Emperor-Norton's everything wrong with Sent/Mara thread

[Emperor-Norton]

Put simply, Sentinel/Marauder is in a bad place. In PvE a huge amount of Raiders retired their Marauders since it inherently isn't a fun class to play anymore and current content makes using them really clunky when you can just take a Ranged DPS or PT instead. All of whom will do the job better and with much less effort. While damage output if a Sentinel is able to continuously DPS is fine, in PvE and PvP the class suffers from the fact that it is unable to stick to a target due to the way mechanics are designed in PvE and in PvP the sheer amount of mobility and control other classes have now makes the class underpowered against an equal opponent and this issue only gets worse in organized group play.

 

The problems with Marauders (and Warriors in general) is they are extraordinarily dependent on being in 4 meters of someone to be able to do damage. That is an extremely small space to work with, so when any kind of mechanic shows up on the ground or someone pops an ability that ignores any slow or root you have, it is very easy for you to be forced out of Melee Range, where Marauders have a very small amount of tools to stay in Melee Range (Fury isn't as bad however). In contrast to Sentinels, Assassins and PTs have many more options that allow them to do damage to a boss from outside of Melee Range, and the traditional leap for a Sentinel isn't as useful with current content design, and the gap closers that other classes have now wouldn't make the ability to leap that drastic of an improvement.

 

Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage

 

This Defensive Cooldown needs to be buffed. The nerf in 2.5 to make it cost health at the end of it's protection was a fine change... in 2.5. Since then numerous classes got buffs to "second life" cooldowns that left Undying Rage an under performing Defensive in comparison. Enduring Bastion was added to Sorcs, which made Force Barrier far better as a Defensive Cooldown, as it gave the Sorc a true defensive cooldown after using Barrier. Sorcs then got a Corrupted Barrier, which makes it so Sorcs will get healed for most of their Health whenever they barrier. This is on top of the ability to use Resurgence and the other passive Healing they have available. Juggs got Enraged Defense buffed to the point where it actually heals the Juggernaut for most of his Health while he is getting attacked. Snipers got a proposed buff to Evasion that made them immune to all damage for a similar duration to UR, but got it changed to simply be a 75% damage reduction on Force/Tech Attacks and immunity to Melee/Ranged Attacks for no Health cost.

 

The subsequent changes to many other prolong your life cooldowns makes claims that Guarded was too good at keeping someone alive under pressure seem kinda silly. So I think that the change to how it consumed Health should be reverted to it's state from before 2.5, when it consumed Health on activation. This would make the ability not the only DPS cooldown that may or may not keep you alive. It would also allow you to get the full benefit of self-healing from Annihilation or a medpack while the cooldown is still active. This would go a long way to making Sentinels more survivable in PvP and not one of the best targets to focus despite being a Melee Brawler class.

 

While having the nerf to Undying's health consumption be reverted would be a nice change, it doesn't fix a problem that Sentinels have had for a really long time, namely it is incredibly easy to kill them with well placed hard stuns. Undying as it is now or as it was before 2.5 always had the problem that a hard stun and hard switch to a Marauder is an excellent way to bypass their cooldowns. This is different from many life saving cooldowns like Force Barrier, Kolto Overload (if talented) or Enraged Defense that either are able to be used while stunned, or purge stun effects. If Sentinels were given a Heroic Utility that allowed you to use UR while stunned or made it a stun break, that would also go a long way to fixing the issues Sentinels have survivability wise in PvP.

 

Transcendence/Predation

 

Transcendence has always been a very problematic ability despite being very useful in theory. Due to how Centering works, any use of Transcendence means a loss of a possible Zen or Inspiration. As a result, no one wants to ever use it (the user or the rest of the group), regardless of whether or not it would be useful in that situation, since it always has an opportunity cost. It results in a decent damage loss to the Sentinel if he is playing Combat, while Watchman loses a ton of damage and passive healing, while Concentration loses over 15 Focus from using Transcendence which to put it mildly, just butchers that disciplines rotation.

 

The issues with Transcendence are becoming more relevant now that ever due to the fact that Marauders have either been nerfed or left alone while other classes received buffs, and due to issues the class has with mobility. Unlike the 4 other Melee Advanced Classes, Marauders now have rather poor means of control and very poor means of staying on a target. They have nothing that lets them continue to do damage while contending with immobilizing effects or mechanics blocking access to a boss like PTs, no way of contending with Stuns like Sins, no ways of controlling opponents like Operatives (Server Tendon is what Leg Slash should be). So in an expansion where huge movement bonuses were given to classes across the board (Sorcs via Utilities were given the control of a heavily immobile class with Overload Root and Stun Bubble, then made very mobile. One of the main lot of the reason why they are OP), Marauders can't compete half due to problems in class design (must attack at 4 meters) and the other half is they were given no effective means of countering the mobility of other Classes, either by having a way to defeat their control or control the opponent. The one thing that would allow them to compete is Transcendence, but it has the opportunity cost of use and hasn't been a properly fleshed out ability (and for a Heroic Utility, just a root break and not immunity isn't really worth it).

 

So what Marauders really do need is a rework of Transcendence. Give the ability a static cooldown unaffected by Alacrity and make a Heroic or Masterful Utility that grants immobilization protection to the individual who activates the ability while active (I think Knockback immunity is overdoing it, and I have no problems with being knocked back if I don't suffer immobilization penalties from the knockback). Whether it still effects the group I am leaning on yes, but only as a movement speed buff. It's current state of root breaking anyone in range is nice, but it results in the Mara being gimped so other Classes can be more useful, which really hurts in small scale fights like Arenas. I can see the ability being used much more in PvE if people less saw it as a Mara DPS loss, and more as a Mara having a speed bonus card for either themselves or the raid with no downsides to using it. It also wouldn't be that overpowered of an utility since already every class except maybe Merc has a high mobility ability they can use. I am not sure how long the cooldown on Transcendence should be however. If it stays a group buff, then well over a minute. However if it was exclusive to the Marauder, I think it should be less than a minute (I am thinking around 45 seconds).

 

If these changes were implemented, along with some nerfs to the control that high-mobility disciplines like Lightning and Madness now have, that would go a long way to fixing the problem Maras have of being very easy to kite and kill by simply keeping them at Range.

 

Watchman

 

The biggest reason why Sentinels/Marauders in PvE have become rare in my opinion, is due to the changes made to this Discipline in 3.0. The thing is, the issue with this Discipline is_not_damage output. The issue is entirely quality of life and enjoyment of play. Before 3.0 Watchman was a dot spec in damage profile, while it had a fast paced and active playstyle. There were several reasons for this: it's dots had long cooldowns and short durations (short dots also compressed the damage, making them feel more powerful than long duration ones), how often you could use your dots depended on how you used your direct damage attacks (giving the spec synergy), and the spec always had a new important thing for you to do, no real time of spamming something until useful attacks come back.

 

The result of this was to play the spec to maximum effectiveness was your other abilities and the rest of your rotation applied or procced your Dots for them to be smoothly reapplied. This resulted in a pretty smooth, short, and consistent rotation of proc -> reapplication. When a proc failed, you then had to switch up your direct attacks to try and get a proc, when you did you went back to the normal rotation. Therefore the spec combined the need to switch up plans on the fly to react to things, keeping the player engaged. While simultaneously playing rather smoothly and consistently, which kept the fun and enjoyment factor. The result of this was that people_really_liked the old way of playing, and it made Watchman a unique and fun way to play the game.

 

Now with 3.0, all of that focus is gone due to the removal of the old Mind Sear proc, and the spec now having spammable, no cooldown, long duration dots in Cauterize and Force Melt. This removed the playstyle that Annihilation players enjoyed and made it a discount, boring imitation of Madness Assassin. If people want to play a spec like Madness, than they will play Madness and not Annihilation. So if Annihilation is to be a spec people play again, it needs changed to resemble the Annihilation from before 3.0. And being like Annihilation from before 3.0 means that the old Mind Sear proc of Merciless Slash, Slash, and (maybe) Dispatch having % based chances on resetting the 15 second cooldown on a 6 second Cauterize needs to be returned. Until then, Annihilation, and Marauders by extention, will be one of the least used Disciplines in PvE and a shadow of their former selves.

 

Now, the new elements added in the spec besides of how to apply Dots (the TST proc, the idea of Force Melt as an ability, etc) I think are generally fine and should stay. However I think a few tweaks should be done:

• Force Melt should be given a short cooldown similar to Creeping Terror. 6 seconds I think is an optimal cooldown for the ability. The reason for this is I find too many situations where I engage in PvP and end up just putting Force Melt on everything and not using any of my other attacks. Of course the fact that Force Sweep is pretty terrible for Dot Spread does help this. This change will make the player have to engage in their regular rotation more instead of making Watchman a Melee Range tab dotter. I also like the idea of giving the ability and inherent snare instead of needing a utility for it.
  
• Dot Spread from Smash to be changed. Ability delay between activation and the damage being dealt on Smash is far too long and aiming your character with Smash is annoying enough. Changing it so that TST spreads your Dots to affected targets removes an unneeded attack from the Disciplines tool belt, makes it far easier to both spread dots to a target, and it allows you to choose which target you want to apply Dots to by targeting that person.
  
• Increase the proc chance of current Mind Sear (the TST proc) up from 20%. With such a low proc chance a long drought of no proc is far too common to see and is pretty frustrating.
  
• For PvP purposes when I play this spec I typically have issues swapping to new targets, typically while rooted. So in fitting with the Disciplines focus on Force Leap, I think Force Leap should be given a 'can be used while immobilized' effect, similar to Obliterate in Fury. This would give Watchman some much needed mobility to compared to two leaps in Fury, and the passive movement speed increase in Carnage.
  
• Passive Healing from Hungering/Merciless Zeal should get returned to 2% per critical dot hit. If all of the passive healing available to Madness Sorcs and Madness Sins is to stay in game, I don't see why the passive self-healing that Watchman has should continue to be gimped in comparison.
  

 

Carnage

 

While not as drastic as Annihilation, this spec also received some bad changes in 3.0, but these didn't cut into the heart of the spec as much but I think they should be addressed as I really don't enjoy this spec atm (and I really liked it before 3.0). The issues I think come down to that Gore feels too short at a 3 second Window, the spec has depressingly few buttons compared to it's fellow Marauder Disciplines and most other Disciplines in the game, and that it really does need Rupture back in some form.

 

Gore has always been the main feature of Carnage and playing Carnage well is about how well you are able to utilize Gore. In Rise of the Hutt Cartel, Carnage had two rotations, one that had 9 second burst period dual Gore Windows on RNG procs and 10.5 seconds in between windows, one that had a single 4.5 second Gore window with 6 seconds in between Gore. In both of these, Gore seemed to have a reasonable duration and was a really big damage gain. This got toned down in 3.0 to a Gore that lasted just 3 seconds, but has 9 seconds in between Gore. This was done to make Fury the premier burst Discipline over Carnage but I don't think this was accomplished, as what always made Carnage a incredibly bursty spec was the combo of powerful attacks and 100% Armor Pen, regardless of how long Gore is up. The 3 second duration still lets you do the potent combo of Gore + Ravage + Devastating Blast, which can even be accomplished without Berserk if you clip Ravage at the right time. The best way to fix Carnage I believe is to return Gore to 4.5 second Window, but lower the amount of Armor Penetration it offers. This preserves the damage ratios of all the attacks to each other, and it reduces the burst potential of Gore while giving the spec a more sustained and substantive feel to its damage. This would help move the spec to it's natural place of an intermediary of Annihilation's Sustained and Fury's Burst, while still keeping the playstyle of the spec intact.

 

Devastating Blast as an animation pales in comparison to Force Scream and as silly as it sounds, it really is a turn off for playing Carnage. When you used Force Scream the attack had a visual and audio sense of impact that really fit the very powerful hit that Force Scream was in Carnage. Devastating Blast doesn't have that feeling and it feels like a dull and uninteresting ability in comparison, even if it actually hits for more than Force Scream did. Basically what I am saying would help the spec is for the ingame art that was attached to Force Scream and attach it to Devastating Blast instead of the current animation and audio. It would also fit the ability more since Devastating Blast is supposed to be an improvement of Force Scream, when it actually looks identical to Raging Burst in Fury.

 

Another gripe I do have with Carnage is how empty it makes my action bars look now. Before 3.0 the amount of offensive abilities I could use in combat was 2 more than I had at the time (but they were Leg Slash and Cyclone Slash so I didn't care much). Even with the removal of Deadly Throw and Riposte, with Fury and Annihilation I still need to decide whether to leave out either my Stun Break, Leg Slash, or Cyclone Slash. Whenever I play Carnage I can bind all of them with no problem, and still have an empty key on my binds since the Discipline has so few abilities. Excluding Medpacks and Adrenals, Carnage has 25 Abilities I could use in Combat, Annihilation and Fury have 27. Out of those, 8 for Carnage are rotational, 10 are rotational for Fury, and 11 are rotational for Annihilation. Of the 4 abilities you get as Carnage: 2 replace existing attacks, 1 is a passive stance, and only 1 is an original attack. As a result it kinda has a depressing effect on playing the spec since it has such little variety outside of the burst attacks all the spec has is Massacre spam. I think the best way to address this is to bring back Rupture for Carnage. I don't think that it would be a good idea to make it a Sentinel ability again, as Fury has enough abilities as is. I think the best thing is to remove Devastating Blast as an ability for Carnage, give Carnage a new ability that did the same general thing that Rupture did (to give the spec something to do outside Gore besides Massacre spam), and have a passive ability in Carnage that ups the damage of Force Scream (kind of like Fury's passive for Smash) to make it do similar damage to Devastating Blast. This would solve the ability contraction Carnage has while giving the spec something to do besides just hit Massacre over and over.

 

For PvP Carnage also desperately needs a 10 meter range on using Crippling Slash, the spec has huge issues locking anyone down with no ability to control an opponent who is beyond 10 meters. This is less of an issue with Fury due to Force Crush's snare, your two Leaps, and your two snares on your Leaps if you take the Masterful Utility.

 

Fury

 

The design of Fury in 3.0 was one of the good things to happen to Marauders in Shadow of Revan. The rotation has complexity and structure while being straightforward to play, with many tools to control an opponent and move around. All in all, this spec is in a good place and I don't think needs any changes beyond the general class changes mentioned earlier. The loss of Rupture doesn't really hurt this Discipline much imo since it has a plethora of other abilities to choose from now.

 

General Game Balance issues

 

Dot Spead

 

Dot Spread as a mechanic in general has caused more problems than good when it comes to game balance, especially for PvP. Using it in general is fairly clunky for most Disciplines, while is performs very well for Madness Sorcs and Sins and decently well for Virulence Snipers. A lot of what makes Madness overpowered in PvP is how easy it is to dot everything and do massive pressure damage with your dots ticking on all targets. However in PvE, which is very single target focused, Madness Sorcs and Sins are really far behind the curve in PvE damage, and any buff to single target damage would just make them more overpowered in PvP. So there really is no way to buff Madness to make it useful in both areas like it was before 3.0 besides removing Dot Spread.

 

In general, I don't think Dot spread is a necessary mechanic to make Dot specs viabile for PvP. Before 3.0, Dot specs performed superior to their Burst spec counterparts for: Sorcs, Sins, Vanguards, and Juggernauts. Only for Marauders, Operatives, and Commando's were the burst specs better, and for Maras that was due to mobility problems in Anni, low damage and survivability in Lethality (in general this spec was bad at everything), and cast dependence in Pyro. Snipers were generally equal between Marksman and Lethality. So long as Dot specs do a few hundred more DPS than their burst counterparts, they will be viable in PvP assuming an equal fight and they have the same general mobility as the burst discipline. This is due to the simple reason that the setup and early death issues of dot specs are remedied by the fact that they do more damage when they have time to do their normal damage. Dot spread was never a needed mechanic and I think the game would be better off without it. And in general I think the game should move away from a focus on just putting dots on all the things, which is a fairly lame gameplay mechanic.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[shadowopsx]

tl;dr QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ Edited January 8, 2015 by shadowopsx

[Emperor-Norton]

tl;dr QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Also this.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[Cotlu-Hunlon]

Devs are

till it becomes the one streamers play to see if they can pull good numbers with a terrible spec Edited January 8, 2015 by Cotlu-Hunlon

[Dyvim]

A simple summary would be that sent/mara, as a melee, resource building style class, is particularly susceptible to CC and other time on target issues. Yet the class has nothing, certainly nothing beyond other ranged classes, that really mitigates these inherent deficiencies. Try playing a serenity shadow. Try taking on a Jug...or a sniper now...literally snipers bunker up, so no leap, slow us, dps wail on us, and if we force camo or manage to close, period, then can quick roll away and reset their cover...basically you have little to no chance. Same with a Jug....their DCDs are superior, their damage as good or BETTER...so you have little chance...and have little to offer in the mix of classes. Sent/mara's would never, ever be picked on the MMO playground.

 

So a class that has inherent design challenges is currently suffering from some of the feeblest and MOST uninspired design in the game.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Dyvim

[Projawa]

Good post. Don't expect substantial changes until 4.0 at the earliest.

[TakoyaKii]

I don't believe Anni is in a position as bad as you described.

The old rupture I did like it better since it had the proc to keep an eye on and the dmg was higher/X/time wich made it more bursty. (still the new dot isn't that bad spammable)

I can't dig the fact that smash spreads the dots and does no dmg at all while other classes get a pretty heavy hitter as a dot spammer.

So either we get a stronger dmg on smash or we use something else to spread them (TST) wich would also save us the use of an extra ability.

Force rend makes no sense to me, why does it have a 18sec duration? It doesn't allign with anything except the 3 annihilate attacks that proc it. (I still think this dot is useless and should have been the new rupture instead of a second dot) Like devastating blast for carnage, just make it a placeholder for rupture (cheaper, more dmg, better duration, auto spams 5m when applied on target) that would have made more sense that this.

I think that the smash problem is the big problem of the spec (higher dmg or different ability to spread) that needs fixing.

Mobility is a class problem and not a spec one that needs major fixing.

Edited January 8, 2015 by TakoyaKii

[calamatiesend]

I liked the OP's ideas and agree with most of the analysis that he/she put forth. Peronally, I still find it insulting that currently we are 200-300 dps behind other top parses as one of the only dps classes.....

 

My ideas for changes:

 

1. Bring back 2% self heal on Watchmen/Anni

2. Make DST spread dots, so both smash and DST can spread if your going to keep that mechanic. Makes more sense for the spec anyway.

3. Pred/Trans is 30 sec cd 8 sec run speed buff for group, can be double casted with frenzy and has utility to make sent/mara immune to roots/slows for the duration. Is affected by alacrity though(carnage can once again be a slightly more mobile spec since thats what ataru is suppose to be anyway)

4. Force camo cleanses baseline

5. deadly throw/crippling throw is back and leg slash is removed. Can add in 3 sec root with utility but always brings 50% slow and trauma debuff at 10m range.

6. UR/GbtF health is taken on activation like pre 2.5

7. Our 30% aoe dmg reduction talent gets either 30% less damage while stunned or 30% less damage from dots added in to be on par with other classes.

8. Make anni/watchmen faster/more exciting by adding back some form of dot reset like it had with rupture

9. Definitely change clashing/devastating blast back into force scream animation..... thats a must......

10. Fix maras surge bonus talents...... anni should get surge bonus per stack of juyo(3% in my opinion maybe 4%) for dots and for annihilate/merc slash Carnage/Combat should have surge bonus to ataru form crits and VT/dispatch like all other specs with execute proc, and Fury should get a slight dmg increase to a buffed smash(no we do not need 15k hits but right now I can do like 6-7k with Koan and when I compare that to sins/shadows DF/FiB that does the same plus spread dots, something seems a little fishy)

 

Would like to see smash back up to 9-10k but only with Koan buff/relics proc etc...... So Fury can put some aoe pressure on groups as well.

 

Edit: 11. Bring gore back to 4.5 seconds and off GCD or if you wanna leave it on GCD at least buff it to 4.5 or 6 seconds. The 3 seconds right now with server lag is pathetic......

 

I do not expect all of these but the devs should at least get some ideas as to how to help us.

Edited January 8, 2015 by calamatiesend

[waterboytkd]

Lots of good stuff here. Especially the class changes (as opposed to discipline specific ones). GbtF/UR and Tran/Pred need to be fixed/reworked.

 

Personally, not a huge fan of putting DoTs back into Carnage, though I 100% agree that the spec needs more abilities. Massacre spam is stupid boring. One suggestion that seemed more "redesign the spec for intellectual excercise" than practical has been growing on me: change Ataru Savvy so that it also applies to Slash/Vicious Slash. Then change Blade Rush/Massacre so it's just a different attack with a cooldown. That way, Blade Rush/Massacre doesn't replace Slash/VS. One idea I had was to make Blade Rush/Massacre an off-hand-only attack that is OFF the GCD (so not much damage), has a 6 second cooldown, costs very little focus/rage, and grants the Blade Rush/Massacre buff. That would also help in getting more abilities into a Gore window.

 

Also agree about CB/DB replacing Blade Storm/Force Scream. The latter abilities have sweet animations and are iconic. The former are kinda bland. Rather than scrapping the former, though, change them so they're a secondary ability for the spec (like Concentrated Slice/Furious Strike for Focus/Rage and Concentration/Fury). So, as you suggested, a buff to bring BS/FS to current CB/DB damage values, and set the CB/DB damage values at something a little lower/more appropriate for dps targets. But still allow everything that affects BS/FS to also affect CB/DB (so Opportune Attack/Execute still give an auto-crit, etc.). This would create a rotation where you would use your auto-Ataru proc between BS/FS and CB/DB to re-proc your Execute, and would absolutely raise the desire for Alacrity for the spec as you'd want to be able to Gore+FS (0s) -> auto-Ataru attack (<1.5s) -> DB (<3.0s).

 

So it would have the effect of adding 1 more ability to Combat/Carnage, bringing it up to a respectable number, as well as thicken its rotation. It'd also probably require a retooling of the Set Bonus, and might even affect Hand of Justice/Slaughter (I could see that ability once again becoming a 45% proc chance, rather than 100%, if CB/DB got their own cooldown).

 

But, perhaps the most important change for Carnage (and it'd be nice for Anni, too, though probably a drop in the bucket for Fury) is turning Crippling Slash into Deadly Throw. That needs to be a 10m attack (with a cooldown). Then the utility for it needs to be Displacement as it was pre 3.0 (that is: +6m to Obfuscate's range, Deadly Throw applies a 3s root) in the Masterful tier. Cloak of Pain shouldn't be the "while stunned" DCD anyways--that should be GbtF/UR.

[Kurkina]

tl;dr QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

 

Any 16-year old with a Legacy Name like Dovakiin can write that ... show a little respect, Emperor Norton is a veteran of the sentinel forums.

[giorgo]

While most suggestions are good ,reducing gore's armor penetration is a bad idea. 100% armor penetration is the benchmark of combat spec since launch.Afterall combat spec already has a talent that reduces target's armor by 20%. What combat really needs,except crippling throw back,is not cauterize either.It needs a replacement for riposte.Yes thats right,an ability that deals medium amount of damage and doesnt respect the gcd.

[cs_zoltan]

Transcendence/Predation

I am not sure how long the cooldown on Transcendence should be however. If it stays a group buff, then well over a minute. However if it was exclusive to the Marauder, I think it should be less than a minute (I am thinking around 45 seconds).

That cd would be overkill. In PVP with Carange I always spammed Pred and could do it every 15-20sec depending how much damage I took.

So a 20-30sec cd with 1-3 Rage cost would be sufficient imo (not to mention Juggs have a 50% boost with no cd that costs 0-2 rage).

 

Carnage

 

Another gripe I do have with Carnage is how empty it makes my action bars look now. Before 3.0 the amount of offensive abilities I could use in combat was 2 more than I had at the time (but they were Leg Slash and Cyclone Slash so I didn't care much). Even with the removal of Deadly Throw and Riposte, with Fury and Annihilation I still need to decide whether to leave out either my Stun Break, Leg Slash, or Cyclone Slash. Whenever I play Carnage I can bind all of them with no problem, and still have an empty key on my binds since the Discipline has so few abilities. Excluding Medpacks and Adrenals, Carnage has 25 Abilities I could use in Combat, Annihilation and Fury have 27. Out of those, 8 for Carnage are rotational, 10 are rotational for Fury, and 11 are rotational for Annihilation. Of the 4 abilities you get as Carnage: 2 replace existing attacks, 1 is a passive stance, and only 1 is an original attack. As a result it kinda has a depressing effect on playing the spec since it has such little variety outside of the burst attacks all the spec has is Massacre spam. I think the best way to address this is to bring back Rupture for Carnage. I don't think that it would be a good idea to make it a Sentinel ability again, as Fury has enough abilities as is. I think the best thing is to remove Devastating Blast as an ability for Carnage, give Carnage a new ability that did the same general thing that Rupture did (to give the spec something to do outside Gore besides Massacre spam), and have a passive ability in Carnage that ups the damage of Force Scream (kind of like Fury's passive for Smash) to make it do similar damage to Devastating Blast. This would solve the ability contraction Carnage has while giving the spec something to do besides just hit Massacre over and over.

I don't agree with this. Not every spec needs 10+ rotational abilities. There's nothing wrong with Marauders having 1 spec out of 3 with less abilities.

 

Dot Spead

 

Dot Spread as a mechanic in general has caused more problems than good when it comes to game balance, especially for PvP. Using it in general is fairly clunky for most Disciplines, while is performs very well for Madness Sorcs and Sins and decently well for Virulence Snipers. A lot of what makes Madness overpowered in PvP is how easy it is to dot everything and do massive pressure damage with your dots ticking on all targets. However in PvE, which is very single target focused, Madness Sorcs and Sins are really far behind the curve in PvE damage, and any buff to single target damage would just make them more overpowered in PvP. So there really is no way to buff Madness to make it useful in both areas like it was before 3.0 besides removing Dot Spread.

 

In general, I don't think Dot spread is a necessary mechanic to make Dot specs viabile for PvP. Before 3.0, Dot specs performed superior to their Burst spec counterparts for: Sorcs, Sins, Vanguards, and Juggernauts. Only for Marauders, Operatives, and Commando's were the burst specs better, and for Maras that was due to mobility problems in Anni, low damage and survivability in Lethality (in general this spec was bad at everything), and cast dependence in Pyro. Snipers were generally equal between Marksman and Lethality. So long as Dot specs do a few hundred more DPS than their burst counterparts, they will be viable in PvP assuming an equal fight and they have the same general mobility as the burst discipline. This is due to the simple reason that the setup and early death issues of dot specs are remedied by the fact that they do more damage when they have time to do their normal damage. Dot spread was never a needed mechanic and I think the game would be better off without it. And in general I think the game should move away from a focus on just putting dots on all the things, which is a fairly lame gameplay mechanic.

 

I don't think DoT spread was implemented for PVP but to give every spec AoE capabilities like they said in one of the Class Rep answers. Burst spec have 15% crit and 30% surge on an AoE ability while sustained specs have DoT spread.

It is too powerful for some specs and useless for others though, and it's really clear why. Specs that have spread with a rotational ability are too stronk while those who have it on situational AoEs that are not very good to begin with are not that strong.

So I think they should just nerf Madness/Hatred/Virulance by putting spread on non-rotational AoE. (And also make IO spread a single ability, it's not fair )

 

 

Anything else I didn't quote I agree with wholeheartedly.

Edited January 8, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Aldael]

While i don't agree with every solution you propose (really don't like the penalty on precision/gore armor penetration) I think you got a very good diagnosis of sentinel/marauder troubles.

[Eastiano]

I think a short 'dash' sort of ability, not as long as sorcs/sages but along the lines of starkillers dash in the force unleashed would help with mobility issues in pvp. Probably just wishful thinking tho as I'm always pressing my scoundrel 'roll' after logging back on my sent or mara and thinking, hmmm.... It's not working?

 

But seriously devs, do something cos it was better before 3.0

[Ardarell_Solo]

Thanks for the comprehensive write-up, brilliant and to the point as always! :-)

 

I'd be enthusiastic, if the class looked the way described here soon. I had some ideas and propositions as well, but to me it's not a matter of how exactly to get there but to get there at all: Make the class fun to play again and - concerning my true love Watchman: a little more bursty and target-switchy.

 

What Emperor Norton has described is aggravated by current content design imo. Even in Dread Ops Watchman would have been a lot worse to play than it was pre 3.0, but Ravagers and Temple are designed in a way you're generally stupid if you bring two melee DPS. Yeah, you might do it once you're farming, but for progression you'd make fights harder on yourself to an extent that is just plain stupid.

 

That's why I'm on my Slinger for half of progression fights now. Which is not what I would have chosen to do.

 

TBH even if Sentinels were improved the way suggested, we'd still have that issue. But it might be outweighed by what Sents would bring to their group. I'd see myself returning to my Watchman Sent for at least three of the fights I'm on my Slinger for now, if the changes suggested here were applied.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[Bugattiboy]

Good post. Don't expect substantial changes until 4.0 at the earliest.

Or at all. When was the last time EA rolled back a change?

 

That's why I'm on my Slinger for half of progression fights now. Which is not what I would have chosen to do.

Just curious, what spec is your gunslinger?

Edited January 8, 2015 by Bugattiboy

[g_mK]

Some thoughts:

GBtF: Agreed

Predation/Transcendence: Agreed:

Watchman: Agreed

Combat: This is where I differ in opinion

Though I would like to see a 4.5 sec PS window back, I wouldn't like to reduce armor penetration. One option would be to return zen to it's 2.0 value where it didn't refund focus. Yet all in all I can live the 3.0 iteration of combat. (2.10 was probably the best)

Also I have to say that I DO like the DB animation over Blade storm and force scream I don't want to go back to BS/FS animation.

[Bryanseven]

Thanks Emperor Norton for this write up.

 

I agree that Transcendence / Predation needs reworked, the opportunity cost is really high and even if you pop it there is no guarantee you will not be rooted on the very next gcd.

 

My suggestion like others have said is to rework predation into a cool down and actually I favor making it into an attack, a secondary ground based charge that does moderate damage in a line between your starting location and your target that purges all movement impairing effects and grants immunity for the duration.

 

Animation could be like force speed but with sabers spinning. Marauder definitely needs some more FUN abilities, like force charge.

 

Juggernauts all get a secondary leap in intercede, I think we should get a secondary 30 meter one as an attack.

[XeniusX]

OP: Nice writeup m8. I agree for the most part of what you write. two things however: I do not want to be forced to play Fury just because it has better burst, i would like to see Carnage be a viable option in PvP too when it comes to burst and i think that is achieved with the 100 % armor penetration.

 

What i would like to see instead of reducing armor pen like you said is that we get a nerf on other areas outside Gore. Gore back to pre 3.0 length and getting an ability that only works during Gore for instance that could be our new massacre (insert cool animation) that does slightly/way more damage and thus can be the third and/or fourth attack we can fit in too the Gore window (depending on alacrity.

 

Your Predation change is valid but the cooldown could easily be 40-45 seconds (since its a group buff) considering how often PT's and VG's have HO available.

[Projawa]

Or at all. When was the last time EA rolled back a change?

 

Carnage 3.0 is similar to how it was in 1.x

Not identical, but very similar.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Projawa

[XeniusX]

Carnage 3.0 is similar to how it was in 1.x

Not identical, but very similar.

 

Except crap Ravage, no root 10 m ability, no retaliation for 1v1s/extra burst and no rupture filler for tanks/heavy armor.. other than that similar yea

[Projawa]

I'm looking at it from a PVE standpoint where the core rotation concept is very similar. No Execute RNG, Berserk back to what it was, Slaughter is new but it complements the rotation rather than being the gooey RNG ingredient in 2.x core rotation (as fun as that was), massacre spam is more prominent now as in 1.x Edited January 8, 2015 by Projawa

[saremun]

Put simply, ......

 

WOW man, that is what i call it true love lol, thank you very much and keep it up!

[Emperor-Norton]

Though I would like to see a 4.5 sec PS window back, I wouldn't like to reduce armor penetration. One option would be to return zen to it's 2.0 value where it didn't refund focus. Yet all in all I can live the 3.0 iteration of combat. (2.10 was probably the best)

Also I have to say that I DO like the DB animation over Blade storm and force scream I don't want to go back to BS/FS animation.

While most suggestions are good ,reducing gore's armor penetration is a bad idea. 100% armor penetration is the benchmark of combat spec since launch.Afterall combat spec already has a talent that reduces target's armor by 20%. What combat really needs,except crippling throw back,is not cauterize either.It needs a replacement for riposte.Yes thats right,an ability that deals medium amount of damage and doesnt respect the gcd.

While I agree that the 100% Armor Pen made Carnage iconic and I know a lot of people like it, it is just too good. So long as you have total armor ignore for Ravage + Force Scream, you could just about global people if things lined up 3.0. While the burst potential did go down a bit due to the Ravage nerf, no Gore damage, and the general 3.0 Damage vs HP changes, it can still hit incredibly hard. I did a test on my 186 Sentinel with a bit under 47k HP (with new Augments + Inspiration + Adrenal) and did a 41k Gore window in Combat with just Ravage + Devastating Blast. While 2/3 Ravage MH ticks critted (including the final one), that damage is just insane. Fury is nowhere near as bursty, with just as much crit luck you can get just under 40k with Raging Burst, then Master Strike, then Furious Strike. Without Raging Burst it is barely 30k damage.

 

Even if people don't want to lose absolute Armor Pen (It would probably get lowered to 70% or so), it is needed to bring Carnage below Fury in terms of burst potential without bringing everything up to AP's level of lulzy. It also allows Gore to be lengthened back beyond the super short 3 seconds that is really too short.

That cd would be overkill. In PVP with Carange I always spammed Pred and could do it every 15-20sec depending how much damage I took.

So a 20-30sec cd with 1-3 Rage cost would be sufficient imo (not to mention Juggs have a 50% boost with no cd that costs 0-2 rage).

 

I don't think DoT spread was implemented for PVP but to give every spec AoE capabilities like they said in one of the Class Rep answers. Burst spec have 15% crit and 30% surge on an AoE ability while sustained specs have DoT spread.

It is too powerful for some specs and useless for others though, and it's really clear why. Specs that have spread with a rotational ability are too stronk while those who have it on situational AoEs that are not very good to begin with are not that strong.

So I think they should just nerf Madness/Hatred/Virulance by putting spread on non-rotational AoE. (And also make IO spread a single ability, it's not fair )

If you spam Pred on live you can get it up between every 15 to 20 seconds (depending on spec). If it had that cooldown in the proposed changes you really buff Maras by letting them get Berserk and Pred at the rates that they could get only one before. Plus a 20-30 second cooldown for a 10 second movement speed buff is way too short. 45 I think is around the point where Marauders won't be easy to control, but not uncontrollable. If it stays a group buff a longer cooldown makes it useful situationally, but doesn't let the Marauder allow the group to trivialize every movement phase.

 

With Sorcs the only two AOEs it can be attached to are Force Storm and Death Field, because those are the only two AOEs for Madness Sorcs. Sins have Lacerate and Death Field. For what benefit Dot spread may have, it really isn't worth it for how clunky it makes gameplay. It is either too clunky to work or too useless without having to design a ton of new abilities. And for the following Dot specs: Watchman, Pyro, Vengeance, Madness, Engineering, and Hatred they already have built in AOE abilities to augment the spam ones (Cyclone Slash, Lacerate, Suppressive Fire, etc). The only exceptions are Innovative Ordinance and Virulence/Lethality (last ones sorta do, because Corrosive Grenade). I think it would be easier to just give Lethality the means of dot spread Virulence has (which may make it the only one in the game) and return the spread range on Corrosive Grenade to what it was before 3.0. IO I am not sure about, but that is one spec that may need a change by buffing an AOE attack Merc has, instead of trying to make dot spread work for the rest of them.

 

Also my sub expired Yesterday, why am I able to post?

Edited January 9, 2015 by Emperor-Norton

[g_mK]

Also, my sub expired Yesterday, why am I able to post?

 

Because you are special