The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Jarons]

Guys Valkorion is

 

Darth Jadus twin brother Darth Hadus

 

[ShadowMudkip]

Thanks for the spoiler tags. Not sarcasm.

 

Did u read mine?

[cs_zoltan]

Did u read mine?

 

No, that's why I thanked you for using them

[cs_zoltan]

I wasn't aware that Kun only had four feats...

No he doesn't, but those were the most discussed feats. So in response to your mini comparison:

In terms of Control, Kun has demonstrated just as incredible Force augmentative abilities as they have:

1. Snapping Vodo's staff in half twice over, despite it being supposedly stronger than a lightsaber.
   
2. Cutting through a solid wall of Mandalorian iron, despite in being near-indestructible.
   

 

As well as comparable endurance, surviving and remaining conscious after having tonnes of rubble dropped on him that shattered his bones in hundreds of places, before embracing the dark side and while cut off from the light.

The mando iron feat is amped, the endurance is nice but he would've died without Nadd. Vodo's staff is a good feat though.

 

In terms of Sense, Kun appears just if not more far reaching in his clairvoyance, sensing Nadd reaching out and communicating with the Keto's, whose Sith magic his is later able to sense and trace to Empress Teta.

So his sense has galactic reach? Nice, so does Vader's and Starkiller's. But they also have potent visions.

And finally in terms of Alter, Kun has demonstrated very potent offensive ability, capable of:

1. Killing Odan-Urr with a Force wound attack, an aged but nonetheless powerful Jedi Master.
   
2. Rendering Aleema Keto unconscious with a casual Force blast, and on a nexus, destroying large portions of the Massassi Temple, and incinerating a giant Sith Wyrm.
   
3. Using Sith Sorcery, paralysing thousands of senators and mentally dominating the Chancellor.
   

 

Kun has matched if not surpassed any Force barriers Starkiller and Vader have penetrated, and any Force users they have dominated in general, but it remains a fact that aside from his paralysis feat, he doesn't really have any big, destructive showings of magnitude, bar what he was only able to achieve on a dark side nexus.

Odan-Urr was post prime, however powerful he once was. Also Vader could crush the heart of jedi.

Aleema Keto is powerful, but not that powerful. And Kun used sorcery, Starkiller subdued Vader with lightning.

I don't really care much about what he has done on a nexus or with sorcery tbh.

What barrier feat? I think Sel had something to say about that.

[Selenial]

It allows him to unleash his inner rage into concentrated blasts, source for the rest of what you posted or are you just going to continuously sh*t on Kun?

 

Your fervant anti-Nomi bias seems to be creeping up here to, do you simply not like TotJ?

This one's my favourite:

 

"The Sith developed talismans of concentration to help them focus during long, elaborate rites, those typically associated with the tapping of vast amounts of dark side power. The talisman allowed the sorcerer to concentrate all of his will to the creation of the desired effect, temporarily increasing his ability to manipulate the Force. Unfortunately, use of such a device often caused the wielder to succumb to exhaustion the moment his Force effect was completed."

 

Ah so it's bias to slightly disagree with something you say.

 

Please, forgive me.

[Selenial]

What barrier feat? I think Sel had something to say about that.

 

I have many, many things to say about that feat.

 

For one, it's not a force barrier, people say it is to baselessly hype Kun. He's simply shown walking through an area being bombarded, no Force Barrier is shown or even hinted at. Every other Barrier in the TOTJ series and in the Legacy series is shown in exactly the same way, Kun's shown nothing.

 

Even then, I question why I should give a flying **** if he did absorb it. A no name Sith utilized Ludo Kresh's amulet to tank a turbolaser blast, why is Kun doing it even that impressive?

 

Edit: Here's the feat, so you can all laugh with me. http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/NaiFohl/media/Exar%20Kun/Kun_force.jpg.html

 

Dat bomb 200m away too stronk doe. Kun obvs deflecting like pro m8 get on his lvl plox.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Selenial

[Rhyltran]

This one's my favourite:

 

"The Sith developed talismans of concentration to help them focus during long, elaborate rites, those typically associated with the tapping of vast amounts of dark side power. The talisman allowed the sorcerer to concentrate all of his will to the creation of the desired effect, temporarily increasing his ability to manipulate the Force. Unfortunately, use of such a device often caused the wielder to succumb to exhaustion the moment his Force effect was completed."

 

Ah so it's bias to slightly disagree with something you say.

 

Please, forgive me.

 

You missed "Temporarily"

 

And "When sing such a device often caused the wielder to succumb to exhaustion the moment this force effect was completed."

 

This implies you have to A) Actively draw upon it (which means it's not a constant AMP)

B) People who use it to amplify their force often succumb to exhaustion. So even those that don't succumb to it are typically severely weakened.

 

Can you show me the panels that state Kun is A) Constantly using the amulet non-stop to do every force feat he's ever had?

 

B) Where he's succumbing to exhaustion from using an amulet to enable him to use power beyond his ability?

[Selenial]

Lol.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428561-9673725373-hUvqm.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428562-5900982883-pq4MF.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428563-2739414806-1UQVZ.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428564-1834668862-wapKS.jpg

[Selenial]

You missed "Temporarily"

 

And "When sing such a device often caused the wielder to succumb to exhaustion the moment this force effect was completed."

 

This implies you have to A) Actively draw upon it (which means it's not a constant AMP)

B) People who use it to amplify their force often succumb to exhaustion. So even those that don't succumb to it are typically severely weakened.

 

Can you show me the panels that state Kun is A) Constantly using the amulet non-stop to do every force feat he's ever had?

 

B) Where he's succumbing to exhaustion from using an amulet to enable him to use power beyond his ability?

 

The word temporarily is irrelevant. The fact is he'd be focusing during every Force Feat he's ever accomplished, which means the amulet would aid him in that regard. It's pretty simple.

 

And if you could show me where that quote says "always", I'd appreciate it. Unfortunately, it doesn't. Kun's obviously a powerful force wielder, and thus wouldn't receive the exhaustion that lesser force users have. The fact he wasn't exhausted after using Energy Blasts shows he's not really affected by it.

[cs_zoltan]

Edit: Here's the feat, so you can all laugh with me. http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/NaiFohl/media/Exar%20Kun/Kun_force.jpg.html

 

Dat bomb 200m away too stronk doe. Kun obvs deflecting like pro m8 get on his lvl plox.

 

http://i.memeful.com/media/post/3M2aPw2_700wa_0.gif

[Rhyltran]

Lol.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428561-9673725373-hUvqm.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428562-5900982883-pq4MF.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428563-2739414806-1UQVZ.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/4428564-1834668862-wapKS.jpg

 

I was asking about Kun.

 

The word temporarily is irrelevant. The fact is he'd be focusing during every Force Feat he's ever accomplished, which means the amulet would aid him in that regard. It's pretty simple.

 

And if you could show me where that quote says "always", I'd appreciate it. Unfortunately, it doesn't. Kun's obviously a powerful force wielder, and thus wouldn't receive the exhaustion that lesser force users have. The fact he wasn't exhausted after using Energy Blasts shows he's not really affected by it.

 

So it's a feat then that it doesn't effect him like it does just about anyone else using it? There's only one reason why it exhausts most force users. It's because they're using power beyond their abilities and when someone in star wars uses any power beyond their abilities, whether it's oneness or anything else it usually has some effect. Such as exhaustion and even death in some cases. The reason it doesn't adversely effect Kun is because he's not using something that is too far beyond his power. This leads me to believe that most of what he does is using at the very least a majority of his own power.

 

So using that kind of energy is no big deal to him due to him being that powerful.

 

I'll concede to miss remembering the bomb panel and won't bring it up again.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Selenial]

I was asking about Kun.[/Quote]

I wasn't replying to you?

 

 

So it's a feat then that it doesn't effect him like it does just about anyone else using it? There's only one reason why it exhausts most force users. It's because they're using power beyond their abilities and when someone in star wars uses any power beyond their abilities, whether it's oneness or anything else it usually has some effect. Such as exhaustion and even death in some cases. The reason it doesn't adversely effect Kun is because he's not using something that is too far beyond his power. This leads me to believe that most of what he does is using at the very least a majority of his own power.

 

So using that kind of energy is no big deal to him due to him being that powerful.

 

I'll concede to miss remembering the bomb panel and won't bring it up again.

 

Indeed, he's obviously not massively exerting himself, but the fact is, the amp was there. You don't actually seem to be disagreeing with me. It's obviously an amp, he obviously wasn't exerting himself to the levels that someone would in a moment of oneness.

 

But my question is why is he being considered an equal to people whose feats he only replicates while amped?

[cs_zoltan]

Beni don't get angry, but I'm gona quote you again

 

Based on feats Vader > Kun:

 

So, my personal comparison of Darth Vader and Exar Kun.

