Neoforcer Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This is a new topic full of studies trolls and saber oh my. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 A troll is someone who posts exaggerated, provocative, insulting, often contradictory, half-true, or untrue, etc, comments specifically to draw reactions and stoke the fires. "Troll" as a noun is worked backwards from "trolling", which was originally inspired by the fishing practice of throwing baited hooks in the water and then slowly pulling them along until something took the bait... Your "must respond to everything" comment has nothing to do with what actually makes a person a troll. Not that this should surprise anyone, people have been accusing random others of "trolling" for all sorts of irrelevant reasons almost since someone first used the word "troll" -- usually, someone who persistent disagrees with their positions and won't accept their opinions as "facts". Just an FYI, most people consider trolls to be bad, so it doesn't surprise me when people call anybody doing something they consider bad a troll. Not saying it's right, just saying I'm not surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiVaN_ Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) You might be right. I can not control how it sounds to others...they will take my comments as they will. My prose clearly demonstrates that I am speculating based on my own personal opinions. I am not going to avoid expressing my opinion because some folks take issue with it...that would be silly. My opinions are formed by my experiences, like anyone....the difference is my experiences include market studies. Folks are more then welcome to read the same studies and come to their own conclusions....and often do. But to claim opinions based on arbitrary assumptions are more relevant than ones based on actual studies is a foolish contention to make IMO. They are both equally relevant. ...to mean they are both irrelevant. You present your opinions as, not just facts, but as undisputable facts. Unless you have the numbers and data to back up your claims you cannot speak in absolutes. By your own admittance you are a casual player, not a raider and not a pvper. You see casual players in your casual world and not many that travel in your circles are end-game raiders. I am a raider and a casual PvPer, 90% of the people in my guild are raiders, not all progression raiders mind you, but they still participate in 2 or 3 raids a week. We have 4 progression teams 3 Pub Side and 1 Imp side with only 3 people carried over from Pub to Imp. We have an 80 person guild with about 5 people who don't raid at all. If I turned my assumptions based on experience into personal facts to be discussed on the forums then I would say, without a doubt, the vast majority of folks in SWTOR are raiders. However I know that isn't true and I know that we have recruited, heavily, in the raiding population. I am able to see and think outside my bubble, the sphere of influence that I travel in doesn't limit my ability to see different angles. It does however, appear that you are allowing your personal experience to bring you to conclusions that you think are factual when in actuality they are skewed assumptions based on the Silo of personal experience you find yourself in. Enlightenment is being able to think outside yourself and outside of that which influences you. I would say that based on the statements you've made, not just in this thread, but in others as well, that , in the absence of facts you tend to project your personal op, based on your sphere of influence as undeniable facts. Probably because you work in market research and feel that you can make accurate assumptions based on what you see in game. I would argue that because you don't involve yourself in all aspects of the game your data is incomplete and therefore your assumptions are inaccurate. One cannot perform research on a subject when absolutely no tangible data has been given. Until Bioware actually releases figures all anyone can do is speculate. You believe that the majority of players are casuals, PvPers feel that almost everyone engages in PvP at some point. End Game Raiders feel that everyone is looking to get into Ops and FP's. Everyone makes assumptions based on their experiences. I make my own assumptions as well, but I know that until BW releases hard numbers it is all just a shot in the dark. Anyone attempting to pass off an assumption as a fact is shooting themselves in the foot, I don't care what your experience in game, personally or professionally are. A study from 2009 and another from 2012 are so outdated that even a college marketing student should be able to tell you that they would have almost no bearing on a videogame in 2015. The most in depth study that you linked is the 2009 study that is nearly 6 years old and based on PvP. This has no bearing on End Game raiding. Besides markets change in less than 6 years. Edited January 20, 2015 by RiVaN_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fushnchips Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 You might be right. I can not control how it sounds to others...they will take my comments as they will. My prose clearly demonstrates that I am speculating based on my own personal opinions. I am not going to avoid expressing my opinion because some folks take issue with it...that would be silly. My opinions are formed by my experiences, like anyone....the difference is my experiences include market studies. Folks are more then welcome to read the same studies and come to their own conclusions....and often do. But to claim opinions based on arbitrary assumptions are more relevant than ones based on actual studies is a foolish contention to make IMO. They are both equally relevant. ...to mean they are both irrelevant. You are still going on maybe it's time to pack your bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) LOL..... so this thread has completely devolved into a gank LordArtemis thread. The way some of you are carrying on, it makes is sound like LA pissed in your Cheerios IRL or something. They need to start the actions on the exploiters right now.. so people can go back to the actual chew-toy that is the thread topic. Edited January 20, 2015 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 They need to start the actions on the exploiters right now.. so people can go back to the actual chew-toy that is the thread topic. Word on the grapevine is that the sanctions have already been imposed. Of course, BioWare may not ever confirm that. How many weeks before we all just assume they have, and move on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fushnchips Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 LOL..... so this thread has completely devolved into a gank LordArtemis thread. The way some of you are carrying on, it makes is sound like LA pissed in your Cheerios IRL or something. They need to start the actions on the exploiters right now.. so people can go back to the actual chew-toy that is the thread topic. They have already taken the Action on them people were banned. What players we will never know because Bioware can't disclose anything. But i'll leave LordArtmis and his RP forum posting alone unless he still continues on with his deluded data posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) You present your opinions as, not just facts, but as undisputable facts. Unless you have the numbers and data to back up your claims you cannot speak in absolutes. By your own admittance you are a casual player, not a raider and not a pvper. You see casual players in your casual world and not many that travel in your circles are end-game raiders. I am a raider and a casual PvPer, 90% of the people in my guild are raiders, not all progression raiders mind you, but they still participate in 2 or 3 raids a week. We have 4 progression teams 3 Pub Side and 1 Imp side with only 3 people carried over from Pub to Imp. We have an 80 person guild with about 5 people who don't raid at all. If I turned my assumptions based on experience into personal facts to be discussed on the forums then I would say, without a doubt, the vast majority of folks in SWTOR are raiders. However I know that isn't true and I know that we have recruited, heavily, in the raiding population. I am able to see and think outside my bubble, the sphere of influence that I travel in doesn't limit my ability to see different angles. It does however, appear that you are allowing your personal experience to bring you to conclusions that you think are factual when in actuality they are skewed assumptions based on the Silo of personal experience you find yourself in. Enlightenment is being able to think outside yourself and outside of that which influences you. I would say that based on the statements you've made, not just in this thread, but in others as well, that , in the absence of facts you tend to project your personal op, based on your sphere of influence as undeniable facts. Probably because you work in market research and feel that you can make accurate assumptions based on what you see in game. I would argue that because you don't involve yourself in all aspects of the game your data is incomplete and therefore your assumptions are inaccurate. One cannot perform research on a subject when absolutely no tangible data has been given. Until Bioware actually releases figures all anyone can do is speculate. You believe that the majority of players are casuals, PvPers feel that almost everyone engages in PvP at some point. End Game Raiders feel that everyone is looking to get into Ops and FP's. Everyone makes assumptions based on their experiences. I make my own assumptions as well, but I know that until BW releases hard numbers it is all just a shot in the dark. Anyone attempting to pass off an assumption as a fact is shooting themselves in the foot, I don't care what your experience in game, personally or professionally are. A study from 2009 and another from 2012 are so outdated that even a college marketing student should be able to tell you that they would have almost no bearing on a videogame in 2015. The most in depth study that you linked is the 2009 study that is nearly 6 years old. Markets change in less time than that. QFT. In 2008, if one wanted to raid current tier content in WoW, one most likely had to be part of a guild, had to have done long grinds to have access to the raid zones, could only run with people from their server, only in 25 man format, and only on one difficulty. And at the time, WoW was one of, if not the most accessible game, the few other titles around were even more demanding on time and effort to participate in raiding. In 2009 WoW launched Wrath of the Lich King, and began a process that continues to this day with creating content with broader appeal and accessibility. During that expansion, they introduced multiple raid sizes, multiple difficulties, removed requirements to grind out the privilege to access raid zone, introduced group finder features, and made gearing more accessible for all. Fast forward to today, there are a lot more choices for games including SWTOR. Most offer multiple size raids, multiple difficulty settings, have alternative gearing paths, do not require long grinds to access, and have features like cross server or queue systems to help groups form. The few that try to cling to the pre-2009 ways and make everything a long and difficult process, with very hard content only accessible to a small minority, seem to fail or fast become very small niche games (e.g. Wildstar). To claim that one knows the state of raiding today and / or to make claims as to the types of players who raid based on studies published in 2009 would be like making investment decisions today based on market research published in 2009. Edited January 20, 2015 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZETA_SCORPII Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 LOL..... so this thread has completely devolved into a gank LordArtemis thread. The way some of you are carrying on, it makes is sound like LA pissed in your Cheerios IRL or something. They need to start the actions on the exploiters right now.. so people can go back to the actual chew-toy that is the thread topic. He pissed in his own Cheerios based on a 1954 fad diet market research study on weight loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardimuer Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 the nda specifies what the confidential information is that cannot be disclosed. much of what was protected is now no longer confidential. for example...the final revan fight. I'd be very interested in reading the NDA. but again a large part of what was confidential is now open and public. You are right, things that have now become part of the live game are no longer confidential. However, here are the kinds of information that the beta testers would never be allowed to say (according to clarification posted by the devs): - "Someone posted A on the closed test forums." ---(The entire content of the test forums is confidential, and will never be released from NDA.) - "The devs told us their plans for Z during beta." ---(Anything the devs said in the beta forums is also confidential.) - "B was on the closed test server and will be released in a future patch that we haven't seen yet." ---(Beta testers are not allowed to talk about any game features that have not gone live yet.) - "X was glitched during beta." - "Class Y was OP during beta until it was nerfed." ---(Anything that happened during beta that did not go live is confidential.) For example, some people posted info about the Ancient Threat and the Ancient Tome on Tatooine before it was released in the most recent patch. Those posts were deleted by the devs because they broke the NDA from the closed beta. The full text of the NDA is no longer available online because the beta period has ended. However, there are some parts of it that most people have forgotten/choose to ignore. One of the most commonly broken rules: according to the final paragraphs people are not even supposed to say that they were part of the beta - that too falls under the NDA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jandi Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Word on the grapevine is that the sanctions have already been imposed. Of course, BioWare may not ever confirm that. How many weeks before we all just assume they have, and move on? Never. People will assume they never did because there wasn't a news post about it, confirming it and the threads will keep popping up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojomagro Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I personally think it's arrogance to suggest that end game raiders are such a small relative number that the game won't notice. What the Vitch Hunters don't realize is that the $6,500,000 to $8,000,000 from gross subscription revenue is what helps pays for popcorn Wednesdays in Austin or the free breakfasts for staff. People question the dev response has issues right now. Just think if Musco can't get his serving of crabmeat and 24k gold flake topped eggs Benedict tomorrow. I love all your posts btw, breaks up the droning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagy Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 You are right, things that have now become part of the live game are no longer confidential. However, here are the kinds of information that the beta testers would never be allowed to say (according to clarification posted by the devs): - "Someone posted A on the closed test forums." ---(The entire content of the test forums is confidential, and will never be released from NDA.) - "The devs told us their plans for Z during beta." ---(Anything the devs said in the beta forums is also confidential.) - "B was on the closed test server and will be released in a future patch that we haven't seen yet." ---(Beta testers are not allowed to talk about any game features that have not gone live yet.) - "X was glitched during beta." - "Class Y was OP during beta until it was nerfed." ---(Anything that happened during beta that did not go live is confidential.) For example, some people posted info about the Ancient Threat and the Ancient Tome on Tatooine before it was released in the most recent patch. Those posts were deleted by the devs because they broke the NDA from the closed beta. The full text of the NDA is no longer available online because the beta period has ended. However, there are some parts of it that most people have forgotten/choose to ignore. One of the most commonly broken rules: according to the final paragraphs people are not even supposed to say that they were part of the beta - that too falls under the NDA.all true once someone leaked the "ravagers bug reported in testing" information, assuming its true, the information ceased to be confidential. person who leaked that assumingly broke the nda. you bring up an interesting point tho that they aren't supposed to admit they were in beta. i would assume this protects bw from them discussing now publicly known non-confidential information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 They have already taken the Action on them people were banned. What players we will never know because Bioware can't disclose anything. But i'll leave LordArtmis and his RP forum posting alone unless he still continues on with his deluded data posts. Source on that would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fushnchips Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Source on that would be? You shouldn't be worrying about that just focus on playing SWTOR and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 You shouldn't be worrying about that just focus on playing SWTOR and leave it at that. But but i like reading stuff about people sorrows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xFREYx Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Word on the grapevine is that the sanctions have already been imposed. Of course, BioWare may not ever confirm that. How many weeks before we all just assume they have, and move on? Just out of curiosity which grapevine did you hear this on? I'll be very shocked if BW dont post an update later stating that they have done something to the exploiters, just to make a point of what happens to you when you exploit on their turf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgenBlue Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well it's been a week. What's going down Musco? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well it's been a week. What's going down Musco? BW will not tell you that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danery Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yea.. this isnt about making sure exploiters are punished. Its about everyone who wants the exploiters punished to be able to know exactly what happened so they can take pleasure in the misfortune of others, gleefully rejoicing at their expense. If you have ever reported players for misbehavior you would know that it is a violation of Bioware policy to disclose what punishments are issued and/or whether any punishment was actually issued except to the individual being punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgenBlue Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 BW will not tell you that In the last community stream Musco said he would post what they are doing about it but wouldn't give out any specific numbers for bans or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fushnchips Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This thread should be locked and closed now before the RP crowd start posting again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Source on that would be? Johnny wishbone from the isle of St Troi...he used da tarot cards mon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksilvante Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Johnny wishbone from the isle of St Troi...he used da tarot cards mon Oh gods my sides....thank you kindly for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 That's awesome.. had to chuckle as well. Since Ms. Cleo is no longer in business... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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