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Eric and Combat Devs, Please Explain This.


Manweth

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http://i.imgur.com/87S3Mzx.jpg

 

 

"All classes are more balanced now."

 

REALLY?

 

Please, give some explanation on this.

 

The Kephess in the background is a running gag in swtor if thats what you're asking :p

 

Anyway, they raid stack not for those classes being the best, but because they are the easiest class for a single section of that HM fight. They will release the video of what said mechanic is when more guilds kill it (also they are going after HM Revan with other comps right now, though i'm not sure how successfully)

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There's a pair of mechanics in HM Revan that can be almost completely deleted if you have bounty hunters. There's another mechanic that makes part of the fight extremely inconvenient if you have melee. Thus, mercs!

 

Why is it like this? Uh… Yeah. This content was on the PTS. I have very little doubt that feedback on this point was given. Hopefully, at some point, Bioware will adjust the fight so that the aforementioned pair of mechanics can't be trivialized by one class. Obviously, to date, they have not done so.

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Assassins were cheezing mechanics since time immemorial and no one bats an eye,

Mercs are best for 1 boss and everyone loses their mind.

 

Problem is, no assassin also has best DPS numbers, dummy AND real fights, the best survivability (arguably even on par with a melee, guardian) and best mobility.

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Problem is, no assassin also has best DPS numbers, dummy AND real fights, the best survivability (arguably even on par with a melee, guardian) and best mobility.

 

Sigh, because IO currently has the best dummy parse and Zorz decided to stack them everyone is like "hurr durr IO op nerf it nao!!!"

 

The one thing they forget to think about that the only thing IO has going for it is range, dps and mobility.

They have one of the strictest rotation and resource management, if not the strictest. Because of that their target switching capability is abysmal, their sustained AoE is a joke and their DoT spread is the worst (I mean really? everyone has a single ability that spreads the DoTs, why IO needs 2?).

Distruption to the rotation is hard to fix or require waiting out, both is a substantial dps loss. Execute phase is so thight that it's unsustainable without cooldowns (which you got on a 1m dummy parse, hence the high dps).

 

It's no IO's fault that BW went ahead and decided that they gona make almost every boss single target sustained DPS friendly and have no variety.

 

Also the IO parses are from one of the best players in almost BiS gear on the 1m dummy, and they are lucky parses even.

I mean before 2.4or5 when there were no dummy HP modules people would've laugh at those parses. Like what do they want with a 3min parse, get back when you parsed for 5min....

 

 

And best survivability? Don't make me laugh.

 

 

PS: Sure, nerf IO's damage, but not without QoL buffs or it won't worth to play once they make operations less one sided.

Edited by cs_zoltan
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They beat Revan first week of 3.0. Did they do so in Dread Master gear plus a few 192/198 pieces picked up along the way? If you have to stack a certain comp to beat the fight "undergeared" that's fine since I assume ToS HM is designed for 192/198 mix.

 

Or did Zorz manage to gear up far faster than intended, and still have to stack Mercs?

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:rak_02:

Sure switch out a tank with a jugg or a healer with a sorc, no one notice.

 

 

You WOULD notice when you switch out those merc dpsers tho.

 

No, this NEEDS to be explained by someone actually being paid by Bioware.

 

I demand answers!

 

But oh wait, you aren't telling me what I want to hear, so your argument is invalid because you are not a dev!

 

I christen this the "argumentum ad devum"

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PS: Sure, nerf IO's damage, but not without QoL buffs or it won't worth to play once they make operations less one sided.

 

IO's difficulty and movement/fight/downtime penalties have been vastly overstated. Vastly, insanely overstated. Is it hard to apply to a boss? Sure. Does it thus deserve an inflation of its dummy DPS to compensate for some of what it loses? Absolutely. It's not even remotely unique in this regard though, and there are actually specs which are even harder, just with less loud constituents.

 

Let me introduce you to Lightning, the latest OP FOTM AOE-SPAMMER. One tiny bit of pushback at the wrong moment and your proc ICDs become misaligned with your rotation. Lag will also do, especially if you're coming off an alacrity block. The only way to get these ICDs back into alignment is to track the alacrity modified ICD in your head by watching your buff bar for the random alacrity proc and counting very carefully, then hitting Force Speed two GCDs in advance of the ICD to inch the activation back, one cycle at a time. And yes, the misalignment of this ICD does have a very significant DPS impact, particularly if you have the 6pc set bonus (though the 6pc means you don't have the 4pc, which makes the ICD marginally easier to track).

 

Or how about Ruffian? A spec that has energy which is just as tight as IO, setup time which is two GCDs longer, a rotation-altering ICD that is two GCDs slower, and is MELEE without any physics immunity. Oh yeah, and Ruffian's rotation orients around a ninety second cycle, following an intricate and situational priority queue in between. Oh yeah, and the energy is random.

 

Or even better, I'd like to see all the IO players complaining about complexity and punishment try the 3-cull Virulence rotation. You think IO's energy is tight? Try a spec that has tight energy and has randomized regen! You think IO's internal cooldowns are punishing? Try a 24 second cooldown-bounded rotation with a sub-1s margin for error, beyond which your DPS drops like a stone and you have no mechanism for recovery until the next cycle. At least with IO, you can always breathe for a split second before hitting Power Shot if you know the ICD is misaligned.

 

And the resource-intensive execute? You don't use it except when you have cooldowns up, which BTW exist on bosses just as well as they exist on dummies.

 

Frankly, IO is no more complicated than counting to four and looking at your energy bar once every 15 seconds. The DPS it does is completely out of proportion, both to its difficulty and the penalties it suffers translating that DPS to a boss. Apparently movement and downtime are a problem for IO… except apparently not much of a problem since IO parses over 500 DPS better than Arsenal on HM Sword Squadron. Literally the only bosses where you don't use IO in this tier are bosses where you have to target swap every few seconds (and by "few seconds" I mean "three GCDs"). If IO were actually balanced, then Arsenal would be competitive with it, at least on fights that penalize IO for its weaknesses. If IO were actually balanced, then other classes would be able to get numbers that at least approach what it's doing on most bosses.

 

IO is overpowered. It's not meriting of the DPS that it does by virtue of "complexity" or "boss penalties". It's simply overpowered and it needs to be nerfed by quite a bit.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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I think KBN nailed it with all the info much better than anyone else in the world bar a math genius, so I'm no longer asking for a technical explanation from bioware.

 

 

I just wanna know what were they smoking when they designed 3.0 IO, coz that must be some good stuff.

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IO's difficulty and movement/fight/downtime penalties have been vastly overstated. Vastly, insanely overstated. Is it hard to apply to a boss? Sure. Does it thus deserve an inflation of its dummy DPS to compensate for some of what it loses? Absolutely. It's not even remotely unique in this regard though, and there are actually specs which are even harder, just with less loud constituents.

 

I never said those. My problem with it is the distruption to rotation is a huge dps loss and because of the strict rotation target switching is bad.

 

Let me introduce you to Lightning, the latest OP FOTM AOE-SPAMMER. One tiny bit of pushback at the wrong moment and your proc ICDs become misaligned with your rotation. Lag will also do, especially if you're coming off an alacrity block. The only way to get these ICDs back into alignment is to track the alacrity modified ICD in your head by watching your buff bar for the random alacrity proc and counting very carefully, then hitting Force Speed two GCDs in advance of the ICD to inch the activation back, one cycle at a time. And yes, the misalignment of this ICD does have a very significant DPS impact, particularly if you have the 6pc set bonus (though the 6pc means you don't have the 4pc, which makes the ICD marginally easier to track).

ICDs? Afaik it only has one which is CL proc, which is proced by TD, which has a 9sec cd and 1.5 sec cast time, which means a 1sec pushback buffer.

Not a lot of boss has that much sustained raid wide dps for that to be a worldshaking issue. If you ment something else though just says so.

 

And really you just brought up another OP spec that has magnitudes higher burst yet still competative sustained dps as well?

 

Or how about Ruffian? A spec that has energy which is just as tight as IO, setup time which is two GCDs longer, a rotation-altering ICD that is two GCDs slower, and is MELEE without any physics immunity. Oh yeah, and Ruffian's rotation orients around a ninety second cycle, following an intricate and situational priority queue in between. Oh yeah, and the energy is random.

I parsed a bunch, lvl'd with it from 55 to 60 and played a buttload of pvp with it, but never had any energy probelms with it (maybe i'm doing it wrong...), not to mention you can jsut get some crit and have better energy management. IO can't do that.

Two GCD longer setup? 2 dots + TB is 3, what else is there? But anyway IO's bad target switching comes form that fact that it has a strict 15sec rotation so you can't just swap at any time, or if you do it's a harsher dps loss than it is for Leth.

Leth is hard I give you that, but using a wrong ability doesn't result you literally wasting the next 15second fixing your rotation.

Or even better, I'd like to see all the IO players complaining about complexity and punishment try the 3-cull Virulence rotation. You think IO's energy is tight? Try a spec that has tight energy and has randomized regen! You think IO's internal cooldowns are punishing? Try a 24 second cooldown-bounded rotation with a sub-1s margin for error, beyond which your DPS drops like a stone and you have no mechanism for recovery until the next cycle. At least with IO, you can always breathe for a split second before hitting Power Shot if you know the ICD is misaligned.

IO is not complex, but unforgiving. Since I don't know 3.0 Virulance I'm not gona argue over this.

And the resource-intensive execute? You don't use it except when you have cooldowns up, which BTW exist on bosses just as well as they exist on dummies.