 

In regards to Control

 

1. Exar Kun has demonstrated incredible physical strength and endurance

 

 

Kun's physical blows possessed the strength to break Baas' Force imbued staff in half - one stronger than a lightsaber, and smash down a wall of Mandalorian iron. He has smashed a holocron with his bare hands, and has survived having tons of rubble drooped him, that broke his bones in hundreds of places, despite being pratically cut off from the Force.

 

These are impressive feats, however they have capably matched by Vader's showings. Vader who has willed himself back from the brink of death, only to continue fighting, who has survived being buried alive under a cathedral of rubble for days without a breath mask, sustained solely by the dark side, who has tanked explosions at point-blank range.

 

And in regards to physical strength Vader has comparable feats as well, straight after recovering from the brink of death he shatters the crystalline pillar he has been tied to, he has torn away durasteel doors, and completely crushed the helmet and skull of a Stormtrooper, and could support the weight of a dozen men.

 

Therefore overall I would declare Vader Kun's equal in terms of strength and endurance.

2. Exar Kun has demonstrated mastery over essence transfer, capable of preserving his spirit for thousands of years.

Exar Kun's mastery over his spirit is profound, but not unprecedented, and ritual assisted. Kun was only capable of transforming into a potent spirit through the borrowed strength of thousands of Massassi, it is impressive however that despite his powers being depleted, he was still able to interact potently with the physical world.

 

However the act of retaining spiritual form millenia after death is not unprecedented, and replicated by countless other lesser Sith Lords, nor is the ability to act on the enviroment, especially in the presence of a dark side nexus and focal point of dark energy. Aloysius Kallig for example ragdolled Nox, and many in the Temple were possessed and manipulated by other Dark Lords. Vader possesses the strength to replicate these feats.

3. Kun has projected powerful Force barriers capable of absorbing the impact of bombing runs

This is an incredibly impressive feat, but not one I believe Vader incapable of replicating. Vader was a master of tutanimis capable of reflecting the combined firepower of hundreds of shooters at once. We have also seen the likes of Jacen Solo, before his prime, and Nomi Sunrider with the help of three other Jedi Knights projected a similar barrier. Both of whom I believe Vader surpasses in power.

Altogether I declare Vader an equal master of Control to Exar Kun.

 

In regards to Sense

 

1. Kun was capable of reaching out and sensing other powerful users of Sith Magic from across the galaxy

This is an impressive feat, however Vader has shown similar reach in his ability to project his thoughts over "vast distances", sense the conflict in his apprentice - Galen Marek - over holocall despite being lightyears away and finally through a ritual connection of sorts project potent illusions into Luke Skywalker's mind.

Personally I would not feel confident giving either an edge in this category, as they have both shown galactic reach.

 

In regards to Alter

 

1. Exar Kun possessed potent TK abilities, able to kill Odan Urr with a Force crush and blast away Jedi

I feel Vader has matched these feats through his ability to choke, ragdoll and freeze Jedi Knights and even Masters with ease, and even his apprentice Starkiller. Noting that Odan Urr with his dying words describes himself as "too old", indicating he had lost much of his strength.

2. Exar Kun has demonstrated incredible destructive power via his mastery over the Force Blast

Perhaps Exar Kun's most powerful ability, however it is heavily reliant on the powers of Sith Magic. Kun's most impressive feats involving vaporising Massassi and killing a Sith Wyrm took place on Yavin 4, a DS nexus, within one of the temples designed to focus these energies. Whereas on Koros Major, he is only capable of knocking Aleema unconscious. Aleema who failed to erect a barrier and is a mere Force adept, she was unscathed.

 

The destructive power of the Force blast was also one very much reliant on its nature, recall Darth Bane's inability to defend himself against Zannah's dark side tendrils, and here we have Keto, a mere adept, blasting someone into dust. The point being that it would be easy for a powerful Force User, such as Vader, to accomplish Exar Kun's levels of destructive power, I therefore do not believe it proof of Kun's superiority.

3. Exar Kun had demonstrated potent mental manipulation, manipulating the minds of thousands at once

I have reached the conclusion that Kun did not paraylse the Senate, but took control of their minds.

 

This is due to the manner in which its described:

 

Before the whole assembly, the new Dark Lord of the Sith used his powers to hypnotize the observers...

