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Who said mids are broken?


Icykill_

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So I've been lvling my 55s to 60 and have 8 there now... I've been seeing lots of people complain here how mids are broken and so is bolster...

I've found it easy to kill 30-50s, so I just assumed people new what they were talking about

So at the beginning of the week I decided to LVL up my LVL 19 Assassin... I had every intention of stopping at 30 because of the discussions in the forums about it being impossible to play mids pre 50... But I got to 30 and thought I'd give it a try...

My experience is that the only difference between 30 and 59s is the defensive abilities, slightly higher health due to LVL stats and some extra dps from some passive abilities as they LVL... This is not really any different than when the bracket was 30-54... Gear Bolster is definately Not broken, my gear and stats bolster just fine at LVL 30 and I get 2018 expertise

I've also been out DPSing most of my teams... Sure some were bad... But most teams I've been on have been with 50-59s... I have been averaging 600k dps... Highest was 800k... I also absorb a lot of damage... 300-400k...

I've been in all the different maps and have only had an issue in some arenas due to being on poor teams against above average players...

Of course a LVL 30 shouldn't try to solo a LVL 55-59... The same as they shouldn't have tried a LVL 54 in the old bracket... Playing a lower LVL in mids requires you to use some strategy and tactics and not just go charging into the meat grinder... I think most QQing about mids has to do with people not Learning to play properly in the bottom pvp bracket and then not comprehending that stupid mentalities in mids against more experienced players will get you killed

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I play mid bracket all the time with my 30-40's toons and i really don't see the huge issue. I can take out a 55+, so its not impoosible. They are harder to take out for sure, but not impossible to do so. 30-40's can compete, i think you just are seeing a huge player ability gap between the 55+ and 30-40's because alot of the 55+ have been playing their characters longer and better than your guy at 30-40's. So i wouldn't say its a problem with the system, but just a problem of players being better than others being largely blamed on the system because its easier to do that than wound your pride.
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First off, many variables are at play when you compare personal experiences in the mids warzones. I think the two most prominent factors involved are:

 

1. What class you play. This is a big part of how things go in mids. If you are a class with escapes, dots, and or ranged attacks you will be able to contribute more in mids, even at 30-40. Another large component is when the classes abilities peak. A class that gets stronger abilities early on will perform better in mids.

 

A sorc or other ranged class can avoid more focus by doing ranged damage and avoiding death. A class with stealth or great ability to kite away (sorc) also can manage to do their damage and still stay alive longer than classes without escapes and/or mobility.

 

2. Your team composition and the enemies composition. Obviously this plays a big part. If your team comprises of mostly lowbies and the other team mostly highbies your team has a much higher chance of losing.

 

 

My personal experience in mids was on my healing merc. 30-44 was pretty harsh. By 45 I started to find a way to do decently. Higher survivability and better class abilities. That's 14 levels of total frustration though. Many new players would not wade through 14 lvls of pure torture imo. I aint saying my merc healer should have been dominating but the way he got melted was in no way being competitive. It was very frustrating.

 

My personal experience in mids on my lightning sorc. 30-39 was tolerable, I even did top dps some matches. Sure, I died fast when I got hit, but I could avoid most damage fairly well and still put my dps out. By lvl 40, the class was strong. I could hurt higher lvls pretty effectively. I only had issues when I got focused I would get obliterated pretty fast. Basically no survivability. But, my overall damage was just fine.

 

Seeing the difference in the gaming experience between these two classes made me understand classes play a big part in how well you do in mids. Some classes peak with abilities earlier, like the dps sorc. The sorc gets many very good damage abilities early on, so they are not as gimped at 30. The healing merc began peaking at 45.

 

If a class is a slow peaking class with lesser abilities and then is put in warzones with classes that peak earlier and also have this significant stat increase granted by bolster and by incremental stat boosts just from being higher lvl, all of this adds up to some players not having much of a chance to compete in a fun manner in mids pvp.

 

I am an experienced pvper on this game, and if I found healing merc as frustrating as I did from 30-44, I know for a fact a newer player would find it even worse. That would possibly turn them away from pvp, or maybe even the game.

 

If you state your experience from one class, a class that peaks fast and has these advantages I mentioned before, and you are an experienced pvper, honestly that's not being objective.

 

I would say that adds up to about as much worth as the posts made by people who do one match a day in mids, had a good match and claim all is well in mids based on their very limited experience.

 

This horse has been beaten into a glob of pudding though. It's not changing and that's apparent. I just felt like responding because I see a person that created the post, and actually value their input etc. Doesn't mean I am going to agree with everything they say though. :D

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Sorry Icykill but you are wrong. My baby Jugg now 54 have 3350 main stat and 32k HP. He had 2100 and 29k until 51. 30-40 he had 2000 and 27k. There is definately something wrong.

 

350 mainstat is rougly 70 more bonus damage, so rougly 200 more damage on most abilities and 400 damage on Raging Burst without even counting CasP, Shock or Dom. Just RB coefficient.

 

Then at lower level we also have less sec and tert stats 'cause we can't get the correct stat repartition on our mods. Thus reducing our output even more.

 

We also have 5-10k less HP thus reducing the damage needed to kill us.

 

Then you can begin to think about the skills and utilities we could be missing.

 

It isn't hugely broken anymore. Fixing BolShip really helped fix midbies. But it is still not completely fine.

 

I too can get to the top of the scoreboard since I got Dominate on my Jugg. And I rarely ever have a bad match where I get my *** wiped since I got Shockwave. But there is still a disparity tht can screw some classes. Sin, Jugg, Sorc are less likely to see it due to their DCD and kiting tools. Merc, Sniper and Mara will see it clearly. Oper and PT will likely see it until they get their whole burst.

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Sorry Icykill but you are wrong. My baby Jugg now 54 have 3350 main stat and 32k HP. He had 2100 and 29k until 51. 30-40 he had 2000 and 27k. There is definately something wrong.

 

350 mainstat is rougly 70 more bonus damage, so rougly 200 more damage on most abilities and 400 damage on Raging Burst without even counting CasP, Shock or Dom. Just RB coefficient.

 

Then at lower level we also have less sec and tert stats 'cause we can't get the correct stat repartition on our mods. Thus reducing our output even more.

 

We also have 5-10k less HP thus reducing the damage needed to kill us.

 

Then you can begin to think about the skills and utilities we could be missing.

 

It isn't hugely broken anymore. Fixing BolShip really helped fix midbies. But it is still not completely fine.

 

I too can get to the top of the scoreboard since I got Dominate on my Jugg. And I rarely ever have a bad match where I get my *** wiped since I got Shockwave. But there is still a disparity tht can screw some classes. Sin, Jugg, Sorc are less likely to see it due to their DCD and kiting tools. Merc, Sniper and Mara will see it clearly. Oper and PT will likely see it until they get their whole burst.

 

^Exactly this. As I also said.

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A level 46

A level 57

 

Both are in 100% identical gear, and yet the level 57 gets significantly higher stats on top of already having way more skills and utilities.

 

The status do not look "significantly" higher. The only stat does does look significantly higher is hp.

 

Anyway, I don't think he said that it was perfect or equal, he said that it really was not different from the 30-54 days. The 54s had better abilities and stats and they dominated the 30s. It is nothing new. Also why do you only have 1500 expertise? You should have 2018. or at least 1900+.

Edited by sithBracer
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The status do not look "significantly" higher. The only stat does does look significantly higher is hp.

 

Anyway, I don't think he said that it was perfect or equal, he said that it really was not different from the 30-54 days. The 54s had better abilities and stats and they dominated the 30s. It is nothing new. Also why do you only have 1500 expertise? You should have 2018. or at least 1900+.

 

He made the test wearing exactly nothing but basic relics, empty shell and no earpices/implants. The point is he registers about 250 main stat variation with level being the only variable. THis variation gets even higher when you factor in gear.. And 250 main stat is rougly 150-330 damage on about everything pre multipliers.

Edited by Ryuku-sama
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The status do not look "significantly" higher. The only stat does does look significantly higher is hp.

 

200 mainstat is significant. Also note that was done with bare bones gear. No enhancements, no mods, no implants and ear. Having real gear on will on magnify the discrepancies.

 

On my merc I can easily get ahold of 162 PvE gear and push 40k HP, while my 41 commando in optimized blues for his level barely pushes 32.5k HP and that's not even going into the damage output gulf. My merc at level 57 was putting up 13k biggest hits and this was in the free PvE gear you get free from forged alliances. My 41 commando's biggest hit to date is 9k.

 

And that's not even counting the difference in skills available. A 55+ doesn't just have a mere advantage, a 55+ in any gear will completely and utterly annihilate lowbies, and 55+ with basic competency is a god as far as the 30s are concerned.

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The status do not look "significantly" higher. The only stat does does look significantly higher is hp.

 

Anyway, I don't think he said that it was perfect or equal, he said that it really was not different from the 30-54 days. The 54s had better abilities and stats and they dominated the 30s. It is nothing new. Also why do you only have 1500 expertise? You should have 2018. or at least 1900+.

 

And, from my experience this is not the case. As someone that did literally thousands of matches in mids on probably over 30 alts along with leveling 3 toons to cap level from 10 to 55 and then 60, my experience is that for a brand new lvl 30, 30-54 was a bit more even than the present 30-59 tier.

 

Again though. Dead Horse Rising. Just let this beast rest in peace, please?

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All based on stuff that new players cant get.

 

Nope false. You can easily get optimized gear without needing the old sets. Just by stacking basic comms I can get myself working relics and a setbonus at level 50, and at level 55 can optimize mods and enhancements to put my HP over 40k.

 

In fact I would argue that there are several easily attainable 50 and 55 PvE gear combinations that are more effective than the old PvP sets, and the fact that you can start putting in mk-10 augments at 56 just makes it lulzy.

Edited by Zoom_VI
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200 mainstat is significant. Also note that was done with bare bones gear. No enhancements, no mods, no implants and ear. Having real gear on will on magnify the discrepancies.

 

On my merc I can easily get ahold of 162 PvE gear and push 40k HP, while my 41 commando in optimized blues for his level barely pushes 32.5k HP and that's not even going into the damage output gulf. My merc at level 57 was putting up 13k biggest hits and this was in the free PvE gear you get free from forged alliances. My 41 commando's biggest hit to date is 9k.

 

And that's not even counting the difference in skills available. A 55+ doesn't just have a mere advantage, a 55+ in any gear will completely and utterly annihilate lowbies, and 55+ with basic competency is a god as far as the 30s are concerned.

 

You can push these numbers, even prove them with pics, but many players are on OP'd classes and judging the experience they have in mids, not considering all the other ones who are at severe disadvantages due to class impediments.

 

A class with severe limitations due to their class abilities not reaching peak till much later really suffer. Add in them fighting higher lvls that get significant stat bonuses to their health and damage, the problem is magnified.

 

This really makes some classes virtually unplayable in the 30-59s, until they get to 45+. Yeah they can play, but they will get wrecked. That has nothing to do with L2P issues.

 

Some players want to pvp from 30-45 on these weaker classes but cannot... Other players will say "Who cares? It's only 10-20 lvls you can't pvp in!" The importance of this depends on how the player plays.

 

It's good to see some players who have good reputations and a good forum presence articulate this problem (like Crinn), because it adds credibility to the problem. Glad he uses his voice and backs up his opinion with actual screenshots too.

 

This seems like the never ending debate about mids. So many polarizing opinions on it, and because of that, it is not going to get addressed. Verbally, or with any updates. So... If you don't like it, too bad. If you think it's fine, great. It's not going to change so you can continue to enjoy mids as they are.

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Nope false. You can easily get optimized gear without needing the old sets. Just by stacking basic comms I can get myself working relics and a setbonus at level 50, and at level 55 can optimize mods and enhancements to put my HP over 40k.

 

In fact I would argue that there are several easily attainable 50 and 55 PvE gear combinations that are more effective than the old PvP sets, and the fact that you can start putting in mk-10 augments at 56 just makes it lulzy.