Yes but Bosses usually have longer execute phase than a 1m dummy with 5k dps:rolleyes:...And after a lot of parsin you can just memorize the dummy fight to know when to save a cooldown. I know exactly when to pop a cd when I'm parsing to have it back up by the time I'm overheating in execute phase.

Boss pulls are different enough to not be able to do that 100% accurately.

 

Frankly, IO is no more complicated than counting to four and looking at your energy bar once every 15 seconds. The DPS it does is completely out of proportion, both to its difficulty and the penalties it suffers translating that DPS to a boss. Apparently movement and downtime are a problem for IO… except apparently not much of a problem since IO parses over 500 DPS better than Arsenal on HM Sword Squadron. Literally the only bosses where you don't use IO in this tier are bosses where you have to target swap every few seconds (and by "few seconds" I mean "three GCDs"). If IO were actually balanced, then Arsenal would be competitive with it, at least on fights that penalize IO for its weaknesses. If IO were actually balanced, then other classes would be able to get numbers that at least approach what it's doing on most bosses.

Can we please drop the hyperboles? If it'd be that easy than everyone and their dog would parse 5k+. And Arsenal is at the bottom of the barrel as usual so no wonder it doesn't compete with IO. But you got it almost right, there's only 2 boss that penalize IO and there Arsenal IS better.

Movement and downtime are not bad for IO, idk who says that.

 

But you conveniently ignored some of my point, I'd like to see your input on these:

Because of that their target switching capability is abysmal, their sustained AoE is a joke and their DoT spread is the worst (I mean really? everyone has a single ability that spreads the DoTs, why IO needs 2?).

 

It's no IO's fault that BW went ahead and decided that they gona make almost every boss single target sustained DPS friendly and have no variety.

 

Also the IO parses are from one of the best players in almost BiS gear on the 1m dummy, and they are lucky parses even.

I mean before 2.4or5 when there were no dummy HP modules people would've laugh at those parses. Like what do they want with a 3min parse, get back when you parsed for 5min....

 

And I don't even know what people base it on that IO is heads and shoulders above everything else? Is there a dummy or ops dps leaderboard I missed?

(Oh and since Zorz were world first and stacked BHs this class is one of the first to get BiS gear)

 

I never understood why PVE always wants nerfs so badly, like it's painful for you to get outparsed? As long as every class and spec is viable what's the point?

IO's damage imo is not that much of a concern that we can't wait for the meta to settle down and start up the dps leaderboards with the 1.5m dummy to get an ample and accurate sample size of parses.

They should nerf the PVP shenanigans before cater for the bruised ego of some outparsed PVE player (I don't mean you KBN, I know for you balance above all). PVE balance is as nearly important as PVP, but it can wait more.

 

PS: I only raid once in a blue moon, I mostly PVP with IO.

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I think KBN nailed it with all the info much better than anyone else in the world bar a math genius, so I'm no longer asking for a technical explanation from bioware.

 

 

I just wanna know what were they smoking when they designed 3.0 IO, coz that must be some good stuff.

 

Nerfing IO won't make you a better guardian though :rolleyes:

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I never said those. My problem with it is the distruption to rotation is a huge dps loss and because of the strict rotation target switching is bad.

 

The target swapping is a lot better than Virulence. You can actually do things to a target without your DoTs being up. The only thing you can't use is Mag Bolt, and even that you can use if you get lucky on your Plasma Cell procs.

 

ICDs? Afaik it only has one which is CL proc, which is proced by TD, which has a 9sec cd and 1.5 sec cast time, which means a 1sec pushback buffer.

 

It would be extremely nice if Chain Lightning were only proc'd by Thundering Blast. It is also proc'd by Lightning Bolt, which is where the problem comes in. Lightning Bolt hits at the end of its cast, which in the ideal case will be the tail end of the sixth GCD following Thundering Blast. However, the random alacrity proc, Polarity Shift and pushback can misalign the GCD to this window. Additionally, due to rounding errors, alacrity affects cooldowns differently than the GCD (this is a problem that IO has as well with Vent Heat and the alacrity raid buff), meaning that the CL ICD can get thrown significantly out of alignment with Thundering Blast.

 

If you have the old 4pc set bonus (and you're a Sorc), unless your APM is perfect and your lag is non-existent, you will accidentally proc Chain Lightning with a Lightning Bolt even on a dummy prior to your fourth Thundering Blast. Realigning the ICD on a dummy can happen just by maintaining optimal APM, not getting unlucky with alacrity procs and by the natural drift of Crushing Darkness and Lightning Flash. On a boss, you usually have to use a well timed Force Speed.

 

Incidentally, misalignment of the Chain Lightning proc results in ultimate delay of Recklessness, as well as sometimes delay of other abilities. In the absolute best case, your rotation loses its predictability and you aren't able to optimize the tail end of your Polarity Shift or adrenal quite as well. All of these things add up to an observable DPS loss.

 

Not a lot of boss has that much sustained raid wide dps for that to be a worldshaking issue. If you ment something else though just says so.

 

Actually most bosses in this tier have enough sustained raid wide damage for it to be a worldshaking issue. All but one boss in ToS, along with three of the bosses in Ravagers have sufficiently frequent pushback for it to be a legitimate problem.

 

And really you just brought up another OP spec that has magnitudes higher burst yet still competative sustained dps as well?

 

Yep, Lightning also needs a nerf. Not quite as serious as IO (assuming that the whole Force Storm insanity is dealt with separately), but still a nerf.

 

I parsed a bunch, lvl'd with it from 55 to 60 and played a buttload of pvp with it, but never had any energy probelms with it (maybe i'm doing it wrong...), not to mention you can jsut get some crit and have better energy management. IO can't do that.

 

If you're doing the rotation correctly, there is a convergence roughly once every 32 seconds where energy is a serious question, and an epi-convergence once every 8 seconds where energy is interesting (depending on crits).

 

Two GCD longer setup? 2 dots + TB is 3, what else is there? But anyway IO's bad target switching comes form that fact that it has a strict 15sec rotation so you can't just swap at any time, or if you do it's a harsher dps loss than it is for Leth.

 

You need a Shiv in there too, unless you're coming off another target. Even then, you still need to Shiv at some point to ensure your debuffs are up.

 

Also, IO can swap at literally any time other than right before a Mag Bolt. You can't move your DoTs over, but all of the rest of your rotation is independent of whether or not your DoTs are on the target. Lethality can do…Lethal Strike…and that's about it.

 

Leth is hard I give you that, but using a wrong ability doesn't result you literally wasting the next 15second fixing your rotation.

 

Actually, use the wrong ability at the wrong time (like it one of those convergences I mentioned) and you'll spend the full 90 second cycle trying to fix your energy and cooldown alignment (which you will ultimately do by delaying an ability, to the detriment of your DPS). I have parses which show this in action.

 

IO is not complex, but unforgiving. Since I don't know 3.0 Virulance I'm not gona argue over this.

 

IO's forgiveness rotates around a 7.5 second ICD. If you mess up that ICD, you sacrifice something to get it back in alignment. Yes, that is highly annoying, but it's still fixable, and fixable relatively quickly.

 

Yes but Bosses usually have longer execute phase than a 1m dummy with 5k dps:rolleyes:...And after a lot of parsin you can just memorize the dummy fight to know when to save a cooldown. I know exactly when to pop a cd when I'm parsing to have it back up by the time I'm overheating in execute phase.

Boss pulls are different enough to not be able to do that 100% accurately.

 

Yes, but this is what I mean. IO's rotation is perfectly static. The reason the execute on a boss feels so problematic to you is because it lasts longer than the scripted sequence on a dummy. I'm not criticizing you here; the rotation is static and there's no reason not to work in terms of the familiar sequences. Virulence and Lethality operate in terms of this "unscripted, unfamiliar situation" for 100% of their rotation, all the time, both on a boss and on a dummy.

 

Can we please drop the hyperboles?

 

Yes. Most of the defense of IO is highly hyperbolic, so perhaps I started from the wrong place.

 

If it'd be that easy than everyone and their dog would parse 5k+. And Arsenal is at the bottom of the barrel as usual so no wonder it doesn't compete with IO. But you got it almost right, there's only 2 boss that penalize IO and there Arsenal IS better.

 

Actually, on one of them (Underlurker), Arsenal isn't really better so much as more convenient. IO parses pretty much the same. Only one boss in the entire PvE endgame has IO parsing lower than Arsenal. Also, Arsenal isn't all that bad relative to the other disciplines. It's balanced pretty well for its role as a ranged burst spec with fairly high mobility and zero setup.

 

Regarding the 5ks, for players that are in the appropriate gear, actually yeah, 5k is an extremely common mark. There aren't many players in the gear necessary for that, but many are close (there are two commandos in Aisthesis that are just shy of 5k on the 1 mil, and neither of them are even in full 192s; I'm sure most guilds have a 5k or near-5k IO player by now).

 

I don't mean to spit on the players that are getting optimal results out of IO. It's a skilled spec, there's no question. You can't just roll your face over the keyboard and pop out a world tier parse. Not even close. I would even go so far as to say that it is one of the most skilled specs in the game. But it's not head-and-shoulders harder than everything else, and it's QoL in a raid setting is actually better than many other classes that parse far less.

 

But you conveniently ignored some of my point, I'd like to see your input on these:

 

  • IO's target swapping is remarkably good. As I said, most of your rotation works fine even without your DoTs on the target, and the part of your rotation that doesn't work (Mag Bolt) can be made to work with RNG or with another class in your raid that applies burns (Pub side has more options here than Imp side).
  • Most advanced classes actually run burst specs across the majority of the content (e.g. AP not Pyro), despite the lower sustained output. Those that run sustained specs (e.g. Lethality and Virulence) on more bosses usually have a fairly compelling argument to run the burst spec, and choose the sustained for non-DPS reasons. IO is unique in that it is hands-down the only option for almost everything.
  • IO's DoT spread is better than Lethality's (which can't even spread both DoTs) and arguably also better than Virulence's (due to its wider AoE). Also, both abilities that spread the DoTs are useful AoEs that would be worth hitting even outside of the DoT spread.
  • IO's sustained AoE damage even without the DoT spread walks all over Lethality's, AP's, and even Virulence's. Heck, the very fact that the DoT spread exists at all pushes their sustained AoE DPS above Arsenal's, since they have the exact same tools in addition to some extra. Comparing IO's AoE to Lightning is sort of unfair, both because Lightning is designed to be an AoE spec, and because Lightning's AoE is simply broken and badly needs a nerf.
  • I agree that a 1 mil parse is dumb. IO still rolls all over the other disciplines even on the 1.5 mil.

 

And I don't even know what people base it on that IO is heads and shoulders above everything else? Is there a dummy or ops dps leaderboard I missed?

 

No, but word gets around. There's a lot of "unofficial" chit-chat. I know what the various disciplines are parsing in the right hands and with the right gear.

 

I never understood why PVE always wants nerfs so badly, like it's painful for you to get outparsed? As long as every class and spec is viable what's the point?

 

I'm a raid leader. I want to select my raid composition based on the players and the various utilities that they bring, and I want to tune things to the fight based on how the fight mechanics interact with the composition. Having a single spec doing numbers that blow away everyone else is effectively forcing my hand, because now I have to bring that spec unless I want the group's DPS to suffer relative to where it could be. It causes me to choose a player and a discipline solely on the basis of one of the least important factors (DPS), and I don't like that.

 

Also, not a day goes by that I don't hear a story of someone getting evicted from their raid group and/or pressured into using a different spec, solely on the basis of the current game meta. PvE is just as affected by balance as PvP. It's affected in different ways, and by different elements of the balance picture, but it is no less important.

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The target swapping is a lot better than Virulence. You can actually do things to a target without your DoTs being up. The only thing you can't use is Mag Bolt, and even that you can use if you get lucky on your Plasma Cell procs.

So I just read up on the Virulance guide and I disagree, you can just start from scratch (dot up) with Virulance. You can't do that with IO because they have a predetermined place in a strict rotation (rotation, not priority sytem like most of the specs you compare IO with).

 

Actually, use the wrong ability at the wrong time (like it one of those convergences I mentioned) and you'll spend the full 90 second cycle trying to fix your energy and cooldown alignment (which you will ultimately do by delaying an ability, to the detriment of your DPS). I have parses which show this in action.

If what you are saying is true then it sure not a significant dps loss, or otherwise the spec would be unplayable. You might be fixing it for 90sec to get out the last 1% of the spec, but a mistake in IO can make or break your parse.

(Fun fact: on PTS from the parses I saw IO had higher standard deviation than Lightning which is considered one of the most RNG heavy spec in 3.0, iirc you said that specs with high SD are unreliable).

 

IO's forgiveness rotates around a 7.5 second ICD. If you mess up that ICD, you sacrifice something to get it back in alignment. Yes, that is highly annoying, but it's still fixable, and fixable relatively quickly.

15 actually, you can mess up StB too not just IPA. And before you say it doesn't matter what you use it for then you are wrong, becuase if you don't use it for PS you lose mobility and can easily be shut down by interrupts.

 

 

Actually, on one of them (Underlurker), Arsenal isn't really better so much as more convenient. IO parses pretty much the same. Only one boss in the entire PvE endgame has IO parsing lower than Arsenal. Also, Arsenal isn't all that bad relative to the other disciplines. It's balanced pretty well for its role as a ranged burst spec with fairly high mobility and zero setup.

Like I said, bottom of the barrel:

  1. Innovative Ordinance
  2. Hatred
  3. Annihilation
  4. Lethality
  5. Concealment
  6. Vengeance
  7. Pyro
  8. Advanced Prototype
  9. Deception
  10. Engineering
  11. Carnage
  12. Fury
  13. Rage
  14. Lightning
  15. Virulence
  16. Marksmanship
  17. Arsenal
  18. Madness

There are 10 new bosses, right? Only 2 of them has adds that require the whole team dpsing them and only 2 of them requires target swaping, but it's so infrequent that it barely matters. So how is it IO's fault that it's better than Arsenal on sustained fights?

  • IO's target swapping is remarkably good. As I said, most of your rotation works fine even without your DoTs on the target, and the part of your rotation that doesn't work (Mag Bolt) can be made to work with RNG or with another class in your raid that applies burns (Pub side has more options here than Imp side).
  • IO's DoT spread is better than Lethality's (which can't even spread both DoTs) and arguably also better than Virulence's (due to its wider AoE). Also, both abilities that spread the DoTs are useful AoEs that would be worth hitting even outside of the DoT spread.
  • IO's sustained AoE damage even without the DoT spread walks all over Lethality's, AP's, and even Virulence's. Heck, the very fact that the DoT spread exists at all pushes their sustained AoE DPS above Arsenal's, since they have the exact same tools in addition to some extra. Comparing IO's AoE to Lightning is sort of unfair, both because Lightning is designed to be an AoE spec, and because Lightning's AoE is simply broken and badly needs a nerf.

  • And I still disagree. You need burn to get refound on Mag Shot, or you lose heat you can't afford. And you need bleed to boost burns.
  • Lethality get's an AoE DoT by default so idk why you would mention that they can't spread both. Virualnce has it's spread on a rotational ability that costs what? 10 energy?
  • I don't think so. You need to maintain IPA procs or you get screwed by heat. DoT spread takes up 1 of the 2 blocks in every rotation cycle and generates a lot of heat. in that case the next block either have to be mostly rapid shots or you can't sustain it. Also I never compared IO to Lighting, idk where you get that from.

No, but word gets around. There's a lot of "unofficial" chit-chat. I know what the various disciplines are parsing in the right hands and with the right gear.

Without a big sample size I still don't see it as compelling proof. I'm not saying that with more parse Madness will magically parse IO's lvl, but the picture is still skewed. For the better or the worse in IO's case I don't know...

 

 

 

 

Ironically the fight which has the most target swaping and the most outside distruption to the rotation is not the Revannite Commanders or the Underlurker or whatever, but PVP. If you really are convinced that IO has it better than Virulance, Lightning and Lethality, then take all of them to PVP and see what happens (strictly from a rotation point of view).

 

I'm a raid leader. I want to select my raid composition based on the players and the various utilities that they bring, and I want to tune things to the fight based on how the fight mechanics interact with the composition. Having a single spec doing numbers that blow away everyone else is effectively forcing my hand, because now I have to bring that spec unless I want the group's DPS to suffer relative to where it could be. It causes me to choose a player and a discipline solely on the basis of one of the least important factors (DPS), and I don't like that.

Why? If your raid team has the necessary dps to down the content then why is it any importance to you that there is a spec out there with more DPS? (*looks at Dilih killing Dread Guards without fotm marauders*)

 

Also, not a day goes by that I don't hear a story of someone getting evicted from their raid group and/or pressured into using a different spec, solely on the basis of the current game meta. PvE is just as affected by balance as PvP. It's affected in different ways, and by different elements of the balance picture, but it is no less important.

I'm around in this game since it's launch, have been raiding in 6 different guild, atm in one of the biggest on TRE with like 6 raidgroup, but I never experienced it first hand. I know that doesn't make the issue non-existant, but I think whoever does that is a moron...

Edited by cs_zoltan
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Nerfing IO won't make you a better guardian though :rolleyes:

 

I'm certainly not afraid of anyone, and I'm at the limits of my class anyway, problem is nerfing the IO / AP is going to do justice on balancing ranged AND melee specs.

 

Otherwise, all of the less-than-top-spec players will have to hear "reroll to merc / commando."

 

As it is now, lots of gunslingers have given up / have been forced to give up their classes.

 

Oh, and I'm fairly sure they are also going to nerf the hell out of Forcequake / Force Storm, before anyone thinks of pointing to TK / lightning casters as an example.

 

IO is not the only problem on the board as it is. As it is OP now, we have visibly BAD specs on the field.

 

Balance Sage anyone? Or you know, frigging shadows / assassins ( if there are ANY left, that is.)

 

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, fix the OH damage affecting certain skills that it shouldn't, it's not fun for Rep side commandos when mercs have an unfair advantage over them like that.

 

 

I'm around in this game since it's launch, have been raiding in 6 different guild, atm in one of the biggest on TRE with like 6 raidgroup, but I never experienced it first hand. I know that doesn't make the issue non-existant, but I think whoever does that is a moron...

 

It doesn't happen in established raid grps OR to powerful players. It happens to everyone else. It's a long way up for anyone starting the game fresh, and when those poor bastards get to endgame, they face PUGs and less qualitative raid grps around, NOT the sort we are used to.

 

Empathy people, the top PvPers and top PvErs are just a small percentage in this game, the rest of people, which we look down on as 'casuals', 'noobs' and/or 'bad players' make up the %90 of playerbase.

 

 

If you were a relatively new player and tried to join a raid grp / guild, first thing they want is a parse, and since you are, hypotheticaly, a new player, not as good as top spec. Then they tell you, "Go Merc / commando" coz IO / Assault is a fast ticket to high dps with only 4 buttons, and gunnery / arsenal is even simpler than that with some less deeps.

 

Would you train for hours upon hours as a, say, sage or sentinel or scoundrel or slinger, just to be able to raid, or would you bow down to the peer pressure and reroll? For a new player and / or average player just looking for the people to raid with, choice is unfortunately always the latter.

Edited by Manweth
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They beat Revan first week of 3.0. Did they do so in Dread Master gear plus a few 192/198 pieces picked up along the way? If you have to stack a certain comp to beat the fight "undergeared" that's fine since I assume ToS HM is designed for 192/198 mix.

 

Or did Zorz manage to gear up far faster than intended, and still have to stack Mercs?

 

We did both Revan and Coratanni in mostly 192 gear with a few 186 and 198 pieces. We got somewhat close to full 192s from farming the hell out of story modes Week 1 in the first few nights using many alts and other guild members to help us. Unfortunately, pending any future updates from Bioware, stacking to beat it is so incredibly effective that it is still by far the easiest way to get through it, so while everyone in our guild is getting their 198 MHs, no one wants to go through the extreme hassle of non-cheese since we can just do it with our normal strategy. And the non-cheese alternative is hard enough that no one has managed it yet including our raid teams.

 

Note the cheese does not really help for floor 1 and 2, only floor 3, so you still have to get there first. One specific phase as noted by others.

 

As for the rest of the discussion, I love our mercs in Zorz but IO is a bit too strong. They would still be a valuable sustained DPS spec if they did a few hundred less, putting them near Pyro PT or Watchman Sent (which are both melee in some form anyway) Yes, there's no need to completely nerf it into the ground. Then you'd only want to run Arsenal. There's no need to overreact, but we shouldn't minimize the impact of the very strongest and weakest classes on our raid compositions. Yes, IO is more difficult than most specs in the sense that messing up your Speed to Burn with respect to your windows is more than a very slight DPS loss. However I agree with KBN that it's not out of this world difficulty either.

 

That being said, at least half of the reason to bring Mercs to fights is that they have reasonable survivability plus Hydraulics for several mechanics. The fact they're the top DPS is an extremely beneficial bonus, but not the only reason by any means.

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So I just read up on the Virulance guide and I disagree, you can just start from scratch (dot up) with Virulance. You can't do that with IO because they have a predetermined place in a strict rotation (rotation, not priority sytem like most of the specs you compare IO with).

 

What Yolo's guide doesn't really show is how the energy fluctuates within the rotation. Also, the DoT location for Virulence is exactly as strict as IO. With IO, the DoT location is timed to the 7.5 second Mag Bolt cooldown. With Virulence using the 2 cull rotation, it is timed to the 9 second Cull cooldown. Using Yolo's 3 cull rotation, the timing can be adjusted to be similar. Using Kwerty's 3 cull rotation (which was shown mathematically and practically to produce higher DPS in equivalent gear, albeit with slightly less flexibility) the DoTs are split across two separate spans, and neither DoT can be applied more than once every 24 seconds. In other words, Kwerty's 3 cull rotation has almost no target swapping capability at all without redotting at awkward points, which is part of why few people use it.

 

Anyway, you really can't "just start over" with Virulence. Furthermore, absolutely nothing you can do that is sustainable works without your DoTs on the target. Everything that IO does is sustainable and does full damage without DoTs up, with the exception of Mag Bolt. If you have to target swap and your DoTs aren't up, just continue your rotation. If you hit a Mag Bolt location and there is no burn on the target (e.g. from your cell proc), you either skip the Mag Bolt (an obvious DPS loss, but not as much of a DPS loss as the whopping 85% of all damage that Lethality drops without DoTs) or you delay it and swap it in for a Charged Bolts after you've applied your DoTs. Your DoTs have to be applied in a specific window, but you are free to put that window relative any Mag Bolt if you absolutely have to. It just delays Full Auto and Assault Plastique to do so.

 

In other words, IO's target swapping is better than almost any other DoT spec in the game. Basically, only Madness has better target swapping than IO as a DoT spec, and everything else is worse.

 

If what you are saying is true then it sure not a significant dps loss, or otherwise the spec would be unplayable. You might be fixing it for 90sec to get out the last 1% of the spec, but a mistake in IO can make or break your parse.

 

Most people just don't push their rotations to the point where these mistakes can happen. Most people playing Lethality right now just pathologically energy cap, and thus they sacrifice huge amounts of DPS as a matter of course and never have to worry about energy.

 

(Fun fact: on PTS from the parses I saw IO had higher standard deviation than Lightning which is considered one of the most RNG heavy spec in 3.0, iirc you said that specs with high SD are unreliable).

