Wolfninjajedi Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) Not sure I follow. You said that the DA is confirmed to be more powerful than Starkiller (LS clone), but in that video Vader said that the DA is more powerful than the original Galen. No he was saying he was more powerful than the failures that came before him too. "It does not matter, he was broken and weak. You are already more powerful than he ever was." Plus TFU 2 Databanks about the DA describe him as perfect compared to Starkiller. That and the Clone hasn't shown concealment to that level if any at all as I recall anyway. Starkiller's noted weaknesses were his emotions and feelings. The DA got rid of those entirely and that made him stronger and perfect. Edited November 13, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 No he was saying he was more powerful than the failures that came before him too. "It does not matter, he was broken and weak. You are already more powerful than he ever was." No he didn't lol. He was talking about the original, he used singular not plural. When he mentioned the clones he said they failed because of the memories. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 No he didn't lol. He was talking about the original, he used singular not plural. When he mentioned the clones he said they failed because of the memories. That's it. Which the memories and feelings were noted as his weaknesses, something with the DA overcame and thus he became stronger for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Plus TFU 2 Databanks about the DA describe him as perfect compared to Starkiller. That and the Clone hasn't shown concealment to that level if any at all as I recall anyway. Starkiller's noted weaknesses were his emotions and feelings. The DA got rid of those entirely and that made him stronger and perfect. 1. Quote? 2. Absence of evidence... 3. Weaknesses in the eyes of Vader. 4. That made him perfect for Vader, it doesn't mean he is more powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 (edited) 1. Quote? 2. Absence of evidence... 3. Weaknesses in the eyes of Vader. 4. That made him perfect for Vader, it doesn't mean he is more powerful. I really don't feel like DL TFU 2, beating it but i'll get it later. Fair enough I guess, but even still he was unable to be sensed by 2 powerful Force Users. Seemed like weakness in general. Given that the DA noted as inheriting all of the skills and powers, which means he'd be then at least equal to Starkiller, then at best the two are equal if that's fair enough. I'll still think to the other though. Edited November 13, 2015 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Given that the DA noted as inheriting all of the skills and powers, which means he'd be then at least equal to Starkiller, then at best the two are equal if that's fair enough. I'll still think to the other though. Never thought otherwise. Any power discrepancy between the two should be marginal, if there is any at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Never thought otherwise. Any power discrepancy between the two should be marginal, if there is any at all. Perhaps, perhaps. Speaking of, anyone bring up the fact that it was noted by Sam that Vader wanted to get captured by the Rebels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Perhaps, perhaps. Speaking of, anyone bring up the fact that it was noted by Sam that Vader wanted to get captured by the Rebels? Yep: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8550447&postcount=5038 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted November 16, 2015 Author Share Posted November 16, 2015 Okay so I'm going to attempt a direct as possible comparison between Valkorion & Yoda, however I will be doing so by using Sidious as a proxy, assessing within the various spheres how Yoda stacks up to ROTS Palpatine, and then using that as a basis to make theoreotical conclusions on Yoda's ability to wield various dark side powers. In general I'll be assuming that whatever disparity existing between Yoda & ROTS Palpatine is minimal, and that ROTJ Palpatine very likely surpassed him. I'll be beginning with Control, and hopefully get Sense and Alter up over the week. Comparison of Control As I already elaborated on here Yoda has demonstrated superior ability in the basic ability of Force augmentation, successively overpowering Palpatine with superior strength on multiple occasions as well as driving him into retreat and eventually disarming him through the ferocity of his attack. Yoda was also able to absorb the full intensity of Palpatine's lightning into himself, sufficiently diminish the strength of the attack to the point at which he was able to almost redirect the remaining energy back at his opponent. To break this down Yoda demonstrates superior ability to channel Force energy through his physical form, or to be specific his anima or life energy, both to empower himself and to dissipate harmful energy. Altogether demonstrating himself to be a superior vessel for the living Force, and having greater command over his anima. With that in mind I'd like to assess two key abilities Valkorion possessed, by which we can make a comparison. 