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Hatred is new smash so make its dotspread pve only?


Qwurdilu

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I know this isn't a common opinion but if they removed dot spread, without any other adjustments, then Hatred Sin would be even better in Group Ranked. It would tone them down in Solo Ranked for Regs though.. I'm just not sure that alone is sufficient.

 

I don't even want to imagine the pressure from a Hatred Sin that could spec Instant WW without regrets. Especially problematic in Tank Tunnel type strategies.

Edited by Xeraz
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skilled players already do this and only spread to the players they dont wanna CC :rolleyes:

 

Good healers get dotted? That might work, like once, but after you discover they have instant WW the jig is up.

Edited by Xeraz
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Yes but in order to do this you need to give up on damage by not using DF, at least when healer is smart enough to pack on his team while removing dotspread = derping recklessly, with lockdown abilities. Then add jugg tank:p
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dot spread in of itself isn't really op like smash it just makes it easier to fluff dmg... madness sin was already really strong before it had a dot spread mechanic..

 

Though i do think inquisitors/consulars have the best dot spread with fib/death field, the other classes dot spread abilitys are a lot more unwieldy to utilize in pvp (and have crap dmg in the case of sentinel/maras dot spec.... for example)

Edited by AngusFTW
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My point is.. on a single target hatred already has great sustain and burst. The dot spread just add extra fluff (granted it makes target switching for the sin easier), they won't kill anyone unless the sin actually switches onto that target, that is fluff dmg..

A ss showing 4.3k dps against 5 healers doesnt help your arguement.. :D

The main thing hatred has is the dot spread ability itself is stronger then other dot specs (veng is close but there dots r meh)

 

And there is a reason why in team ranked.. hatred teams have to cc the healer... if they didnt they'd go to acid :p

Edited by AngusFTW
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they won't kill anyone unless the sin actually switches onto that target, that is fluff dmg..

 

I`ve seen numerous times that tank dies bc of "flufffmg" while healer and DD is beeing pressured by hatred.

Hatred in arena is the same way overpowered as smash was, over time you pull more dmg than a healer can deal with. It doesnt really matter if its an instant burst or a dot because over time you`ll die.

 

I`d also like to point out that hatred is even more OP than smash was because its dmg. potential is way higher (thats whats the SS is for)

 

 

Edit:

My point is.. on a single target hatred already has great sustain and burst.

I think everyone agrees on this, so why dont we remove dotspread from deathfield? Seems like a no brainer for me, class will still be strong as ****

Edited by Qwurdilu
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Ye but that already happened before the dotspread no?

Like someone in another thread said.. they'd still jus spam dots on everyone infact it'd just mean the healer won't get dotted accidently as much anymore so he can eat more soft cc.. ;p

 

I agree the spec is ridiculous but i just don't think its as down to dot spread as everyone likes to say.

Edited by AngusFTW
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Ye but that already happened before the dotspread no?

This was bc of overpowered singletarget dmg. which has been toned down to a reasonable lvl.

 

healer won't get dotted accidently

Good players dont dot accidently. With free placeable deathfield you can decide in pretty much every situation if you want to dotspread or not. Your argument that dotspread can be harmful sometimes only applies to players dumb enough to place deathfield correctly.

 

However bads will run double hatred, dotspread everything and still be efficient as hell. Remembers pretty much of smash i think.

 

 

I agree the spec is ridiculous but i just don't think its as down to dot spread as everyone likes to say.

My point is.. on a single target hatred already has great sustain and burst.

 

With singletarget dmg beeing more than fine, why not simply remove dotspread from pvp? I dont claim theres no need to change anything else, but for sure this class would be much more balanced without dotspread.

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This was bc of overpowered singletarget dmg. which has been toned down to a reasonable lvl.

 

 

Good players dont dot accidently. With free placeable deathfield you can decide in pretty much every situation if you want to dotspread or not. Your argument that dotspread can be harmful sometimes only applies to players dumb enough to place deathfield correctly.

 

However bads will run double hatred, dotspread everything and still be efficient as hell. Remembers pretty much of smash i think.

 

 

 

 

 

With singletarget dmg beeing more than fine, why not simply remove dotspread from pvp? I dont claim theres no need to change anything else, but for sure this class would be much more balanced without dotspread.

 

Because by doing so you'd be ignorant to think it would fix the problem. See them healers running around? There are bad healers doing 3k+ HPS in arenas now - they have great AoE and as such there is a need for AoE damage.

 

Furthermore the single target DPS might not be the issue but the burstiness of it most certainly is. Its F pathetic that a suistained AoE melee pressure spec can get crits on 2 abilities for 10K+ both with relatively low CDs.

 

Sorcs lost their surge with 3.0 because bioware did the right thing, they realised they were a pressure sustained class (read warlockish), how they let sins keep their surge talents and their assassinate proc is beyond me. That is probably their worst design decision since the game launched, and that says A LOT.

Edited by AdamLKvist
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Its not by any means the dotspread that has to go. Its the assassinate proc, minimum.

 

i disagree, hatreds single target dmg is in a good place compared to other melees. (vengeance e.g.)

imho its the powerfull AOE that causes problems, especially (like with all AOEs) when stacked.

Also the 16m dotspread (2*8m) renders 15m guardrange ad absurdum since you cant dodge dotspread without getting out of guardrange.

 

assa utilitis are another problem and topic, please focus on dotspread here

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i disagree, hatreds single target dmg is in a good place compared to other melees. (vengeance e.g.)

imho its the powerfull AOE that causes problems, especially (like with all AOEs) when stacked.

Also the 16m dotspread (2*8m) renders 15m guardrange ad absurdum since you cant dodge dotspread without getting out of guardrange.

 

assa utilitis are another problem and topic, please focus on dotspread here

 

Again, read above. The single target might be fine but that the damage come in burst windows is not. Not by a long shot. A sustained spec should NOT come close to the burst of a burst spec and thats whats happening right now if you compare it to deception. You like the spec, I get it. You should not get to keep this op **** thou.

 

The dotspread shouldnt be on deathfield for sins, it should be on lacerates with a 15sec ICD, since we're talking about dotspread. Hey, its (supposed) to be a melee class after all. While they're at it, nerf demolish and crush range to 10m.

Edited by AdamLKvist
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You like the spec, I get it. You wont get to keep this op **** thou.

 

Dude, i made this thread about nerfing the class so....

 

I dont disagree that deception should have the higher burst than hatred, however i dont see hatreds biggest problem the single target burst.

 

Its the combination of dotspread, godlike utility and its very good singletarget burst which makes this class so op

 

However you cant take all 3 of them away since the class will be useless again. However one can argue which one of the above the class should keep.

 

imho dotspread needs to be removed from pvp and utility adjusted, and then hatred may keep its single target dmg since imho vengeance has comparable burst and is also a sustained specc.

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Dude, i made this thread about nerfing the class so....

 

I dont disagree that deception should have the higher burst than hatred, however i dont see hatreds biggest problem the single target burst.

 

Its the combination of dotspread, godlike utility and its very good singletarget burst which makes this class so op

 

However you cant take all 3 of them away since the class will be useless again. However one can argue which one of the above the class should keep.

 

imho dotspread needs to be removed from pvp and utility adjusted, and then hatred may keep its single target dmg since imho vengeance has comparable burst and is also a sustained specc.

 

Of course it is the combination but you cant compare one class to the other like you're doing. Its naive. To begin with they need to fill different roles because otherwise why have classes at all? Furthermore the dotspread is strong but thats the point - the point however is not that they should have enormous single target kill potential. This spec has clearly been designed about pressure and if you dont like that you'll have to find something else to like - but it should be no secret to no one that they dont deserve the amount of burst they presently possess.

 

Fix the burst and the AoE pressure as per their obvious design intention will be working as intended, and working well.

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My dot spread doesnt seem to work. I dot someone with lightning charge and creeping terror. Then Deathfield on that person and other undotted persons and the other enemies are not dotted...? Even in pve

 

Not sure what the deal is or what im doing wrong. Works maybe 50% of the time.

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My dot spread doesnt seem to work. I dot someone with lightning charge and creeping terror. Then Deathfield on that person and other undotted persons and the other enemies are not dotted...? Even in pve

 

Not sure what the deal is or what im doing wrong. Works maybe 50% of the time.

 

If deathfield kills the host, dots don't spread.

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Furthermore the dotspread is strong but thats the point - the point however is not that they should have enormous single target kill potential.

 

Thats also not a fact, its just an oppinion.

imho all assasins should have single target kill potential and imho there are still enough distinction to other classes

 

Of course its a legit opinion to say make hatred AOE pressure and nerf single target, however with its dotspread beeing so strong i feel that its single target has to be nerfed so drastically it`ll going to be useless after all. (like madness)

Look into sorc forums, people there would love to trade dotspread for more singletarget dmg.

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Thats also not a fact, its just an oppinion.

imho all assasins should have single target kill potential and imho there are still enough distinction to other classes

 

Of course its a legit opinion to say make hatred AOE pressure and nerf single target, however with its dotspread beeing so strong i feel that its single target has to be nerfed so drastically it`ll going to be useless after all. (like madness)

Look into sorc forums, people there would love to trade dotspread for more singletarget dmg.

 

While you may make that argument it would be a faulty one. Its not opinion. Bioware gave the sustained classes dotspread. They didnt let the bursty dots spread only the weaker ones. So they wanted to achieve some sort of AoE pressure/sustained performance.

 

When you can explain why they gave all dot classes dot spread other than this, you can have a go at "opinion" once more.

 

The single target damage should not go down. But their ability to deal it in bursts should be COMPLETELY UTTERLY ERADICATED because the spec is not a burst spec. Useless at what? Killing things solo? Well I would F hope so - its an AoE pressure spec. Obviously you would say you want all specs to have killing power but thats not how it works, well it is. But you need to look at it from the point of view of how to acheive that kill. At present whats wrong with hatred/serenity is that they can get burst kills WHILE they derp AoE pressure the entire opposite team.

 

The class should be made a true melee so nerf demolish and crush to 10M range, possibly move dotspread to lacerate with a 12-15 ICD and remove the assassinate proc.

 

Dotspread has been universally applied with 3.0 and as such it is not going anywhere. And it shouldnt mind you, healers are way too powerful with AoE healing to be allowed to reign free.

 

Before 3.0 madness sorcs had the best of both worlds, they had burst and they had great sustaiend (PvP), they were not filling the role of a ranged dotspec which for balance sake should be sustained (as Bioware finally has realised)

Edited by AdamLKvist
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So they wanted to achieve some sort of AoE pressure/sustained performance.

 

Dotspread was introduced because its needed for new pve content, and has nothing to do with pvp balance. Theres lots of adds and in order to keep dotspeccs viable they introduced dotspread. You need to realize most of this game is balanced around pve and they only adjust pvp when something performs way too good/bad. And still then it takes them ages since they allways keep in mind that they have to change it in a way it doesnt affect pve much.

Easiest fix imho would be to remove dotspread from pvp entirely, its not needed in any way. Double hatred can still cleave a ton of dmg withoutdotspread, you can quote me on that.

 

healers are way too powerful with AoE healing to be allowed to reign free.

Other classes dont have such a powerful AOE as assasin and still perform fine arenawise.

 

The single target damage should not go down.

 

If it doesnt goes down and they keep dotspread they will still wreck group ranked.

The burst is annoying but not the problem in group ranked since a tank can take a way lot of it. What he cant mitigate is the enormous aoe pressure and thus you`ll just die after some time due aoe cleave.

You`ll find a lot of assasins pulling 2,5k dps but i`ve yet to see a healer doing 5k hps.

 

 

Competent tanks can easily negate hatreds burst however you wont make it to acid against competent double hatred. Dmg is just to much. If they keep dotspread single target has to go down, thats something obvious.

 

btw: madness never had burst, you were never able to play hardswitch with madness. Its singlesustained was good though

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being realistic i dont see bw taking the spread mechanic away anytime soon or making different mechanics for pvp/pve and i dont think they will change the single target output

 

some realistic improvments for pvp could be

-nerfing the radius of deathfield/force in balance to 5-6m

-spread only one dot instead of two

-reduce the range of some skills to 10-15m

-reduce the self healing by a bit

(ofcourse not all of them together)

 

small changes on a regular basis are better for the game in general

Edited by Luckyluzi
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Dotspread was introduced because its needed for new pve content, and has nothing to do with pvp balance. Theres lots of adds and in order to keep dotspeccs viable they introduced dotspread. You need to realize most of this game is balanced around pve and they only adjust pvp when something performs way too good/bad. And still then it takes them ages since they allways keep in mind that they have to change it in a way it doesnt affect pve much.

Easiest fix imho would be to remove dotspread from pvp entirely, its not needed in any way. Double hatred can still cleave a ton of dmg withoutdotspread, you can quote me on that.

 

 

Other classes dont have such a powerful AOE as assasin and still perform fine arenawise.

 

 

 

If it doesnt goes down and they keep dotspread they will still wreck group ranked.

The burst is annoying but not the problem in group ranked since a tank can take a way lot of it. What he cant mitigate is the enormous aoe pressure and thus you`ll just die after some time due aoe cleave.

You`ll find a lot of assasins pulling 2,5k dps but i`ve yet to see a healer doing 5k hps.

 

 

Competent tanks can easily negate hatreds burst however you wont make it to acid against competent double hatred. Dmg is just to much. If they keep dotspread single target has to go down, thats something obvious.

 

btw: madness never had burst, you were never able to play hardswitch with madness. Its singlesustained was good though

 

The adding of dotspread for PvE or PvP can not be proven, so thats pointless to take that far. Its added. Its not going away. They have ALMOST never made abilities work differently for PvE and PvP and thats a good thing. It will most certainly not happen here and you must see that...

 

2.5K dps would NOT happen if they didnt have burst windows, at the moment they deal all their actual damage and then they get kited but really that wont help much becauise they already unleashed their hard hitters. Remove burst windows = lower DPS dealt in PvP, simple as. One cant argue that undeniable point. Because in a priority list you use the heavy hitter abilities first - so no, there would be no 2.5K dps after a change of single target damage. Maybe vs fools that stack together and let you deeps race.

 

Competent tanks can negate burst? Okay? Taunted damage always disappears no matter burst or not, taunts are on longer CDs than burst abilities, so no. Obviously more damage disappears per taunt vs burst but burst hitters will be off CD before taunt is and also you make it seem like the tank has a choice whether or not to be CCd vs a competent team (lets not assume you play vs noobs, thatd be ridicolous)

 

Sorcs had surge on plenty of abiltiies, they hit 7-9K full power surge with deathfield... They could target switch, obviously not as effectively as other classes but unguarded targets took 5.5K from a lightning strike etc. But yes, mostly used for derping. Doesnt matter, their surge should not have been a part of their build and its so obvious when you look at it from a design standpoint.

 

Why are you trying to move backwards just because the game has been broken? The game IS broken and we need to fix the issue. The dotspread is not the F issue, it needs to stay (Ps. It will stay.) Move it to lacerate and make this *********** class a real melee class - the only reason people havent complained about their range on their abilities before is that theyv been useless. Sadness spec running around numberpadding has been the reality up 2.X.. Time to adjust accordingly

 

Edit: No other sustained spec perform well arenavise. And thats mainly because their dotspread is F clunky and put on the wrong abilities, bioware being annoying to be annoying I guess.

Edited by AdamLKvist
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