Khevar Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) If I had such disdain, then why do I have a bunch of max crafters in every game I've played, and barely touched the slot machines my guild has? No I don't mean to sound like crafting is nothing, but the slot machine is no different fundamentally once you get your crafting skills maxed. You are sitting there clicking a UI. I get what you're saying here. I still feel that crafting is different because there is more thinking that goes into it. Which mats am I low on? What should I focus on today? Etc. As an example, there was a couple of weeks when Farium was running at ~250cr, but Molytex was running at ~1000cr. So for that week I ran compounds missions, and purchased the metals. The following week someone bought up all the Farium and it was back up to 800cr, so I ran metals again. Or the week that I ran gift missions across my crafting toons, as I had a number of companions that weren't yet at full affection. It is these types of things that elevate the activity of gathering / crafting beyond the slot machine, even after you've maxxed out the crew skills. It's not an ops, it's not pvp, it's not doing dailies. I've been sitting here writing in this forum, crafting all week while writing. I can't do the slot machine while doing that. Absolutely. On the flip side, I can run the slot machine continuously while watching TV. It's a trade-off. Sorry my disdain is from forum goers who refuse to accept that the slot machine is just as much an ingame activity as crew missions. Now I'm going to do some real in game activities and do some raiding with my guild. I can completely understand this. For me, my disdain (and this is not directed at you) is for people that complain about "evil capitalist pig crafters gouging everyone", instead of realizing they could become self sufficient and tell the gougers to **** off. Maybe tomorrow we can continue this discussion, you seem to be one of the few reasonable people on this forum. Cheers! Edited January 24, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Coragin Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Hey thread! Where do you think youre going? The DEV's MUST hear what you have to say! Get back up there to the top! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 BioWare announced they are not planning to change the Slot machine from its current useless-deco state. So there's no need to bump this again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 For me, my disdain (and this is not directed at you) is for people that complain about "evil capitalist pig crafters gouging everyone", instead of realizing they could become self sufficient and tell the gougers to **** off. Cheers! But the real issue is new players often don't have the option to tell the GTN whales to eff off. If they are f2p or preferred they are restricted to 1 or 2 crew skills. If they are f2p or preferred they don't get awarded the artifact grade mats. Even if they are subs, alot of them don't have the credits when hitting max level on their first toon to be able to afford more than a piece or two of crafted gear right now. They don't have options. We might, but we are established. I can spend all my credits to oblivion, and still not worry about credits because: 1) I have the gear that would let me go earn more quickly, 2) I have so much junk in my bays, I could vendor half of it and come away with 500k. Mats aren't an issue for people like us, they are however for f2p or newcomers. No one in this forum will ever argue for those people, so maybe it's time I do. I see the effect every day in my guild. I see players who for whatever reason absolutely LOVE this game, but can't pay for a sub. I see how the restrictions impact their gameplay, their fun, and if they weren't in a guild like mine which supports them by having subs buy passes, unlocks, and whatnot for them, I think a good many would get frustrated at the paywall looming in front of them at max level and leave. The slot machine just showed there is a way to help these people overcome that paywall, get invested in the game. Because once people get invested they are more willing to start or keep spending money. The slot machine just highlighted the problem of crafting in this game: it's a market controlled by few at the expense of many, with little option to make inroads against those entrenched. You can achieve self-sufficiency as a sub, you can't as f2p or someone with a single character. There needs to be a means to provide those people with self-sufficiency if they so choose to go that route. But right now, they have no choice but the GTN, and the GTN traders know it and are gouging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 BioWare announced they are not planning to change the Slot machine from its current useless-deco state. So there's no need to bump this again. No, this needs a bump til they lock it or it tops out. The issues raised in this thread are very valid, even without the slot machine being unnerfed. We need to prod them to make crafting more friendly for those with access to only 1 or 2 crew skills, because right now they dont have options except to eat the crap pie the GTN traders are selling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) But the real issue is new players often don't have the option to tell the GTN whales to eff off. If they are f2p or preferred they are restricted to 1 or 2 crew skills. If they are f2p or preferred they don't get awarded the artifact grade mats. Even if they are subs, alot of them don't have the credits when hitting max level on their first toon to be able to afford more than a piece or two of crafted gear right now. They don't have options. We might, but we are established. I can spend all my credits to oblivion, and still not worry about credits because: 1) I have the gear that would let me go earn more quickly, 2) I have so much junk in my bays, I could vendor half of it and come away with 500k. Mats aren't an issue for people like us, they are however for f2p or newcomers. No one in this forum will ever argue for those people, so maybe it's time I do. I see the effect every day in my guild. I see players who for whatever reason absolutely LOVE this game, but can't pay for a sub. I see how the restrictions impact their gameplay, their fun, and if they weren't in a guild like mine which supports them by having subs buy passes, unlocks, and whatnot for them, I think a good many would get frustrated at the paywall looming in front of them at max level and leave. The slot machine just showed there is a way to help these people overcome that paywall, get invested in the game. Because once people get invested they are more willing to start or keep spending money. The slot machine just highlighted the problem of crafting in this game: it's a market controlled by few at the expense of many, with little option to make inroads against those entrenched. You can achieve self-sufficiency as a sub, you can't as f2p or someone with a single character. There needs to be a means to provide those people with self-sufficiency if they so choose to go that route. But right now, they have no choice but the GTN, and the GTN traders know it and are gouging. So they can not afford a few 100k to get started with crew missions, but they can afford a slot machine for 2mio + ? (or far worse for real $$$) Its getting old but EVERYONE can get everything he needs himself. Bringing slicing for example from 0 to 500 only with crew missions gives you enough credits to bring up another 2 professions of your choice, doing nothing else. It is just no instant gratification it may take time. Edited January 24, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 So they can not afford a few 100k to get started with crew missions, but they can afford a slot machine for 2mio + ? (or far worse for real $$$) Its getting old but EVERYONE can get everything he needs himself. Bringing slicing for example from 0 to 500 only with crew missions gives you enough credits to bring up another 2 professions of your choice, doing nothing else. It is just no instant gratification it may take time. They didn't need to buy one, lots of people set up casinos on guild ships and strongholds with open access. It's not instant gratification, even if you maxed out crew skills, if you slip to preferred status you have to axe one skill. Which one do you axe? A gathering skill? A crew skill? Honestly I'd pick the crafting skill to axe, because there's no economic incentive to craft and there's a heavy one to farm mats. That's a little skewed. The machine showed that by your very argument for nerfing it. It was "ruining the economy" of mats. It never touched the crafting end because crafters based their prices on the cost of mats. If anything, crafters benefited from the fall in mat prices as crafted goods prices lagged in response to mat prices, and in some cases like augment kits, price actually rose because people were willing to buy more because they could afford to get more augments. Everyone else, when presented with the arguments in this thread, can clealy admit the nerf was overboard. You, sir, have outed yourself, and showed the only people still supporting the nerf to the machine are NOT crafters but button clicking mat gathers. You are no different than the thing you despise, click button, wait one hour, instant gratification. It's no different than someone going to the store and buying a lottery ticket that hits for 100k. Sure they had to wait a couple days for the lottery drawing, but it's still technically instant gratification because they did nothing but "hit buttons" to get that 100k. You want to impress me, go earn mats, truly EARN them. Go do an ops or a dozen, go click need on that Exonium RARE mat every time it drops and try to get it. Pay that repair bill for all the wipes you go through to EARN that mat. That's earning mats. What do you to earn mats via crew missions is fundamentally no different than earning them via slot machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 No, this needs a bump til they lock it or it tops out. The issues raised in this thread are very valid, even without the slot machine being unnerfed. We need to prod them to make crafting more friendly for those with access to only 1 or 2 crew skills, because right now they dont have options except to eat the crap pie the GTN traders are selling them. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 But the real issue is new players often don't have the option to tell the GTN whales to eff off. If they are f2p or preferred they are restricted to 1 or 2 crew skills. If they are f2p or preferred they don't get awarded the artifact grade mats. Even if they are subs, alot of them don't have the credits when hitting max level on their first toon to be able to afford more than a piece or two of crafted gear right now. They don't have options. Can't F2P buy 186 gear with basic comms so long as they have the artifact unlock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Can't F2P buy 186 gear with basic comms so long as they have the artifact unlock? Yes, preferred with artifact unlock can spend comms, only rewards they are limited on is drops. But it's inferiour, by a large margin. If you have min/max 180 gear, it'll outperform 186 comm gear, heck min/maxed 168 might actually come close too. But even at that, you can't get relics, you can't get a main hand. That's a significant impact on your performance, and some raid leaders will not let people who are undergeared in those slots into raids if they won't be able to outright do it without that person there. The fact that people are willing to pay top tier raiding guilds for a gearing run through operations instead of buying the stuff on the GTN should tell you all you need to know about how out of whack the system is. 10 million for a gearing run in story mode is cheaper than buying 186 gear off the GTN, and it's 192 rating to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) But even at that, you can't get relics, you can't get a main hand. That's a significant impact on your performance, and some raid leaders will not let people who are undergeared in those slots into raids if they won't be able to outright do it without that person there.. I suppose it may depend on the server, but 186 main hands tend