1. Valkorion was able to recover from corporeal death by achieving incorporeal immortality.So after experiencing bodily death, Valkorion was able to recover seemingly without any blowback, later describing himself as "beyond death's reach" thanks to the Ziost ritual, which for the moment, seems the case. In comparison, Yoda has demonstrated the cosmic mastery necessary to retain one's identity in the Nether, achieving this spiritual ability thanks to the tutelage and trials underwent by him at the hands of the Force priestesses. But as an incorporeal entity, does he possesses the power that dark siders require to forcibly resist succumbing to the void, without the acceptance of death that Jedi undergo? To deduce that we need to look at Palpatine, who upon his death in ROTJ is described as having "nearly dispersed forever", but nonetheless escaped the void to inhabit a new body. Palpatine's ability to return to the physical plane would have been governed by his ability to channel the remaining living Force/anima he possessed so with that in mind we can make a comparison with Yoda. However, though Yoda was more potent in this regard than ROTS Palpatine, he was likely surpassed as of ROTJ. Is superiority to ROTS Palpatine enough? I would say no, Palpatine spent a year in the void and was described as having "nearly dispersed forever", that strongly implies that he required every ounce of his power to return to the physical plane, any of lack of which would have resulted in failure. In that respect it is more likely than not that Yoda would have succumbed to the void, Valkorion gets the advantage, as there is a considerably disparity between succumbing to corporeal death, and laughing it off.2. Valkorion as Emperor Vitiate was able to conceal the presence of his Children from the Jedi Order.Presumably by using Vitiate's knowledge and power, the First Son was able to conceal the dark presence of himself and Vitiate's other Children, despite many of them living under the Jedi's noses. In comparison however Yoda has demonstrated superior command over his anima (which encompasses his presence in the Force) to Darth Sidious, who was able to conceal his vast presence in the Force from indeed, the entire Jedi Order, a nexus of power easily surpassing combined presence of Vitiate's children, despite actively spreading said power across the galaxy. This already surpasses Vitiate I feel, and Yoda's superiority in the sphere in which it is grounded, suggests he could achieve this to even greater effect, so he gets the edge.Altogether both Yoda and Valkorion have an advantage in seperate fields, however altogether I feel it is Valkorion's edge that is more significant, as ultimately we have not seen the limitations of his ability in Force concealment, which is obviously profound, whereas Yoda's limitations, by using Palpatine as proxy, are far more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted November 17, 2015 Author Share Posted November 17, 2015 So anyone want to add some thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) So anyone want to add some thoughts? New ones? Nope, but I still think Valky survived because of the Outlander. Which he wouldn't admit for obvious reasons, hence him saying otherwise is just all talk. Either that, or it's relative to knowledge and experience, not power. The first time Sidious died he almost succumbed to the Void, after that he was unaffected by it. The first time Valky died he was the same, he needed his hands and Yavin IV to survive. Edited November 17, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) At this rate we will never finish all the lists Edited November 18, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) New ones? Nope, but I still think Valky survived because of the Outlander. Which he wouldn't admit for obvious reasons, hence him saying otherwise is just all talk. His demeanor and our knowledge of him more likely suggest that he simply doesn't care about death, or at least the physical death of any vessels of his anymore. Having in mind his character, he is far too cautious for the Outlander to be an integral part of his survival. The risk factor would be too much for him to consider this a viable course of action. Edited November 18, 2015 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvBot Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) Mace Windu should be on this list. Respect Thread http://www.comicvine.com/profile/erkan12/blog/mace-windu-respect-thread/99305/ Edited November 18, 2015 by AvBot Insert Feats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) At this rate we will never finish all the lists Why are we even debating this? I know I've asked this before but I'm serious. We've only got half of KOTFE to judge him on meaning there could be info we don't know, such as Zaakul could turn out to be a massive nexus or Valky/Vitiate is an entity. I just feel like it is a waste of time to go back on this now when, like I said, Vitiate could be a magic pig for all we know. Does anyone else find it non-methodical, going back to judge a character we only know so much about, that seems to change every expansion? Edited November 19, 2015 by PadsterPwns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Mace Windu should be on this list. Respect Thread http://www.comicvine.com/profile/erkan12/blog/mace-windu-respect-thread/99305/ As a Mace fan: If only... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvBot Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 He is completely underestimated and is disregard by the video game fans for galen and revan. Book versions I believe are more canon then the games because it is too much of an exaggeration. Mace was the best swordsman the jedi had ever seen especially with his unique twist on juyo. Maces vapaad was the best against sith. He nearly took down sidious had anakin not intervened. His force powers were unmatched by all except yoda and sidious. Even in the njo the only opposer to mace would be gml maybe even kyle katarn but it would be a difficult spar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 He is completely underestimated and is disregard by the video game fans for galen and revan. Book versions I believe are more canon then the games because it is too much of an exaggeration. Mace was the best swordsman the jedi had ever seen especially with his unique twist on juyo. Maces vapaad was the best against sith. He nearly took down sidious had anakin not intervened. His force powers were unmatched by all except yoda and sidious. Even in the njo the only opposer to mace would be gml maybe even kyle katarn but it would be a difficult spar. 1. We do use book versions. Except for Revan, since he only has 1 novel, pre-prime. 2. Lightsaber skill on this list doesn't matter. 3. Yeah Mace was a topdog of his era, that doesn't necessarily guarantees a spot on this list. 4. I'm sure he'll make the next list, which is the Jedi only list. Or he might even get the spot around 15 on this list, but that's being optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 4. I'm sure he'll make the next list, which is the Jedi only list. Or he might even get the spot around 15 on this list, but that's being optimistic. Is it? I think he could get somewhere around 12 or 13, who else (apart from Dooku, even then that's debatable) would be ahead of Mace after the characters being debated for 9? Though I may think this due to my lack of knowledge on characters after the OT era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Is it? I think he could get somewhere around 12 or 13, who else (apart from Dooku, even then that's debatable) would be ahead of Mace after the characters being debated for 9? Though I may think this due to my lack of knowledge on characters after the OT era. Kyp, Jaina, Wyyrlok, Traya, Dooku, Shaak Ti, Malgus, Bane, Zannah are all around that level and could realistically be placed above him. Although I'll do my best effort that only Ti should be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Fisto, Fisto, Fisto, Fisto, Fisto, Shaak Ti (fodder), Fisto, Fisto, Fisto are all around that level and could realistically be placed above him. Although I'll do my best effort that only Ti (fodder) should be I agree, Fisto is just too powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I agree, Fisto is just too powerful. http://replygif.net/i/1099.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 http://replygif.net/i/1099.gif But seriously I need to read more Star Wars, I did not know that Zannah was Mace level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvBot Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Kyp, Jaina, Wyyrlok, Traya, Dooku, Shaak Ti, Malgus, Bane, Zannah are all around that level and could realistically be placed above him. Although I'll do my best effort that only Ti should be I have to disagree kyp wouldn't be above mace I don't see it. Jaina would for sure being at the top with gml and Kyle katarn she would struggle though. Shaak ti in my opinion doesn't have as much impressive feats as mace does dooku is on par with mace but when they would spar he was still jedi. Only once did they fight and he used magnas to get away because mace was using vapaad. Which can arguably get by Masashi. All the other sith cannot be placed above solely because of vapaad. Most will revert to force powers like sidious did when they know they can't win by saber. His shatterpoint ability would also crush those who even attempt lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PadsterPwns Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I have to disagree kyp wouldn't be above mace I don't see it. Jaina would for sure being at the top with gml and Kyle katarn she would struggle though. Shaak ti in my opinion doesn't have as much impressive feats as mace does dooku is on par with mace but when they would spar he was still jedi. Only once did they fight and he used magnas to get away because mace was using vapaad. Which can arguably get by Masashi. All the other sith cannot be placed above solely because of vapaad. Most will revert to force powers like sidious did when they know they can't win by saber. His shatterpoint ability would also crush those who even attempt lightning. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this thread is about Force abilities so Vaapad doesn't really mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts