TYBERzan Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 In light of the changes to the slot machine, I thought I would try explaining the economics behind its new incarnation. Currently, the drops can be found on both the Dulfy.com website and Swtor Reddit page. I don't want to post links as the pages are easy to find, and the moderators are quite anal about such things. In the current slot setup, the expected earnings are about 50% of input with a 1/100000 chance of a BOP mount. Because of this, these machines have no economic incentives to play and unlike their previous incarnation they are unlikely to influence the game in any way. I admit I am disappointed with this development as the Dev team were deceitful in their statements and it represents a missed opportunity to analyze the game, but then again I am letting my sub lapse anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taramayne Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) (snip) -TZ ..I'm of the opinion that you are vastly over-thinking this whole issue. Edited January 23, 2015 by Taramayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I am little surprised that this thread didn't get more traction. It seemed to take a considered view of the situation. You greatly overestimate the forum members' willingness to read such a wall of text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TYBERzan Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 ..I'm of the opinion that you are vastly over-thinking this whole issue. Rather, I think the developers underthought their decisions. It seems that their "fix" involved manipulating every possible variable rather than 1 or 2 (1 being optimal) the net result being huge changes which are never beneficial when you rely upon consumer confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Coragin Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I too would have thought this thread alone would have had enough information to show even non-believers that the slot machine was a good thing. What I do find amusing is everyone saying their whole reason was "Crew Missions". Which in reality we all know the entire reason wanting a nerf was for their own greedy pocketbook. And I can say this for certain. If it was not for them wanting to avoid change and keep their bankrolls fat, maybe someone can explain to me why all purple relics are up from 80k ish during the slot machine (Which is fair) to about 200-600k today (which is complete price gouging. And the whole "Its making crew skills worthless because its too easy" is a stupid argument. We should never have gotten robots on the auto production lines because it made things easier and cheaper and faster! And the auto workers that came before had to do it all and all by hand, so that is how it should be kept! ^^ Do you see how stupid that sounds? We should never innovate because we all spent a lot of time getting these skills up and using them like this for so long its just not fair if you make it easy. The outcry to nerf it was simply to protect the peoples profits. The prices of relics reflect this! And for any that accuse me of of either not wanting it all to change and accuse me of crying, that is not it. This was a good thing that brought the Tier 1 gear down to a manageable level and more importantly a respectable price. Now if all 186 gear had to be reverse engineered from ops drops I may think differently. But it was not and is not like these recipes were difficult to find OR expensive, hell you bought them from your damn tradeskill vendor! And here is my proof of just ONE of my toons being totally fine when it comes to money. Mind you this is ONE toon of 8 with maxed crafting skills and recipes. One Account, One Toons Mats. Keep in mind I have more than one account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Coragin Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Haha the usual suspects are not coming here to spread their usual mouth diarrhea. And I can see them thinking it, even if they wont say it.... This post makes way too much sense!! No way I am posting here and bumping it so the Devs read it! It makes too much common sense and completely destroys all of my complaint arguments. No way in hell I will post and bump this thread! Exactly why it has been buried up till now. None of the Chicken Littles wanted the devs to see an educated well thought out and informative arguments against their high profit and greed crys, Dont worry guys, I will be the man here and bump it for you. I know you would really want the devs to read this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 yeah devs please read this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 They might have read it but at the same time I am not convinced that all the necessary elements are included in the OP. Mainly human behaviour and the purpose of an MMO vs the economy therein. What I am saying is that it may very well be that there is more to it than is described here and therefore it may not actually work the way the OP proposes. From a theoretical point of view I can see where he's coming from as such but a lot of people do not play games as an exercise of running an efficient financial household. So his ideas are interesting but that's as far as I can go with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Coragin Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Well, its been a few hours and this thread got buried! Have no fear! For I am here to make sure that the devs get to read this! This post deserves to be front page! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Read!! DEVS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) 1. crew missions = better credit sink than the machine 2. the machine was on the other hand FASTER and CHEAPER credit wise in return of grade 11 mats. The speed actually was ridiculous. mat prices nearly hitted a point where theoretically every crew mission would result in a loss of credits after the sale of the mat. 3. Actual gameplay should always be > than 1 button click deco items Edited January 23, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 1. crew missions = better credit sink than the machine 2. the machine was on the other hand FASTER and CHEAPER credit wise in return of grade 11 mats. The speed actually was ridiculous. mat prices nearly hitted a point where theoretically every crew mission would result in a loss of credits after the sale of the mat. 3. Actual gameplay should always be > than 1 button click deco items 1. Show me evidence that crew missions are a better credit sink. I can generate credits doing dailies while crew missions run, resulting in a net gain of credits. I cannot do anything while playing the slots, and the slots sink 30% of the credits you spend outright. Meaning I will always finish a run of dailies with crew missions with a higher amount of credits than i started with, while I will always finish a run of the slot machine with less credits than I started with. The very speed of the machine worked in its favor as a credit sink, because you could sink an amazing amount of credits out of the economy through it directly, 30% of the credits spent at the best return estimate, per go-around. 2. Very easy fix, leave the machine where it was, increase the cost of tokens to the point where mats are more expensive but faster to obtain with the machine. They didn't need to change drop rates at all, a 1000 credit per token cost would have effectively made the drop rate on par with the cost for Doonium via UT missions. Going to 2000 would have made crew missions competitive cost-wise, but not time-wise, while the slots would be competitive time-wise but not cost-wise. The nerf to the drop rate completely removed that possibility. 3. So clicking 2-3 buttons on a menu does constitute actual gameplay, but click on a decoration is not.. That is interesting because did you know, most quest objects, lore objects, etc. are actually clickable decorations? Sure it's not a private stronghold, but it is in the big giant stronghold that Bioware owns called SWTOR. Your stronghold decorating UI is a dummied down version of the same UI that they use to design the game worlds and place object in them. The big difference is they aren't restricted by hooks, but the object oriented manipulation is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Show me evidence that crew missions are a better credit sink. Nobody here on the forum is going to be able to provide evidence. That's firmly in the purview of people that can query TOR databases. All we can do is offer theories. One theory as to how crew missions are a better credit sink has to to with the cost of obtaining mats. An average of 4k-5k per purple mat on crew missions, as compared to an average of 1.7k per Jawa Junk from slots. This is a 60% reduction in "credit sink per mat" for Doonium and Midlithe. Another aspect of this, is the time to generate mats went from an average of 45 minutes per purple (Crew Missions) to an average of 48 seconds per Jawa Junk (slot machine). This 98% reduction in time resulted in a surfeit of materials, reducing prices across the boards, which reduces amounts "sunk" per sale with the 6% GTN transaction fee. And before anyone flies off the handle and tries to call me a "dirty gouger", please note that I'm NOT trying to say that the price drop was BAD. I'm merely saying it reduced the amount of money being "sunk" out of the economy per transaction. Now, I'm not going to insist that this resulted in inflation. Perhaps the lower prices translated into fewer dailies run, reducing credit creation? Only BW could say for sure. Edited January 23, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Nobody here on the forum is going to be able to provide evidence. That's firmly in the purview of people that can query TOR databases. All we can do is offer theories. One theory as to how crew missions are a better credit sink has to to with the cost of obtaining mats. An average of 4k-5k per purple mat on crew missions, as compared to an average of 1.7k per Jawa Junk from slots. This is a 60% reduction in "credit sink per mat" for Doonium and Midlithe. Another aspect of this, is the time to generate mats went from an average of 45 minutes per purple (Crew Missions) to an average of 48 seconds per Jawa Junk (slot machine). This 98% reduction in time resulted in a surfeit of materials, reducing prices across the boards, which reduces amounts "sunk" per sale with the 6% GTN transaction fee. And before anyone flies off the handle and tries to call me a "dirty gouger", please note that I'm NOT trying to say that the price drop was BAD. I'm merely saying it reduced the amount of money being "sunk" out of the economy per transaction. Now, I'm not going to insist that this resulted in inflation. Perhaps the lower prices translated into fewer dailies run, reducing credit creation? Only BW could say for sure. If you read my post, all they needed to do was increase the cost of the tokens to raise the costs of the mats you got through the slot machine. People would still pay 2k per token, with the same win rate. A stack of 100 tokens would be 200k and would only return 70k, sinking out 130k while only returning 37.5 total jawa scrap, and 2 certs. The distribution was way off on the original iteration (honestly I thought that was what needed patching more than anything else as soon as I seen the number), but the 38 total isn't bad. If they adjusted that to 5/10/15 ratio, you'd have gotten back 6 jawa junk, 12-13 droid parts, 18-19 scavenged scrap, and 2 certs for 130k Now that is a better sink than crew missions, people are happy because they feel like they are getting SOMETHING and therefore will keep playing it, sinking even more from the economy. Prices would fall, but not for the reason of oversupply, but from the withdrawal of credits from the system. Crew missions allow you to generate credits in the system by doing other activities, the slot machine doesn't. The slot machine needs to be a viable option simply because a balanced one is an incredibly efficient credit sink. It's the only one in the game that actually PREVENTS you from generating credits while you are using it. Crew missions don't, repair costs are generated from doing credit generating activities. Mod ripping and augmenting could be suggested as such a sink but they really don't prevent you from generating credits for any length of time, just suck a bunch out in an instant. The slot machine is perfect for the job once its in balance. The price of mats is a good indicator of the level of inflation in the game, the higher the price of mats on the GTN, the more profitable it becomes to run a balanced slot machine over crew missions, and doing so will drain credits out and reduce the price of mats. Eventually the price will drop to where only crew missions are profitable and people will stop using the machine and do crew missions or buy off the GTN. The current nerfs will never let this type of balance happen and no one can deny that a properly balanced slot machine within the current crafting system would not be good for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) If you read my post, all they needed to do was increase the cost of the tokens to raise the costs of the mats you got through the slot machine. People would still pay 2k per token, with the same win rate. A stack of 100 tokens would be 200k and would only return 70k, sinking out 130k while only returning 37.5 total jawa scrap, and 2 certs. Agreed, 2k per coin would have made the slot machines a better credit sink than Crew Missions. Want mats cheap? Run crew missions. Want mats fast? Run slots. I think a few people (myself included) even suggested that a few days ago, before the announcement on Tuesday. Edited January 23, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I can't help but wonder if some clever gold seller managed to hack the slot machine so he could use it without using credits. That could explain why the drop rate needed to be hit with the big nerf hammer, all other issues aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I can't help but wonder if some clever gold seller managed to hack the slot machine so he could use it without using credits. That could explain why the drop rate needed to be hit with the big nerf hammer, all other issues aside. It is at least possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Agreed, 2k per coin would have made the slot machines a better credit sink than Crew Missions. Want mats cheap? Run crew missions. Want mats fast? Run slots. I think a few people (myself included) even suggested that a few days ago, before the announcement on Tuesday. that would have also required adjustments made to crew skills missions, at least when it comes to purple mats (since it already works that way when it comes to blues and greens and especially those vendor mats needed for crafting - like processors, fluxes, etc) that said? yes. this would have worked well. as for OP. good post. I wasn't sure what to expect at first, but after finishing reading - good, thoughtful post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 It is at least possible. If they could spawn the token needed to operate the slots, they wouldn't even need to operate the slots, the same hack could be used to generate Jawa Junk from thin air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Agreed, 2k per coin would have made the slot machines a better credit sink than Crew Missions. Want mats cheap? Run crew missions. Want mats fast? Run slots. I think a few people (myself included) even suggested that a few days ago, before the announcement on Tuesday. The problem still persits that you no longer need to do any crew missions/skills to get mats at all. all players who did that are screwed. Mat gain through the machine needs to be slower and more expensive than crew missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JattaGin Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Dear TYBERzan, excellent opening post! I want to thank you for it (and all your addons to it). It's a pity it got lost between oh so many, well, let's say more average posts. I just read it all and I fully agree. It makes perfect sense, even for someone who didn't study economy. During my studies I had some issues with certain economy students for reasons that don't matter here. But in your case, I am quite sure you will get a good final result and I cross my fingers for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The problem still persits that you no longer need to do any crew missions/skills to get mats at all. all players who did that are screwed. Mat gain through the machine needs to be slower and more expensive than crew missions. more expensive? possibly. (not to the degree that it is post patch though - its pretty much useless right now) slower? absolutely not. on the contrary - it needs to be faster. consider fluxes, processors, dusts, etc. those are mats you can get through missions, or vendors. your choice. its pretty slow through mission skills as you can only run one per character at a time. however - not only you get a minimum of 10 for a cost of about 2, but you also have a chance of a crit - doubling your yield. but even if you do not crit, missions are absolutely worth it, as long as you don't mind taking more time. however - if you are in a hurry - vendor mat supply is infinite. you just end up paying about 5 times more. WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD WORK it does NOT work that way when it comes to purple mats (becasue purple mats are not a guaranteed mat and bad run of rng ends up in your wasting money AND time) and slot machine was a PERFECT way to fix this situation. except they made a mess of it all around. mission skills should have either guaranteed purple rewards, even if its just one purple per bountiful, 2 per rich. or have their crit rate chance doubled at a minimum. meanwhile, machine drop rates need to be corrected as well, to bring it inline with a cost difference we have right now when it comes to above mentioned fluxes and processors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) more expensive? possibly. (not to the degree that it is post patch though - its pretty much useless right now) slower? absolutely not. on the contrary - it needs to be faster. consider fluxes, processors, dusts, etc. those are mats you can get through missions, or vendors. your choice. its pretty slow through mission skills as you can only run one per character at a time. however - not only you get a minimum of 10 for a cost of about 2, but you also have a chance of a crit - doubling your yield. but even if you do not crit, missions are absolutely worth it, as long as you don't mind taking more time. however - if you are in a hurry - vendor mat supply is infinite. you just end up paying about 5 times more. WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD WORK it does NOT work that way when it comes to purple mats (becasue purple mats are not a guaranteed mat and bad run of rng ends up in your wasting money AND time) and slot machine was a PERFECT way to fix this situation. except they made a mess of it all around. mission skills should have either guaranteed purple rewards, even if its just one purple per bountiful, 2 per rich. or have their crit rate chance doubled at a minimum. meanwhile, machine drop rates need to be corrected as well, to bring it inline with a cost difference we have right now when it comes to above mentioned fluxes and processors. The machine should not effect the gameplay/the market. Its a deco item out of the CM which should not interfer with the actual game. The old machine could be ok when the price per token is around 5-6k. At that price, there is no effect on actual gameplay. But thats not what those players want, what all the QQ is about. They want a easy wealth generator (and even at 2K per coin that still would be the case). Edited January 24, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The machine should not effect the gameplay/the market. Its a deco item out of the CM which should not interfer with the actual game. The old machine could be ok when the price per token is around 5-6k. At that price, there is no effect on actual gameplay. But thats not what those players want, what all the QQ is about. They want a easy wealth generator (and even at 2K per coin that still would be the case). its been explained again and again to you that machine doesn't print money, but I guess I need to again. machine on its own doesn't print money it doesn't generate wealth. it generates materials in exchange for credits. or used to anyways. and now, your proposed credit cost is ridiculous, just like current purple mat mission rewards are ridiculous. what people want? is deflation of prices, they want to be able to craft at will, they want to be able to afford to buy stuff off GTN at will. you really need to read OP carefully and slowly until you understand what it explains about economy and inflation. and hell... it doesn't even need to be a machine. it could have been vendor that exchanged basic coms for jawa junk for all I care (although in this case, it wouldn't be credit sink, since basic coms are a reward from questing... which also rewards credits). it just so happened to be a machine to quote Adele. "we could have had it all" :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 its been explained again and again to you that machine doesn't print money, but I guess I need to again. machine on its own doesn't print money it doesn't generate wealth. it generates materials in exchange for credits. or used to anyways. and now, your proposed credit cost is ridiculous, just like current purple mat mission rewards are ridiculous. what people want? is deflation of prices, they want to be able to craft at will, they want to be able to afford to buy stuff off GTN at will. you really need to read OP carefully and slowly until you understand what it explains about economy and inflation. and hell... it doesn't even need to be a machine. it could have been vendor that exchanged basic coms for jawa junk for all I care (although in this case, it wouldn't be credit sink, since basic coms are a reward from questing... which also rewards credits). it just so happened to be a machine to quote Adele. "we could have had it all" :/ What people want is instant gratification and they feel entitled to this. I will admit, I'm not a fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts