM wouldn't really be that bad. Problem is it's usually FO6M around here. That becomes an issue.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Jimmajamma

[Floplag]

Same for Gunslingers ?

Why are classes popular ?

 

i wouldnt consider GS/Snipers to be FOTM but if they become so then yes

 

Ive been a very vocal opponent of the FOTM re-rolls.. i think its basically an admission that you suck if you have to jump to the OP class to PvP. You are basically the viagra of the PvP world if you jump OP to OP.

 

Some people have been offended by my comments. Im just saying that if you were any of these classes before they got OP or have rolled with them thru think and thin then i mean you no offense. As for the rest of you.. well yeah.. deal with it. either way i would encourage those who are offended to talk to me directly and not involve others, it isnt like they are going to shut me up so.. meh, nuff said.

 

As to why classes are popular, there are many reasons.. some for play style, some for animations, maybe for lore or back story.. who knows, likely 100 reasons if there is 1... But in the case of the FOTM it has nothing to do with anything but the ability to take on 3 at a time and pretend its because you are good instead of your class, kinda funny really.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Floplag

[AlrikFassbauer]

i wouldnt consider GS/Snipers to be FOTM but if they become so then yes

 

My reply was actually kind of ironic ; I personally call both classes "Anti-FOTM", because no-one seems to play them.

 

 

 

FOTM doesn't mean most overpowered class. It means most popular class.

 

Then why is this ? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=798749

 

Quoted from there :

 

The leaderboards viewed from the top

 

Powertech, Vanguard, Powertech, Powertech, Shadow, Assassin, Powertech, Powertech, Vanguard, Assassin, Assassin, Shadow, Vanguard, Shadow, Vanguard, Powertech, Powertech, Vanguard, Shadow, Assassin, Shadow, Vanguard...

Edited February 25, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer