The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[S_W_LeGenD]

Well considering she's providing evidence for my main argument that Yoda > Valky in Alter.....

Too bad! Sith Warrior destroyed the Opticron droids before the events of battle with Revan on Yavin IV.

Edited November 28, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

Too bad! Sith Warrior destroyed the Opticron droids before the events of battle with Revan on Yavin IV.

 

The fact that they're destroyed doesn't deny the evidence presented by them.

[S_W_LeGenD]

The fact that they're destroyed doesn't deny the evidence presented by them.

The so-called evidence is not definite and/or lacking. Opticron droids were not witnessed on Ziost.

 

They may have been tasked to prepare for Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual. Who knows?

 

Their disclosures are open to interpretation and only the Hands could understand them (as Servant One pointed out to Sith Warrior during a conversation).

 

If devastation of Ziost was indeed a ritualistic event, BioWare would have simply disclosed it as such in the codex entry.

Edited November 28, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

The so-called evidence is not definite and/or lacking. Opticron droids were not witnessed on Ziost.

 

They may have been tasked to prepare for Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual. Who knows?

 

Their disclosures are open to interpretation and only the Hands could understand them (as Servant One pointed out to Sith Warrior during a conversation).

 

If devastation of Ziost was indeed a ritualistic event, BioWare would have simply disclosed it as such in the codex entry.

 

How is it not proof? Also as far as a galaxy-busting ritual goes, why would Vitiate set it up and then never use it? It seems much more credible that Ziost was a ritual.

[Kaedusz]

Apparently Yoda became more powerful not only after Vitiate ate 1 planet but even after 2. Nobody informed me. I didn't get an email. Neither the birds nor the wind sang his name in my ear. When did this happen?

 

This discussion is weird as hell but still interesting to witness.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Kaedusz

[PadsterPwns]

Apparently Yoda became is more powerful not only after Vitiate ate 1 planet but even after 2. Nobody informed me. I didn't get an email. Neither the birds nor the wind sang his name in my year. When did this happen?

 

This discussion is weird as hell but still interesting to witness.

 

I'm not quite sure what your point is......

[Selenial]

She isn't disclosing full details.

 

[S_W_LeGenD]

How is it not proof? Also as far as a galaxy-busting ritual goes, why would Vitiate set it up and then never use it? It seems much more credible that Ziost was a ritual.

Vitiate orchestrated his galaxy-busting ritual during the times of Great Galactic War (Chapter III of the Jedi Knight story arc) but agents of the Republic and Sith manage to stop him. Disruption of this ritual backfires on Vitiate and he is struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate then proceeds to Yavin IV to recuperate and recover his strength.

 

It is possible that the Opticron droids were tasked to prepare for Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual or some other ritual but they were struck down by the Sith Warrior.

 

As far as I am aware, Opticron droids do not make an appearance in the Ziost based story arc of Vitiate (because of the obvious).

Edited November 28, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[PadsterPwns]

Vitiate orchestrated his galaxy-busting ritual during during the times of Great Galactic War (Chapter III of the Jedi Knight story arc) but agents of the Republic and Sith manage to stop him. Disruption of this ritual backfires on Vitiate and he is struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate then proceeds to Yavin IV to recuperate and recover his strength.

 

It is possible that the Opticron droids were tasked to prepare for Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual or some other ritual but they were struck down by Sith Warrior.

 

As far as I am aware, Opticron droids do not make an appearance in the Ziost based story arc of Vitiate (because of the obvious).

 

Some other ritual = Ziost? What else could it be?

 

Even ignoring this, what is there to support the notion Vitiate could drain Ziost with his own power? It took his power as well as the power of 8000 willing Sith Lords to drain Nathema, so without a ritual (which Ziost likely was) how could Valky/Vitiate drain Ziost?

[S_W_LeGenD]

Some other ritual = Ziost? What else could it be?

It is an assumption. We do not know. Those droids did not mention Ziost.

 

Neither the Hands and nor those droids make an appearance during the Ziost based story arc of Vitiate.

 

Even ignoring this, what is there to support the notion Vitiate could drain Ziost with his own power? It took his power as well as the power of 8000 willing Sith Lords to drain Nathema, so without a ritual (which Ziost likely was) how could Valky/Vitiate drain Ziost?

Vitiate have come a long way since then. He have grown much more powerful and masterful in the ways of the Dark Side since the Nathema event.

Edited November 28, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[Kaedusz]

In addendum to my previous posts, it's important to note that the Coalition Strike Force was the only thing that could stop Revan. Marr made it very clear that even the combined Republic and Imperial army would not be able to stop Revan. So that's another point in Revan and the Coalition's favor, especially when you consider that both armies stationed on Yavin had a collection of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords.

 

Then why is Revan not in top 10, while Plagueis is. A squad of assassins were going to kill Plagueis. Surprise isn't a sufficient enough argument, nor the Assassin's proficiency. It's even weirder than at some point(not sure how long the list hasn't been uptdated) Plagueis was above Vitiate, who is more powerful than Revan.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Kaedusz

[PadsterPwns]

It is an assumption. We do not know. Those droids did not mention Ziost.

 

Neither the Hands and nor those droids make an appearance during the Ziost based story arc of Vitiate.

 

Why would the Hands mention it to the Wrath? Servant 1 was already agitated and the Wrath had just destroyed the droids, would he really tell the Wrath about Ziost?

 

Vitiate have come a long way since then. He have grown much more powerful and masterful in the ways of the Dark Side since the Nathema event.

 

He may have grown more powerful but he has never shown anything prior that suggested he could do that using his own power.

[PadsterPwns]

Then why is Revan not in top 10, while Plagueis is. A squad of Assassins were going to kill Plagueis. Surprise isn't a sufficient enough argument, nor the Assassin's proficiency.

 

Because Revan's never shown anything close to practically atomizing people with his Force pushes. Never mind the fact that Plagueis was near death when he did that.

[Kaedusz]

Because Revan's never shown anything close to practically atomizing people with his Force pushes. Never mind the fact that Plagueis was near death when he did that.

 

Really? That's the reason?

Edited November 28, 2015 by Kaedusz

[Jarons]

Really? That's the reason?

No that's just one of the reason plus its pretty much confirmed that TPM Sidious was weaker than him and had to kill him in his sleep to defeat him.Plus the Midic manipulation thing kinda of put him above Revan.Plus Star killer and Darth Vader is stronger than Vader and He stronger than both of them.

[cs_zoltan]

People are overlooking the most important thing.

 

 

That Lana Beniko is an anagram of Anal Kenobi.

[Jarons]

People are overlooking the most important thing.

 

 

That Lana Beniko is an anagram of Anal Kenobi.

Am really want to know how long this took you to come up with.

[cs_zoltan]

Am really want to know how long this took you to come up with.

 

I didn't, I'm not good with anagrams.

[Beniboybling]

Concerning this ritual thing, I'm inclined to agree with Legend (shocker I know), first off the other lines the Opticrons say are much more clear in their reference to the galaxy-busting ritual:

 

The droids spoke of a ritual. They said that "when he returns, all stars will die."

 

Ziost =/= all stars. The galaxy does, if that is not obvious. Cross reference that with the Wrath's vision of what appears to be the entire galaxy dying, and it seems clear that they are referring to the galaxy-busting ritual.

 

So when the droids also say "When he returns there will be silence" and "the Wrath cannot know the ritual must proceed" it stands to reason that they are referring to the same galactic ritual, "there will be silence" making a lot more sense in terms of a dead galaxy, rather than one dead world, and everyone chattering about it.

 

Sel says that the Wrath already knows about the ritual at this point, but this isn't strictly true, he has an inkling of what's going on, but as I recall Vitiate doesn't become enemy No #1 until Ziost. More importantly however the Hands don't think the Wrath knows, just listen the exchange that the occurs after the dialogue:

 

 

The Wrath asks questions, and the Hand is clearly trying to cover stuff up, and the majority of the discussion revolves around the Wrath's loyalty, and the Hand delivering the message that the Wrath should prepare for the Emperor's return, clearly the Hand would not even attempt to reaffirm the Wrath's loyalty if he knew the truth. This is hardly suprising, as neither the Hands nor the Emperor have any real means of knowing about the Wrath's vision.

 

As for the galaxy-busting ritual not being Vitiate's plan come Ziost, whatever Legends sources may be, I'm not inclined to believe that's true, and the dialogue you have with Valkorion suggests otherwise:

 

 

"They died, opening my eyes to the truth."

 

i.e. it was post-Ziost that Vitiate experience a change in personality and agenda.

 

But then again, there is no indication the Hands or the Opticrons would be let in on Valkorion's change of plans, a personal choice that just so happened to involve the extermination of the Sith Empire, them included.

 

So yeah, Ziost, it would seem, just appears to be the Sith Emperor gathering the power he needed to perform the ritual with mass death, like last time.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

Why would the Hands mention it to the Wrath? Servant 1 was already agitated and the Wrath had just destroyed the droids, would he really tell the Wrath about Ziost?

Based on this conversation:

 

 

Sith Warrior and Servant One

 

The droids spoke of a ritual. They said that "when he returns, all stars will die." (Sith Warrior)

 

The sayings of the Opticrons must be interpreted with care. That is our work, not yours. (Servant One)

 

 

- It is safe to assume that the Opticron droids were referring to the galaxy-busting ritual.

 

Opticron droids and the Hands likely felt that Vitiate would orchestrate the galaxy-busting ritual (again) after his recovery. This is hinted even in a codex entry.

 

However, Vitiate seems to have cancelled or postponed his galaxy-busting ritual after his recovery. His KoTFE story arc is in progress at present.

 

He may have grown more powerful but he has never shown anything prior that suggested he could do that using his own power.

"He may have grown more powerful" is really understating it.

 

Vitiate became much more powerful in the aftermath:

 

 

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

 

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force.

 

 

Moreover, Revan believed in the possibility of Vitiate being a planet-buster during his time. This is hinted in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan. Vitiate is officially stated to be an almost godlike avatar of the Dark Side during the era of Revan.

 

----

 

Raw power (and) Command of the Force collectively determine ALTER abilities of a Force-user.

 

Vitiate spent centuries honing his talents in the Dark Side:

 

 

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

 

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side.

 

 

Vitiate also fueled his raw power with extensive use of Force Drain powers for a long time:

 

 

Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

 

Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

 

Edited November 28, 2015 by S_W_LeGenD

[cs_zoltan]

So I've been thinking about Krayt vs Vader. When we made their comparison we thought that the difference between Vader and Starkiller is marginal at best. Now we know he could've housed Starkiller as early as 1BBY, when he was a shadow of his former self, then going through a big jump of power, reaching his prime in 4ABY.

 

Altogether I feel pre-prime Krayt is Vader and Starkiller's more or less equal when it comes to Force augmentation and endurance, but upon being reborn and having his powers "multiplied", would have surpassed them.

 

 

Altogether I think there is grounds for claiming Vader/Starkiller could match Krayt in this respect, but not surpass him.

I feel the real linchpin in this debate is that Krayt "far outstripped" those of his era before being reborn, since then his powers have "multiplied", and in that respect what he was capable of was likely beyond that of Vader & Starkiller.

 

Considering that Starkiller is roughly equal to pre-Reborn Krayt, and Vader is a "lot more powerful" than him, like Reborn Krayt is to pre-Reborn, I think their could be a case made for Vader being equal to Krayt. The only iffy part would be Sense.

 

Thoughts?

[Beniboybling]

A logical argument, but Krayt would still retain the advantage in Control & Sense.

 

EDIT: Missed the reference to Control, however that is only in terms of augmentation and endurance, I think its still fair to give Krayt the edge in terms of his ability to come back from the dead, and essentially heal any injury.

 

Also folks in terms of the Ziost debate lets not ignore this source:

 

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

 

Which essentially says that unlike the ritualistic planet busting done in the past, this is just raw power.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

No that's just one of the reason plus its pretty much confirmed that TPM Sidious was weaker than him and had to kill him in his sleep to defeat him.

 

Not sure what ''confirmed'' means but i always thought there was a strong possibility for that. Anyway the only real plus Plagueis has over Revan is his midichlorian fetish.

[Selenial]

A logical argument, but Krayt would still retain the advantage in Control & Sense.

 

EDIT: Missed the reference to Control, however that is only in terms of augmentation and endurance, I think its still fair to give Krayt the edge in terms of his ability to come back from the dead, and essentially heal any injury.

 

Also folks in terms of the Ziost debate lets not ignore this source:

 

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

 

Which essentially says that unlike the ritualistic planet busting done in the past, this is just raw power.

No, it says that while rumors have existed, Ziost is the damn Imperial Capital and thus was seen by the entire galaxy.

 

You're literally grasping at any tiny whisp of smoke to justify wanking Vitiate, it's getting a little pathetic. I'm all for having Valkorion over Yoda, but Ziost was a ritual and you seriously need to drop the argument and deal with it, because right now your entire argument for it not being a ritual is "I dunno, he got more powerful so probs wasn't ritual y'know cause reasons and ****"

Edited November 28, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

No, it says that while rumors have existed, Ziost is the damn Imperial Capital and thus was seen by the entire galaxy.

Mm, supposed it could be interpreted in that way.

You're literally grasping at any tiny whisp of smoke to justify wanking Vitiate, it's getting a little pathetic. I'm all for having Valkorion over Yoda, but Ziost was a ritual and you seriously need to drop the argument and deal with it, because right now your entire argument for it not being a ritual is "I dunno, he got more powerful so probs wasn't ritual y'know cause reasons and ****"

Erm, I don't even?

 

1. Because Vitiate wanking is my thing?

2. I should accept Ziost is a ritual because you demand it?

3. What I said here amounts to "I dunno he got more powerful cause reasons?"

 

Did you take a wrong turn into cuckoo land or is this actually supposed to make sense?