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the Mongoose and the Cobra... stealth and Mercs


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Weve had a ton of talk about this class and that, about balance, whats OP and what isnt, but at the end of the day it seems to me that the real problem and what seems to make certain classes more OP than other is the lack of the mongoose to its cobra, which is to say a lack of a natural counter.

 

Consider the current run on stealth classes... they are strong enough in thier own right but the real issue is that noone can actually counter them effectively. Even other stealth classes are about 50/50 it all about whoever happens to bump into who first, its pure chance... enter the Merc.

 

I think the idea is that a Merc is kinda sorta supposed to have that role with stealths, but the Stealth Scan is so brief, so obvious, and so easy to avoid its rather pointless. Maybe the answer to all that which would bring more balance into the game in general, and make Mercs less than the fodder they are currently is buffing that one skill.

 

The specific idea in general was suggested by another but it got me thinking that would really be the game changer in many ways. Buffing that single skill to emanate from the merc, move with him, and have a long enough range, duration, and effect that it at least makes those classes think about it instead of flocking to them, might bring the balance back without gutting those classes, buffing anyone else, or requiring a myriad of changes to numerous classes.

 

Wishful thinking i know but it could accomplish a lot with one simple step as opposed to 20 without affecting pve, damage, or anything else. anyway.. flame on i guess.. have a peachy day

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This game is trinity based not RPS based. And that's a good thing. RPS class design leads to extremely ****** PvP QoL particularly in a random queue system.

 

Saying X class should counter Y type class is a very bad road to go down.

Edited by Zoom_VI
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I main a DPS operative, a good merc will give me a hard time.

 

Really the only reason I'm not immediately ****ed over against arsenal most times is cause of Concealment's roll, in lethality, a good merc is a lot of trouble.

 

Against assassins? I can understand completely.

Edited by QuiveringPotato
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Weve had a ton of talk about this class and that, about balance, whats OP and what isnt, but at the end of the day it seems to me that the real problem and what seems to make certain classes more OP than other is the lack of the mongoose to its cobra, which is to say a lack of a natural counter.

 

I just want to counter everything, think I'll just reroll Sin.... wait no. That's boring as hell, this game is going to end up with one or two viable classes due to the combat team. :(

 

It's pretty pointless. They are not going to look / read / listen / test / check feedback, we've given them tons and they've trolled us by adding 1s to pinning fire.

 

I just get the impression they don't have a clue about the classes or the meta, or what DCD actually means, pinning fire isn't it. They are way off the mark, so much so that they're in a different universe, probably WarHammer still.

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I main a DPS operative, a good merc will give me a hard time.

 

Really the only reason I'm not immediately ****ed over against arsenal most times is cause of Concealment's roll, in lethality, a good merc is a lot of trouble.

 

Against assassins? I can understand completely.

 

assassins are easier to kill than ops, in my experience. but sin is fotm so the quality of player pool is thinned out quite a bit more.

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assassins are easier to kill than ops, in my experience. but sin is fotm so the quality of player pool is thinned out quite a bit more.

 

I would say that anyone who has taken the time to actively play an op in PVP will be better than the average sin player, now I find it ****ed up that even then the average sin will win more often just because "spec"

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Weve had a ton of talk about this class and that, about balance, whats OP and what isnt, but at the end of the day it seems to me that the real problem and what seems to make certain classes more OP than other is the lack of the mongoose to its cobra, which is to say a lack of a natural counter.

 

Consider the current run on stealth classes... they are strong enough in thier own right but the real issue is that noone can actually counter them effectively. Even other stealth classes are about 50/50 it all about whoever happens to bump into who first, its pure chance... enter the Merc.

 

I think the idea is that a Merc is kinda sorta supposed to have that role with stealths, but the Stealth Scan is so brief, so obvious, and so easy to avoid its rather pointless. Maybe the answer to all that which would bring more balance into the game in general, and make Mercs less than the fodder they are currently is buffing that one skill.

 

The specific idea in general was suggested by another but it got me thinking that would really be the game changer in many ways. Buffing that single skill to emanate from the merc, move with him, and have a long enough range, duration, and effect that it at least makes those classes think about it instead of flocking to them, might bring the balance back without gutting those classes, buffing anyone else, or requiring a myriad of changes to numerous classes.

 

Wishful thinking i know but it could accomplish a lot with one simple step as opposed to 20 without affecting pve, damage, or anything else. anyway.. flame on i guess.. have a peachy day

I have to Agree the scan should take up a massive area especially now that sins have really good defenses.

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for PvP stealth scan's main benefit is catching a stealther right after they disappear.

