The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Aurbere]

Aurbere and Ant (well just Aurbere really, Ant's a lost cause) I know you like Revan as a character but really, you're taking this way too seriously. This is why every topic on the matter ends in a flame war, if you want a flame war then by all means continue, but if you don't then I suggest you stop taking every unfavourable assessment of the character so personally. Frankly it's obnoxious, and I find myself unable to engage with you if you can't act maturely.As with you're other claim, I provided plenty of proof already, namely here.

 

I don't really take it personally. I take your use of double standards and various other fallacies personally, however.

 

And, again, your idea that it's a ritual is baseless speculation and absolutely pure assumption. It's a ritual because Revan can, you know, aim where he throws people? It's a ritual because the Coalition was imprisoned in whirlwinds of pure light/dark energy? It's a ritual because the spirit provided energy to counteract said prisons?

 

Nothing indicates a ritual. Not even the 'scenery' as you seem to believe.

 

But sure, let's assume it's a ritual for a moment. This is an example of Sith Sorcery that Revan was able to perform off the cuff. Why disallow it yet allow Kun's uses of Sith Sorcery through means designed to focus and augment his powers? Why allow Kun's Senate feat? Why allow his Force Blasts? Why allow any of that if you refuse to acknowledge Revan's Yavin feat?

[Beniboybling]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/88/c5/50/88c550efd06668770701fadafd16df50.gif

[Rhyltran]

Why are we focusing so much on a feat that is rooted into gameplay mechanics? How much of that was gameplay mechanics? Are we even sure that this actually took place in the way it did? Even if we concede that it did but why is it such a big deal? We don't know who the player character really was in this fight. We don't know if it was the Jedi Knignt, Sith Warrior, Nox, or anyone else. Bioware has stated numerous times that no player character's story is canon.

 

So let's assume for a moment he held all of them at bay while pummeling them with dark side blasts. These blasts weren't enough to outright kill them and while holding them in place is impressive.. let's analyze the characters. There's Marr who is past his prime and by his own admittance dying. Satele Shan who could never even beat Malgus in a straight fight. She's not anyhwere on the level of the rest of the people on this list. Lana Beniko who is a simple Lord (with a lot of potential apparently) and the rest are non-force sensitives. So the only real feat is the fact that he held Marr and Satele in place.

 

I'm not completely knocking it but at the same time you need more than just this feat to place Revan higher than Vader/Kun.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

Why are we focusing so much on a feat that is rooted into gameplay mechanics? How much of that was gameplay mechanics? Are we even sure that this actually took place in the way it did? Even if we concede that it did but why is it such a big deal? We don't know who the player character really was in this fight. We don't know if it was the Jedi Knignt, Sith Warrior, Nox, or anyone else. Bioware has stated numerous times that no player character's story is canon.

 

So let's assume for a moment he held all of them at bay while pummeling them with dark side blasts. These blasts weren't enough to outright kill them and while holding them in place is impressive.. let's analyze the characters. There's Marr who is past his prime and by his own admittance dying. Satele Shan who could never even beat Malgus in a straight fight. She's not anyhwere on the level of the rest of the people on this list. Lana Beniko who is a simple Lord (with a lot of potential apparently) and the rest are non-force sensitives. So the only real feat is the fact that he held Marr and Satele in place.

 

I'm not completely knocking it but at the same time you need more than just this feat to place Revan higher than Vader/Kun.

 

Pretty sure this is about the same thing i said earlier...

[Beniboybling]

Well I try to encourage civility, it failed, so I guess this is going to get ugly.

I don't really take it personally. I take your use of double standards and various other fallacies personally, however.

If you take every perceived fallacy and double standard you see personally, you must feel very very persecuted.

 

You know what I take personally? You're accusation my argument is a "sham." But I won't hold it against you.

And, again, your idea that it's a ritual is baseless speculation and absolutely pure assumption.

base·less

adj.

Having no basis or foundation in fact; unfounded.

 

It is a fact that the Revan's victims end up symmetrically spread across the arena by his attack.

It is a fact that the likelihood of that happening by chance is infinitesimally low.

It is a fact that running around with special coloured orbs is a highly irregular way of countering TK.

It is a fact that there is a design, deliberate or undeliberate, to the whole attack.

It is a fact that Sith architecture, like the construction the battle took place in, uses it's design to channel power.

 

So how again is by "idea" baseless speculation and absolutely pure assumption? Saying Revan's favourite food is pizza is baseless speculation and pure assumption. Learn to tell the difference, or disprove each of the above as factual.

It's a ritual because Revan can, you know, aim where he throws people?

Are you suggesting he did so with such accuracy on whim? What reason, exactly, could Revan possibly have for positioning his targets symmetrical across an architecture of Sith design, other than to facilitate a ritual?

 

It demands an explanation, if you have an alternate one by all means provide it.

It's a ritual because the Coalition was imprisoned in whirlwinds of pure light/dark energy?

It's a ritual because the spirit provided energy to counteract said prisons?

No, because there was a clear and specific method to countering it.

 

Is it proof by itself? No but it only reaffirms what is proven by other factors.

Nothing indicates a ritual. Not even the 'scenery' as you seem to believe.

Care to explain why the Sith architecture is irrelevant? Or are cherry picking and strawman the strategies of choice?

But sure, let's assume it's a ritual for a moment. This is an example of Sith Sorcery that Revan was able to perform off the cuff. Why disallow it yet allow Kun's uses of Sith Sorcery through means designed to focus and augment his powers? Why allow Kun's Senate feat? Why allow his Force Blasts? Why allow any of that if you refuse to acknowledge Revan's Yavin feat?

It's not a question of disallowing anything. It's a question of interpreting the feat for what it is, rather than what we want it to be. A feat being Sith Sorcery/Ritual isn't grounds for dismissing it, and you can refer to Rhyltran's points on the matter for why, but it remains a fact that it is not as impressive as achieving the same feat through raw power alone.

 

Kun's Senate feat is not as impressive as if he had dominated them with raw power alone. Nor are Kun's Force blasts as impressive as the likes of Sidious reducing individuals to ash with Force lighting. Really his Force blasts on Yavin 4 aren't relevant at all considering it's strongly implied and highly likely that they were channelling the planet's power on top of his own. And likewise any ritual performed on Yavin 4, tapping in to the focusing powers of the Sith architecture no less, is definitely going to draw heavily on the potent dark side energies surrounding the place.

 

Continue to rail about double-standards as long as you like, but you'll find none, and only exhaust yourself.

[Beniboybling]

Why are we focusing so much on a feat that is rooted into gameplay mechanics? How much of that was gameplay mechanics? Are we even sure that this actually took place in the way it did? Even if we concede that it did but why is it such a big deal? We don't know who the player character really was in this fight. We don't know if it was the Jedi Knignt, Sith Warrior, Nox, or anyone else. Bioware has stated numerous times that no player character's story is canon.

 

So let's assume for a moment he held all of them at bay while pummeling them with dark side blasts. These blasts weren't enough to outright kill them and while holding them in place is impressive.. let's analyze the characters. There's Marr who is past his prime and by his own admittance dying. Satele Shan who could never even beat Malgus in a straight fight. She's not anyhwere on the level of the rest of the people on this list. Lana Beniko who is a simple Lord (with a lot of potential apparently) and the rest are non-force sensitives. So the only real feat is the fact that he held Marr and Satele in place.

 

I'm not completely knocking it but at the same time you need more than just this feat to place Revan higher than Vader/Kun.

It's true, the feat is only shown in gameplay, not a cutscene, so the accuracy is questionable. However it was depicted so that's grounds for assuming some semblance of the attack occurred.

 

General rule of thumb is to take the feat with a pinch of salt, that seems to have been abandoned...

 

Anyway I would disagree concerning your assessments of his opponents.

 

Darth Marr may be ravaged by the dark side, but is power is never said to have diminished as a result. In fact he's slapping down Darth level opponents with ease, with combat abilities described as second to none.

 

Satele Shan's inability to defeat one of the most powerful Sith Lords of the era is hardly proof of weakness, she's still capable of blowing blast doors to pieces, shattering cliff faces and scrapping hex droids.

 

Finally Lana, while possessing few feats, has been described as having "great" strength. Altogether two of these individually are heavyweights of the era, and the other is not to scoffed at, I doubt Vader or Kun could TK any of them.

[Lecaja]

I think there has to be a distinction between potential power and actualized power as well as the medium the story is in. Luke Skywalker might be the most powerful in terms of potential but his actual powers were limited by late 70s and early 80s technology. Nonforce users in this game released as a video game four years ago would wipe the floor with him and I'm talking about NPCS.

[Selenial]

I think there has to be a distinction between potential power and actualized power as well as the medium the story is in. Luke Skywalker might be the most powerful in terms of potential but his actual powers were limited by late 70s and early 80s technology. Nonforce users in this game released as a video game four years ago would wipe the floor with him and I'm talking about NPCS.

 

70's and 80's technology stopped people from drawing comics or writing novels? k.

 

Not to mention his best feats came out a few years ago, tops.

[LadyKulvax]

This one's my favourite:

 

"The Sith developed talismans of concentration to help them focus during long, elaborate rites, those typically associated with the tapping of vast amounts of dark side power. The talisman allowed the sorcerer to concentrate all of his will to the creation of the desired effect, temporarily increasing his ability to manipulate the Force. Unfortunately, use of such a device often caused the wielder to succumb to exhaustion the moment his Force effect was completed."

 

Ah so it's bias to slightly disagree with something you say.

 

Please, forgive me.

 

So you're using a general description of a generic Sith artifact to lowball Kun with when we already have solid descriptions of the very amulet that Kun used? Said descriptions stating the amulet used his inner rage to channel dark side energy blasts. This is a really, really poor argument, an argument which noticeably lacks any actual definitive comparison of feats between Kun and any other character being discussed here.

 

It is almost certainly bias to dismiss every single one of Exar Kun's feats as amped. I guess the countless accolades making him out to be one of the most powerful Force Users in the entire mythos, feared by the likes of Luke Skywalker is complete ******** then.

 

Let us totally ignore the author intent and everything, because one source makes a genrral description about an array of artifacts.

 

Kun is weaksauce without an amulet. /debate

Edited August 28, 2015 by LadyKulvax

[that_Spartan_IV]

I doubt Exar Kun's amulet helped him paralize the Supreme Chancellor and Force Stun the entire Senate.

[Selenial]

So you're using a general description of a generic Sith artifact to lowball Kun with when we already have solid descriptions of the very amulet that Kun used? Said descriptions stating the amulet used his inner rage to channel dark side energy blasts. This is a really, really poor argument, an argument which noticeably lacks any actual definitive comparison of feats between Kun and any other character being discussed here.

 

It is almost certainly bias to dismiss every single one of Exar Kun's feats as amped. I guess the countless accolades making him out to be one of the most powerful Force Users in the entire mythos, feared by the likes of Luke Skywalker is complete ******** then.

 

Let us totally ignore the author intent and everything, because one source makes a genrral description about an array of artifacts.

 

Kun is weaksauce without an amulet. /debate

Ah, so your argument is "it doesn't apply to Kun cause reasons pls deal".

 

K, solid job there. This is really me being biased over the TOTJ series right

 

> calls authorial intent

> ignores the fact the same authors depict amulets as having the power to block fire from a fleet by merely holding them

> logic reigns supreme

Edited August 28, 2015 by Selenial

[LadyKulvax]

So your arbitrary application of the despiction of talismans over-rules the actual description of Kun's own amulet? #logic

[Beniboybling]

Okay so back on the subject of Exar Kun's gauntlets.

Except I've already provided sources that all a Sith has to do is concentrate and will something for the amulets to increase their force power. I've already provided a source for a Far far far far far far far weaker amulet deflecting a Base Delta Zero tactic from a fleet of hammerheads.

 

You're either suggesting one of two things right now. Either Kun found the top end feats that he performed so easy that he decided he didn't even need the gauntlets, or... wait, no, that's it. That's the only logical explanation for Kun not using the amulets that are confirmed to increase his power at will.

 

So really, if you're going to say he didn't use his amulets, you're saying he barely struggled with his feats. guess if he accomplished those feats both easily and without an amp, we might as well go ahead and place him above Caedus already.

Problem is I don't think the sources you've provided adequately prove that an amulet is a catch all device for any one Force power, which I'd remind everyone are different and work in different ways, even in the scope of their categories.

 

First, the Kressh Gauntlet, which is only ever stated to have one purpose:

 

"I'm surprised you didn't recognize this other addition from the Covenant's own stores of Sith relics! The Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger—while I have it, no one may touch me without my consent!"

 

That's it, all it does is essentially create Force barriers. It's wielder never, and presumably being unable, to use it for any other purpose. Likewise Exar Kun's amulet has only ever been explicitly depicted channelling and magnifying his rage into the Force blast, it's never expliclty shown to be used for any other purpose.

 

I think it's therefore safe to assume that that is it's only purpose, and can't boost Kun's power in general.

 

Now in regards to you're other piece of evidence (which can we have a source for?), it's equally unconvincing:

 

"The Sith developed talismans of concentration to help them focus during long, elaborate rites, those typically associated with the tapping of vast amounts of dark side power. The talisman allowed the sorcerer to concentrate all of his will to the creation of the desired effect, temporarily increasing his ability to manipulate the Force. Unfortunately, use of such a device often caused the wielder to succumb to exhaustion the moment his Force effect was completed."

 

I highlighted the following because it highlights the purpose of the amulets being referred to, i.e. not standard Force powers, but "long elaborate rites" requiring "vast amounts of dark side power", only one of which Kun is shown to have performed and with obvious use of talismans and apparatus. But this isn't applicable to standard Force powers.

 

Can the next sentence be interpreted as proof of Sel's point? Yes, but only taken out of context of everything else and by appealing to the fact it's ambigious. Yes talismans can be used to achieve one's desired effect, but it's ambigious as it whether it can achieve any desired effect, or only the one that the talisman is designed to facilitate.

 

I think what we've see from the Kressh Gauntlet, as well as Naga Sadow's gauntlets, suggest the latter.

 

I would agree though that in terms of Force blasts, the amulet is augmenting Kun's power beyond what he's capable of.

[Selenial]

So your arbitrary application of the despiction of talismans over-rules the actual description of Kun's own amulet? #logic

 

The two separate descriptions of the amulet, you mean? One being that it massively amplifies his rage, and focuses it, one that it can focus rage into powerful force blasts? You decide they both refer to force blasts only, I take them to mean what they actually say they mean. Not to mention what actually lines up with the rest of continuity.

 

Then again, I'm not sure I actually need to defend myself here, the amount of times your knowledge of Kun has "lapsed" in this thread is disappointing. Saying he "deflected starfighter attacks without a gesture"? You're even choosing to ignore sources people have brought up numerous times already. You want proof that Kun's amulet amps him beyond force blasts? How about the source Zoltan posted 14 pages ago?

 

"The light from the ancient talisman expands...and then joins into one brightness, enveloping the two warriors in mysterious energies..."

[Beniboybling]

You want proof that Kun's amulet amps him beyond force blasts? How about the source Zoltan posted 14 pages ago?

 

"The light from the ancient talisman expands...and then joins into one brightness, enveloping the two warriors in mysterious energies..."

Problem with this as evidence is two-fold:

 

1. It sets a precedent for the amulet's glowing when in use, and yet they are never seen to glow again.

 

2. The amulets are again described as being used for a specific purpose

 

...the Sith amulets begin to glow, their inner workings awakening from a thousand year sleep ... This is a moment conceived in the long-forgotten time when the Sith were a might race of magicians... a time when Sith magic learned how to construct amulets to carry down through the centuries... a message from their reigning Dark Lord of the Sith!

 

So the amulet can create Force blasts, and summon the spirits of ancient Sith Lords. You need to prove it can do more.

