Emperor-Norton's everything wrong with Sent/Mara thread

[QuiveringPotato]

its not the problems with your idea, its just common sense,i understand you are expressing your ideas, ok, but some things shouldn't be changed, transcendence as it is atm is one of the very few things making sentinel minimally with group utility, remember combat before 3.0? The utility in team? so dfor sure no, transcendence cant be putted on cd, like i said there is other ways to improve and yes people should give ideas but not think before even post it. I think is 100% certain everyone agree in one thing, give back crippling trow on leg slash place, with both effects on same skill, and the root effect well or its on utility or exclusively on combat discipline, just add it to one existent one

 

If they made Frenzy reset the CD of predation (if they gave it a CD and untied it from the fury mechanic), there would be no problem. You could still do a double pred like normal.

[calamatiesend]

If they made Frenzy reset the CD of predation (if they gave it a CD and untied it from the fury mechanic), there would be no problem. You could still do a double pred like normal.

 

I agree, and have the CD affected by alacrity. So for carnage popping Berserk would allow for a much shorter CD on pred if you were smart about how you used it. This would allow carnage to keep a relatively high uptime on pred like it used it.

[Sappharan]

I would be willing to bet I know a lot more than you do about how the Devs do balancing wrt player feedback.

 

Perhaps I am being petulant, but I'd like to know what qualifies you over anyone in this vaunted knowledge. Are you a developer, do you know one or are you merely rebuking me?

 

I also would be willing to bet they would definitely be willing to listen to the right voices with the right suggestions. Especially if these voices weren't about making a wish list of every OP change they would ever want, they tend to ignore those people. If these voices were reasonable and included the problems along with in what way a class needed changes, instead of "gib buffs nao". Also, this thread is made up of, you know, suggestions.

 

You're bargaining for nerfs to abilities that should not be nerfed to undo nerfs that should never have been introduced. I don't see how that's reasonable.

 

The class was fine as it was (though I will always disagree with gbtf nerf) and I would have been happy if they changed nothing. We lost CT, we lost the damage on PS, we lost 1.5s on availability and its proc and we received precious few new goodies. Oh, I do like that Stasis is now a hard stun, but that does not make up for what was lost.

 

-Revert gbtf to original inception

-Revert the CT nerf/removal

-Revert PS its form and procs before Revan expansion

 

...and we're fine.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sappharan

[aq_swagga]

I was discussing with a guildie about some potential changes we thought would bring Sents/Maras up to par with the other classes and here's what we came up with:

 

-Bring back crippling throw/deadly throw and replace the leg slash root utility with crippling throw root (carnage talent pre 3.0)

-Add to blood ward/zealous ward utility to make it reduce the CD of saber ward by 3 secs every time you're attacked, which can't occur more than one every 1.5 secs

-Add a utility that gives root immunity for the duration of rebuke/cloak of pain, add this to the utility that lets you use rebuke while stunned

-give 30% DR while stunned, add this to the utility that builds rage every time you're stunned.

-Increase gore's duration back up to 4.5 seconds (this one is just because i love carnage and I'm totally biased towards it lol)

-Take away the damage done by rebuke, and replace it with self heals.

-Make 15% speed boost a passive for the AC, and make the defensive forms utility passive.

-Add a new utility that gives either a 15 or 30% DR against dots

[Ravrohan]

If every other class has self heals as apart of their defense cd's if what I've read on these boards is true. Why should rebuke loose the damage portion? Lets have a utility that adds some small bit of self healing to it. Edited January 13, 2015 by Ravrohan

[Atlanis]

I would be willing to bet I know a lot more than you do about how the Devs do balancing wrt player feedback. I also would be willing to bet they would definitely be willing to listen to the right voices with the right suggestions. Especially if these voices weren't about making a wish list of every OP change they would ever want, they tend to ignore those people. If these voices were reasonable and included the problems along with in what way a class needed changes, instead of "gib buffs nao". Also, this thread is made up of, you know, suggestions.

 

And for everyone who has problems with my ideas, I would love to see your posts about suggestions on how to change the class for the better.

 

Ahem, no you are no god and you are not qualified to represent all Sentinels/Maras out there. I personally will not bargain for buffs by taking nerfs or giving the Devs idea of what should be nerfed. For example I am happy non-Sentplayers tend to be stupid and pull nice white dmg when they eat pacify and instead of complaining about pacify they complain why their skill is bugged and call cheater hacker whatsoever.

 

I was one of the people who called for Dotsmashnerf, but I will always disagree with the nerfs we took because people were to stupid to play their class.

 

Watchmanselfheal got nerfed because nobody tended to despell back then. I even told the people: "Hey if you got 3 stacks pull your despell". Melees countered that by either comming from stealth or already back then having superior Def CDs to my watchman Sent. Yes you could win 2 v 1 Situations with a Watchman but that required a lot of luck and the stars had to be aligned. Yes a Ranged would be nuked by a Sentinel if he let them in range, but what is wrong with that?

 

Nowadays they got a ******** of CC and Escape Stuff and still I see no *********** gunslinger who would pull roll or sees it as the DC it is. Oh and yeah Smash did heavy damage before the "Srry guys people have no movementskill"nerf but only once every 20s or so it hurt but it wouldn´t kill you 2 coordinateted smashers would if you were so stupid to huddle together in a Ranged/Healer Camp.

 

Def CDs were nerfed to a point were they just give you a nice glow and you die just as fast without them, since people complained about loosing against a Sent in a Melee fight as a Ranged. Yeah I mean those ****** Gunslingers(I could say random rDPS or Healer but I dislike Gunslingers the most they are at the point were they cannot loose to a Melee and still complain) again who didn´t know how to kite you. Root or Stun get out of cover run a piece be in cover when root or stun is gone ---> slow that Sent profit. Should he get to close again AoE Kick or close combat cc and run again. Still works nowadays against all melees. I have a Sniper on Max Level so I should know:D Gunslingers are fine just check if you got all your skills in your hotbar and read them before joining the next match guys^^

 

No I will not accept anymore Nerfs, no acceptable significant buffs and I will never touch my Sentinel again. My Guardian DPS will be hopefully on level 60 when 3.1. hits, if not I will either switch to my vanguard or Sage. I am feed up with the Devs ridiculing us and people who may have a long e pen because of some nightmare clears and stuff like that telling that we shouldn´t ask for too much. Well easy to say if you can easily switch between 4-5 full geared alts and have no love for your AC. I play the Sent because I loved the style until Watchman got culled in PvP due to community demands, I am done with beeing reasonable and enduring stuff.

 

We are a DPS only and have no option to temporarly switch to heal (hello scoundrel dps btw.) or to tank (hello guardian dps pre 3.0.), they need to fix the AC ASAP. A DPS that can´t DPS on a competitive level with other classes without having to do much much more in a fight will not be played very long. Plus all the talk about beeing dependent on the Team in PvP, everyone depends on it. Sentinel feels like the blind deaf whelchair child who wants to play soccer with the rest of the gang. So I will disagree with you oh mighty gods of the Sent spec who shall not be questioned. I already tended to disagree with your Watchmanguide, but well like Widukind I shall not bow my head unless someone puts a Sword at my neck

 

Adressing minor Tank Guardian Spec issues first shows what the Devs think of the Sent:

 

We shouldn´t exist, but they needed a 2nd AC for Jedi Knight.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Atlanis

[Emperor-Norton]

Putting transcendence/Predation on cd is bad idea, by default its a great team utility and was wath devs intended by default.

This. ^

 

Putting a cd on Predation would piss me off far more then any of the recent changes have.

Any specific reason why you think so? Generally I would also like it to stay a group buff, even if it means a cooldown well over a minute. The problem with Transcendence will always be that it is tied to Centering, which means the ability doesn't need a cooldown. However it forces the player between the ability to attack the target, or the ability to do good damage. No other class has that trade off for mobility, and for Sents the trees that rely on Berserk (Fury and Annihilation) are just absolutely not viable as Pred spammers. I can see no good argument to make Transcendence work as a truly useful ability that is used often other than what I said in my post. For people that want it in it's current state, yeah spamming it for ball carrying in Huttball is silly since it is already too good for that, and the ability to do that is not worth the fact that Sents are a joke in PvP because of how easy they are to control and shut down. It also doesn't help the fact that Sents have de facto no utility in PvE besides pressing Inspiration, which many classes now have their own versions of.

 

What the Devs intended I feel is a bad argument. They intended for Concealment to global people, they intended full Pre-Nerf Smash to be a thing. And they decided to not keep those in place.

People may not notice but scream animation is faster than blade storm, so hist first, and the new ability on bot classes have same animation speed so that is an issue fixed.

And the reason hand of justice now proc on first ataru is easy, to make use of the set effect, its kinda a controlled burst this way

The damage you see on your screen is cosmetic. Behind the screen the damage is calculated and applied at the same with both Force Scream and Blade Storm.

If every other class has self heals as apart of their defense cd's if what I've read on these boards is true. Why should rebuke loose the damage portion? Lets have a utility that adds some small bit of self healing to it.

I always liked that Rebuke did a bit of damage. It was a cool thing to take advantage of in PvP and PvE. There is also this story: I was doing a game of Solo Ranked on my Smash Mara, my team somehow manages to all die, leaving me to do a 1v3 against a Healer at 3% and 2 other Maras. I manage to kill the Healer and the other DPS, and it is me vs the other Mara with both of us nearly dead. He puts Force Crush on me then Camos. I have nothing to use at this point, and I assume he will come out of Camo and Smash me, winning the game for his team. Until he dies, in Camo, from the damage reflect on Cloak of Pain.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[anwg]

I say change predation to cost 15 fury.

[Ardarell_Solo]

I say change predation to cost 15 fury.

 

I like that idea.

[waterboytkd]

If they made Frenzy reset the CD of predation (if they gave it a CD and untied it from the fury mechanic), there would be no problem. You could still do a double pred like normal.

 

I like this idea. Especially in conjunction with this:

 

I agree, and have the CD affected by alacrity. So for carnage popping Berserk would allow for a much shorter CD on pred if you were smart about how you used it. This would allow carnage to keep a relatively high uptime on pred like it used it.

[Emperor-Norton]

I say change predation to cost 15 fury.

The problem with making it cost any Fury is it always costs potential damage, and it requires you to happen to have Centering whenever you may need to use it.

 

Attaching Alacrity to Transcendence is a stupid idea. No utility should be affected by Alacrity since it is a stat entirely meant to augment Damage or Healing, not help you run faster (and it shouldn't help Adrenals or Bloodthirsts, since it then requires you to use them with Alacrity bossts up). What you are suggesting is like having Surge increase the speed bonus. And to

.

[heizluefta]

Why not do everything like in 2.10 again and just adjust the penetration and the pvp related root/immunity ?

All was fine until 3.0.

What i also dont understand is bringing Force-Scream 2.0 with DevBlast and having an unused skill now that previously did the same, but less !

Thats really poor design ! Just a placeholder now and an indication (i think) for the fact that they didnt know how to balance all and just made a new skill that isnt really a new one. Thinking that would be balancing all is...no words!

Edited January 14, 2015 by heizluefta

[mcpark]

This class has been played with to many times to keep as a main. Over and over again its trashed and rebuilt. Yeah its an mmo and thats life, but even if they make it work i wouldnt spend much time on it because if anyone has played mar/sent over the last 3 yrs you know its been screwed over time and time again, let it die move on. Edited January 14, 2015 by mcpark

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

To the op: sent/mara always had this problem against rots, slow, and saying they want is spam predation over all huttball its no true even taking some time the stacks building are not that fast, if you want call spam speed buff then you should call to the pt hydraulic override, technically is 15 secs cs, and if he is a tank is a joke once they jump they have even more speed is pretty much impossible to stop them.

I already stated before just cause others classes have speed buff on cd dont have to be same with sentinel. There is other was to fix this like others already suggested, like first 5 secs rebuke working like guardian unremitting.

Its not nerfing yes cause its basically what would be putting predation would mean.

It was 3.0 buffs on most of the classes that putted sentinel in this situation, like aluvian so strong argument ed one of buffs should be giving back cripling trow back in place leg slash, crip trow should maybe no have cd but root effect would happen every specific sec, givve massacre/blade rush a slow, this would give class control but mobility against himself still an issue,and there need be adressed.

Oh and please you said class is almost no use on pve?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Zez-Kai-Ell

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

Why not do everything like in 2.10 again and just adjust the penetration and the pvp related root/immunity ?

All was fine until 3.0.

What i also dont understand is bringing Force-Scream 2.0 with DevBlast and having an unused skill now that previously did the same, but less !

Thats really poor design ! Just a placeholder now and an indication (i think) for the fact that they didnt know how to balance all and just made a new skill that isnt really a new one. Thinking that would be balancing all is...no words!

devastating blast is only for carnage while playing fury you can use only force scream

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

I like this idea. Especially in conjunction with this:

well its debatable but that would make maybe, maybe an improvement for class but i highly doubt they will ever do that, just cause you recall when a suggestion not sure by who was: if precision is on cd ataru don't reset if its on cd then ataru reset, very similiar like those 2 suggestions but too much hard apparently for devs do that

Maybe make sent immune to slow, root knock back during transcendence duration but only to himself.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Zez-Kai-Ell

[cs_zoltan]

To the op: sent/mara always had this problem against rots, slow, and saying they want is spam predation over all huttball its no true even taking some time the stacks building are not that fast, if you want call spam speed buff then you should call to the pt hydraulic override, technically is 15 secs cs, and if he is a tank is a joke once they jump they have even more speed is pretty much impossible to stop them.

I already stated before just cause others classes have speed buff on cd dont have to be same with sentinel. There is other was to fix this like others already suggested, like first 5 secs rebuke working like guardian unremitting.

Its not nerfing yes cause its basically what would be putting predation would mean.

It was 3.0 buffs on most of the classes that putted sentinel in this situation, like aluvian so strong argument ed one of buffs should be giving back cripling trow back in place leg slash, crip trow should maybe no have cd but root effect would happen every specific sec, givve massacre/blade rush a slow, this would give class control but mobility against himself still an issue,and there need be adressed.

Oh and please you said class is almost no use on pve?

 

Sigh...But Predation already HAS an effective cd of how fast you generate Fury, but using it gimps your damage. Detaching it from Fury and giving it a real cd wouldn't change much of it's usability (unless you have Brooding it's actually a buff in PVP with the frequent downtime), and wouldn't nerf your damage either...

[DarkNecroCrusher]

Problem with Transcendance out of the centering/fury system is that you can't pop Valorous Call to have an emergency speed boost (and antiroot with Fleetfooted utility) when needed after a Zen/Berserk.

 

If you put Transcendance on CD out of the current system, you have to give sent/mara a new heroic utility refreshing Transcendance CD when popping Valorous Call at least, or make it baseline.

Edited January 14, 2015 by DarkNecroCrusher

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

Sigh...But Predation already HAS an effective cd of how fast you generate Fury, but using it gimps your damage. Detaching it from Fury and giving it a real cd wouldn't change much of it's usability (unless you have Brooding it's actually a buff in PVP with the frequent downtime), and wouldn't nerf your damage either...

 

Then why the hell are some asking to put predation on cd?the current way its fine........

The truth is many of the dumb suggestion made are from players who have no idea what are they saying and seems also by other class players who simply dont want sentinel fixed.

Again this stubborn people need understand , predation on cd is a horrible idea.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Zez-Kai-Ell

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

Problem with Transcendance out of the centering/fury system is that you can't pop Valorous Call to have an emergency speed boost (and antiroot with Fleetfooted utility) when needed after a Zen/Berserk.

 

If you put Transcendance on CD out of the current system, you have to give sent/mara a new heroic utility refreshing Transcendance CD when popping Valorous Call at least, or make it baseline.

Some people dont even think before talking is more like oh wait this could be a fix, when it would not be and it will only make the class worse that it is already.

[cs_zoltan]

Then why the hell are some asking to put predation on cd?the current way its fine........

The truth is many of the dumb suggestion made are from players who have no idea what are they saying and seems also by other class players who simply dont want sentinel fixed.

Again this stubborn people need understand , predation on cd is a horrible idea.

 

1. It's not fine.
   
2. I rather listen to Norton who contributed a lot to the Marauder community than you.
   
3. No, having a cd is a great idea.
   

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

1. It's not fine.
   
2. I rather listen to Norton who contributed a lot to the Marauder community than you.
   
3. No, having a cd is a great idea.
   

you can listen whoever you want, despite whatever he ever contributed to community that don't make him flawless and knowing everything, and no one was elected anyone to be the class speaker, only hope is bw realize what need to be done instead listening dumb suggestions like that.

And you clearly have no clue what are saying showing you don't even know the class problems, you only listen who have ideas like you.

And your 2 answer was just stupid and brainless from your part, like if you have a personal issue with me which i dont give a flying duck. but by all mean you can keep amusing me with your answers.

[cs_zoltan]

you can listen whoever you want, despite whatever he ever contributed to community that don't make him flawless and knowing everything, and no one was elected anyone to be the class speaker, only hope is bw realize what need to be done instead listening dumb suggestions like that.

And you clearly have no clue what are saying showing you don't even know the class problems, you only listen who have ideas like you.

And your 2 answer was just stupid and brainless from your part, like if you have a personal issue with me which i dont give a flying duck. but by all mean you can keep amusing me with your answers.

 

You are a very emotional child....

Your whole argument is like "you are wrong for no specific reasons and I'm right so you are stupid. If you don't agree with me then hurr durr boo hoo"

Edited January 14, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Emperor-Norton]

To the op: sent/mara always had this problem against rots, slow, and saying they want is spam predation over all huttball its no true even taking some time the stacks building are not that fast, if you want call spam speed buff then you should call to the pt hydraulic override, technically is 15 secs cs, and if he is a tank is a joke once they jump they have even more speed is pretty much impossible to stop them.

I already stated before just cause others classes have speed buff on cd dont have to be same with sentinel. There is other was to fix this like others already suggested, like first 5 secs rebuke working like guardian unremitting.

Its not nerfing yes cause its basically what would be putting predation would mean.

It was 3.0 buffs on most of the classes that putted sentinel in this situation, like aluvian so strong argument ed one of buffs should be giving back cripling trow back in place leg slash, crip trow should maybe no have cd but root effect would happen every specific sec, givve massacre/blade rush a slow, this would give class control but mobility against himself still an issue,and there need be adressed.

Oh and please you said class is almost no use on pve?

You can't buff Transcendence to make it be better at combating snares so long as it is so spammable. You can use it back to back for 20 seconds of uptime and have it up every 10-15 seconds if you are being attacked with Defensive Forms (0-5 seconds cd going by your logic). Now that I think about it, giving Marauders in general a 10 meter slow and root and healing debuff is rather silly. Carnage only really needs some form of Ranged Root (ala Crippling Throw), Watchman needs some kind of root ignore on Leap + a root with Force Melt, while Fury is generally fine as is for controlling an opponent. What Maras need is a way to counter the ability for a PT to use Hydraulics to keep you at 8 meter range, or a Sorc to Force Speed away, knockback root you, and cast while doing it. All classes got a mobility buff of some kind in 3.0, Maras didn't. Juggs got movement speed and snare immunity on Endure Pain. PTs got improved movement speed on HtL. Sorcs and Mercs got casting on the move. Maras have a natural ability to fill that mobility void in Predation, but it is locked up by being attached to Centering. If you were immune to snares while PRed is active it would go a huge way to fixing the problem Maras have in PvP: They are easy as pie to control and have no counter to snares besides Force Camo which is also used for 15 different things. Anyone who doesn't see this is just blind. And attaching a movement bonus to anything other than a movement ability is idiotic. I pop Rebuke to lessen damage, not because I want to avoid CC.

 

Also, next time instead of just saying "I don't like this", actually give a decent reason with some thought behind it. Instead of saying you don't like it and therefore your word is better than people that are far more accomplished and respected than you.

 

Oh and please you said class is almost no use on pve?

If you read me correctly, no one in any high quality raiding guild outside of a very few diehards plays it anymore. For the simple fact that they destroyed the Annihilation rotation that made just about everyone abandon the AC, and with the current content the spec is terrible at staying on a boss. And the one special thing it did besides Trans, other classes can do. Edited January 14, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[Zez-Kai-Ell]

You are a very emotional child....

Your whole argument is like "you are wrong for no specific reasons and I'm right so you are stupid. If you don't agree with me then hurr durr boo hoo"

oh did i hit your ego

your answer calling me a child who are always right and others are wrong is exactly wath you are doing or you don't even read your own?

anyways there is no point on argue with people like you, koodles for you, or lets elect you for speaking on class behalf maybe it will be fix finally...............

And just for your info i not only listen norton but as while others who know what hare saying. i will not waste more time talking to you your answers show your knowledge of the class. have a good day.