 

True, or on one of the ramps in the middle of Alderaan cycled with another aoe when defending. Nothing will sneak up on you that way :cool:

 

It's always amusing watching that lone stealther trying to run away after realising they've been outplayed, only to get stealth broken by a well placed scan :D

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I think a lot to do with improvement we see in sin hatred and operative concealment performance is the addition

of the second shroud/evasion on vanish.

Before this (3.0) you had to be really careful with shroud/evasion, because you had ONLY one...

...will you be aggressive and use it in your opening or save it for retreat, possible 2nd attack?

 

On top of that they gave to sin madness (hatred now) 2 monster tank perks for free:

1. force speed breaks movement impairing effects

2. two seconds longer shroud

Before 3.0 you had to make HUGE sacrifices if you wanted to use those as dps spec.

 

How dumb is that?!!

 

....ohohoh..and the addition of overload root???!!! ..those 3 perks should only be available to sin tanks, imo

 

The only thing that can compete in dumbness with those changes are the ones that PT advanced prototype got...

P.S....you could add lightning sorc changes too......and dot spread also, imo...

 

Lets put it simple; the game was better before 3.0 , not perfect but much better than this.

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I main a DPS operative, a good merc will give me a hard time.

 

Really the only reason I'm not immediately ****ed over against arsenal most times is cause of Concealment's roll, in lethality, a good merc is a lot of trouble.

 

Against assassins? I can understand completely.

lolwut? I can steamroll almost every merc / commando I come across with my ruffian scoundrel (lethality), absolutely no problem. We have AMAZING self heals. Coming from my gunnery commando, ruffian scoundrel is a walk in the park.
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lolwut? I can steamroll almost every merc / commando I come across with my ruffian scoundrel (lethality), absolutely no problem. We have AMAZING self heals. Coming from my gunnery commando, ruffian scoundrel is a walk in the park.

 

Stop fighting backpedalling clickers and your opinion may mean something.

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Stop fighting backpedalling clickers and your opinion may mean something.

 

To be fair, his contention that Ruffian Scoundrels (Lethality Ops) have amazing self heals is absolutely true. Between the HoT, instant Kolto Pack & shield, Ruffian winds up with a very nice healing toolbox. Especially for a spec that can also have a passive 30% AoE reduction, 5% DR, and a purge on a sub-30 second CD.

 

Given equal skill I would expect the Ruffian to win over a Gunnery Commando most times.

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lolwut? I can steamroll almost every merc / commando I come across with my ruffian scoundrel (lethality), absolutely no problem. We have AMAZING self heals. Coming from my gunnery commando, ruffian scoundrel is a walk in the park.

 

Taking 3-4 GCD's for self HoTs every so often is pretty stupid, you're not going to survive against a well-timed arsenal merc's burst, especially if you're not able to try and lock them down because you're too busy rolling about and keeping your heals up.

Edited by QuiveringPotato
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To be fair, his contention that Ruffian Scoundrels (Lethality Ops) have amazing self heals is absolutely true. Between the HoT, instant Kolto Pack & shield, Ruffian winds up with a very nice healing toolbox. Especially for a spec that can also have a passive 30% AoE reduction, 5% DR, and a purge on a sub-30 second CD.

 

Given equal skill I would expect the Ruffian to win over a Gunnery Commando most times.

 

Yes, for duels, but in warzones and ranked I'd say being immune to everything 3/10 seconds > decent self heals.

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I would say that anyone who has taken the time to actively play an op in PVP will be better than the average sin player, now I find it ****ed up that even then the average sin will win more often just because "spec"

 

yeah. sin is relatively difficult to play well, but it's considerably easier than concealment. I don't think there's any room for mistakes on the op. and thrill of the hunt allows mercs to dps through shroud, but everything we do is pretty useless against dodge and lolroll.

 

the only thing that annoys me about a sin fight is server-client latency. I will sometimes fire enet when the sin is clearly not shrouded, but he shrouds before he's actually netted. other than that, the problem is that you're usually not simply dueling with a sin. it feels like there's always 2 of them or a sorc or two hitting you as well. this is just talking about regs. in rated, focus fire is a given, and only really bad teams would allow me to kite someone into a 1v1.

 

anyway...it's kind of funny how merc has developed into a formidable 1v1 AC and isn't terrible vs. sins (but obviously horrible for dealing with focus).

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anyway...it's kind of funny how merc has developed into a formidable 1v1 AC and isn't terrible vs. sins (but obviously horrible for dealing with focus).

 

So true, 1v1 my Merc. doesn't feel that inadequate assuming I've got most of my abilities available. Yet playing on my Sin vs 2 or 3 players I still feel overpowered, definitely can't say that about my Merc.

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I play both a Merc and a Mando and just recently I started kicking the tires on an old Sage in Mid PVP. The sage is barely 36. The other two are 55 and 60 respectively.

 

I struggle in PVP with the Merc / Mando. Other than flat out killing $#%# they just don't seem to have a solid role to play. They suck at defending a node due to a lack of defense against stealth, they suck at trying to take a node (seen from a mile away), and they lack any real utilities against force users. In a match of Huttball, both the Merc and Mando are almost a liability to the team and not viewed as an asset because they simply don't make good ball handers or defenders. And I don't even need to bring up 4 v 4.

 

Sure both the Merc / Mando have utilities like pushback and stuns, but between force users burst speed, force pulls, knockbacks, CC imunity, stuns, and leaps it almost pointless to even try to defend once the ball handler has reach past the final trap to the goal line in Huttball. The most I am going to be able to do on either character is kill the person who scored after the fact, but all you are doing is killing somebody who has probably blew through all of theri CC options and you are better off just trying to go back for the ball.

 

But why bring this up?

 

I bring this up because if anybody is a counter to the stealth class it is the sage. My weak #@$ sage has more versatility than the merc / Mando combined. The AOE alone makes my Mando's Mortar Strike feel like an insult. There is not a choke point in any PVP match that my sage can't control just with one constant cast AOE that has the range of nuclear blast. And if I cast it on top of myself, no stealther is going to get even close to me without popping his / her stealth ruining their attack due to the diameter of the AOE.

 

Even at this level mid levelthe sageI has a damage bubble and a burst run, so I have the "focus escape". Something neither of those two other clases have. The sage has the same level of heal options as the Merc / Mando, and with a better defense bubble, I would argue I actually have to use them less. In PVP, my sage's job isn't to actually kill anybody in a 1 v 1 fight. His job is to hold the node, carry the ball, detect stealthers, or to do group damage in the hopes of overwhelming the opposing team's healers. All four roles it does way better and way easier than what the Merc / Mando bring to the game.

 

Compared to playing Merc / Mando, the sage is easy mode. An incompetent two year old could probably out perform me in any PVP match scenario playing the sage while I am playing on the Merc / Mando if full decked out gear. You honest to god have to work to get either class to perform well in a PVP match and then you still have to be lucky and not be the primary focus in the course of the match.

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yeah. sin is relatively difficult to play well, but it's considerably easier than concealment. I don't think there's any room for mistakes on the op. and thrill of the hunt allows mercs to dps through shroud, but everything we do is pretty useless against dodge and lolroll.

 

the only thing that annoys me about a sin fight is server-client latency. I will sometimes fire enet when the sin is clearly not shrouded, but he shrouds before he's actually netted. other than that, the problem is that you're usually not simply dueling with a sin. it feels like there's always 2 of them or a sorc or two hitting you as well. this is just talking about regs. in rated, focus fire is a given, and only really bad teams would allow me to kite someone into a 1v1.

 

anyway...it's kind of funny how merc has developed into a formidable 1v1 AC and isn't terrible vs. sins (but obviously horrible for dealing with focus).

 

This is the real issue though, focus.

In ranked PVP or even small group unranked focus is the norm, and it is where we are by far the weakest class out there right now, and it isnt really close.

1 sin, yes, we are in the mix, 2-3 of them at once.. no, not really :)

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Stealth scan would not help. As Dein has said 1000 times we need an anti focus move.

 

The stealth scan has a very small diameter and very short lived. And then you have to deal with the CD afterwards. It is beyond ineffective. Even if I dump the scan on top of myself, some range attacks or stuns can still be used outside of the diameter of the scan. Even combined with the Mando's weak AOE attack, you just leave too much real estate uncovered. Short of being lucky you aren't going to detect the stealther before they nail you.

 

Make it a constant scan with no CD, and give it the diameter of the sage's AOE, and then we got something to talk about.

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So true, 1v1 my Merc. doesn't feel that inadequate assuming I've got most of my abilities available. Yet playing on my Sin vs 2 or 3 players I still feel overpowered, definitely can't say that about my Merc.

Yes, but 1v1 isnt the norm in ranked or small group PvP as mentioned, and i know you know this.

2 or 3 versus a merc and you pucker up pretty quickly. I mean anyone does but it comes down to how long you live, not if you life. living 3 seconds versus 10 seconds is a giant different.

This is what the non merc crowd doesnt seem to get.. there is a reason they all go after us, they know what it is, but yet they keep insisting it isnt true, lol. Maybe some of them are just lemmings following the leader and really dont get why its always target the Merc... but if you just take 2 seconds to think about it, the problem is quite obvious

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Ruffian has better heals than mercs, but I'd take a merc over one most of the time. I've played it in 4s and it's very, very fun, but has no real advantages over hatred- besides higher potential burst if the starts align. Merc at least has some actual pros over other classes, like true ranged burst and net. Kolto pack heal should be off the gcd, you already spent a gcd to roll...
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