 

--Taken from the New Essential Chronology

 

It is also described as a "Sith Spell", which leads me to believe it was Qâzoi Kyantuska, something the Wookiee agrees upon. And as we all know this was a feat that even adepts were capable of. Keto has used it to take control of the pilots of countless chaos fighters, turning them it kamikaze pilots, and an adept known as Cartariun used it to fashion an army of sapient creatures. I therefore feel this is a product of knowledge over power, and that if Vader possessed the necessary knowledge and innate talent for Sith magic, he could replicate it.

 

On the other hand, Vader, unassisted by ritual, was able to project fear into the minds of his soldiers in a form of battle meditation, and instill fear in the minds of Force sensitives with his mere presence. Vader was also able to influence Luke's mind on Bespin and use Drain Knowledge on him in their final duel, despite being master level.

Admittedly Exar Kun's abilities are impressive, and they put him on level with Vader in some respects, however they are largely the results of Sith Magic as opposed to raw power, and Vader has demonstrated in most cases to be able to replicate or at the very least rival his feats with raw power alone. I would therefore give Vader a minor edge.

 

Overall I feel it goes to Vader, though I do not believe that gap is large. Really I feel the reason is that Exar Kun fails to surpass Vader in anyway, whereas Vader holds his ground well, and surpasses Kun in a few small ways. We should also account for the fact that Vader was always growing in strength, and all the listed feats are before his prime.

 

And also that comparsion is missing the new canon Vader feats, as well as his vision. Not to mention that some of the Kun feats were amped one way or another.

 

Now right now you want to place Kun above Vader based on hype, but I think it's inaccurate, because of this:

 

Kun spent his time as a spirit advancing his power and skill. There's nothing to really suggest Muur didn't advance, probably the opposite.

 

And while I think it's possible Muur > Vader, the majority of it is character statements. I also don't agree with the quotes Beni selected. For example, Muur being Vader's new master could refer to the fact Vader would need Muur's power in addition to his own to maintain control, and thus needs him. The second quote merely indicates that Muur's power in addition to her own could challenge Vader, not that Muur alone surpasses him.

 

 

So yeah, that's my reasoning for Vader > Kun.

[Beniboybling]

The mando iron feat is amped

Already covered.

the endurance is nice but he would've died without Nadd

Because he was cut off from the Force.

 

Considering that, again Kun surpassed Nadd he'd easily be able to heal himself upon becoming a Sith Lord.

So his sense has galactic reach? Nice, so does Vader's and Starkiller's. But they also have potent visions.

I'm only arguing parity here, and yes they do but we have nothing to compare it with.

Odan-Urr was post prime, however powerful he once was. Also Vader could crush the heart of jedi.

Aleema Keto is powerful, but not that powerful. And Kun used sorcery, Starkiller subdued Vader with lightning.

What barrier feat? I think Sel had something to say about that.

If you've got evidence that suggests anyone Vader and Starkiller have dominated are more powerful than an aged Odan-Urr, please provide it.

I don't really care much about what he has done on a nexus or with sorcery tbh.

That's really not my concern, it's been pretty extensively explained why paralysing a thousands of individuals with no prep is impressive, and it wasn't on a nexus, Coruscant is neutral ground.

What barrier feat? I think Sel had something to say about that.

Barriers as against TK attacks silly.

 

Altogether I think my points stands, I'm not seeing any feats that justify putting Vader/Starkiller (or Revan) above Kun.

[ShadowMudkip]

So are we just discussing Vader and Kun for #9? Cases haven't been made for Revan, and I don't think SK can even make the list tbh.

[cs_zoltan]

So are we just discussing Vader and Kun for #9? Cases haven't been made for Revan, and I don't think SK can even make the list tbh.

 

Well I'm arguing Vader over Kun, because SK > Vader...

[ShadowMudkip]

Well I'm arguing Vader over Kun, because SK > Vader...

 

If you believe that SK>Vader, then why don't you argue SK>Kun instead of Vader>Kun?????

[cs_zoltan]

If you believe that SK>Vader, then why don't you argue SK>Kun instead of Vader>Kun?????

 

Because both are true, and Vader > Kun consequently means SK > Kun.

[Rhyltran]

I wasn't replying to you?

 

 

 

 

Indeed, he's obviously not massively exerting himself, but the fact is, the amp was there. You don't actually seem to be disagreeing with me. It's obviously an amp, he obviously wasn't exerting himself to the levels that someone would in a moment of oneness.

 

But my question is why is he being considered an equal to people whose feats he only replicates while amped?

 

It's mostly because it's debated how much he was amped during those feats and many didn't state he was amped. Not only that but he's attributed for Yavin 4 being one of the greatest dark side nexues the galaxy has never seen. Now maybe I'm wrong but as far as I'm aware Vader has never influenced a location so severely. I mean, I know his own fortress was a dark side nexus but not to the effect that Exar Kun caused Yavin 4 to be.

 

Then there's him freezing thousands of galactic beings which is impressive whether he used magic or not. Honestly, I'll admit that I don't think him to be "Beyond Vader by far." I think the two are actually very close. Personally if everyone decides Vader makes 9 instead of Kun I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Rhyltran

[ShadowMudkip]

I personally don't think that SK> Vader, SK is more Revan level imo.

[Aurbere]

I personally don't think that SK> Vader, SK is more Revan level imo.

 

Bit of a contradiction there, don't you think?

[tunewalker]

Bit of a contradiction there, don't you think?

 

I didnt see any, looked spot on to me.

[cs_zoltan]

If you've got evidence that suggests anyone Vader and Starkiller have dominated are more powerful than an aged Odan-Urr, please provide it.

 

"Outside his droid golem shell, however, Paratus was more vulnerable to Sith lightning. What he couldn't absorb into the junk metal burned him and left him writhing in pain. The apprentice sent bolt after bolt hurtling into the tiny figure. It almost seemed that the fight would be over before it had really begun.

 

Then something struck him from behind, breaking his concentration and knocking his lightsaber from his hand. He turned, ducking robotic limbs and a sudden swipe from the light-pike. The mannequin of Plo Koon had risen from its chair and attacked him, holding a vibroblade in a crude approximation of the long-dead."

 

Pre-prime Galen Marek could've one shotted Paratus if not for the trash council.

 

And obviously he wasn't a pushover:

 

""Kazdan Paratus is far more powerful than you," the black-masked figure said, filling her with apprehension. "I do not expect you to survive. But should you succeed, you will be one step closer to your destiny.""

 

Before TFU Galen was already more powerful than most knights from the golden age of the jedi:

 

Vader's apprentice was both strong in the Force and incredibly aggressive. As a teenager, the apprentice was already more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars, and it was only Darth Vader's incredible power and skill that allowed him to defeat the boy in combat.

[ShadowMudkip]

Bit of a contradiction there, don't you think?

 

This is just my opinion, so don't grill me for it, but the way I see it is.

 

Vader>Kun>SK=Revan.

 

Granted the difference is small, but still there.

[Beniboybling]

Beni don't get angry, but I'm gona quote you again

 

Based on feats Vader > Kun:

 

 

 

And also that comparsion is missing the new canon Vader feats, as well as his vision. Not to mention that some of the Kun feats were amped one way or another.

Based on feats alone? Sure the conclusion can be reached that Vader > Kun. But it's far from concrete, and certainly leaves room for a case being made to the contrary, I think Kun's accolades makes that case. I certainly don't believe Vader and Starkillers superiority in feats is so indisputable it can't be challenged by something else.

 

Also note turns out Cartariun was actually empowered by some nexus of some sort, for whatever it's worth.

Now right now you want to place Kun above Vader based on hype, but I think it's inaccurate, because of this:

Strange, thought I responded to that, but it seems to have got lost in the interweb.

 

Let me try it again. First off I agree with Sel that Muur likely advanced in power, but I feel that is negated by the fact that Muur isn't even the most powerful Ancient Sith lord that Kun in turn, is more powerful than. Even if we assume Muur more powerful, the significant disparity already existing between him and Kun makes up for it.

 

Now for the quotes. Simply put while possible, I find these interpretations incredibly strained.

 

It's obvious that Vader needed Muur to secure power, but the reverse is true as well, they needed each other, as all Master and Apprentices throughout the Banite line did. Point is though Muur is the one taking on the Master role, which makes it clear that Vader needs him more than Muur needs Vader, else the roles would be reversed.

 

That and the Master/Apprentice positions within Sith hierachy typically if not without exception, correspond to the power of the individuals, the strong rule, Muur is doing the ruling, therefore Muur is stronger, it's that simple really.

 

Secondly, while yes in practice, Morne was adding Muur's power to here own, the implications of the quote stand. Morne doesn't have the strength to defeat Vader, but Muur does, ergo Muur is stronger than Vader. If Muur needed Morne's strength to defeat Vader, the quote would have implied that together they had the strength to defeat him, it doesn't, regardless of what practically had to occur with Muur using Morne as a vessel.

 

In that respect I don't believe the quotes are ambiguous at all, they make it pretty clear that Muur > Vader.