 

You do know that as you level you gain more statting on your char alone right? You also gain buffs from the tree.

 

I hate to be a dick but this is like the 4th thread ive come across you but you miss so much simple information it leads me to believe you arent very bright. You may be but pointing out that in the same gear a lvl 57 has more statting that a 46.

If a 46 had the same stats as the 57 what would ever be the point of leveling. Ever notice when you are leveling and you havent updated your gear but you hit harder and have higher HP. Kinda the point. If your base stats are raised as you level like it should be there will be a minor disparity to bolster.

Edited by headshot_hendo
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Here is the thing bolster works for gear. The base stats are not adjusted, this causes a minor issue but realistically 2-300 mainstat isn't that huge. Does it make a difference? Yes but not on a massive scale. Low end midbies will have less abilities which will lead to reduced survivability and output.

 

Players are also usually learning that class or the game so it makes it more difficult.

 

Realistically another tier would relieve some of this but in the end it is only lowbies. Take your licks, push through and then beat on lowbies yourself.

 

Lowbies are a transitional phase that you move out of unless you dont have the x pac in which case keep your mouth shut. You didnt spend the money, you dont get a say.

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You do know that as you level you gain more statting on your char alone right? You also gain buffs from the tree.

 

I hate to be a dick but this is like the 4th thread ive come across you but you miss so much simple information it leads me to believe you arent very bright. You may be but pointing out that in the same gear a lvl 57 has more statting that a 46.

If a 46 had the same stats as the 57 what would ever be the point of leveling. Ever notice when you are leveling and you havent updated your gear but you hit harder and have higher HP. Kinda the point. If your base stats are raised as you level like it should be there will be a minor disparity to bolster.

 

Oh shiz, shots fired!

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You do know that as you level you gain more statting on your char alone right? You also gain buffs from the tree.

Thank you for pointing out something that brand new level 2 F2P's know.

 

I hate to be a dick but this is like the 4th thread ive come across you but you miss so much simple information it leads me to believe you arent very bright. You may be but pointing out that in the same gear a lvl 57 has more statting that a 46.

If a 46 had the same stats as the 57 what would ever be the point of leveling. Ever notice when you are leveling and you havent updated your gear but you hit harder and have higher HP. Kinda the point. If your base stats are raised as you level like it should be there will be a minor disparity to bolster.

 

Not very bright? That pretty rich considering the comment you just made.

 

You do not make good, fun, or competitive PvP by giving one person a advantage in every single category over his opponent. That's utterly inspid and is the single fastest way to drive people away.

 

As long as 55+ are in the same bracket as 30s then they should not under any circumstances be given stat advantages, particularly since they are already getting a large advantage by simply having more utilities and discipline talents.

 

Low levels should be given much higher base stats to compensate for their lack of talents and skills.

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Thank you for pointing out something that brand new level 2 F2P's know.

 

 

 

Not very bright? That pretty rich considering the comment you just made.

 

You do not make good, fun, or competitive PvP by giving one person a advantage in every single category over his opponent. That's utterly inspid and is the single fastest way to drive people away.

 

As long as 55+ are in the same bracket as 30s then they should not under any circumstances be given stat advantages, particularly since they are already getting a large advantage by simply having more utilities and discipline talents.

 

Low levels should be given much higher base stats to compensate for their lack of talents and skills.

I'm not saying they shouldn't but BW doesn't. The point is OFC there is a disparity between levels with the same gear. As I said there should be a separate bracket, but at the end of the day it is transitional phase of PVP. So it wont be a massive issue on BW's radar.

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What requirements do they have? Rep?

 

Yeah you need newcomer and be at least level 25, its pretty easy to get though, I got the rep on the second day of the first event. There is a Thorn vendor in the GSI shop on Nar Shadaa that sells them when the event isn't around.

 

I did some bolster testing awhile back and the rakghoul relics are best in slot behind matrix cubes sub 50 since at 50 you can get dread guard relics (which work in PvP) at which point the BiS is a Dread Guard Relic + level 50 Matrix cube.

Edited by Zoom_VI
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