to be cheaper than the rest of the gear. Last night on BG, barrels were around 40k and hilts around 90k. That's not terribly overpriced and well within reach. And for relics, why not start with the blue ones? They're running around 50k as well. On the Serendipitous relic, it goes from +835 power for the purple to +810 power for the blue. I haven't had enough coffee to do the math (), but that's probably less than a 1% loss in effectiveness (30% chance, 20 second cd, yada yada). Edited January 24, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 So they can not afford a few 100k to get started with crew missions, but they can afford a slot machine for 2mio + ? (or far worse for real $$$) 1) They could have used a friend's machine without buying one. 2) They could have waited for the increased supply to drive prices down to something less farcical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I suppose it may depend on the server, but 186 main hands tend to be cheaper than the rest of the gear. Last night on BG, barrels were around 40k and hilts around 90k. That's not terribly overpriced and well within reach. And for relics, why not start with the blue ones? They're running around 50k as well. On the Serendipitous relic, it goes from +835 power for the purple to +810 power for the blue. I haven't had enough coffee to do the math (), but that's probably a sub 1% effectiveness loss. Unfortunately, not everyone uses logical analysis when they are assembling raid groups. They gear check, and if it's not minimum reqs, they kick. Heck I've heard of some that had good gear that wasn't augmented and they were left out. And yes, I invited those people to my guild and they are happily raiding with us. The best decision they ever made regarding endgame gear was during 1.0 when they released endgame pvp and pve sets as soon as you hit 50. Now you open up endgame to everyone, and whether they progress further in the gearing curve and how they progress is up to them. Do ops, buy it off the GTN for large margins, whatever. But working large margins on the entry tier is bad and only hurts the game. I mean BW came out and said they felt prices were too high and they wanted to increase availibility. Game developers usually don't try to influence the economy unless something is out of whack. That statement tells me BW feels that entry level gear is out of easy reach of a good chunk of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) I mean BW came out and said they felt prices were too high and they wanted to increase availibility. Game developers usually don't try to influence the economy unless something is out of whack. That statement tells me BW feels that entry level gear is out of easy reach of a good chunk of players. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case. The weird thing is the "kill the slot machines" nerf, followed by the "no posting" silence, followed by the "we're not going to touch it" rumor. Honestly, I expected the machines to be nerfed to 10% green / 5% blue / 3% purple. Or perhaps bump the price per coin to 2k. Or something like that. Edited January 24, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choloe Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Allow me to do a quick Readers Digest to the OP... "I do not buy Cartel Packs, I never pay more than my subscription for anything (if that). And people who did spend their real money on Cartel Coins to get the Hypercrates for a chance at this machine because they were told it was "working as intended but may require adjustments" should **** because I don't care if they spent their money, it was not MY money." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citruzz Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 TL,DR The whole idea of the first introduction of this machines was a absolute disaster. Replacing gathering, crew missions and even trading mats in the GTN. The CC-Traders got tricked as well, because they invested a lot of money to generate certificates / cartel reputation in the game and now, it is available for everyone and you just need a little amount of credits. This is an mmorgp, trading is a part of it, and there is no reason to skip that. A little increase in dropchance of any scrap or certificate from the actual point is unfair and game breaking. This machines should not be an alternative of gathering mats by myself. It is a deco with a funny function, thats all. I'm not a macro user, but even i got enough mats till the middle of the next expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Coragin Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Anyone that replies with... TL:DR Should not even post on this thread. Not at all. You have nothing to offer this specific discussion as the OP is much much much more than you might expect. And the information the OP has is not only well thought out and articulate, but the OP understands economies in such a way 95% of the community does not. The information and arguments he has are by far better than and more informative than any post on the topic, including those by Devs. So if you want to reply just to post TL:DR and then try to offer any kind of opinion, you make yourself look like a troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comestbest Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 TL,DR The whole idea of the first introduction of this machines was a absolute disaster. Replacing gathering, crew missions and even trading mats in the GTN. The CC-Traders got tricked as well, because they invested a lot of money to generate certificates / cartel reputation in the game and now, it is available for everyone and you just need a little amount of credits. This is an mmorgp, trading is a part of it, and there is no reason to skip that. A little increase in dropchance of any scrap or certificate from the actual point is unfair and game breaking. This machines should not be an alternative of gathering mats by myself. It is a deco with a funny function, thats all. I'm not a macro user, but even i got enough mats till the middle of the next expansion. exactly right it's pretty draining to try and read such ignorant ramblings of the op. takes forever to get to the point and it's not based in any proper knowledge of free market economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 exactly right it's pretty draining to try and read such ignorant ramblings of the op. takes forever to get to the point and it's not based in any proper knowledge of free market economics. I would love to read your informed opinion then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) But even at that, you can't get relics, you can't get a main hand. That's a significant impact on your performance, and some raid leaders will not let people who are undergeared in those slots into raids ... Then it's a good thing I somehow managed to put together a few nice 198 sets (though only 192 mainhand hilt/barrels) before going Preferred. Edited January 24, 2015 by BuriDogshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Coragin Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 exactly right it's pretty draining to try and read such ignorant ramblings of the op. takes forever to get to the point and it's not based in any proper knowledge of free market economics. Ignorant ramblings? It shows you did not even read what he had to say. I would be willing to bet the OP has more intelligence than you on any subject, much less the working of an economy. Just, stop talking, you just proved with this post your head holds less than a shot glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Ignorant ramblings? It shows you did not even read what he had to say. I would be willing to bet the OP has more intelligence than you on any subject, much less the working of an economy. Just, stop talking, you just proved with this post your head holds less than a shot glass. No kidding, the OP sounded just like my economy professors in college. Anyone that can't follow his ramblings obviously never had a class in economics, ever. Because those ramblings.. ARE what you are taught in economics class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradleyahoult Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Whether the machine was good economics or not is frankly irrelevant. This is a game not the real world where people will starve with a diving market. As a game it should be fun. The machine was a fun way for casual players to make some mats and BW destroyed it after people paid real money for it. The economics part of this is nonsense because frankly the people who would roll over and over on multiple machines for days on end are the sort who would play the GTN for hours on end making cash. In other words the slot machine was just their new way of being obsessed with the game. They'd soon get bored and go to another way of making huge sums of cash anyway and it would have settled down and casuals could have just used the machine to get some mats to do some fun crafting. The fact a new item was massively over used is obviously down to it being new. Like with anything the novelty would have worn off it the machine hadn't been decimated after a week and the market would have settled down to a suitable level anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Whether the machine was good economics or not is frankly irrelevant. This is a game not the real world where people will starve with a diving market. As a game it should be fun. The machine was a fun way for casual players to make some mats and BW destroyed it after people paid real money for it. The economics part of this is nonsense because frankly the people who would roll over and over on multiple machines for days on end are the sort who would play the GTN for hours on end making cash. In other words the slot machine was just their new way of being obsessed with the game. They'd soon get bored and go to another way of making huge sums of cash anyway and it would have settled down and casuals could have just used the machine to get some mats to do some fun crafting. The fact a new item was massively over used is obviously down to it being new. Like with anything the novelty would have worn off it the machine hadn't been decimated after a week and the market would have settled down to a suitable level anyway. Yup exactly...I feel the same way you do that this was a fun item and that material would have stabilised eventually given time, but that was taken away by a knee jerk reaction. And on top of that the loss of some good individuals that played the game. Game market be damned because , the mats should never had been a saleable commodity, after all these crafters have daily missions to run instead to make cash, just like the rest of the pve people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comestbest Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Whether the machine was good economics or not is frankly irrelevant. This is a game not the real world where people will starve with a diving market. As a game it should be fun. The machine was a fun way for casual players to make some mats and BW destroyed it after people paid real money for it. The economics part of this is nonsense because frankly the people who would roll over and over on multiple machines for days on end are the sort who would play the GTN for hours on end making cash. In other words the slot machine was just their new way of being obsessed with the game. They'd soon get bored and go to another way of making huge sums of cash anyway and it would have settled down and casuals could have just used the machine to get some mats to do some fun crafting. The fact a new item was massively over used is obviously down to it being new. Like with anything the novelty would have worn off it the machine hadn't been decimated after a week and the market would have settled down to a suitable level anyway. nope, people with macro programs were abusing it 24/7 on multiple accounts. i saw on other websites people brag about having vaults and vaults full of grade 11 mats from the slot machine. now imagine a crafter who ran crewskills and now that stupid machine made his mats worth a hell of a lot less and made it worthless to run missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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