regarding punishment for exploit

[ivanhedgehog]

This makes me laugh to no end. Usually, I never agree with anything Andryah says. To my knowledge in the few times we've engaged in discussions, we've always been civil, but she drives me nuts sometimes with the arguments. So for us to be seeing almost completely eye to eye on something is a shocker!

 

Cheers to you, Andryah!

 

Andryah has been the voice of reason throughout this discussion. Thumbs up for Andryah.

[Frybert]

 

I do wonder just what will happen next Tuesday.

 

My guess: They'll fix the exploit, not say a word about what was done to exploiters (most likely nothing) and either this topic will 'die out' (except to be brought up for the next topic of the week) or the forums will turn into a poodoo storm. Either way, I'm going to make sure I have some popcorn on hand.

[Kourage]

Every single player who used the exploit should just voluntarily ban him or her self. Unsubscribe. Give them what they want. More server consolidation and less than 100k subs. Right there with SWG.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I understand what you're saying. Really I do. But it's the lockout that is affecting you. Not the exploit specifically. The later in the week it gets, the less groups there are that are running the raids, because many people have already done it, and are thus locked out.

 

But if it will make you feel better, I'll amend my earlier statement. The lockouts people get from using the exploit may have the absolutely smallest possible effect on your hypothetical situation.

 

However, if you get on in the next few days and hop into a pug group for one of those raids, then you've effectively just proven exactly what I've been saying all along, which is that there is no effect whatsoever to your gaming experience.

 

Sorry but from my experience you're wrong and from what I can see you are backing up your own stand point against Khevar with nothing more than opinion and what you THINK occurs.

 

In my own experience since this exploit has taken root it has definitely been harder to find groups to run the content for all the reasons Khevar has outlined and also if you're part of a guild where most of the guildies who ran operation content also used the exploit you find you can't even get in a raid group anymore due to gearing solely because one chooses to be honest.

 

Thinking back to the buggy launch of DF/DP where you couldn't even finish the raids at all there were still multitudes more groups forming to run the content than what we are seeing now. I'm sure there could be other reasons but I think Khevar has hit the nail on the head for why we are seeing this and we'll know for sure come the patch on Tuesday if the available groups start boosting ( especially if they remove everyone's ill gotten gear ).

 

To state it's just the lockout would imply it's always like this and that's just not the case. People who in the past would burn lockouts running content on pugs ( which is a surprisingly large amount of people when you take toons into consideration ) are now burning them simply moving forward and clicking ( exploit ).

 

Thus less people actually running the ops thus less groups forming.

 

Even the hardcore raiders would usually burn 1-2 lockouts on their mains with their guild and then during the week burn through lockouts on other toons in pugs for the practice/comms/drops etc. yet now they can quickly get the gear from the exploit and lock those toons out.

 

To think this is having no effect on the game what so ever is just ignorance and comes across to me as guilty people trying to defend their actions.

 

And it MAY or MAY NOT be a breach of the TOS.

 

Eric has publicly called it an exploit and an exploit is a breach of ToS. The question is whether or not they take action against players accounts, not if it was a breach of ToS or not.

 

To make a statement like yours above again comes across as guilty players just trying to defend their actions.

 

Defending exploiters from people who are calling for their heads? Absolutely! My defense would include you if you've ever used any cheat code, game glitch, or money making scheme in any game you've ever played. Why? Because they are video games. They are meant to be fun. If someone's idea of fun in a video game is to use a glitch to get the best gear, and as a result they enjoy the game more, while at the same time not affecting anyone else's game experience, then yes, I'm all for it and I'll defend them to the end.

 

Except we pay for this game and if I say someones cheating has impacted upon my experience in the game for the reasons I list then it's not on you to say no it hasn't. That is not your place to do so. They chose to cheat and there are players who ARE impacted by it regardless of what other players think.

 

All that is left is for BW to decide what action, if any, to take based on how they see the situation.

 

You can tout off about how it doesn't effect you all you like but don't try and tell players who do feel aggrieved that they are basically wrong and are imagining the impact the exploit has had on them. For the most part they are paying players to like yourself.

