Emperor-Norton's everything wrong with Sent/Mara thread

[cs_zoltan]

your answer calling me a child who are always right and others are wrong is exactly wath you are doing or you don't even read your own?

 

Nice try, but no. Because me (and Norton and pretty much everyone else) back up my claim, not like you who just says I don't like it so it's idiotic...

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

Nice try, but no. Because me (and Norton and pretty much everyone else) back up my claim, not like you who just says I don't like it so it's idiotic...

1. It's not fine.
   
2. I rather listen to Norton who contributed a lot to the Marauder community than you.
   

if that isnt saying that only he should be listen then wath it is..... keep trying please

[Delta_V]

Then why the hell are some asking to put predation on cd?the current way its fine........

The truth is many of the dumb suggestion made are from players who have no idea what are they saying and seems also by other class players who simply dont want sentinel fixed.

Again this stubborn people need understand , predation on cd is a horrible idea.

 

What don't you understand about the fact that using Transcendence instead of Zen gimps your dps?

 

Our dps is competitive with other advanced classes when we use Zen. When we are forced to use Transcendence instead, yes, it helps keep us on target, but our dps takes a hit that the class simply cannot afford right now. This is especially true for Concentration and Watchman. For Concentration, not only is Zen used for its biggest hit, the discipline's entire rotation is built around the Focus generated from Zen; using Transcendence not only hurts its burst, it completely messes up its entire rotation. For Watchman, the auto-crit dots from Zen give the spec some desperately needed burst, and the heals also help with survivability. For those two specs, spamming Transcendence is simply not a viable option. Oh, and with the nerf to Precision's duration, the alacrity from Zen is necessary to alleviate the nerf to the discipline's burst.

 

That is why people want to separate Transcendence from the Centering system. They want to be able to use our best anti-kiting tool without gimping our dps. And if it's off the Centering system, the simplest alternative is to have a separate CD.

 

 

 

Oh, and just an fyi, calling people stupid is a really, really good way to get people to ignore everything you say. So if you want people to actually listen to your arguments, yeah, not the best idea.

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

You can't buff Transcendence to make it be better at combating snares so long as it is so spammable. You can use it back to back for 20 seconds of uptime and have it up every 10-15 seconds if you are being attacked with Defensive Forms (0-5 seconds cd going by your logic). Now that I think about it, giving Marauders in general a 10 meter slow and root and healing debuff is rather silly. Carnage only really needs some form of Ranged Root (ala Crippling Throw), Watchman needs some kind of root ignore on Leap + a root with Force Melt, while Fury is generally fine as is for controlling an opponent. What Maras need is a way to counter the ability for a PT to use Hydraulics to keep you at 8 meter range, or a Sorc to Force Speed away, knockback root you, and cast while doing it. All classes got a mobility buff of some kind in 3.0, Maras didn't. Maras have a natural ability to fill that void in Predation, but it is locked up by being attached to Centering. If you were immune to snares while active it would go a huge way to fixing the problem Maras have in PvP: They are easy as pie to control and have no counter to snares besides Force Camo which is also used for 15 different things. Anyone who doesn't see this is just blind. And attaching a movement bonus to anything other than a movement ability is idiotic. I pop Rebuke to lessen damage, not because I want to avoid CC.

 

Also, next time instead of just saying "I don't like this", actually give a decent reason with some thought behind it. Instead of saying you don't like it and therefore your word is better than people that are far more accomplished and respected than you.

 

If you read me correctly, no one in any high quality raiding guild outside of a very few diehards it anymore. For the simple fact that they destroyed the Annihilation rotation that made just about everyone abandon the AC, and with the current content the spec is terrible at staying on a boss. And the one special thing it did besides Trans, other classes can do.

sorry to say but seems more like you simply don't like new watchman so your dye it as if its the devil, and your insist on transcendence having a cd when its no need, and please spare me the arrogance about others have accomplished more than me and etc, i never said my word being better than other you are the one assuming that, that fact you are active on forum and making guides, and only a couple agree with your changes is blinding you, thinking we all should just listen wath you say and other opinions dont matter.

[Emperor-Norton]

if that isnt saying that only he should be listen then wath it is..... keep trying please

He said that he would rather listen to me instead of you. Let me put this in very simple terms so you may understand.

Me > You

You seem to think he said.

Me > Everyone

No, he didn't say that. He said Me > You. So I have to say this and stop ****posting in my thread please. You are scaring off people who would have good information to contribute.

 

You also missed this:

Also, next time instead of just saying "I don't like this", actually give a decent reason with some thought behind it. Instead of saying you don't like it and therefore your word is better than people that are far more accomplished and respected than you.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

He said that he would rather listen to me instead of you. Let me put this in very simple terms so you may understand.

Me > You

You seem to think he said.

Me > Everyone

No, he didn't say that. He said Me > You. So I have to say this and stop ****posting in my thread please. You are scaring off people who would have good information to contribute.

 

You also missed this:

i got that point he rather listen to you, and thanks for calling me idiot you are such a nice guy. and am i scaring people who would have information to contribute or the people which you need to support you? dude don't be dramatic. and dont be an idiot calling ***** to wath others say, if you dont like your problem but show some education at least or chose better words instead. Edited January 14, 2015 by Zez-Kai-Ell

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

What don't you understand about the fact that using Transcendence instead of Zen gimps your dps?

 

Our dps is competitive with other advanced classes when we use Zen. When we are forced to use Transcendence instead, yes, it helps keep us on target, but our dps takes a hit that the class simply cannot afford right now. This is especially true for Concentration and Watchman. For Concentration, not only is Zen used for its biggest hit, the discipline's entire rotation is built around the Focus generated from Zen; using Transcendence not only hurts its burst, it completely messes up its entire rotation. For Watchman, the auto-crit dots from Zen give the spec some desperately needed burst, and the heals also help with survivability. For those two specs, spamming Transcendence is simply not a viable option. Oh, and with the nerf to Precision's duration, the alacrity from Zen is necessary to alleviate the nerf to the discipline's burst.

 

That is why people want to separate Transcendence from the Centering system. They want to be able to use our best anti-kiting tool without gimping our dps. And if it's off the Centering system, the simplest alternative is to have a separate CD.

 

 

 

Oh, and just an fyi, calling people stupid is a really, really good way to get people to ignore everything you say. So if you want people to actually listen to your arguments, yeah, not the best idea.

 

show me a post where i call stupid to specifically to someone, i dint mentioned nay name unless you are felling in that position.Your stubborn in wanting change transcendence to a cd is funny. ther is others way to fix this issue but you argue on put skill on cd, when in fact that others class will have to be nerfed, this suggestions are being made without consider what need to be changed on the others.

And i dont recall saying alacrity is not need now on combat due the nerf on precision, ofc its need....

[cs_zoltan]

He said that he would rather listen to me instead of you. Let me put this in very simple terms so you may understand.

Me > You

You seem to think he said.

Me > Everyone

No, he didn't say that. He said Me > You. So I have to say this and stop ****posting in my thread please. You are scaring off people who would have good information to contribute.

 

You also missed this:

 

See this is 1 reason out thousands why he is more credible than you Zez. He actually understands english

[Emperor-Norton]

i got that point he rather listen to you, and thanks for calling me idiot you are such a nice guy. and am i scaring people who would have information to contribute or the people which you need to support you? dude don't be dramatic.

Considering your entire presence here has been entirely negative instead of constructive, you lack of any ability to communicate any helpful information with your "assertions", and you have spent a lot of your time strangely trying to undermine me, I standby what I said. I spent the time to create this thread to start discussion on possible changes to help the class and offer my ideas on how to make things better, and allow people to constructively criticize and critique them. While I will admit that there are times where I do get aggressive and frustrated in discussing, I generally try to stick to laying out my reasoning and my logic.

 

To anyone reading this thread, I would still very much like to hear peoples feedback or other possible ideas they may have for the Class.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[Delta_V]

show me a post where i call stupid to specifically to someone, i dint mentioned nay name unless you are felling in that position.Your stubborn in wanting change transcendence to a cd is funny. ther is others way to fix this issue but you argue on put skill on cd, when in fact that others class will have to be nerfed, this suggestions are being made without consider what need to be changed on the others.

And i dont recall saying alacrity is not need now on combat due the nerf on precision, ofc its need....

 

You said the people you were arguing with were stubborn, didn't know what they were talking about, and all of their suggestions were dumb, without actually addressing any of their points.

 

So meh, close enough.

 

And you keep saying there are other ways to fix the problems with Transcendence being tied to Centering, so do you admit there is a problem there? And if so, do you actually have a solution? Because the other people in this thread are at least trying to come up with solutions, even if they are imperfect. All I have seen you do is call their ideas stupid without actually contributing anything to solving the problem. None of your ideas had anything to do with making Transcendence a more viable ability.

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

You said the people you were arguing with were stubborn, didn't know what they were talking about, and all of their suggestions were dumb, without actually addressing any of their points.

 

So meh, close enough.

 

And you keep saying there are other ways to fix the problems with Transcendence being tied to Centering, so do you admit there is a problem there? And if so, do you actually have a solution? Because the other people in this thread are at least trying to come up with solutions, even if they are imperfect. All I have seen you do is call their ideas stupid without actually contributing anything to solving the problem. None of your ideas had anything to do with making Transcendence a more viable ability.

lets put this way: have you had problems on your dps before 3.0? cause before 3.0 i dont recall marauders having dps problems.

Yes i have give some in other tread. like first 5 sec +- rebuke give you immunity to slow, roots, knock backs, the class had always this problem but 3.0 make it worse cause other got too much buffs, and what make you say the solution its change transcendence? sorc is 20/15 sec cd on speed, pt/vg technical is 15 sec since d is 30 but last 15 sec +-, you want make transcendence like others more or less? tell me then if its bad or good if during transcendence you would get this immunity? and to put on a cd then it had to be a fair cd compared with others, and lets not taking into consideration just cause is group buff then that means it had to be a relatively bigger then the other speed buff, and lets also take into consideration the cd between snares other class have like pt and sorc, and how they apply those snares.

For combat what about making blade rush applying a slow?

but yes in the end we still have more then ever a big issue against slows etc.

or maybe we have to wait for inc nerfs for this classes to balance te class according the last changes that will be applied in 3.1.

hope this is more helpful then so you don't call me negative or not helping at all, no hard feelings from my part so...

Edited January 14, 2015 by Zez-Kai-Ell

[QuiveringPotato]

You cant even use the english language properly... Please, stop being a waste of the internet and do something more profitable. It will free up more bandwith for people who actually can use the English language properly.

 

As for getting back to the thread. I completely agree with Trancendance off the Fury/Centering system. In fact, why do we need Centering/Fury in the first place? just put Berserk on a 30s - 45s cooldown, and remove Fury/Centering! Less hassle on our parts, and makes our rotations more fluent and less subject to RNG.

 

The Fury/Centering mechanic is the main thing that differentiates Marauders/Sents from Juggs/Guardians (other than 2 sabers). Let's not remove that, please.

Edited January 14, 2015 by QuiveringPotato

[Drevv]

I agree with the original poster of this thread. I have retired my Mara from raiding as well since the mechanics certainly seem to favor ranged classes or those that have some significant AOE built in. One thing I would like to see since pretty much most other classes/specs have this built in is Procs. I am well aware that various tree's in Mara have procs but I think ours need to be re-evaluated. Anni certainly needs some review on that. I would say more but I'm sure there are better ideas out there that have been posted.

[Ardarell_Solo]

The problem with making it cost any Fury is it always costs potential damage, and it requires you to happen to have Centering whenever you may need to use it.

 

I see what you mean, but on the other hand Predation is just to good a (group) buff to be "free". What about 10 Fury and a 60sec Cooldown? You'd sacrifice some extra DPS from Berserk but not too much: 2.5 focus spenders and you have those 10 fury back.

 

Somehow I doubt Devs will give away Predation "for free", so lower fury cost and a mid CD could be a good compromise...

 

Also stop attacking EN, he's Supreme Sent and generally one of the most sophisticated players the game has seen. His contributions to the state of the class have always been very well thought out and helped the AC immensely in the past. We'll be in a good spot by elaborating on his ideas and concepts together, so stop the kindergarden, willya!

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[waterboytkd]

Emperor-Norton

 

Coming back to the conversation on pages 3 and 4, about Carnage re: Gore, as a long-time Carnage player, I was thinking about the design of this spec now that Fury has shown up as the "mobile burst" spec, and I thought to myself, "Where the heck does that leave Carnage?"

 

I do think the spec is suffering a sort of identity crisis at the moment. After your suggestion about Gore, I started thinking more about how you could bring its sustained damage up while bringing its burst down, and I kept coming to the same conclusion: not "less" Gore, but more Gore coupled with no auto-crits (except the set bonus, obviously).

 

What if Execute consuming a Towering Rage didn't give you an auto-crit with Force Scream/DB, but rather had another benefit? Like, what if it extended your Gore window by another 1.5 seconds instead (essentially making the ability "free" in the Gore window, or even net positive time with alacrity)?

 

Again, Carnage still needs to have its rotation thickened, if only slightly. Keep DB and FS on separate cooldowns, and you basically end up with 2 "free Gore time" abilities. Gore is still great, but since you're not lining up auto-crits for it, it's not as potent with the 100% armor penetration.

 

And though I know a number of people aren't thrilled with the 3 second Gore, with this change, it wouldn't be as bad, and with the lack of auto-crits, they could probably even reduce the CD on Gore to 9 seconds so as to better line up with Force Scream and DB and even Masterstrike. Though this does create a situation where in a sustained environment with little to no CC being thrown at the Carnage Mara, they could get up to 66% uptime with Gore, though half of that Gore time would be for Gore + FS -> auto-Ataru proc -> DB.

 

The idea probably needs number work to smooth out, and there could be mechanical problems I haven't realized yet, but I thought it could be an interesting alternative to the auto-crits, which when combined with 100% armor pen, really does turn Carnage into a burst spec.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

The Fury/Centering mechanic is the main thing that differentiates Marauders/Sents from Juggs/Guardians (other than 2 sabers). Let's not remove that, please.

 

Why not? It's a rather stupid and partially subject to RNG mechanic that is pretty close to holding the class back... and in some cases, it reduces the DPS of the class (the same can be said about Supercharge also, because Celerity doesnt also give a Supercharge boost like I think it should and same for Bloodthirst, give a Berserk as to not lose out on the DPS without wasting Frenzy) and it's slightly archaic compared to say, Supercharge. If it were changed to be like Supercharge, then I could see it being better, but remove Predation from it and give it a 45s CD.

[K_osss]

I like the Fury/Centering mechanic and would prefer transcendence/zen to be improved rather than taking transcendence off fury/centering. I like the choice. But it needs to be a good choice not a no-brainer.

[waterboytkd]

I like the Fury/Centering mechanic and would prefer transcendence/zen to be improved rather than taking transcendence off fury/centering. I like the choice. But it needs to be a good choice not a no-brainer.

 

The problem is the Fury spec. Fury's rotation is pretty much lobotomized if it doesn't use Berserk. And Annihilation loses most of its self-heals for using Transcendence.

 

Being unique is cool, but the issue with Transcendence/Predation being on the Fury/Centering Mechanic is that it's unique in that it's the only buff with a drawback. GbtF/UR has the same issue: unique DCD in that it's the only with with a drawback. Being unique because you have drawbacks isn't good.

 

Drawbacks as a design tend to not work out because either A) the drawback matters, and thus the ability isn't worth using/not worth the cost or B) you mitigate the drawback/make it not matter, and then the ability seems OP. You see this all the time in other games, like Magic: the Gathering.

 

WHAT IF: rather than being on a timer, or consuming stacks of Centering/Fury, when you build 30 stacks of Centering/Fury, it triggered a proc that allowed you to use Transcendence/Predation sometime in the next 10 seconds? That might be OP, as it allows Predation with every Berserk, but this way, Sents/Maras aren't taking a DPS hit for using their mobility ability.

 

What's the math on that? It takes 8 rage-costing attacks to build back to 30 Fury (less if you have Defensive forms and are getting hit). That's only 12 seconds. But, those attacks need rage to be built. Figure at least one Zealous Strike/Battering Assault, there. Probably a Strike/Assault, too. So 15 seconds. BUT, you can't start building Centering/Fury until you finish your Zen/Berserk, so, that's some amount of time (can vary significantly by spec and by actions). It's probably virtually the same as a 30 second or more cooldown.

 

The one thing I would say: with a mechanic like this, you probably couldn't allow Predation to make you immune to Movement-Impairment through Unbound, which a lot of people have asked for. Movement-impairment purge? Probably fine, especially if it stays a Heroic utility. But definitely not immunity on Predation.

 

With the above mechanic, I think Unbound would/should revert to its pre-3.0 mechanics: +30% speed boost to Predation (no purge), AND Force Camo purges movement-impairment. THOUGH, with the current meta of roots everywhere (especially since Shadows/Sins got a root on overload in the Skillful tier), I do think it would be fair to buff the above Unbound, making Force Camo purge movement-impairment AND make the Marauder immune to movement impairment for Force Camo's duration. Again, that's if it stays Heroic. If it doesn't gain the immunity and stays as the pre-3.0 version, it could drop tiers (Masterful for sure, maybe even Skillful--again, pointing out the root on Overload in the Skillful tier).

[cjwestlake]

I am doing amazingly well with fury transcendence. Insane damage with crazy speed. I wrote a guide and my guildmates are also having great success with this build. So for most of you I would say its a l2p issue. Its easy to hit trans all the time try to develop a good rotation, pick the best utilities, use the speed to increase your tot. You can build centering while trans is running so you should be able to cast it every 10 to 15 seconds. I know all of you believe this build won't work it losses to much damage. Hey, I can do it, my guildmates have learned to do it. Its on you!! A year or two ago more people were playing this game that could give insight into unique builds and play styles. Not anymore! If they give transcendence a CD over 20 seconds it will kill the best build we have. Fortunately, I believe they won't!! I played combat in 2.10 and it was great but this build is better in mobility and damage potential. This is my experience!!

[waterboytkd]

I am doing amazingly well with fury transcendence. Insane damage with crazy speed. I wrote a guide and my guildmates are also having great success with this build. So for most of you I would say its a l2p issue. Its easy to hit trans all the time try to develop a good rotation, pick the best utilities, use the speed to increase your tot. You can build centering while trans is running so you should be able to cast it every 10 to 15 seconds. I know all of you believe this build won't work it losses to much damage. Hey, I can do it, my guildmates have learned to do it. Its on you!! A year or two ago more people were playing this game that could give insight into unique builds and play styles. Not anymore! If they give transcendence a CD over 20 seconds it will kill the best build we have. Fortunately, I believe they won't!! I played combat in 2.10 and it was great but this build is better in mobility and damage potential. This is my experience!!

 

How do you sustain any damage with that? I could see the cold opener of Leap -> Force Crush -> Battering Assault -> Raging Burst -> Furious Strike, which leaves you with 1 Rage left, and still 13.5 seconds before you have Destruction stacks again. Granted, you don't NEED destruction stacks, but your auto-crit Raging Burst is going to cost you 5 rage (Obliterate + Raging Burst). You're gonna be spamming Assault a lot. You must spend a lot of your utilities on rage generation (Cloak of Rage, Unyielding, probably Cloak of Carnage to keep it up longer?). Without that, there's no way you keep auto-crit Raging Burst and Furious Strike on cooldown.

[DarkNecroCrusher]

waterboytkd :

 

[...]

 

WHAT IF: rather than being on a timer, or consuming stacks of Centering/Fury, when you build 30 stacks of Centering/Fury, it triggered a proc that allowed you to use Transcendence/Predation sometime in the next 10 seconds?

 

What about a passive ability making Transcendance useable only when you have Zen/Berserk stacks up ? Like you said, it gives you more than 10 seconds to use it like every 30 seconds or so.

 

That might be OP, as it allows Predation with every Berserk, but this way, Sents/Maras aren't taking a DPS hit for using their mobility ability.

 

Don't find it OP, it's like having Transcendance on a 30 seconds CD, like you said. PT/Vanguards have a movement-impairment cleanse + immunity for 6 seconds every 30 seconds (or for 10 seconds every 25 seconds if specced properly). Transcendance would be only a movement-impairment cleanse. Sounds fair to me.

 

[...]

 

The one thing I would say: with a mechanic like this, you probably couldn't allow Predation to make you immune to Movement-Impairment through Unbound, which a lot of people have asked for. Movement-impairment purge? Probably fine, especially if it stays a Heroic utility. But definitely not immunity on Predation.

 

100% Agreed, would be OP.

 

With the above mechanic, I think Unbound would/should revert to its pre-3.0 mechanics: +30% speed boost to Predation (no purge), AND Force Camo purges movement-impairment.

 

IMO, the movement-impairment cleanse should be baseline on Transcendance. In addition to the 30% speed bonus, maybe make Unbound/Fleetfooted extend the effect to group members OR give it back the unroot/slow on Force Camouflage.

 

THOUGH, with the current meta of roots everywhere (especially since Shadows/Sins got a root on overload in the Skillful tier), I do think it would be fair to buff the above Unbound, making Force Camo purge movement-impairment AND make the Marauder immune to movement impairment for Force Camo's duration. Again, that's if it stays Heroic. If it doesn't gain the immunity and stays as the pre-3.0 version, it could drop tiers (Masterful for sure, maybe even Skillful--again, pointing out the root on Overload in the Skillful tier).

 

I think Expunging Camouflage should have a thing like this. PURGE instead of cleanse + all CC immunity for the duration of Force Camouflage (with the changes on Transcendance above).

Edited January 16, 2015 by DarkNecroCrusher

[Ashbar]

Hi I'm a Mara called Huracan from T3M4,

I tell you my ideas to change the mara.

1. Make force camouflage a purge (tier3)

2. Undying cost no health and makes you stun immune (not root) only useable under 50% life

3. Make cloak of pain to root immunity ( not stun) (tier2)

4. Make obfuscate works against force and tech

[Emperor-Norton]

WHAT IF: rather than being on a timer, or consuming stacks of Centering/Fury, when you build 30 stacks of Centering/Fury, it triggered a proc that allowed you to use Transcendence/Predation sometime in the next 10 seconds?

 

What about a passive ability making Transcendance useable only when you have Zen/Berserk stacks up ? Like you said, it gives you more than 10 seconds to use it like every 30 seconds or so.

Someone explain to me why people have such a fascination with having to connect Transcendence to having 30 Centering stacks? It is such an annoying limiting mechanic that gets away from actually allowing you to use a utility ability when it is actually useful to use, not when your rotation allows it to be used.

 

There is no skill in it, it just limits the player.

The one thing I would say: with a mechanic like this, you probably couldn't allow Predation to make you immune to Movement-Impairment through Unbound, which a lot of people have asked for. Movement-impairment purge? Probably fine, especially if it stays a Heroic utility. But definitely not immunity on Predation.

 

100% Agreed, would be OP.

I don't think Trans should really be available so often for Sentinels. After all it would be there mostly to augment existing Sentinel leaps, or allow them to chase someone effectively. Personally in PvP I think a 45 second CD is the right balance of giving you that time where you can do what you need to do, while not having you basically never be able to be snared. It is already pretty ridiculous how often PTs have Hydraulics up. I do suppose that if people want it up more often you could decrease the duration to 6-8 seconds (I lean closer to 8). I do kind of like the idea since I usually don't need the full 10 seconds on the ability.

With the above mechanic, I think Unbound would/should revert to its pre-3.0 mechanics: +30% speed boost to Predation (no purge), AND Force Camo purges movement-impairment.

 

IMO, the movement-impairment cleanse should be baseline on Transcendance. In addition to the 30% speed bonus, maybe make Unbound/Fleetfooted extend the effect to group members OR give it back the unroot/slow on Force Camouflage.

I really like the idea of making a Utility makes the movement speed on Trans apply to the group. It matches very well with the ones that Juggs get. +1

 

THOUGH, with the current meta of roots everywhere (especially since Shadows/Sins got a root on overload in the Skillful tier), I do think it would be fair to buff the above Unbound, making Force Camo purge movement-impairment AND make the Marauder immune to movement impairment for Force Camo's duration. Again, that's if it stays Heroic. If it doesn't gain the immunity and stays as the pre-3.0 version, it could drop tiers (Masterful for sure, maybe even Skillful--again, pointing out the root on Overload in the Skillful tier).

 

I think Expunging Camoufvlage should have a thing like this. PURGE instead of cleanse + all CC immunity for the duration of Force Camouflage (with the changes on Transcendance above).

The Devs have said that the only classes that will get Purges are Operatives and Sins, and it is to allow them to Combat Stealth and not have Dots bring them out of Stealth. So no, you will not get a purge on Camo nor is it needed.

 

Also, with the way snares are setup in this game a root break really isn't as strong as you think it is. It is very easy to just reapply a Snare and you are back to square one and it makes countering a Mara very predictable. Especially when you realize that just about everything a DPS Sorc does come with some sort of snare. PTs have a Skillful utility that puts a 50% 6 second movement speed decrease to anyone attacked by its spam abilities (Marauders get that on abilties with used every 12-18 seconds and it is Masterful). Snipers, Merc etc also have an abundant amount of ways to control someone. There is kind of reason that Juggs have movement impairment immunity on Endure Pain, because it is vastly better than a root break. And in general everyone has a new way of Movement Impairment except Operatives and Marauders, who are the most **** on classes of 3.0. Like Sins, Juggs, PTs, Mercs, Sorcs, etc. Marauders need an ability they can pop to escape the sheer amount of control the game now has for a bit.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[TACeMossie]

On transcendence:

 

I've been thinking about this recently, but what if we changed it from Centering/Fury to Focus/Rage and gave it a 15 second cooldown. Yes it is off the GCD and is a defensive cooldown, but an important thing to not is it is a raid wide defensive cooldown that boosts [/i]everyone's[/i] speed and defense when used.

 

I'm thinking something like 4 focus to use, which is reduced by 1 when used under Berserk in Combat/Carnage when you get the Efficient Strikes passive.

 

Why so much focus/rage? Because it means that its the equivalent of using Slash/Vicious Slash, Blade Rush/Massacre or Dispatch/Vicious Throw when you combo Transcendence/Predation with Saber Strike/Assault.

 

In terms of replacing the Crippling Throw/Deadly Throw root, its as simple as increasing the slow on Incisor/Interceptor from 50% slow to a complete root in exchange for its duration reduced from 6 seconds to 3.

 

Finally, Alter Just Pursuit/Inescapable because that talent sucks. Something like:

 

"Reduces the Focus/Rage cost of Transcendence/Predation and Leg Slash/Crippling Slash by 2. In addition, Leg Slash/Crippling Slash now roots the target for 3 seconds before applying its slow."

[DarkNecroCrusher]

Someone explain to me why people have such a fascination with having to connect Transcendence to having 30 Centering stacks? It is such an annoying limiting mechanic that gets away from actually allowing you to use a utility ability when it is actually useful to use, not when your rotation allows it to be used.

 

There is no skill in it, it just limits the player.

 

I don't think Trans should really be available so often for Sentinels. After all it would be there mostly to augment existing Sentinel leaps, or allow them to chase someone effectively. Personally in PvP I think a 45 second CD is the right balance of giving you that time where you can do what you need to do, while not having you basically never be able to be snared. It is already pretty ridiculous how often PTs have Hydraulics up. I do suppose that if people want it up more often you could decrease the duration to 6-8 seconds (I lean closer to 8). I do kind of like the idea since I usually don't need the full 10 seconds on the ability.

I really like the idea of making a Utility makes the movement speed on Trans apply to the group. It matches very well with the ones that Juggs get. +1

 

 

The Devs have said that the only classes that will get Purges are Operatives and Sins, and it is to allow them to Combat Stealth and not have Dots bring them out of Stealth. So no, you will not get a purge on Camo nor is it needed.

 

Also, with the way snares are setup in this game a root break really isn't as strong as you think it is. It is very easy to just reapply a Snare and you are back to square one and it makes countering a Mara very predictable. Especially when you realize that just about everything a DPS Sorc does come with some sort of snare. PTs have a Skillful utility that puts a 50% 6 second movement speed decrease to anyone attacked by its spam abilities (Marauders get that on abilties with used every 12-18 seconds and it is Masterful). Snipers, Merc etc also have an abundant amount of ways to control someone. There is kind of reason that Juggs have movement impairment immunity on Endure Pain, because it is vastly better than a root break. And in general everyone has a new way of Movement Impairment except Operatives and Marauders, who are the most **** on classes of 3.0. Like Sins, Juggs, PTs, Mercs, Sorcs, etc. Marauders need an ability they can pop to escape the sheer amount of control the game now has for a bit.

 

I find that managing the use of Zen or Transcendance over the other is rather a proof of skill, and even more when popping Valorous Call.

 

About your concern, I don't have a problem about Transcendance out of the centering/fury system. My problem is that you can't pop it before/after a Zen or just after the end of the first one by using Valorous Call.

It's ok for me to have it on a CD as long as you can decide to burn a Transcendance to help your team or make a quick switch to defend a point in a WZ.

I mostly build centering out of combat to have a Transcendance up for my team in a WZ for a quick node switch, putting it under a CD without any other change will prevent me to do this and it's a huge strategy nerf for me and my team.

 

What about a 45 seconds CD and a self only root/slow breaker baseline ? Plus a new utility refreshing its CD when using Valorous Call ?

 

Now about the fact that it's easy to shut Sent/Mara down, my biggest concern is Master Strike/Ravage and Precision.

MS/Ravage could be a channeled ability we can use while moving. We are always bumped, stunned or kited when we want to use it that we have to use it on a stunned target or when we are white barred. No other class has that kind of boring issue.

It would allow us to use it while dancing around the target.

Another idea would be to create a new utility for it to be possible without making it baseline.

 

Or add this in the Combat/Carnage spec. Not as good as CC immune after a jump, but useful enough to be considered. Also it's the spec that needs the most ToT right now IMO.

 

About Precision, it's the same damn thing. Too easy to shut down.

 

What about changing it so it builds 3 stacks when activated (6 seconds buff duration ?), and one use of a damaging skill makes you lose one stack (MS/Ravage counting for 2) ? It could still be countered or shut down, but not as easily as right now.

 

About root/slow immunity, I agree with you, but I really don't have any solid idea right now on which skill it could be tied to.

Add this to the Saber Ward utility ? OP

Give Sent/Mara a baseline skill with this effect ? OP

Add this to Transcendance with a utility but reduce the duration of the skill ? Maybe. With the changes we are discussing about.

OR New utility ? When popping Valorous Call, you are immune to movement-impairing effects for X seconds (in the same utility refreshing Transcendance suggested above) ? Maybe a fun thing.

 

There are a lot of good things that could be easily done to improve this class without making it OP, we really have to keep on discussing without fighting each other (Atlanis included, even if he is more in a negative point of view and agressive behavior).

 

And everybody here have at least one great idea anybody else could have think about.

 

Then we could make a clear post with the major things we are all agreeing with.

 

Glad to debate around our beloved class with you guys =)

Edited January 16, 2015 by DarkNecroCrusher