PVE: Melee is massively trumped by Ranged.

[Karkais]

The issue is, and has always been with MMOs, that without changing range dps basic skillsets you cannot effectively 'punish' them like you can melee. If a melee moves out of their designed engagement area they lose dps; but ranged can be anywhere between 30m and 0m of the boss and still do full dps.

 

The only way to change it would be to make some/helf of a ranged dps abilities have a 30 max/15 min meter range. Then you could effectively add mechanics that target people outside of 10 meters, causing ranged to break dps to avoid it. Right now if you added those mechanics ranged can just clump into melee and negate them (IE Calph and Droid last tier) without suffering any penalty.

 

The way it could be done was to have ranged abilities unable to perform while in movement, and then have boss mechanics that force players to move. However, Bioware did the exact opposite lately by allowing more abilities to be perform while moving. This is obviously a major boon for ranged characters.

 

They did say their target DPS numbers for melees are higher than for ranges, but unfortunately, the classes are far away from hitting the target mark. Maybe with 3.1, they'll be able to fix the imbalances and melees can make up for bad mechanics with higher DPS, who knows.

I don't really see how they can design an interesting mechanic that's not challenging to melees. Anything other than a tank and spank boss requires movement of the group, and if the boss moves around, melees are affected the most.

 

Then you have poor imagination. It has already been done in this very same game before. How about not restricting boss attacks to melee but rather a random area so it affects all characters equally no matter how far they are from the boss (like first boss of EV). Or have boss target random characters regardless of their range? It is rather short-sighted saying it can't be done. It has already been done, devs are just leaning away from it. That is a design decision (and hopefully not shortsightedness on devs part)

Edited January 10, 2015 by Karkais

[rsuhandy]

Looks like a couple of parses got thrown up after this thread was written on there. Torparse has been removing/adding stuff log wise. It's been strange. The issue is if we [using Torpase] look at the top parses. There were a few in another language, and a few that also had no data in them once I clicked, but these are the numbers I counted:

 

24 Mercenaries.

10 Snipers.

4 Sorcerers.

5 Powertechs

4 Marauders

1 Operative.

 

So we have a total of 38 Ranged on the board vs 10 Melee. I hope that Torparse gets its class sorting soon. It seems that this ratio between the two is fairly close to 1 Melee to every 3 Ranged DPS in an Operations Group. If this is true, it might be probably that the trend would continue downwards from the top 50.

 

Also, I still stand by the fact that Marauders/Operatives/Powertechs are gaining the use of an bug via self healing to get extra procs of their relics. Once that is fixed [it was fixed in the previous tier of gear] we are going to see their numbers drop. Snipers are also seeing an increase in DPS with this bug as well. In the Marauders parse for example, his fight was 195 seconds long. His Primary Surge buff ended 22 times, meaning he had 132 seconds of Primary Surge, and his Power Surge ended 21 times, giving him a total of 126. His uptime on these buffs was 67.6% of the fight, and 64.6% of the fight respectively. Under normal circumstances, his proc rate should have had a lock out of 20 seconds before alacrity, leading to just shy under 10 procs for each. Assuming 198 Relics, we're talking an extra 890 of Power and 890 of primary stat. He is currently enjoying an added full minute of these effects. Once this bug is fixed, Melee will plummet.

 

Double Proc glitch AFAIK only significantly affects marauders and ops on the dummy, at least for melee.

Into the fray requires you to take damage in order to activate as well as adrenaline rush.

I guess PTs could spec into guard cannon that would possibly give them an extra proc but it

would be no where near as beneficial as that of marauders and ops.

Edited January 10, 2015 by rsuhandy

[KyoMamoru]

Marauders certainly will get it the most, since their dots will produce heals every crit. Operatives can use their Stim Boost to heal, but this is only going to give them the chance once every 1:45 seconds after alacrity is taken into account on the cooldown. Operatives could use Kolto Probes, but that would be losing a cooldown for damage dealing, which would lead to lower numbers. I could be wrong [i don't play PT], but Shoulder Cannon can give healing Via Utility which gives them 4 missiles every 1.5 minutes before alacrity for a move that's off global cool down.

 

In terms of Ranged, Snipers will see the biggest boost, since being in cover grants them a heal every 3 seconds.

