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The real problem with ranked warzones


skarlson

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The irony in this whole OP sin issue is that sins are not really the problem. It is this mentality of biofail that thinks a single class should have complete immunity to cc for any given period of time. There should be no mechanic whereby someone can have complete immunity to crowd control on a repeatable basis in a short span of time. This all began with rage juggs and maras until they were nerfed into oblivion.

 

This pushed juggs into the heretofore unexplored veng tree where they discovered 4s of cc immunity after charge. On top of this they received the ability to reset charge with force push giving them a total of 8s of cc immunity. They then gave massive boosts to defensive cds. Imagine the delight of juggs, and chagrin of any ranged class with cc as their primary def lacking any meaningful defensive cd especially compared to juggs, to have 8s of free reign to pound on a target.

 

What we end up with is ranked being dominated by melee classes, juggs, and their support team. Did any of this change? Did juggs suddenly become weak? No. They one upped themselves by adding even more cc immunity and thus screwing anyone reliant on cc even more! Let's give a class the ability to be immune to cc what might as well be indefinitely being long enough already to decide a match versus anyone reliant on cc. Without the ideal group to support those otherwise continually helpless classes who continue to have none or worthless defensive cds in an arena setting are bottom rung.

 

There are of course multiple examples of this but I am going to use sorcs as the illustration. They epitomize reliance on cc and lack of defensive cds other than a bubble that takes them out of the action for 8s which not one other class must do for any def cd. They are nearly helpless and simply overpowered by classes who hit hard vs the squishiest class in the game. There will be exceptions but you can very well bet those players are in a class of their own or have some extremely good luck in solo ranked match making. If they were not extremely lucky they worked twice as hard for the same or lesser result as the current easy mode classes.

 

Sorcs are a prime example of this because sorcs taken on their own are not a weak class. They are in the best place they have ever been and have some success per the leader boards. Yet even they, probably one of the stronger classes after PTs and Sins, cannot achieve the same success as said classes. Of course there is juggs though I think some may have simply abandoned a strong class for an OP class e.g. PTs and Sins. If sins did not exist juggs wold be their replacement as the go to ranged killer with their cc immunity just as in the past.

 

PTs of course fall into this but for different reasons although their super unrootable unkitable speed 50% of the time combined with their ridiculous burst accomplishes the same end. With some adjustments they can remain strong while not remaining the obvious choice over anything else. The real culprit here is complete blanket cc immunity for long periods of time WITHOUT addressing the lack of defensives for those RELIANT on cc to survive. Those classes must either work extremely hard for similar results, have extremely good support, be very strong themselves or some combination of these to perform as well under pressure.

 

The key word is pressure. Some classes can survive under pressure so they do not receive it. Others cannot so they do. That is the problem. Ranked is about pressuring your opponent quickly and relentlessly so they fall as quickly as possible. When there is a weak link that cannot survive that pressure they will be the attack point. There should not be such a drastic difference in the ability of classes to survive pressure because it skews a format that is reliant on pressure in favor of those who survive well. CC immunity is the current form this takes but even if that goes, given biofails history, it will be replaced with something else.

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like cc immunity during speed, stun bubble, root on kb, root on skills on both dps specs and a lot of interupt immunity leaves them without tools

 

First, you speak of the infamous 31/31/31 spec which simply does not exist. In order to have stun bubble and root on an otherwise useless kb, only non-360...only one without a built in secondary component like 70% slow...shortest kb range, you cannot have cc immunity on force speed. Second, it is NOT cc immunity it is slow/root immunity which many classes have in some form and arguably superior such as PT spending 50% of their time immune while you spend a max of 15% of your time immune with the right skills.

 

You will also not see many if any sorcs with the required talents, 3 total, due to the high skill tax we have just to reach a baseline survivability and mobility. Something others take for granted because it is FREE. Third, there has yet to be any ability invented that allows you to cast when you are dead which is the topic not interruptibility. Fourth, I never said sorcs are weak...I in fact said they are one of the stronger classes hence the example.

 

To the first poster, yes I do have a sorc which has been my class through thick and thin since launch. I also have a PT, Mara and Scoundrel all of which I rolled originally to get the 4 buffs but which I enjoy playing non-the-less. That is irrelevant because I said sorcs are strong making them a good example to illustrate the original point. It is also irrelevant because most people main multiple classes including a sage or sorc yet can still speak on the topic, what you attempted to do is nothing more than a logical fallacy where you demonize the person you disagree with. You have a sorc oh yeah like we should listen to you!!! Much easier than actually addressing the topic which is not sorcerers.

 

I am not saying anything MANY others have not already voiced when looking at particular issues. I am only pointing out what I believe to the the main flaw in ranked which has yet to actually be addressed by bioware hence the go to classes every season.

Edited by skarlson
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The real problem with ranked is a lack of foresight on Biowares behalf coupled with the win at all cost mentality exhibited by the player base.

 

There may be some win at all costs but there is also the fun component. Who wants to tough it out with a less than optimal class; being farmed or at a severe disadvantage is not fun, it is a job. People play games to have fun so I see not point in playing the class that is not fun, personally.

 

The lack of foresight I agree with; I think the CC immunity is a good example and they keep adding more and more. They failed to address classes who rely on CC due to a lack of reliable defensive CDs. This lack of address necessarily implies they believe control is still a viable and reliable way of allowing a class to do it's job be it killing or healing. Yet they continue to impede that ability and for long stretches of time at that. This is also contrary to the communities general distaste for being controlled at all let alone for long stretches.

 

So you have a game where certain classes are reliant on cc to survive and thrive. Other classes do not want to be controlled. They seem incapable of finding a happy medium leading to either a class being unable to do anything because they are always controlled, their control never works or by the time it works they are already close to dead if not dead.

 

They seem unwilling to take the obvious step of handing out actually useful defensive CDs to allow cc reliant classes to whether the I lolatyourcc phase allowing for some counter play. Even if they took that route they seem incapable foreseeing what is obvious to everyone else and end up either making a class overpowered from to much buffing which then leads to them being nerfed into oblivion due to again incompetence. Either that or token buffs which don't actually accomplish anything except them patting themselves on the back and using it to justify giving another class another huge advantage in the cc resistance which they then take months to address if ever.

 

So we arrive at the state we have today where there is perpetually a class that is over the top. On top of this the opness is more dramatic every cycle.

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No..Smart *** replies to the side; the Op has it spot on. Nobody running a melee will agree to it tho because it could lead to them losing control of the melee haven...Ranked. Well done analysis OP. I at least will agree with you.

 

But what would be the fix of this? Less reliance of CC dcd's in the meta? It's my opinion that it should be so anyway. They are now as of 3.0 completely unreliant anyway; maybe its time for BW to get off their collective butts and start fixing UP classes with the same all bases covered DCD's that the OP classes have..or return it to an earlier time; when this game was more like a turn based RPG.

Edited by KingKalbo
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It is this mentality of biofail that thinks a single class should have complete immunity to cc for any given period of time. There should be no mechanic whereby someone can have complete immunity to crowd control on a repeatable basis in a short span of time.

 

Entrench provides the bare minimum needed for snipers to even function in regs. Snipers are the least mobile class in the game and when they're stunned, they're no longer in cover. Even when engineering could use it twice in a row, it wasn't disruptive.

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so....it's true, the OP runs a sorc

kid, put your eyes in the Leaderborads in Yolo Q for this season

there are 2 classes that will dominate untill the "COMBAT TEAM" gets back from the 2 years vacation, if anything is needed is a tune down in damage output and mobility.

And, if there are 2 classes since 1.2 that have been derping over and over again the pvp meta are consulars/inquisitors

calling a melee class like juggs/guardian OP or even saying it's overtuned is a big mistake

 

not even gonna talk about maras/mercs/snipers wich are simply trash now

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Do you honestly think no class should have CC immunity with all the damage right now? A stun now is like a death sentence.

 

I would be ok with absolutely no cc immunity as it penalizes anyone reliant on cc. The more reliant you are the more penalized you become. It only gets worse as you face more and more classes with cc immunity. That said I expressly stated in this thread that CC immunity for long stretches is the problem or rather a symptom of it. The problem is of course biowares inability to actually bring balance. I dare say most classes are the most balanced they have ever been. Yet bioware has also created two of the worse OP offenders we have ever seen. Their end of spectrums get worse negating any balance they have managed as people flock to the obvious choices.

 

You end up seeing less of the balanced classes because compared to the top end they fall far short. Why put yourself at a competitive disadvantage, it's only logical. Also, a stun is not like a death sentence. Even as a sorc I can for a limited time overcome that stun. The problem is my overcoming it requires me to do nothing, once it is gone I'm dead or I must given up skill tax abilities becoming much less effective overall just to survive for a little longer.

 

This is something a sin does not have to do; they have many great abilities and then tons of cc immunity on top of that for an extended period of time. So long in pvp time the person they are facing is at a huge disadvantage unless you are in the ideal team makeup e.g. group ranked. This sort of inequality where one class can survive and do their job for an extended period for of time while another cannot leads to specific classes being pressured because it is easier. This extended pressure on the less favorable classes penalizes them in solo ranked where a poor matchmaking system is almost guaranteed to give them a poor group makeup.

 

One class can deal with this makeup the other cannot. This is simply not acceptable in the current ranked format as it unfairly favors certain classes over others. It is however neither the fault of people flocking to a given class or the fault of people who choose to stick it out and succeed or fail based on whatever variables they must deal with. There is skill involved as well but it takes more effort on x than it does y due to the favoritism in one direction and there will be some hills x simply cannot overcome while y will have no issue or less issue. Fault lies squarely at the feet of bioware and this latest incarnation is merely a symptom.

 

I actually would have no problem cc being gone entirely if classes reliant on cc had reliable defensive cds. None of thos x class melts in 2s under pressure or 10s while y class takes 30s+ to kill due to their far superior survival. In the current meta though CC immunity while it sucks is not entirely bad. For instance assassin's with force shroud for 4s or 2s after stealth is really not that bad. One can be adjusted to with counter play because it is relatively short. 8s jugg immunity facing 2 juggs however is certain death because they also get to control you in addition to being immune to your control and have superior defensives all while being able to dps you at the same time. Mara's being given force immunity while they are in camo is really not that bad because even at 6s it merely ensures their escape tool is not useless and it breaks when they attack. You can adjust with counter-play once again.

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so....it's true, the OP runs a sorc

kid, put your eyes in the Leaderborads in Yolo Q for this season

there are 2 classes that will dominate untill the "COMBAT TEAM" gets back from the 2 years vacation, if anything is needed is a tune down in damage output and mobility.

And, if there are 2 classes since 1.2 that have been derping over and over again the pvp meta are consulars/inquisitors

calling a melee class like juggs/guardian OP or even saying it's overtuned is a big mistake

 

not even gonna talk about maras/mercs/snipers wich are simply trash now

 

Kid, great start to your post. To sum it up:

 

Name calling, kid, logical fallacy

Straw man, stop whining about sorcs they are fine, logical fallacy

Mistating facts, PT and Sins take the top 2 slots in top 100, damages the validity of your own conclusion

Ignoring original and successive statements, sorcs are strong but even they have issues thus are a good example, in place of addressing the actual concern you create the aforementioned strawman then give nothing but speculative opinion in rebuttal

 

If you are going to talk the least you can do is stay on topic and offer an opinion that is actually valid in context. The context here is pressure. The discussion is the disparity in both surviving pressure while at the same time creating your own pressure from one class to the next. The problem is the disparity is far to large leading to fotmism because people want to have fun not a job when gaming. The symptom or one currently large symptom is cc immunity without addressing the issues that causes for other classes in the current meta. Stay on topic or don't speak.

Edited by skarlson
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Mistating facts, PT and Sins take the top 2 slots in top 100

 

This has nothing to do with CC immunity it has to do with Dot spread and how OP it is since 3.0. All the good Pvpers warned BW that making dots un cleanse able was a huge mistake. So one sin spec is in the top 2 OMG this needs nerfed and is a CC immunity the issue. Sorry what need to be nerfed is dot spread for sorc and sins bring back purge and all will be balanced.

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A breakdown of problems with the format

 

Faction imbalance - corrected by pooling factions together within the solo ranked format

Queue syncing - Corrected by randomizing the queue placement.

Skank tanking - Corrected by locking guard to tank spec disciplines

Class disparities - Corrected by actively reviewing and addressing class imbalance in a timely manner

PVE geared players in ranked queue - Corrected by disabling the queue for less than tier 1 2018 exp PVP gear players.

Trolls - Corrected using a player reporting system that is reviewed and actioned in a timely manner.

Edited by JackNader
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This has nothing to do with CC immunity it has to do with Dot spread and how OP it is since 3.0. All the good Pvpers warned BW that making dots un cleanse able was a huge mistake. So one sin spec is in the top 2 OMG this needs nerfed and is a CC immunity the issue. Sorry what need to be nerfed is dot spread for sorc and sins bring back purge and all will be balanced.

 

Dots are far less powerful than they were in prior incarnations. I used to see dots tick for 2k+; not so much now. I could also roughly equivocate dot spread by simply tab dotting people up for roughly the same effect numbers wise. For that reason I am not 100% in agreement that dot spread is even an issue let alone the issue nor that doing away with it will balance things. There will still be classes that do better because they pressure better under pressure and for longer. Even if what you said is 100% spot on that simply illustrates my original point with another example.

 

BIoware continually creating circumstances for specific classes that cause them to overperform compared to everyone else. Dot spread or cc immunity; over performance is over performance and leads to the same result, fotmism, even if it is for different reasons. Thank you for your comments though I personally do not agree.

Edited by skarlson
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BIoware continually creating circumstances for specific classes that cause them to overperform compared to everyone else. Dot spread or cc immunity; over performance is over performance and leads to the same result, fotmism, even if it is for different reasons. Thank you for your comments though I personally do not agree.

 

There over performing if there 2nd who knew some one has to be second. Your hole augment is flawed from the word go. Sins are over performing because there second place in the rank summary leader board. I know that's proof right there.

 

I reject your logic and substitute my own so lets nerf some people i tell ya

Edited by Neoforcer
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Dots are far less powerful than they were in prior incarnations. I used to see dots tick for 2k+; not so much now. I could also roughly equivocate dot spread by simply tab dotting people up for roughly the same effect numbers wise. For that reason I am not 100% in agreement that dot spread is even an issue let alone the issue nor that doing away with it will balance things. There will still be classes that do better because they pressure better under pressure and for longer. Even if what you said is 100% spot on that simply illustrates my original point with another example.

 

BIoware continually creating circumstances for specific classes that cause them to overperform compared to everyone else. Dot spread or cc immunity; over performance is over performance and leads to the same result, fotmism, even if it is for different reasons. Thank you for your comments though I personally do not agree.

 

it's ok kid

just keep rolling ur sorc

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Ultimately it's not an issue with cc immunity it's an issue with th *********** crazy *** amount of cc, root, slow, die rinse repeat. BW has made it clear that instead if fixing resolve and reducing the cc, root and slow in the game they would rather give out immunity. Until that mentality changes I think we are stuck where we are. Edited by bluesoldier
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