[Selenial]

Problem with this as evidence is two-fold:

 

1. It sets a precedent for the amulet's glowing when in use, and yet they are never seen to glow again.

 

2. The amulets are again described as being used for a specific purpose

 

...the Sith amulets begin to glow, their inner workings awakening from a thousand year sleep ... This is a moment conceived in the long-forgotten time when the Sith were a might race of magicians... a time when Sith magic learned how to construct amulets to carry down through the centuries... a message from their reigning Dark Lord of the Sith!

 

So the amulet can create Force blasts, and summon the spirits of ancient Sith Lords. You need to prove it can do more.

So you're asking me to prove the amulet isn't limited. That's a solid debating tactic there beni, asking someone to prove a negative. Hella impressive. Still, since I've shown it using another use, that's already done!

 

You need to prove the Amulet is limited only to force blasts, because nothing actually says that. Sure, there are quotes that say it allows him to use Force Blasts, but it doesn't stop there. Numerous other quotes show it being used for different things, and every time you come across one of those you can add it to your little list, telling me to find more, but I doubt you're convincing anyone.

 

And while I appreciate your argument regarding Kresh's gauntlet (amazing stretch, even for you, I was impressed.) since Haazen used it to eviscerate numerous Jedi at the same time with a blast of Lightning, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

So you're asking me to prove the amulet isn't limited. That's a solid debating tactic there beni, asking someone to prove a negative. Hella impressive. Still, since I've shown it using another use, that's already done!

 

You need to prove the Amulet is limited only to force blasts, because nothing actually says that. Sure, there are quotes that say it allows him to use Force Blasts, but it doesn't stop there. Numerous other quotes show it being used for different things, and every time you come across one of those you can add it to your little list, telling me to find more, but I doubt you're convincing anyone.

 

And while I appreciate your argument regarding Kresh's gauntlet (amazing stretch, even for you, I was impressed.) since Haazen used it to eviscerate numerous Jedi at the same time with a blast of Lightning, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

You're not taking into account my first point, the amulet glows when it's in use, if what you're suggesting was the case the amulet should be glowing constantly, but it never does again.

 

As for the Kressh Gauntlet, my mistake, it appears to be capable of tutaminis as well, which makes sense considering that Force barrier and tutaminis and two sides of the same coin, but that's hardly grounds for claiming it can do anything.

 

And for the record, highlighting that you can't prove the amulet isn't limited, isn't proof in itself.

[Selenial]

You're not taking into account my first point, the amulet glows when it's in use, if what you're suggesting was the case the amulet should be glowing constantly, but it never does again.

 

As for the Kressh Gauntlet, my mistake, it appears to be capable of tutaminis as well, which makes sense considering that Force barrier and tutaminis and two sides of the same coin, but that's hardly grounds for claiming it can do anything.

 

And for the record, highlighting that you can't prove the amulet isn't limited, isn't proof in itself.

 

Not really, since we know he uses it for Force Blasts and it doesn't glow then. The fact it glowed is kind of irrelevant.

 

And where did I say Tutaminis? He fried numerous Jedi with Lightning, that's not Tutaminis

 

That's not the point. I've already provided two instances of the amulet not being limited to Force Blasts. Your counter to that is saying "fine, it's limited to Force Blasts, X and Y then. Prove the other stuff used it too." Which is flawed logic, for numerous reasons.

[Beniboybling]

Well if we examine the bare bones of you're argument I feel it's clear why it's incomplete.

 

For example let's say we have a Jedi whose offensive Force powers are limited to TK, but then we find evidence that suggest he can use Alter Enviroment as well, do we therefore assume he can use all offensive Jedi powers, just because there is no evidence to suggest he can't? Hardly. I feel that this situation is very similar.

 

I'm just finding it a leap in logic to go from, it can do one thing, to it can do two things, to it can do anything. I feel we need proof to justify that last leap. Although I'm also finding it difficult to establish just what it's purpose and limitations are.

 

Concerning the Kressh Gauntlet, according to the Wookiee it can turn whatever energy it absorbs back on the target, which appears to take the form of red lightning, if you're referring to something else I'd appreciate seeing it.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Selenial]

Well if we examine the bare bones of you're argument I feel it's clear why it's incomplete.

 

For example let's say we have a Jedi whose offensive Force powers are limited to TK, but then we find evidence that suggest he can use Alter Enviroment as well, do we therefore assume he can use all offensive Jedi powers, just because there is no evidence to suggest he can't? Hardly. I feel that this situation is very similar.

 

I'm just finding it a leap in logic to go from, it can do one thing, to it can do two things, to it can do anything. I feel we need proof to justify that last leap. Although I'm also finding it difficult to establish just what it's purpose and limitations are.

 

Concerning the Kressh Gauntlet, according to the Wookiee it can turn whatever energy it absorbs back on the target, which appears to take the form of red lightning, if that's not the case I'd appreciate seeing the evidence for myself.

 

Well, it does that too, yeh. But you can find the scans on Nova's RT, I'd assume.

 

And that's a completely different case, it's almost laughable. If you want to keep using that ridiculous analogy though, it's actually more similar to the following:

 

- A Jedi can use force push

- The Jedi is shown to use force pull

- The Jedi is said to have ability to use telekinesis in general.

 

Therefore he can use force grip.

 

It's pretty simple, numerous quotes suggest that the gauntlets boost rage and force power. Trying to suggest they only can for 2 abilities requires proof that you frankly do not have.

 

You keep telling me to prove more and more to change your stubborn opinions, so let's throw this back on you. Show us a single quote that says Kun's amulet is limited to Force Blasts.

[cs_zoltan]

Speaking of Sel should prove this and source that...you guys still didn't provide a single quote/scan/source that proves that the gauntlet is only good for Force Blast, even though Sel asked for it 14 pages ago.

 

Prove it, since Alema herself says the gauntlets wield more Dark Power than she did.

[cs_zoltan]

You keep telling me to prove more and more to change your stubborn opinions, so let's throw this back on you. Show us a single quote that says Kun's amulet is limited to Force Blasts.

 

Ninja'd again

[LadyKulvax]

You want proof that Kun's amulet amps him beyond force blasts? How about the source Zoltan posted 14 pages ago?

 

"The light from the ancient talisman expands...and then joins into one brightness, enveloping the two warriors in mysterious energies..."

 

As I posted 13 pages that was only because of the Sith spirits congregating and christening them.

[LadyKulvax]

Speaking of Sel should prove this and source that...you guys still didn't provide a single quote/scan/source that proves that the gauntlet is only good for Force Blast, even though Sel asked for it 14 pages ago.

 

How about you prove Kun's does anything more than that? You've failed to make a single sourced argument that states he is amped constantly by his amulet. The one posted by Selenial is flawed and not even describing Kun's own.

[Beniboybling]

Well, it does that too, yeh. But you can find the scans on Nova's RT, I'd assume.

Yeah I looked it up, I think Nova is mistaken however as the lightning is coming from his other hand.

 

Pretty sure Tutanimis is all it's good for.

And that's a completely different case, it's almost laughable. If you want to keep using that ridiculous analogy though, it's actually more similar to the following:

 

- A Jedi can use force push

- The Jedi is shown to use force pull

- The Jedi is said to have ability to use telekinesis in general.

 

Therefore he can use force grip.

 

It's pretty simple, numerous quotes suggest that the gauntlets boost rage and force power. Trying to suggest they only can for 2 abilities requires proof that you frankly do not have.

 

You keep telling me to prove more and more to change your stubborn opinions, so let's throw this back on you. Show us a single quote that says Kun's amulet is limited to Force Blasts.

Stubborn opinions?

 

But really, I can see the merit in you're stance I just want to ensure that any decision we come to has been thoroughly tested, don't confuse me for arguing for the sake of arguing, I have no vested interest in who takes the #9 spot.

 

Anyway I feel we're coming full circle now, I addressed that initially here, there is a precedent set for amulet's having specific purposes, and the Kressh Gauntlet isn't the only one, there are several other amulets that we're designed for specific tasks and Exar Kun's gauntlets are no different.

 

But I can see how that purpose can be a general amplification of Force rage rather than a specific Force rage attack.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Beniboybling