Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) But my question is why is he being considered an equal to people whose feats he only replicates while amped?The point of contention is Sel that Kun's amulet was involved and amplified every feat he ever performed. However if it's merely a device for focusing his rage into Force blasts, that wouldn't be the case. It would (and should) only apply to Force blasts, and not as that big an amp as it's originating from himself. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Muur was still a sith spirit, which means he could've been a lot more powerful than as a mortal.You don't know the power difference between Muur, Pal, and Kun. So 4k years of advancement could easily bridge that gap. Edited August 27, 2015 by cs_zoltan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The point of contention is Sel that Kun's amulet was involved and amplified every feat he ever performed. However if it's merely a device for focusing his rage into Force blasts, that wouldn't be the case. It would (and should) only apply to Force blasts, and not as that big an amp as it's originating from himself. It should, yes, if you completely and utterly disregard source material that says otherwise? It doesn't even have to apply to all of his feats, but the high end ones that took a great amount of effort from him obviously utilized the gauntlets for strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 OK, catching back up on this thread I've seen a peculiar set of arguments made by Kun supporters. For now, however, I will draw attention to something Beni posted: Anyway, concluding that everything Kun did on Yavin 4 is a nexus feat, assumes that for every one of those feats Kun was drawing on a nexus. However if Kun didn't need a nexus to perform those feats, he wouldn't have drawn upon it, so again, you're assuming he did. I don't think that's a safe assumption to make unless it's actually stated. So now I'll beg the question, is Revan ever stated as having drawn on the nexus of Yavin 4 during his nexus feats? You make such claims every time said feats are mentioned, yet here you suggest that one needs to know if they were drawing on the nexus in order to say it was a nexus feat. So, is Revan ever stated as having drawn upon the nexus for his most famous feats there? Oh wait, you've already answered this question in your own way: There is no logical reason for Revan > Luke though so it's obvious he was drawing on a nexus. Ignoring the obvious strawman (Revan > Luke, that is), you've made the assumption that Revan was drawing on the nexus, with no evidence to support it. So I'll pose a question, will you allow Revan's nexus feats as you seem so inclined for Kun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Ignoring the obvious strawman (Revan > Luke, that is), you've made the assumption that Revan was drawing on the nexus, with no evidence to support it. So I'll pose a question, will you allow Revan's nexus feats as you seem so inclined for Kun?Obvious strawman? Fraid not. I explained quite extensively why taking Revan's feats at face value means Revan > Luke. Prove otherwise, and provide an alternate explanation for Revan's increment in power, and I'll consider making that allowance. P.S. I will also note that Revan was fighting for his life/plans and lost, not drawing on the Yavin 4 would be foolish. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 It should, yes, if you completely and utterly disregard source material that says otherwise? It doesn't even have to apply to all of his feats, but the high end ones that took a great amount of effort from him obviously utilized the gauntlets for strength. That seems like conjecture to me. We need actual proof that Kun was using the amulets for every feat you believe he did, not you're own supposition. It's obvious that Kun used the amulet for his Force blasts, but it's baseless to assume he was dependent on it for anything else or that it could even function for any other purpose. At the very least be specific. Did he used it while fighting Vodo? Did he use it to crush the Sith Holocron? Did he use it to locate the Ketos? Kill Odan-Urr? Paralyse the Senate? I'd like to be clear on what feats we've decided to dismiss. I think that the general argument I made before that raw power > Sith magic has merit, but claiming that all Kun's best feats where probably/obviously only made possible using his amulet is taking things a little too far I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Muur was still a sith spirit, which means he could've been a lot more powerful than as a mortal.You don't know the power difference between Muur, Pal, and Kun. So 4k years of advancement could easily bridge that gap. Also the whole Muur "incident" was in 19 BBY. Those 3 facts alone should make the Muur measuring stick irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Muur was still a sith spirit, which means he could've been a lot more powerful than as a mortal.You don't know the power difference between Muur, Pal, and Kun. So 4k years of advancement could easily bridge that gap.Fair points, fair points, at this stage I'm willing to concede or concur with whatever is the consensus, but I'd like to here Aurbere's arguments for Revan first, or anybody's at this point really.Also the whole Muur "incident" was in 19 BBY. Those 3 facts alone should make the Muur measuring stick irrelevant.Considering what Muur was capable of it I find it very unlikely Vader surpassed him. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 P.S. I will also note that Revan was fighting for his life/plans and lost, not drawing on the Yavin 4 would be foolish. Sith covets more power, not drawing on anything that would give you just that is foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 That seems like conjecture to me. We need actual proof that Kun was using the amulets for every feat you believe he did, not you're own supposition. It's obvious that Kun used the amulet for his Force blasts, but it's baseless to assume he was dependent on it for anything else or that it could even function for any other purpose. At the very least be specific. Did he used it while fighting Vodo? Did he use it to crush the Sith Holocron? Did he use it to locate the Ketos? Kill Odan-Urr? Paralyse the Senate? I'd like to be clear on what feats we've decided to dismiss. I think that the general argument I made before that raw power > Sith magic has merit, but claiming that all Kun's best feats where probably/obviously only made possible using his amulet is taking things a little too far I feel. Except I've already provided sources that all a Sith has to do is concentrate and will something for the amulets to increase their force power. I've already provided a source for a Far far far far far far far weaker amulet deflecting a Base Delta Zero tactic from a fleet of hammerheads. You're either suggesting one of two things right now. Either Kun found the top end feats that he performed so easy that he decided he didn't even need the gauntlets, or... wait, no, that's it. That's the only logical explanation for Kun not using the amulets that are confirmed to increase his power at will. So really, if you're going to say he didn't use his amulets, you're saying he barely struggled with his feats. guess if he accomplished those feats both easily and without an amp, we might as well go ahead and place him above Caedus already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Sith covets more power, not drawing on anything that would give you just that is foolish.In general? Sure, and Kun did, he built multiple temples and used the power of Yavin to make himself into an indomitable spirit. But what you're suggesting is the equivalent of saying that a guy with a fancy fast car would be foolish not to drive it his neighbor five yards down the road, because he likes driving fancy fast cars. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Fair points, fair points, at this stage I'm willing to concede or concur with whatever is the consensus, but I'd like to here Aurbere's arguments for Revan first, or anybody's at this point really. I'm waiting on Aurbere as well. I made my case for SK > Vader before the Krayt debate, and you made my case for Vader > Kun, so only Revan's left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) We've been waiting on Aurbere for since the get go, I think he's waiting for DarthAnt to resubscribe. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 In general? Sure, and Kun did, he built multiple temples and used the power of Yavin to make himself into an indomitable spirit. But what you're suggesting is the equivalent of saying that a guy with a fancy fast car would be foolish not to drive it his neighbor five yards down the road, because he likes driving fancy fast cars. Smashing a holocron is no ordinary feat, and likely result of the nexus. At least partially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 We've been waiting on Aurbere for since the get go, I think he's waiting for DarthAnt to subscribe. Ant's actually still got a subscription. But anyway, Aurb's been RV shopping. I assume he'll get to this post and stop wasting my time soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Smashing a holocron is no ordinary feat, and likely result of the nexus. At least partially.And Kun is no ordinary guy. But I suppose there is grounds for assuming he used the nexus, which makes the feat ambiguous.Ant's actually still got a subscription.Oh really? Hey Ant why not come on over and share you're thoughts. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) And Kun is no ordinary guy. But I suppose there is grounds for assuming he used the nexus, which makes the feat ambiguous. *facedesk* That feat isn't even remotely ambiguous. Like, you can actually see Dark Energy coming out of his gauntlet as he breaks it Edited August 27, 2015 by Selenial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Oh really? Hey Ant why not come on over and share you're thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) *facedesk* That feat isn't even remotely ambiguous. Like, you can actually see Dark Energy coming out of his gauntlet as he breaks it I interpreted that as coming out of the holocron... I mean he breaks it with the other hand bro. That and the holocron is already breaking before his hands start glowing. EDIT: Though still, the lack of an indicator "i.e. Kun draws on such and such" more implies it was non-assisted IMO. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Obvious strawman? Fraid not. I explained quite extensively why taking Revan's feats at face value means Revan > Luke. Prove otherwise, and provide an alternate explanation for Revan's increment in power, and I'll consider making that allowance. P.S. I will also note that Revan was fighting for his life/plans and lost, not drawing on the Yavin 4 would be foolish. So you're still just assuming that Revan drew on the nexus without real proof for it, yet you demand proof for Kun? And this based on an obvious strawman (Yes it is a strawman, since you are creating a sham argument) intended to diminish the feat? This is a pretty unfair double standard on your part, and I honestly don't really want to participate further until you resolve it. Either include or exclude the nexus feats for both. We've been waiting on Aurbere for since the get go, I think he's waiting for DarthAnt to resubscribe. Fascinating. No thanks. I can deal with you myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) So you're still just assuming that Revan drew on the nexus without real proof for it, yet you demand proof for Kun? And this based on an obvious strawman (Yes it is a strawman, since you are creating a sham argument) intended to diminish the feat? This is a pretty unfair double standard on your part, and I honestly don't really want to participate further until you resolve it. Either include or exclude the nexus feats for both.No proof? Sham argument? If that's the case then it should be easy to debunk, so put you're money where you're mouth is, as opposed to making in so far baseless accusations. You can't expect me to concede to that.Fascinating. No thanks. I can deal with you myself. Edited August 27, 2015 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cs_zoltan Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 EDIT: too early. I've seen it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcheseAMM Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) Little has to be said here. Aurbere is my personal apprentice and an *extension of my will. He will take care of the nonbelievers. Edited August 27, 2015 by MarcheseAMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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