regarding punishment for exploit

[Jerba]

You want them to permaban Zorz? Gosh you're retarded Jerba.

No, of course not. Zorz did not spread the exploit, another guild stole the lockout from them. I won't name that guild since naming and shaming is forbidden, but I did put in tickets and hope Bioware will take necessary action against that guild.

 

Like I wrote in my previous posts, it is unlikely that they'll be able to remove all ill-gotten gear. Nevertheless, it is great to have a place to vent the frustration for seeing players exploit, and showing the dev team that there are players who find it unfair when exploiters are left unpunished.

Hopefully, they'll learn to not take a vacation this long again in the future. Exploits like this need to be fixed within a week of being discovered.

My only hope is that they'll take the necessary steps to save PvE progression, including:

• Introducing a new gear tier that makes 198 gear and mats obsolete, or put the mats up cheaply on the jawa scrap vendors
  
• Putting out a SM/HM operation before we get Ravagers/ToS nightmare, or severly nerf HM so that players can get 198 gear faster. Otherwise, nightmare progression will be overshadowed by this exploit.
  

Edited January 9, 2015 by Jerba

[NemuriKyoshiro]

Holy **** you guys.

 

60 pages of useless conjecture? *********** why?

 

Because the crowd is bored and wants a show. A good juicy public hanging.

And Popcorn.

 

Nothing new, ever since the Colosseum was still working.

[btmart]

The drama people want drama, and that is the entire point of this thread, minus a few points of clarity.

 

Glad I'm not a forum moderator anymore. Had enough of this crap moderating theforce.net's Classic Trilogy forum when the last round od DVD's we released and everyone screamed about the OOOOOOOOOOT not getting a 1080p version. Go cry your eyes out drama trolls. You entice argument for the sake of argument. Likely nothing will happen based on so many other factors.

 

Move along, move along.

Edited January 9, 2015 by btmart

[RandomXChance]

No, of course not. Zorz did not spread the exploit, another guild stole the lockout from them. I won't name that guild since naming and shaming is forbidden, but I did put in tickets and hope Bioware will take necessary action against that guild.

 

It is mostly rumor, but by everything I have heard it was less "stole" and more of "shhhh...don't tell anyone else!". We all know how well that works out!

Edited January 9, 2015 by RandomXChance

[KingFink]

No, of course not. Zorz did not spread the exploit, another guild stole the lockout from them. I won't name that guild since naming and shaming is forbidden, but I did put in tickets and hope Bioware will take necessary action against that guild.

 

Nasty little other guildses, they stole it from us!

 

Our lockout...our exploit....our....pre...cioussssssssssssssssssss

[DawnAskham]

It is mostly rumor, but by everything I have heard it was less "stole" and more of "shhhh...don't tell anyone else!". We all know how well that works out!

 

Yeah I keep hearing 'stole' but sharing a lockout with a 'don't share with anyone else' or 'hey, wanna see something interesting' isn't the same thing as say having an account or the game hacked to get the lockout.

 

So unless there is some other exploit which allows people not in ones group to 'steal' lockouts from others, or unless someone did in fact hack a member of the original group for the lock out, it wasn't stolen, it was shared.

 

As such, any punishment for this issue should start with the person or persons who shared the original lock out.

Edited January 9, 2015 by DawnAskham

[Sashandra]

Nasty little other guildses, they stole it from us!

 

Our lockout...our exploit....our....pre...cioussssssssssssssssssss

 

you sir win this thread

[btmart]

Not to say I did this at all, but isn't it our JOB as gamers to figure out bugs to use them as a 1up? I mean c'mon, lets go back to Nintendo, and how many of us used ^^vv<><>ba? How many of us figured out the trick on Super Mario Bros. on Level 3-4? (I think) where you jump on the turtle on the mountain stack to get unlimited 1up's? This is a bug just the same as back in the day. It was reported in PTS, yet they went live with it anyway. Quit making such a big deal about this. Hey they got a 1up, and shame on you Bioware. You got caught with your pants down. You can't blame the gamers.

 

However, those who sold it... that's pretty shameful.

[LadyVix]

Either way, in order to permaban the people who had the lockout originally like Jerba wants, they'd have to include top raiders in that, which Eric will never do.

 

Are you implying that those people are immune to having to answer for their misdeeds? They're players like everyone else, but as knolwdgeable veterans they should have been setting a higher standard rather than greedily using their knowledge to give them an even bigger advantage over others. They knew that what they were doing was wrong. It's time for them to answer for it.

 

Many posters seem to think that Bioware should follow the errors in their past and let these people go, but NOW is the time to draw the line and clearly state that this type of nonsense will NOT be tolerated in this game. A strict and decisive rebuke will send a clear message that the "do what you want" days are over, and will deter players from doing this again in the future.

 

So Bioware loses $15 on your subscription, is that going to send them into bankruptcy? I doubt it. The exploiters in this case are generally the highest cost players, the people that powerlevel to cap in 2 hrs, exploit their way to top tier gear in 2 weeks, then demand more content be released to satisfy their thirst to consume more content. Beyond that, they've cost Bioware a lot of money in having to undo this train wreck. Bioware loses precious man hours fixing player induced problems when the staff could have been working on other pressing issues like bugs and lag. I can pretty much guarantee that the cost of fixing the damage from this well exceeds the $15 per month these people pay.

[CommanderKeeva]

Ok, well, after thinking about the problem for a while, here's what I've been able to come up with, how the situation should be handled. Based on the severity of taking advantage of the exploit, Bioware could categorize people into several groups.

 

1. People accidentally stumbled into it or may have been tricked or convinced into trying it.

2. People who heard about it and tried it out of curiosity.

3. People who heard about it, tried it and decided to farm the gear/mats to shorten the gearing process.

4. People who activately capitalized on the exploit by offering lockouts for money or materials.

 

You can't give out equal punishment to all of them, since some people might not even be guilty. (If they found the exploit by accident.) My opinion is that taking advantage of the exploit to obtain STORY MODE gear should not be punished in any way, as long as those who did it, did it for themselves and did not capitalize on the bug by selling lockouts on the fleet. The reason for this is that 192 gear is so common that it can't all be realistically traced back to their source, especially if the offenders had done the operation in the proper way as well and possess the corresponding achievements. And anyways, they gave out zero punishment for obtaining Nightmare Mode gear from Nefra and that bug was in the game for much longer. In short, it's nigh impossible to identify who cheated to get Story Mode gear, so don't even bother.

 

As for HARD MODE gear, it should be much easier to track. Just look at the achievements. Anyone who has a 16man HM achievement for Coratanni but not any of the bosses before her should be flagged as a suspect and be subject to further investigation. If they're found guilty on multiple accounts (as in they didn't just stumble in there or were tricked into doing it), they should receive an infraction or warning, telling them of the possible consequences of exploiting bugs in the future. If they can positively identify unassembled tokens or crafting mats in their inventory, remove them. If they have crafted mods or enhancements from the crafting mats but belong in categories 1-3, give them the benefit of the doubt, since those can be acquired from other ways as well.

 

People who actively capitalized on the bug and helped spread knowledge of the exploit by selling lockouts should be relatively easy to identify, just read through all the boring fleet chat logs. They are the most egregious offenders and should be given the harshest punishment. Give them a temporary account suspension of maybe a week, remove all tokens, crafting mats and crafted items that they have made without giving them the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately GTN sales can't be punished, since the buyer almost certainly had no idea he had been purchasing crafted items from an illegitimate source. Credits likewise can't be deducted because even cheaters could have obtained credits via legitimate means. Suggestions like permanent bans, removing all gear, crafting mats and/or all credits are completely disproportionate and ridiculous. Raiders are generally the most active players in the game, they have the largest vested interest, they spend the most credits, craft the most items and spend the most money on CM stuff. Losing them permanently is not something Bioware would ever risk.

 

The relative leniency I propose is not coming from the fact that I or my friends cheated or that I believe that cheaters should prosper, simply from the fact that the problem was allowed to fester for so long. Besides, the far more serious issue of ranked PvP rating trading, which (unlike PvE gear that is obtainable by everyone indefinitely) was meant to increase the chances of getting one-time only, exclusive rewards, has never been addressed in any way.

 

Let's face it, Bioware borked this big time for letting the issue build up to this point, so really will you blame the kid who steals the cookies from the open cookie jar left on the counter? It is the responsibility of the parent, first and foremost, to make sure that such situations never arise or if they do, they're handled in a timely manner. Most of the blame is on Bioware here for their gross negligence.

Edited January 9, 2015 by CommanderKeeva

[KTap]

Yeah I keep hearing 'stole' but sharing a lockout with a 'don't share with anyone else' or 'hey, wanna see something interesting' isn't the same thing as say having an account or the game hacked to get the lockout.

 

So unless there is some other exploit which allows people not in ones group to 'steal' lockouts from others, or unless someone did in fact hack a member of the original group for the lock out, it wasn't stolen, it was shared.

 

As such, any punishment for this issue should start with the person or persons who shared the original lock out.

 

Let's pretend it was you who had the lockout, for argument's sake. You have no knowledge about said exploit at this time.

 

If you got an invite from someone in another guild, who you've done operations with before and trust (to an extent), would you not accept their group invite and see what was up?

 

I'd bet the majority of people would accept that invite, including you.

 

Does this person sound like they should be punished? I don't think so.

 

The people abusing it on a massive scale should be punished.

 

Also, Bioware should have disabled the loot from this boss weeks ago before it got so bad. That's all they had to do, disable the loot on one boss.

Edited January 9, 2015 by KTap

[merovejec]

I would take away all credits for the peoples toons. That is a very neutral move since u will have 0 credits which need to be gained back again. Its not a thing which will make people quit and it will also give them a lesson. I think this would be the best move, yes it may not be that aggresive or harsh but still banning and other stuff will only hurt the game.

[CommanderKeeva]

Many posters seem to think that Bioware should follow the errors in their past and let these people go, but NOW is the time to draw the line and clearly state that this type of nonsense will NOT be tolerated in this game. A strict and decisive rebuke will send a clear message that the "do what you want" days are over, and will deter players from doing this again in the future.

 

How about a strict and decisive hotfix next time instead of a strict and decisive punishment? The clear message Bioware should be sending should be "We are going to address exploits in a timely fashion." instead of "We're permabanning everyone who took advantage of our negligence."

 

Will you hang the kid who steals cookies from the jar or will you tell the parent not to leave it open on the counter for so goddamn long next time?

Edited January 9, 2015 by CommanderKeeva

[Perj]

It is as much the players responsibility to fight exploiting as it is Bioware's. Bioware was very slow responding to this exploit (the op loot exploit and several others that simplify HM boss fights) but players also have the responsibility to not condone exploiting in guilds, groups and operations. Speak up, leave groups that use exploits, do not join guilds who allow the use of exploits, if you feel strongly about the usage of exploits in this game. Personally, I actually care very little about usage of exploits unless I am present when players discuss them, propose to use them, or by pass the intended game mechanics. It is up to us to define what is acceptable and what is not, not just Bioware. Edited January 9, 2015 by Perj

[btmart]

Bioware is to blame for this. It was a known issue PTS. It was reported in PTS. It was released live with this issue. It *should* be considered "working as intended" until stated otherwise, which it was. It was stated. Bioware plans a fix and when that fix is in place, the issue should be over and resolved and the end of the forum drama.

 

And enough with the big government (in game) policy changes. Wait until those changes affect you.

Edited January 9, 2015 by btmart

[KingFink]

The exploiters in this case are generally the highest cost players, the people that powerlevel to cap in 2 hrs, exploit their way to top tier gear in 2 weeks, then demand more content be released to satisfy their thirst to consume more content.

 

What we have here, is the case of a common "RaiderH8ER"

 

Now, let me fix your quote so that it's more correct to the current situation:

 

The exploiters in this case are generally 80%+ of some servers populations.

 

You can deny this all you want, but it is how it is.

[btmart]

I would take away all credits for the peoples toons. That is a very neutral move since u will have 0 credits which need to be gained back again. Its not a thing which will make people quit and it will also give them a lesson. I think this would be the best move, yes it may not be that aggresive or harsh but still banning and other stuff will only hurt the game.