 

IMO there are no grounds to defend a cheater/exploiter in this instance. They all know what they are doing is wrong and thus it's even worse. It's not like cheesing mechanics in this case, it's blatant cheating.

 

They have an unfair advantage over "legit" crafters? How? Can't the "legit" crafters purchase the comm gear and RE it? Or run the raids themselves to get the gear?

 

Purchase and run - 2 words the cheaters didn't have to do thus 2 unfair advantages they got that the non cheater didn't by pretty much your own admission here.

 

Let's ignore the fact that the exploiters have actually increased the availability of the materials needed to craft, thereby benefiting the "legitimate" crafters. Hmmm.

 

They've also crashed the market more or less for what would have been far more valuable items that legit palyers could be making/selling for a much better profit there by cutting out the legit players of their fair market rate for the items they actually put work into getting ( be it mats or the RE schem from running the raid legitimately ).

 

Or do you mean people like myself who have spent weeks learning the schemeatics for the purple 186 armorings, mods, enhancements, ear pieces, relics, and implants to gear out our toons, only to have that effort be made obsolete by the exploiters. Is that who you meant by "legitimate" crafters?

 

The only way the 186 crafters get affected is by the abundance of the newer gear but thanks you've added another point to the way in which exploiters are affecting the game.

 

Whether or not you care or you feel it affects is rather moot also as there will be others who do care and do feel affected and that is fair enough because they didn't cheat. People who didn't cheat shouldn't be told their thoughts and opinions are wrong by people who did cheat or those that choose to defend them basically.

[krisknife]

Just want to point that most "punishments" I can imagine BioWare handing out would either punish a lot of innocent people or would require a substantial amount of developer time just to Identify those that used the exploit, and, if something other than a permanent or temporary account ban was imposed, even more dev time to implement the punishment.

 

So even if they can use the simplest-to-implement punishment, the ban hammer, they will have to expend resources (developer time mainly) that would otherwise be spent on delivering a more playable game.

 

Which choice do you think serves BioWare's interests better: punishing players or improving the game's code?

Which choice serves the player community better?

Did the exploiters harm your enjoyment of SWTOR more or less than all the (other) bugs and lag problems?

 

Still, it's BW's call, and we'll see on Tuesday.

 

you don't seem to realize the level of damage these "exploiters" dropped on BW. They have some tough decisions to make because of it, one of which I assure you is not to be soft on these exploiters, watch and see. I will elaborate, the ones who used it once or twice , yeah sure they may gain some form of semi punishment but those that have stockpiles, well they have no good excuse really and for the amount of work they just caused BW and money you think they are going to be like hey these endgame players who already have everything, hardly ever CC (those that heavy CC less likely to cheat usually more invested to lose), and all the lose is $15 a month, versus the killed content, the work/money lost and the possible future of these guys finding next bug and using it too, no you draw a line so all others who come after it knows and you chalk up whatever loss and move on.

 

Some of you are in the delusion we live 20 years ago, programs exist to search thru data, their would be very little hours put into tracking this exploit and pinning down all involved even just once or twice, you are drastically underestimating BW and todays computers, again wait and see. I have my popcorn, my conscience is clear, It should be quite good

[AMulls]

CAN, not will, at Bioware's sole discretion.

 

Hahaha. Max beat me to it.

[Andryah]

Andryah has been the voice of reason throughout this discussion. Thumbs up for Andryah.

 

I do try. So it's nice when it is recognized, especially from folks that do not always agree with me.

[Lucyfer_Infinity]

No punishment for exploiters will be clear message that cheating and exploiting in SWTOR is OK and everyone should abuse the crap out of every bug possible or be left behind feeling like a fool and sucker.

[grombrinda]

You can bet it is. There is no MMO is history that didn't have if you exploit game mechanics you are up for disciplinary action to some extent of the developer.

 

The severity of that punishment being all up to them.

 

This is no different.

 

hehehe Archage would like a word with you about the exploits they have had recently.....and how they didn't do anything about it....

[Theeko]

hehehe Archage would like a word with you about the exploits they have had recently.....and how they didn't do anything about it....

 

Also add ESO with that one too no wonder why they're alot smaller in population

Edited January 9, 2015 by Theeko

[ivanhedgehog]

No punishment for exploiters will be clear message that cheating and exploiting in SWTOR is OK and everyone should abuse the crap out of every bug possible or be left behind feeling like a fool and sucker.

 

Harsh punishment will be a sign that bw employees want to learn how to work in the fast food industry.

 

 

reading the messages in the stars is easy!!

[Andryah]

you don't seem to realize the level of damage these "exploiters" dropped on BW. They have some tough decisions to make because of it, one of which I assure you is not to be soft on these exploiters, watch and see. I will elaborate, the ones who used it once or twice , yeah sure they may gain some form of semi punishment but those that have stockpiles, well they have no good excuse really and for the amount of work they just caused BW and money you think they are going to be like hey these endgame players who already have everything, hardly ever CC (those that heavy CC less likely to cheat usually more invested to lose), and all the lose is $15 a month, versus the killed content, the work/money lost and the possible future of these guys finding next bug and using it too, no you draw a line so all others who come after it knows and you chalk up whatever loss and move on.

 

Some of you are in the delusion we live 20 years ago, programs exist to search thru data, their would be very little hours put into tracking this exploit and pinning down all involved even just once or twice, you are drastically underestimating BW and todays computers, again wait and see. I have my popcorn, my conscience is clear, It should be quite good

 

AND... we have been down this road before, and not just this MMO. Regardless of how much depth they have in data gathering and analysis (and they clearly do have good depth of capability)... ANY mass action will have false positives. One false positive induced ban is worse then 100 valid ones IMO. And IF you yourself were a false positive I'm sure you would run over to reddit and start tearing them a new one.

 

But the actual hard part for a game company is to develop a proportional response to those that took advantage. Why? Because there will be a range of instances.. some chronic (and due the heaviest hand), some conspiring to spread the knowledge and use of an exploit (insta perma ban IMO), etc. etc. etc.... all the way down to the curious who try it just to see what all the fuss is about. Not all offenders deserve the same actions. Responses should be proportional... NOT barbaric. And as such.. all our collective opining and editorializing is for not. Bioware must sort through this and set a path to remedy... NOT US.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Which choice do you think serves BioWare's interests better: punishing players or improving the game's code?

 

They should be improving the game's code anyway. This has been as a result of their own negligence so it can be argued they need to punish/fix it anyway as part of the remedying of the issue this coding error has caused.

 

For the record before I go any further as it's been over 30 pges since I was last able to read this thread I am of the opinion that I don't care for any punishment meted out. What I want to see if any gear that was gained illegally be removed to return the balance of the game back to how it should be.

 

You can argue developer time and how hard this may or may not be but truly we don't know because we don't know how their logging may work or if there is any easily identifiable means for them to quickly identify the cheaters in said logging.

 

As I've said in the past though if they can identify a cheating user then imo there is grounds for them to remove all gear that COULD be have gained illegally ( so if we're talking armorings or comm gear that clearly isn't gained illegally it wouldn't be touched ) from said accounts to ease up on the work required of just removing the illegal gear. Heck it would be fair even if they removed the entire shell that any illegal gear is present in also, seems a fitting punishment to me.

 

So really it all comes down to how thorough their logging is and if there is any means for them to identify cheaters.

 

If it's easy then expect some fairly wholesale repercussions to those that cheat. If it's nigh in impossible then expect little to occur other than possible perm bans on those that started all this ( funny how that guild in other areas has the nerve to criticise progression threads because people might be using gear they didn't earn when they are the ones who started this whole tihng and were even selling gear from it ).

 

Banning to me of people who exploited is a waste of time if they just come back to their ill gotten gains. Short bans means nothing, long ban hurts the game on a whole, banning isn't a solution and neither is rewarding honest players with bloody mounts and things as some have suggested - those don't help me run keep up with the cheaters to run content.

[krisknife]

No punishment for exploiters will be clear message that cheating and exploiting in SWTOR is OK and everyone should abuse the crap out of every bug possible or be left behind feeling like a fool and sucker.

 

if they do nothing why not, this level of an exploit, might as well be using hacks IMO, same difference. To me it would be a green light to allot of folk, not myself personally , but I can see their reasoning if they did. BW has yet to take harsh public actions on exploiters, this maybe their last chance for allot of us. I know even though I love this game , I couldn't see it being fun with rampant cheating, this is bad enough really, sickening how so many are like it's not a big deal. It's a huge freaking deal:(

[Theeko]

Banning to me of people who exploited is a waste of time if they just come back to their ill gotten gains. Short bans means nothing, long ban hurts the game on a whole, banning isn't a solution and neither is rewarding honest players with bloody mounts and things as some have suggested - those don't help me run keep up with the cheaters to run content.

 

Banning is the only means of a solution to the majority, more people have left ESO cause of how they did nothing about the duped items, exploited items, and the hurt of the whole entire economy rather than listening to the majority of the population about the matter. An Exploit is an Exploit, they knew what they were doing and knew what the consequences were going to be.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Theeko

[Andryah]

They should be improving the game's code anyway. This has been as a result of their own negligence so it can be argued they need to punish/fix it anyway as part of the remedying of the issue this coding error has caused.

 

For the record before I go any further as it's been over 30 pges since I was last able to read this thread I am of the opinion that I don't care for any punishment meted out. What I want to see if any gear that was gained illegally be removed to return the balance of the game back to how it should be.

 

You can argue developer time and how hard this may or may not be but truly we don't know because we don't know how their logging may work or if there is any easily identifiable means for them to quickly identify the cheaters in said logging.

 

As I've said in the past though if they can identify a cheating user then imo there is grounds for them to remove all gear that COULD be have gained illegally ( so if we're talking armorings or comm gear that clearly isn't gained illegally it wouldn't be touched ) from said accounts to ease up on the work required of just removing the illegal gear. Heck it would be fair even if they removed the entire shell that any illegal gear is present in also, seems a fitting punishment to me.

 

So really it all comes down to how thorough their logging is and if there is any means for them to identify cheaters.

 

If it's easy then expect some fairly wholesale repercussions to those that cheat. If it's nigh in impossible then expect little to occur other than possible perm bans on those that started all this ( funny how that guild in other areas has the nerve to criticise progression threads because people might be using gear they didn't earn when they are the ones who started this whole tihng and were even selling gear from it ).

 

Banning to me of people who exploited is a waste of time if they just come back to their ill gotten gains. Short bans means nothing, long ban hurts the game on a whole, banning isn't a solution and neither is rewarding honest players with bloody mounts and things as some have suggested - those don't help me run keep up with the cheaters to run content.

 

I can see that you have derived no personal enlightenment from 89 pages of discussion. Oh well. may be another 89 will do it.

 

Your position is not proportional to the events... and is probably the most difficult of options (gear claw-backs) ... but rather you are fixated on your personal moral view personally. Of course the same claim could be made about me I guess. Luckily.... neither you nor I count in the context of the fix and any actions on this exploit.

 

As to the merit comparisons of gear claw-backs vs bans...... at the end of the day... the only commodity of any value a player has (ie: owns) in an MMO is ---> time played. So bans are just as operationally effective as gear claw-backs and probably a lot easier to justify and implement. Freezing players out of game play for some interval of time neutralizes the time leverage they gained by an exploit.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

ANY mass action will have false positives. One false positive induced ban is worse then 100 valid ones IMO. And IF you yourself were a false positive I'm sure you would run over to reddit and start tearing them a new one.

 

Oh the reddit thing again, that's right you're the person who basically thought BW got owned over some bans they did and people kicked up a fuss on reddit. Newsflash - the majority of players don't give a **** about reddit.

 

You assume there would false positives and even if there were there is nothing stopping those players contacting CS and making a case for themselves and if there is accurate logging the error will soon be remedied.

 

Of course I'm only really talking of my own concept of a fix/punishment - banning is a whole other story.

 

In my concept there are VERY few people who could have legitimately got 198 gear ( well under 100 on Harb where this is most prevalent and all started based on progression threads etc. ) and whilst since the exploit more have completed the content many have done so with illegal gear to start with which is why this round of progression is being more or less ignored. So if those who legitimately got gear using illegitimate gear get both their legitimate and illegitimate gear removed - this is not a false positive, they deserved this anyway as the gear wasn't effectively legally earned to begin with.

 

Like I said if they go down the ban path which I'm not in favour of then that's a whole other story and many innocent people could get hit for very little consequence or fix to the issue at hand as a whole.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Banning is the only means of a solution to the majority, more people have left ESO cause of how they did nothing about the duped items, exploited items, and the hurt of the whole entire economy rather than listening to the majority of the population about the matter. An Exploit is an Exploit, they knew what they were doing and knew what the consequences were going to be.

 

Fair enough and that's your opinion but I think my core point regardless of how I feel on banning is the important thing, if possible, is the gear is removed to get us back to where we started before this all happened as much as possible.

 

If nothing is done to remedy all of that then a few bans go out people laugh them off then run around in their 198 gear forever more and the effects that has on the game aren't addressed at all.

[Andryah]

Oh the reddit thing again, that's right you're the person who basically thought BW got owned over some bans they did and people kicked up a fuss on reddit. Newsflash - the majority of players don't give a **** about reddit.

 

You assume there would false positives and even if there were there is nothing stopping those players contacting CS and making a case for themselves and if there is accurate logging the error will soon be remedied.

 

Of course I'm only really talking of my own concept of a fix/punishment - banning is a whole other story.

 

In my concept there are VERY few people who could have legitimately got 198 gear ( well under 100 on Harb where this is most prevalent and all started based on progression threads etc. ) and whilst since the exploit more have completed the content many have done so with illegal gear to start with which is why this round of progression is being more or less ignored. So if those who legitimately got gear using illegitimate gear get both their legitimate and illegitimate gear removed - this is not a false positive, they deserved this anyway as the gear wasn't effectively legally earned to begin with.

 

Like I said if they go down the ban path which I'm not in favour of then that's a whole other story and many innocent people could get hit for very little consequence or fix to the issue at hand as a whole.

 

Nonsense. Stop deflecting. False positives almost always happen in mass actions. And they create much more bad will with players (per incident) then missing the actioning of an offender who escaped detection.

 

It's not about reddit.. which is simply a vehicle that a wrongfully actioned player has at their disposal.. it's about the same thing the righteously indignant are pontificating on ---> fairness. Reddit simply makes the injustice of an incorrect action visible to every player and turns the player base against the company. It also creates a huge mound of illegitimate "pile-ons" by actual guilty parties trying to coat tail as though they too were unfairly actioned.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Andryah

[RocketWoofus]

Sorry, but lets get real here folks. Some have used the exploit once or twice, but there are many who have turned it into a farming industry worth tens of millions of credits. This is not a small thing to wave ones hands or shrug shoulders and hope it goes away. As a crafter who watches prices daily, the items exploited were not directly sellable on the GTN, but the crafted products of them most certainly were. Each Monday night the prices would fall in anticipation of a fix on the Tuesday reset, followed by a flood on the market of the crafted items by Tuesday night at prices almost double that of Monday. There were names on the GTN with 12 to 15 copies of some the items, indicating they not only knew of the exploit, but cashed in on it to the full extent that they could. Similarly, there were nightly general chat calls for the items, both crafted and freshly looted, with the same names appearing over and over. This was not a small, whoopsie, look at that, or even a quick offer to guildies. This was a large scale farming operation by raiding guilds that could get the numbers needed to the right place in the right ways.

 

What can be done about it weeks after the system started, with the raw and crafted items spread through thousands of hands by now is honestly, very little. Any attempt at Justice will be slow, painful, and likely innocent will be hurt along with guilty ones missed. The net effect on game mechanics is minor to modest in that the items made are at least one full tier below the best that can be had. The items help you level or progress to the top faster, but are not the finest. Those that chose not to cheat will take longer to progress, but are not prohibited from progressing.

 

That might be the cruelest punishment of all. Rather than nightly raid calls to pug missing holes in guild runs demanding to see gear and achievements, the raiding groups which exploited the programming error the most must drag along a certain number of pugs who did not exploit, in each of their standard ops runs for a period of weeks, watching them get the loot to bring them up to a comparable level.

 

A more realistic approach might be to make the key items crafted with the exploit be purchasable with comms from the current vendors. By far and away, the most commonly crafted, sold, swapped, or otherwise exploited items are not stateable here, but are obvious to a blind man. Allow them to be purchased with elite or ultimate comms for a modest amount and we have Justice served for the greatest number of players

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I can see that you have derived no personal enlightenment from 89 pages of discussion. Oh well. may be another 89 will do it.

 

Your position is not proportional to the events... and is probably the most difficult of options (gear claw-backs) ... but rather you are fixated on your personal moral view personally. Of course the same claim could be made about me I guess. Luckily.... neither you nor I count in the context of the fix and any actions on this exploit.

 

As to the merit comparisons of gear claw-backs vs bans...... at the end of the day... the only commodity of any value a player has (ie: owns) in an MMO is ---> time played. So bans are just as operationally effective as gear claw-backs and probably a lot easier to justify and implement. Freezing players out of game play for some interval of time neutralizes the time leverage they gained by an exploit.

 

I've gained plenty, I would wager it is those who still feel this isn't that big of a deal ( either because they truly, foolishly think that or because they want to try minimise their own guilt, based on how many people seemingly used this exploit we know there are tons of guilty posters in here ) are the ones lacking on any sort of gained insight or enlightenment as you would put it.

 

Also I certainly don't read all 89 pages, that would be just a nuisance.

 

My position is COMPLETELY proportional. You gained illegal gear - they remove it. How is that not proportional? It's more or less the definition of proportional. If extra gear/etc. goes with then then oh well ... cheating doesn't prosper in that case.

 

As to how hard/easy it would be for them to do ... it's really not for us to say. As I said it really depends on the level of logging they have and how easily any sot of script or what have you could be done to remove said gear from said list of players. Even if they had to do it manually I think their lack of response or early fix on this warrants them putting in the work to do so. Hell you could go exploit this right now if you wanted after they basically announced to everyone there was an exploit - amateur mistake that as now everyone will be off googling etc. trying to figure out what it is. Thought it could be that more people have done this than have not in which case they may have deemed it worth announcing to settle the honest players down a bit but if they are able to track those sorts of numbers it means they are indeed tracking cheaters and we could see an interesting Tuesday after all.

 

Any time leverage from a ban would depend on the amount of time. 1 week = 1 lockout, anything less is just a waste and even though I want the cheaters to face some form of punishement, due to the massive amounts that seem to have done this it would seem any bans would hurt the innocent even further in terms of running content and then the cheaters come back with their gear anyway. I don't see that as any solution personally.

[grombrinda]

Sorry, but lets get real here folks. Some have used the exploit once or twice, but there are many who have turned it into a farming industry worth tens of millions of credits. This is not a small thing to wave ones hands or shrug shoulders and hope it goes away. As a crafter who watches prices daily, the items exploited were not directly sellable on the GTN, but the crafted products of them most certainly were. Each Monday night the prices would fall in anticipation of a fix on the Tuesday reset, followed by a flood on the market of the crafted items by Tuesday night at prices almost double that of Monday. There were names on the GTN with 12 to 15 copies of some the items, indicating they not only knew of the exploit, but cashed in on it to the full extent that they could. Similarly, there were nightly general chat calls for the items, both crafted and freshly looted, with the same names appearing over and over. This was not a small, whoopsie, look at that, or even a quick offer to guildies. This was a large scale farming operation by raiding guilds that could get the numbers needed to the right place in the right ways.

 

What can be done about it weeks after the system started, with the raw and crafted items spread through thousands of hands by now is honestly, very little. Any attempt at Justice will be slow, painful, and likely innocent will be hurt along with guilty ones missed. The net effect on game mechanics is minor to modest in that the items made are at least one full tier below the best that can be had. The items help you level or progress to the top faster, but are not the finest. Those that chose not to cheat will take longer to progress, but are not prohibited from progressing.

 

That might be the cruelest punishment of all. Rather than nightly raid calls to pug missing holes in guild runs demanding to see gear and achievements, the raiding groups which exploited the programming error the most must drag along a certain number of pugs who did not exploit, in each of their standard ops runs for a period of weeks, watching them get the loot to bring them up to a comparable level.

 

A more realistic approach might be to make the key items crafted with the exploit be purchasable with comms from the current vendors. By far and away, the most commonly crafted, sold, swapped, or otherwise exploited items are not stateable here, but are obvious to a blind man. Allow them to be purchased with elite or ultimate comms for a modest amount and we have Justice served for the greatest number of players

 

This is why I keep saying that the easiest fix to the problem was that they turned off the ops as soon as they found out until they got a fix in. Hoping your player base doesn't abuse it is wishful thinking ..... Everything he stated above is happening now !

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Nonsense. Stop deflecting. False positives almost always happen in mass actions. And they create much more bad will with players (per incident) then missing the actioning of an offender who escaped detection.

 

That's B/S - the only nonsense here is you pushing forward your opinions as fact based on what? Your previous comments around a few reddit ragers and a few innocent people got banned that didn't deserve it? Were you even aware of how that occured? Was it automated or human error? Regardless luckily I'm anti the banning action.

 

You've not shown how any gear removal could affect even a minute portion of the honest players in your comments so don't act like I'm the one deflecting when you can't address the actual point I made.

 

It's not about reddit.. which is simply a vehicle that a wrongfully actioned player has at their disposal.. it's about the same thing the righteously indignant are pontificating on ---> fairness. Reddit simply makes the injustice of an incorrect action visible to every player and turns the player base against the company. It also creates a huge mound of illegitimate "pile-ons" by actual guilty parties trying to coat tail as though they too were unfairly actioned.

 

As I said, reddit users are a minority. There are more players from the community on the forums. All reddit really serves is a means to get around community rules in some posting content ( though it has been rather useful in this case in actually naming and shaming those truly responsible for this beyond Bioware themselves ).

 

Even if they removed ALL token 198 gear from everyone the portion of players that legally gained that gear and would cry about it would be rather small ( well under 100 as I said ) and more than a comfortable number for CS to deal with and give back their gear after some quick investigations as to when content was completed and in what gear and where it may have come from.

 

If you think this number is too low then back up your point of view instead of posting unsubstantiated words of "nonsense" or "deflecting", it comes across as quite unintelligent and lazy.

[AMulls]

Sorry but from my experience you're wrong and from what I can see you are backing up your own stand point against Khevar with nothing more than opinion and what you THINK occurs.

 

SNIP....

 

Thank you. This was a well reasoned and well thought out response.

 

I respectfully disagree, on a few things, though. Your own personal experience may or may not be indicative of the overall situation. Just as what I THINK occurs, you THINK (based on your own experience alone, and maybe Khevar's) that it's a rampant issue. Granting you that for a moment, let's go a little deeper. The affect you point out would only really happen if many many people were taking advantage of the exploit. Which likely would have only been the case relatively recently, as knowledge and use of the exploit has gone viral. And then possibly only on certain servers, as many folks claim to still have no knowledge of the exploit and how it works. If that is the case, then your problems are solved on Tuesday when everything resets again, no worse for wear.

 

And again, I'll point out that if the number of people in this thread alone who claim to not have used the exploit nor associate with anyone who has, is a proper sampling of the game population as a whole, then there should be plenty of people available with whom you can run the raids. And while we're really getting in depth, if the exploiters are really only after the gear, then they would only have the lockout on the HM OPs. Meaning they are still very much available to run the SM OPs. Not to mention TUXs point earlier that you actually get better comms by running the 55 Ops. Which, to my understanding, are not exploitable at this time. So, if your main issue is that you can't raid at all, then I'd beg to differ. You still have plenty of options to raid. And if it's specific to the two new OPs, then you still should have plenty of people with whom to run it, at least on story mode. Which, if you don't have the proper gear, is where you should be at this point anyway. Again, either way, your problems are all solved on Tuesday. So, at worst, you've been inconvenienced slightly for a few days.

 

And yes, Eric called it an exploit. But as has been pointed out above, he said that it CAN result in punishment at BW's discretion, not that it necessarily WILL. I don't think anyone would argue that it isn't an exploit. If it is really affecting players in a negative way, then BW should have shut it down as soon as they discovered how rampant it was. I'm not blaming BW for the actions of the players, but they could have put a stop to it much sooner, and have chosen not to. This, to me, indicates that it isn't affecting game play in any really measurable way. But that is an inference based on the information at hand.

 

You can say that they have affected your game play all you want. If this exploit is really ruining your gameplay experience then, by all means, submit a ticket with the evidence of how you've been affected. I couldn't get a group for one specific Operation this week, because everyone is locked out, is a pretty minor complaint don't you think? You can still run any other operation, FP, or you can PVP, run dailies, or do any other content in the game.

 

I can't control how people will feel about what's happened any more than I can control how people feel or react to anything the bothers or offends them in real life. All I can do is think rationally about how it really and truly has affected me. And since I rarely, if ever, raid, I can very easily tell BW that the exploit has not affected me in any way. Is my opinion lesser than yours because I don't raid? Or can we agree that as paying customers we are both entitled to feel however we want about the situation?

 

As for the crafting, I think that "advantage" has been greatly overstated as well. If these people are going in for gear, then they are going to use the gear. They aren't going to RE it to learn a schematic. And as has been noted multiple times, the prices on the materials have been lowered which actually helps the general population. If the hardcore raiders, who would normally be the ones to have the mats and sell them, are the only ones using the exploit, then wouldn't they be only hurting themselves by flooding the market? Since the top end gear (198) is not, to my knowledge, even craftable at all yet, that lends even less weight to your argument regarding crafting. As for hurting me as a 186 crafter, no, that hasn't hurt me at all. Why? Because the prices on the lower tier have never been competitive with the higher stuff. People who don't raid are generally more than happy to purchase the lower tier (186) gear. And if I do happen to learn a 192 schematic, the lower price on the mats I need to actually craft it is extremely helpful.

 

The market hasn't been crashed either. One small sector of the market has seen an increase in supply. That is not a market crash by any means. A market crash would be what happened in 1929 or 2007. This is more like the price of oil dropping because the supply has been increased.

 

Bottom line is that if people really are being affected seriously by this exploit, then BW should have ended the exploit ASAP, not made it public and then push a fix for almost a week. And I lend very little credence to the "but it's wrong and they knew it was wrong when they did it" for the simple reason that this is a game. We all do many things in this game that we would never do in real life. And not necessarily for fear of punishment, but because it is, in fact just wrong. But this is a game. It's not real life. If you're really that upset by what other people do in a game, then step away from the keyboard and go do something else for a bit until Tuesday when everything is fixed, one way or another.

[Neoforcer]

 

You've not shown how any gear removal could affect even a minute portion of the honest players in your comments so don't act like I'm the one deflecting when you can't address the actual point I made.

 

I bought my pve set off the GTN now because people used said bug to craft that gear and my gear gets taken away. That i used hard earn credits to buy. I should be punished because others did wrong right this is what happens when you open the can of warms your asking BW to do. False positive happens back in the day when the game first came out people got banned over a ilum valor issue. BW banned a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the issue and later had to take back the bans because they realized there mistake. There logs cant even tell if you had a item if you deleted it and ask fora restore most of the time they tell you they cant find it. So you want them to randomly delete gear when they have issue even restoring gear that you accidentally deleted. great idea