[Whitelightr]

The way it could be done was to have ranged abilities unable to perform while in movement, and then have boss mechanics that force players to move. However, Bioware did the exact opposite lately by allowing more abilities to be perform while moving. This is obviously a major boon for ranged characters.

 

I don't mind ranged being able to dps on the move to a degree, but I agree it shouldn't be close to their full dps potential. Personally I've always like the way most sand-box MMOs handle it, range can operate at any range but suffer penalties if not at optimal range (accuracy, damage modifiers, etc).

[KyoMamoru]

That would make it a bit more fair, if Range had to be within certain tolerances; however, the locational lag in this game is pretty poor and would cause far too many people to suffer from issues that would hamper their quality of life.

[fire-breath]

In the current operational content [one can only imagine how things are going to be in Nightmare Mode] it is substantially harder on a group to bring Melee into the fight.

Correct-ish. Melee need to have a brain to see when they need to temporarely backoff

 

Currently, the best AOEs in the game are reserved for Ranged Dps, while they also maintain the absolute best DPS numbers.

False - Melee DPS are having better, if not equal AoE DPS options as ranged. Take DoTspreading from serenity and watchman and compare it against gunslingers and commandos. Don't compare it against sages since they are just broken atm.

 

Let's review the new operation mechanics.

In the coming list I don't want to repeat myself to often so I'll name it here. Melee DPS are BALANCED to do more damage than ranged so they CAN run away if and when needed. ANY arguement you give where melee have reduced uptime on the boss is FALSE.

 

What you maybe meant to say is that you think melee DPS are not doing enough damage to compensate for the downtime. But the downtime itself is not an issue.

 

Below I placed my comments in green text

Ravagers

Sparky

• [Hard Mode] Adds need to be away from the boss's aura.
  They don't need to be away its better if they are away but not needed. Even on zorz vids you'll see the adds in the circle very often.
  
• The boss is mobile with knockbacks and leaps, forcing Melee to chase.
  Sparky should be quite stationary. If he is not than tell your tanks to control him better. Besides the random leaping to other people Sparky can be tanked in 1 spot with a maximum of 10-ish meters movement
  
• Adds need to be killed timely due to debuffs placed on the tank, which requires numerous target changes.
  Which is as much a problem for ranged as for melee. Just play a spec where you can easely swap targets (like for example sentinel concentration or tactics vanguard)
  
• Boss has a Multi-Leap Phase where he Melee is forced to chase after him while he attacks everyone in the group. Range keeps full uptime.
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  

 

Bulo

• Multiple AOEs that if placed near the Boss that can completely negate Melee DPS from being in range.
  Than dont freaking place the AoEs near the boss ....?
  And also melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  
• During the mass AOE phase, it is substantially easier for Ranged DPS to maintain uptime on the move, while Melee is forced to retreat.
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  
• Load Lifters have an AOE as well, which will dramatically increase the damage done to the raid with multiple Melee.
  It doesn't since anyone with a loadlifter should peel off from the group. This also is an issue for ranged. Melee will loose more dps but ..... Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  
• Cleave is far easier to avoid when Melee dps aren't crowded around the tank since the Ranged DPS are positioned at near max range.
  Its not hard to stay behind the boss. Learn to play / awareness issue for either your dps or your tanks.
  
• [Hardmode] Unstable Carts will target the Tanks, but will also be able to hit the Melee, unless the Melee abandon their DPS rotations.
  Tank should ALWAYS move back when the carts come. Complain to your tanks please. Melee dps should be able to stay put for this one
  

 

Torque

• Requires a single DPS to man summoning the droid. Without a ranged DPS, one Melee would need to run to the terminal.
  Wait where are your healers again and why are they sleeping?
  
• The Fire Add can be damaged by Melee, if they max out their range perfectly; however, the Add is capable of doing huge amounts of damage in the process.
  Good thing its stationary and can be killed by the ranged/tanks/higher ranged melee. With 4 melee there is enough opportunity to hit the fire add with 10 meters attacks
  
• The AOE that spawns from the floor has little warning and will stack on multiple Melee/tank resulting in tremendous damage.
  So .... plan for it and adjust the position where the boss gets tanked
  
• Ranged DPS have far more danger from shoots lasers if its not tanked as generally they are on shootslasers duty. Incoming damage is quite high
  

 

Master and Blaster

• Random members will gain a mine on them that if overlapped will cause an explosion. Melee cannot spread out adequately once you include a tank that has it.
  How large is blaster again? .... Only when the yellow/orange circles spawn you will get some issues. Either heal through or run away temporarely. Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  
• Master performs a Fire Wheel of Death that prevents Melee dps from damaging it.
  1 - this is only for a short time
  2 - Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  3 - some melee dps can either range attack it (ruffian scoundrels / vanguards) or refresh DoTs (sentinels). Shadows can pop resilience and continue play wack a mole
  

 

Coratanni

• The bird switches targets often. Melee is forced to be on Cortanni to maximize dps.
  Stack up a little bit more so the bird doesn't travel all the way to Africa (copyright to a guildy of mine)
  
• Land Mines require the tanks to constantly move the boss, if the tank does not, Melee can be in positions where they cannot dps.
  Tanks who are not moving will be dead tanks. Your arguement is invalid
  
• Death Mouse is an AOE every 30 seconds, which has a random target. If it goes after Melee, it results in tremendous amount of Raid damage unless the Melee stops dpsing. A Ranged will simply be spread out.
  Since when are death mice an issue? Last boss in karaga has the same thing
  
• Knockbacks hamper Melee far greater than Ranged in this fight.
  It doesn't. Melee gapclosers are about as fast as a ranged can be back. Exept maybe vanguards but they have many 10/30 meter attacks for on the move. And ofc
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  
• The fight is actually rather mobile towards the end points due to jumping/knockbacks, which significantly reduce Melee uptime.
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  

Temple of Sacrifice

Malaphar

• Adds spawn out of the circle requiring AOE damage. The longer you're out of the circle, the less damage you do.
  1 - You NEED to leave the circle at 1 point (assuming you talk about HM ofc).
  If you have 4 melee than adjust your tactics and let the tank bring the adds closer to the boss so the dps can stay in the circle. This isn't harder nor easier for the add tank. He either tanks it on spot A or on spot B.
  If you have 1 or 2 ranged let the ranged deal with the adds. You can/should DoT spread/AoE the adds if possible.
  
• When the spear Spawns, ranged DPS can still [assuming spec] do damage in the run as they go towards the adds. Melee cannot do this.
  No even better ... melee can either instantly leap / force speed / scamper to the adds. Also what happend with Scoundrel/Shadow/Vanguard dps abilities on the move? Either dotspread or use your 10-30 meter attacks.
  

 

Sword Squadron

• Numerous ground AOEs that if stacked or clipped result in tons of damage.
  Then don't stand in it. This is not really a big deal since there is lots of space
  
• The shield switch mechanic causes the Melee to change [using leap and so forth] when a few seconds later, an Add will spawn back on the other walker. A fast switch for Melee isn't possible.
  Which isn't really needed either
  
• If a Melee is charged with running the bomb, they will lose out on damage, due to having to sacrifice 15 seconds of their uptime every shield. If you deploy the bomb in those 15 seconds, it ends up being ~3,000 worth of dps applied to the Walker. A ranged DPS would be able to dps for an extra 7 seconds prior to picking up the bomb.
  1 - in which a ranged DPS is on the move towards the bombs which reduces their damage done.
  2 - Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  3 - let a tank pick up the bomb so the DPS can play with the walkers
  
• The Huge bomb requires spreading out and using movement abilities to escape. Ranged DPS can maintain attacking during this.
  As can certain melee classes. Whats your point exactly?
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  
• Walkers are very hard to evenly dps towards the end for Melee stacked teams, while a Ranged group could easily swap as necessary.
  Good thing there is something like voicecomms
  
• [Hardmode] Gravity bomb forces everyone to spread out, but Ranged Dps can maintain their uptime.
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  

 

The Underlurker

• During the Add phase, Ranged can stack on Healers, Melee are forced to attack the mobs.
  Which means you all are in AoE healing range provided the healers and ranged are correctly positioned. Whats the issue exactly?
  
• The Adds in the fight also have aditional Melee attacks on top of the AOE. Ranged stacked groups will not deal with this damage.
  
• When the rocks fall, melee are still forced to deal with the damage from the AOE stomp and the Rage Storm. Range can attack from behind the rocks.
  Collapse doesn't happen at the same time as rage storm. Also the red circles are VERY easy to avoid and as much a ranged/healer/tank issue as melee issue
  
• During the Rage Storm, Ranged dps can LOS via the rock and still damage the boss. Melee cannot.
  False. Resilience the storm and continue dealing damage. And use your 10-30 meter attacks when hiding. Also ranged can;t always shoot at stuff since the rock is blocking LOS at times
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  
• After the knockback before the Cross, Range can continue to attack while getting into position.
  As can melee. Either leap/forcespeed/scamper for almost instant 4-10 meters range or use your 10-30 attacks as vanguard
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  

 

Revanite Commanders

• There's so much target switching and add spawning that Melee can never get on anything aside from the boss for more than a few moments.
  I agree I never seem to be able finish my casts as ranged on those nasty adds. They just die so fast ..... It seems I can only hit the boss for more than a few moments
  
• AOE from Curse forces Melee to retreat, while Range continues full damage.
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  Retreat how far ....? 100% chance you will be in 4 meters range of something in this fight
  
• Adds can place AOEs on boss [or themselves] that will damage Melee.
  Good to know ranged DPS have a Godmode buff against adds.
  Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate
  

 

Revan

• Sabers force the group to spread out to deal with AOE/mechanic. All Ranged classes have their own Knockback moves. Operatives and Marauders do not have access to any. Having either in your group causes two members of the raid to stop what they are doing to deal with it.
  Thats not a melee issue but more an operative/marauder issue ....
  
• HK's bomb throw requires everyone to spread out to avoid stacking damage. Range can continue to DPS without issue, while Melee will have to abandon uptime to avoid splashing each other or the tanks.
  Yes we could potentially continue dps although I wouldnt recommend it since HK has a nice reflect shield which kinda kills you if you do so. But sure. dps away
  
• Ground AOEs aren't as bad in this fight, but they are a massive hurdle for Melee compared to Range.
  I would argue that its more an issue for ranged since ranged need to be more aware of where the boss is in order to not get cleaved AND they need to keep clear from the aborations. As melee just follow the tank like a lapdog and all should be fine as long as the tank does his job.
  

 

Currently the absolutely highest dpsing parse for a Melee is 4924 dps on a 500k dummy. This was accomplished by a Concealment Operative [me] when server lag was at the absolutely lowest, and required numerous parses to actually accomplish. Aside from my single dps parse, there are no other Concealment Operatives that have posted anything close to that, and if I would post a 1,000,000 dummy, my parse would be lowered to 4700. Comparatively, we have ranged DPS that at peak are doing 5130 dps on the 1,000,000 dummy. When it comes to Melee, the only spec that has multiple people having success is Annihilation, and that is only because of a double proc bug on Primary Stat Relics due to their self healing. Even in my concealment spec, I was aided by it due to Stim Boost's self heal. When that is removed from the equation, we'll have the upper tier of Melee sustained DPS averaging under 4700 through all specs. That's the best players of these classes.

 

This is all on a stationary target. No changing of targets, no running to a new target, and certainly no dodging of mechanics. At the moment the content is significantly easier with stacked Ranged Classes:

 

I guess your post could have sufficed with saying that you think melee DPS is high enough to compensate for the reduced downtime on bosses.

Personally I think its a bit to early crying wolf yet considering Torparse is only up a short while ago. Also consensus isnt there yet how to even handle the parses (1.500.000 vs 1.000.000 dummy). So until all results are in ....

 

Also don't forget that a dummy being immovable is also a pro for ranged due to not having to move ever. On my saboteur/engineer my dummy rotation is much easier to maintain than it is in a raid. A dummy rotation is by NO means EVER an indication if a dps class does well enough in operations

 

• They output more damage even in a Dummy environment.
  
• AOE circles are never placed near the boss.
  
• AOEs will never stack damage on the raid due to overlaps by being too close.
  
• Rarely will they find themselves in a situation where they cannot DPS a boss.
  
• Adds that self destruct on targets have ample time to be spotted and heals prepared in advance.
  
• They easily target switch.
  
• Pound for pound, their AOEs are significantly more powerful.
  
• They can easily stack near Healers for AOE Healing when necessary. Add an Assassin's Shelter for even better results.
  
• Rotationally easier due to having to pay less attention to the mechanics of fights.
  

 

Yes, you can beat Story Modes with Melee. You can even struggle through Hard Modes and make it work; however, if you're going for the absolute ease of clearing the content, there's nothing that is going to beat Ranged Dps right now in this game for PVE. In Nightmare, I cannot even being to fathom how the mechanics are going to make Melee even less viable. Melee would need to see a massive buff to damage done. Already, a mere month into this expansion I'm seeing groups scoff at the thought of bringing in a Melee into their raid groups. I've witnessed numerous die hard Melee players make the switch.

 

I posted this on the Test Server's forum, and I'm posting it here. This is an issue that is very, very important to me as a player, so I hope I'm not breaking a forum rule in an attempt to gain more visibility for this topic.

 

If its truly important for you that melee aren't chased away from raiding spots in average guilds than give tips and tricks for melee instead of giving so many false arguements against melee. The mechanics in operations are fine as is. It has ALWAYS been the case that a ranged dps had a slightly easier task regarding avoiding stuff and this operations are no exeption to that rule.

 

Please don't mistake my post for a trolling post or whatever. I always hate it to see people getting kicked out of groups for nonsense reasons. The problems facing melee are more a, dare I say it? A perception issue.

Melee dps have ample opportunity to do damage while not standing at 4 meters aware.

 

The true facts of your posts are that melee DPS might be to low compared to range. Although I would rather say that ranged DPS is to high in compaired to melee. Meaning ranged dps should get some nerfs if the balance isn't there.

[Danylia]

Please don't mistake my post for a trolling post or whatever.

Fair enough. Off the record, your signature has Tank, Healer, and 3 Ranged DPS which suggests these are your mains, but of course that doesn't mean you have no experience with Meele DPS.

 

Melee DPS are having better, if not equal AoE DPS options as ranged.

Operative DPS here (Concealment, but that's not even important): Pardon me?

 

Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate.

I agree 100% IF you replace "is balanced" with "should be balanced". Right now, I'm not sure the former is the case.

 

It has ALWAYS been the case that a ranged dps had a slightly easier task regarding avoiding stuff and this operations are no exeption to that rule.

I agree with the bolded part. However in my opinion these Operations are an exception - in the sense that ranged have vastly (not just slightly) easier task to avoid stuff.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Correct-ish. Melee need to have a brain to see when they need to temporarely backoff

 

 

False - Melee DPS are having better, if not equal AoE DPS options as ranged. Take DoTspreading from serenity and watchman and compare it against gunslingers and commandos. Don't compare it against sages since they are just broken atm.

 

Nope, YOU'RE false: I will outperform my Watchman Sent (which is my main!) with my lesser geared Commando (Dot specced) any time. Of course you don't use the Dot spreading option on your Commando, since it's simply not effective / too energy draining in comparison. But combination of Plasma and Sticky without the Dots plus Mortar and Spammable AoE enhanced via Utility plus Pulse Cannon once you have aggro (which you will have :-) gives me more AoE DPS even in the groups designed for Watchman Dotspread (<- Trash in ToS)

 

I daresay I am quite familiar with both melee and ranged DPS specs, having mained a Watchman since shortly after release and having spent half a year maining a Hybrid Gunslinger in NiM progression. Trust me, this round of content is the most melee unfriendly the game has seen. There's a reason I've pretty much abandoned my Sentinel for it...

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[wadecounty]

fire-breath, that was a decent post, and I agree the crying about how bad melee is in this thread is overblown.

 

That said... the reply to about 70% of the issues the other poster listed, from you, is that melee do more damage to compensate, and that is not the case currently. They do not do more damage when they are on boss than ranged, its actually fairly even between melee/ranged, look at a few parsing threads to see examples.

 

I think the issue is, 1-2 melee is fine, as it always has been. But 4 ranged also works just fine with almost no penalty on any fight, and advantages on certain fights, while 3-4 melee is extremely punishing on some fights. We need more mechanics to punish ranged, not massive buffs for melee dps.

[Ardarell_Solo]

fire-breath, that was a decent post, and I agree the crying about how bad melee is in this thread is overblown.

 

That's a matter of perspective. Fire-breath has listed very good suggestions how to OVERCOME the additional difficulties that bringing more melee DPS mean.

 

But that's not the point discussed here and it's a killer response you often get in threads when people point out inbalanced aspects of the game. For those can almost always be evened out by superior skill.

 

The point of the OP still remains: Game is designed in a way that requires you to do deal with these additional difficulties. Explaining HOW it is done is nice, but kinda not up for debate.

 

Also nobody ever said overcoming those problems was impossible, it's obviously not. People here are just trying to raise awareness for the fact that most players who are not blessed with superior skill are discouraged by current game design to bring more than one melee in their raids.

 

And I honestly doubt that's what Devs are aiming for...

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[Rafkin]

As others have said, change the mechanics not the classes. I've done Torque as an Assassin and as a Gunslinger. My Gunslinger never once had to move, changing to Shoot Lasers took nothing more than hitting Tab, and I was able to click for Repair Droids.

 

To have such an extreme difference between melee and ranged caused by mechanics is just poor design.

[mynameisbugged]

Below I placed my comments in green text

 

lol i actually thought similar things about all the complaining - some of the mechanics OP was complaining about were very questionable....

 

i couldn't really be bothered to type all the poor mechanics he was doing though, but glad you did. So well done to you sir

[Waspflow]

Re-role a sniper. Edited January 12, 2015 by Waspflow

[Xenphon]

@fire-breath

 

I am not sure what game you have been playing, but the current operations are, as Ardarell-Solo said, the most unbalanced so far when it comes to melee vs. ranged. Your statement that "Melee is balanced for the reduced uptime. They are intended to do more damage to compensate even with the downtime" is currently very wrong. Ranged and melee do fairly equal damage when both have 100% uptime. For marauders this is only the case for annihilation, fury and carnage perform worse. As soon as mechanics that mostly affect melee occur, you'll see a significant advantage in favour of ranged. Torque is probably the fight where you will see this difference stand out the most. I have no idea how you can deny this, as it's something that everyone that has gone into the current HMs will agree to. There's a reason so many melee have changed to ranged (or PT, as PTs can do most of their abilities at range). That would not have been necessary if the game was balanced as you put it.

 

Which is as much a problem for ranged as for melee. Just play a spec where you can easely swap targets (like for example sentinel concentration or tactics vanguard)

 

That's not true. The adds are usually placed around the fight, not always stacked together. Whereas ranged can easily swap from where they are melee will have to move there if gap closers are on cd, thus having downtime compared to ranged. And no, the balance is currently not there that makes up for the downtime. Going something like fury will also severely reduce your dps on the boss whereas ranged such as sorcs and snipers are currently in a far better spot to handle target switching between adds and boss.

 

Cleave is far easier to avoid when Melee dps aren't crowded around the tank since the Ranged DPS are positioned at near max range.

Its not hard to stay behind the boss. Learn to play / awareness issue for either your dps or your tanks.

 

The tanks are moving during that fight. A slight movement may be enough for a previously safe position to now be within cleave ranged. Ranged does not have this problem when fighting Bulo. That said, Bulo is one of the easier fights for melee in the new content, but I felt it was necessary to point out that melee is at a disadvantage even here. The additional movement needed to avoid this would be fine if the damage done by melee was balanced as you point out, but it's not. The fights are several examples such as this where melee have a harder time without any damage advantage whatsoever. That's the reason why people bring ranged in favour of melee. Everything is easier.

 

I am also baffled about your comparison about the AOE capabilities of melee vs. ranged. Not even counting sorcs, ranged are still very much the equal of melee, if not superior. Snipers and mercs both have excellent aoe capabilities. I don't think marauders really have anything close to that. Fury's change to smash has severely hampered our AOE, as smash now hits like a wet noodle compared to pre 3.x. The Revanite Commanders are not really an annihilation fight, whatever AOE capabilities the spec has is pretty irrelevant there. The adds will die to the instant AOE damage of other specs for the dot spreading from Annihilation will do much. The dot spread mechanic is also rather clunky and range inefficient, as well. Yet to play my operative in the new operations, but I don't see them doing much AOE there either. Juggs are in the same boat as maras. Sins and PTs can do well, but they are not superior to ranged in any way.

 

So ye, having done 3/5 and 4/5 in HMs so far as a marauder I can only question your remarks. They are quite far off the mark. If the game was perfectly balanced it would be like what you've pointed out, but reality is different. Melee (except PTs, although they also suffer on Torque) are not in a good place at the moment. There's a significant advantage to bringing ranged into the new operations compared to previous operations. It's not impossible, but it makes everything harder if you bring melee. That challenge increases with the number of melee you bring. There's no such challenge if you bring ranged.

[fire-breath]

fire-breath, that was a decent post, and I agree the crying about how bad melee is in this thread is overblown.

 

That said... the reply to about 70% of the issues the other poster listed, from you, is that melee do more damage to compensate, and that is not the case currently. They do not do more damage when they are on boss than ranged, its actually fairly even between melee/ranged, look at a few parsing threads to see examples.

 

I maybe gave slightly the wrong impression.

 

Melee DPS are BALANCED to do more damage than ranged so they CAN run away if and when needed. ANY arguement you give where melee have reduced uptime on the boss is FALSE.

 

What you maybe meant to say is that you think melee DPS are not doing enough damage to compensate for the downtime. But the downtime itself is not an issue.

 

Please take note of the last line in my quote. The intention of bioware is that melee are doing more damage than ranged. Everywhere where I responded with that line was where OP complaining that melee had to back off.

To say it in different words: Melee backing off and having less uptime on the boss doesn't mean that melee are trumped. Melee are maybe getting trumped on the DPS department because the balance is off.

 

Nope, YOU'RE false:

I am also baffled about your comparison about the AOE capabilities of melee vs. ranged.

 

correct. I tend to overexaggerate when I see something where I heavely disagree with. You are correct that commando AoE outclasses sentinel AoE.

 

I daresay I am quite familiar with both melee and ranged DPS specs, having mained a Watchman since shortly after release and having spent half a year maining a Hybrid Gunslinger in NiM progression. Trust me, this round of content is the most melee unfriendly the game has seen. There's a reason I've pretty much abandoned my Sentinel for it...

As you see in my sig I have been playing melee dps too (saboteur slinger + scatterbombs = melee). In 3.0 I tend to play my engineer sniper from range because the rotation without scattering is better now.

Although I do agree that the operations are melee unfriendly I DONT agree with the feeling that melee are massivly trumped and not viable.

 

Whenever I could in ravagers and tos I respecced my shadow to dps and I haven't encountered any issue where I felt trumped by my sniper. Sure you need to pay more attention to the fight and sure you are in more danger than a ranged. But again its not a need-nerf-nao feeling.

 

If the game was perfectly balanced it would be like what you've pointed out, but reality is different. Melee (except PTs, although they also suffer on Torque) are not in a good place at the moment.

And THATS the issue. Melee dps might currently not be balanced correctly. I'm not giving an opinion on that one. What I was giving my opinion on was the whole lot of other reasons in the OP which I still stand behind (safe for the AoE capabilities).

Just compare it with being sick. It might feel like the envirement is cold and you will want to put on additional clothes. However in reality the temperature hasn't changed and it only feels like it because you are sick.

In this analogy sick = less damage and feeling cold = melee are being trumped.

 

If melee dps is truly not up to par than as far as I know range dps should get a nerf considering the DPS goals from the devteam.

 

Whereas ranged can easily swap from where they are melee will have to move there if gap closers are on cd, thus having downtime compared to ranged. And no, the balance is currently not there that makes up for the downtime. Going something like fury will also severely reduce your dps on the boss

Going fury will reduce your dps you say. So .... is it the issue that you can't dps long enough or that fury doesnt deal enough dps?

I have done this boss often on my shadow and I never experienced the <**** its already dead> feeling. Also, in case I am just lucky and/or sentinels are just worse off than shadows, the issue is not that melee have a reduced uptime but like you said that the balance in dps might be off. Thats a whole different issue and one which I agree with if thats the case.

 

There's a significant advantage to bringing ranged into the new operations compared to previous operations. It's not impossible, but it makes everything harder if you bring melee. That challenge increases with the number of melee you bring. There's no such challenge if you bring ranged.

This is something I agree with. Its always more easy to have ranged than it is to have melee. This has always been the case imo and yes these operations are not really melee friendly. I wouldn't call it massively trumped and i am strongly against the general feeling that melee should reroll to ranged.

 

However .......................................................................................................................................... more in a second post

[fire-breath]

I have to admit that my pugging experience in the new operations is not existant. I have pugged underlurker once to fill in for a person who left. Today I did a ravagers SM and I think I might need to rethink my feelings about ranged vs melee.

 

Sparky = easy enough

Bulo = got really easy, only 2 people died and they were standing in the barrelthrow fire for more than the initial hit

Torque = .... ouch. .... just ouch ......

 

We had 6 melee dps or so and it was hell. It was very easy to heal but whenever the fire spawned people were dropping like flies even while getting a koltobomb+succesive treatment (died midcast at times). Even the fire add was causing casualties because melee were standing in it for multiple seconds.

 

For pugging purposes I think the feeling is very much correct. The new operations are to dangerous for melee

[Ardarell_Solo]

As you see in my sig I have been playing melee dps too (saboteur slinger + scatterbombs = melee).

 

Absolutely not!

 

The main problem of melee DPSing is that you have no more options, once you're forced to leave the 4m range.

 

On a Sab Slinger (which actually is my main progression spec atm) it's the other way round: Being in melee range is a nice option to do additional DPS via Scatter Bombs. But if things get rough near the boss you just back off and do a rotation that's good for 4800ish dps from 35m.

 

As a true melee, especially Sent, you're doing next to zero DPS, once you have to leave the 4m range and have spent your only rotational 30m attack (Double Saber Throw), which is on a 18sec Cooldown. Its true, Scoundrels can still Auto shot and Charged Burst, but they'll do about a quarter of their full DPS potential that way.

 

So you absolutely can not compare a Sab Slinger to a true melee DPS in the context of the difficulties described in this thread.

 

You can basically talk to any melee DPS, even of the higher skill level, and they will all tell you, how unfriendly current content is. Especially players who play both melee and range dps will tell you that things haven't really gotten more difficult for ranged DPS in comparison. And in the more difficult rDPS fights, life as a melee is hell.

[Ruskaeth]

All ranged AOE is stronger than that of any melee AOE.

[power-alex]

All ranged AOE is stronger than that of any melee AOE.

 

that is not true, for carnage marauders aoe slash triggers ataru from and if speced with 25% boost to aoe damage you can do some enormous damage on trash pulls. I've done up to 7k dps almost twice as much as any ranged dps in the group.

 

But to the point of the tread, i agree, i gave up melee dps for ops, only do occasional flashpoints on it

[KyoMamoru]

Trash Pulls? Our Sorcs average 12k-17k until things scale down to sub 3 targets. Snipers and Mercs are maintaining 8-12k.

[Xenphon]

that is not true, for carnage marauders aoe slash triggers ataru from and if speced with 25% boost to aoe damage you can do some enormous damage on trash pulls. I've done up to 7k dps almost twice as much as any ranged dps in the group.

 

But to the point of the tread, i agree, i gave up melee dps for ops, only do occasional flashpoints on it

 

You must have been running with ranged that simply cba doing trash or they were really poor players. Only answer.

[FridgeLM]

Currently, the best AOEs in the game are reserved for Ranged Dps

 

I've yet to see a single ranged dps out-aoe Pyro, Deception, or Vengeance.

[Joran-Koon]

I've yet to see a single ranged dps out-aoe Pyro, Deception, or Vengeance.

I don't know what kind of ranged you all are breeding over there but Ktap's force storm...that is all.

[FridgeLM]

I don't know what kind of ranged you all are breeding over there but Ktap's force storm...that is all.

 

Sorcerers come close but Pyro Deception and Vengeance pretty much blow everything out of the water. Carnage too.

[SkyLordJaden]

I have zero experience with the new ops, but from what I understand about raids is that they have to make mechanics specifically for tanks to have to follow, aside from debuffs and swaps, and since all tanks are melee this requires them to apply to melee dps as well. Along with that, tanks being able to take more damage means dps have a bit of a harder time and have to focus on a perfect rotation along with avoiding standing in stupid, knowing a knockback is coming, etc and they still do less dps than ranged. The solution isnt to buff melee dps because that would nerf ranged dps in pvp since their cds arent as good.

 

I think the best solution is for people to realize that the content is meant to be challenging and that being melee has extra challenges so knowing your play style and deciding whether you like ranged or melee is the most important thing. Also the fact that its supposed to be for fun is imprtant too XD