 

And if that was done, how many people would leave the game? Answer: A hell of a lot. If I were to come in to find out my account was devastated over a minor infraction, this ship would sail, for any reason. So would a crap-ton of other sub's and Raid members. They tend to stick together.

[SebastiaanZ]

They are not gonna ban exploiters ... it would mean losing customers and Bioware cannot afford that.

 

Not that I have any idea what the exploit is lol, as far as I am aware I did no such thing.

[btmart]

You have to watch the FA trailer 35 times straight, then the exploit will be presented to you as an Easter Egg. Edited January 9, 2015 by btmart

[Rafaman]

So first... to say simply that this is all on BW is missing the point. But there is an idea out there that exploits are somehow excusable ways to work the system because the devs are at fault. Not so... all who helped themselves knew it was wrong. But it was ok because other people were doing it or because there is lag or because the Op is bugged or <insert excuse here>.

 

Now, the thing about exploits like this, is that they are positively reinforced because there is rarely any consequences. I doubt seriously that BW will proactively punish the offenders given the size and breadth of the pop involved. And so... next time an issue like this comes up no one gives it a second thought.

 

I like the ideal of positive reinforcement. Give those that didn't take part something for being golden.

[Transcendent]

And if that was done, how many people would leave the game? Answer: A hell of a lot. If I were to come in to find out my account was devastated over a minor infraction, this ship would sail, for any reason. So would a crap-ton of other sub's and Raid members. They tend to stick together.

 

So it's a case of collectively failing to read the Terms of Service then as raiders?

 

11. Rules of Conduct

 

You may violate the Terms of Service if, as determined by EA in its sole discretion, you:

 

- Promote, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or virtual currency/items

- Abuse or exploit bugs, undocumented features, design errors or problems in the game.

 

So not only do the players who have abused this exploit gained BiS gear, within a time frame that really defeats the purpose of an MMO and progression. Those said raiders have also spread the exploit to others in the playerbase for credits / currency.

 

It's not just one part of the ToS that have been broken here, and yes, there is a much wider picture to look at. The raiders who have done this are meant to be some of our peers in this game, the ones we look up to for figuring out the mechanics of the fights in new raids.

 

You know what I see now? Nothing good.

 

I hope BioWare DO make an example of the players who have abused the exploit for ill-gotten gains. As for the threat of leaving the game? Good-bye and good luck. Why should anyone or any company be held in sway by players who have no respect for the community or the game developers?

Edited January 9, 2015 by Transcendent

[CommanderKeeva]

I like the ideal of positive reinforcement. Give those that didn't take part something for being golden.

 

Should we get a shiny medal each time we choose not to commit a crime? IMO, normal behavior shouldn't be rewarded, well, because it's normal. Those who "chose" not to take advantage of the exploit, didn't do anything special. In fact, I'd guess that the overwhelming majority of the players (low-level F2P) didn't even know about it much less even care. Your "reward" for not choosing to participate in sinful behavior should be a warm feeling of integrity and dignity.

[KingFink]

As for the threat of leaving the game? Good-bye and good luck. Why should anyone or any company be held in sway by players who have no respect for the community or the game developers?

 

You've never run a very large business before, have you?

 

You don't need peoples respect. You just need their money.

[Transcendent]

You've never run a very large business before, have you?

 

You don't need peoples respect. You just need their money.

 

Don't make assumptions about other people.

[Jerba]

Should we get a shiny medal each time we choose not to commit a crime? IMO, normal behavior shouldn't be rewarded, well, because it's normal. Those who "chose" not to take advantage of the exploit, didn't do anything special. In fact, I'd guess that the overwhelming majority of the players (low-level F2P) didn't even know about it much less even care. Your "reward" for not choosing to participate in sinful behavior should be a warm feeling of integrity and dignity.

No one's saying that they should do this for every exploit from now on, but this exploit is the biggest loot exploit we've had so far in the game, and I don't think we'll ever get one nearly as grave, so they could definitely reward players this very time.

The alternative of punishing players seems not practicable, and not doing anything creates more problems in the long run when players feel they can expect no punishment for exploiting.