 

High SD specs are awful. IO's problem is the combination of its dependence on massive surge (highest in game) and the non-linear effects of a short dummy parse (the 1 mil). The high standard deviation comes from precisely the feature of the discipline that gives IO its overpowered nature. Removing the surge talent in the discipline goes an enormously long way toward bringing the DPS back into line, and it reduces the standard deviation an enormous amount.

 

15 actually, you can mess up StB too not just IPA. And before you say it doesn't matter what you use it for then you are wrong, becuase if you don't use it for PS you lose mobility and can easily be shut down by interrupts.

 

In PvE, using your instant proc on Serrated Bolt isn't the worst thing in the world. It's not as good as using it on Charged Bolts, but it's not going to kill you. It's certainly no worse than the rotational skew that other DoT specs suffer when target swapping.

There are 10 new bosses, right? Only 2 of them has adds that require the whole team dpsing them and only 2 of them requires target swaping, but it's so infrequent that it barely matters. So how is it IO's fault that it's better than Arsenal on sustained fights?

 

10 new bosses, of those bosses exactly four fall into a category of "not requiring frequent target swaps". And remember what I said: most other ACs in the game are running burst specs throughout the content, and when they don't run burst specs, they could without losing much. IO is the clear choice for almost every boss, even bosses that other ACs run burst specs with low setup, and it's the clear choice ONLY because of its DPS.

 

And I still disagree. You need burn to get refound on Mag Shot, or you lose heat you can't afford. And you need bleed to boost burns.

 

Target swapping results in a loss of DPS. This is true for almost every spec in the game (even Lightning). Remember that your cell can and does apply the burn. Thus, you actually have an RNG factor to your target swapping that can make the swap nearly penalty-free. Most specs that target swap have to just eat the penalty.

 

Lethality get's an AoE DoT by default so idk why you would mention that they can't spread both. Virualnce has it's spread on a rotational ability that costs what? 10 energy?

 

I think you would be surprised by how pathologically narrow the DoT spread radius is on Corrosive Grenade.

 

I don't think so. You need to maintain IPA procs or you get screwed by heat. DoT spread takes up 1 of the 2 blocks in every rotation cycle and generates a lot of heat. in that case the next block either have to be mostly rapid shots or you can't sustain it. Also I never compared IO to Lighting, idk where you get that from.

 

I just picked Lightning as an example of a spec that does better AoE DPS than IO.

 

IO's AoE rotation is identical to Arsenal's. You don't maintain IPA procs, and you don't DoT spread unless you're REALLY going AoE crazy.

 

Ironically the fight which has the most target swaping and the most outside distruption to the rotation is not the Revannite Commanders or the Underlurker or whatever, but PVP. If you really are convinced that IO has it better than Virulance, Lightning and Lethality, then take all of them to PVP and see what happens (strictly from a rotation point of view).

 

I can't speak to the PvP point at all. PvP has always been dominated by things other than sustained DPS numbers though.

 

Why? If your raid team has the necessary dps to down the content then why is it any importance to you that there is a spec out there with more DPS? (*looks at Dilih killing Dread Guards without fotm marauders*)

 

Does the raid team have the DPS necessary to down the content? It's progression, presumably, so you don't know. You're trying to build out every advantage that you can.

 

Class stacking is absolutely something that happens to a severe degree across 90% of the PvE population. Yes, the top echelon don't do it outside of extreme circumstances like Zorz's HM Revan kill. Most people do though. Heck, even guild pug groups in Aisthesis not run by officers (and sometimes even then) have been known to class stack and push people to FOTM swap. We try to discourage this as much as possible, but some raid leaders still do it. If a guild that has someone as loud as I am screaming about class parity 24/7 can still fall into class stacking from time to time, what do you think the state of the average fleet pug is going to be?

 

I'm around in this game since it's launch, have been raiding in 6 different guild, atm in one of the biggest on TRE with like 6 raidgroup, but I never experienced it first hand. I know that doesn't make the issue non-existant, but I think whoever does that is a moron...

 

We can agree on that last point. :-) Class stacking is focusing on the wrong thing. My point is simply that IO is so overpoweringly good in terms of sustained DPS that it's past the point of being able to ignore it.

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snip

 

I think we came to a mutual understanding of where each of us stand on the issue so I won't argue further (not like there's anything to argue about). I'm just gona quote this :) :

PS: Sure, nerf IO's damage, but not without QoL buffs.

 

Considering IO is not in a bright spot for PVP buchering it's dps just add salt to the wound.

Edited by cs_zoltan
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I'm a raid leader. I want to select my raid composition based on the players and the various utilities that they bring, and I want to tune things to the fight based on how the fight mechanics interact with the composition. Having a single spec doing numbers that blow away everyone else is effectively forcing my hand, because now I have to bring that spec unless I want the group's DPS to suffer relative to where it could be. It causes me to choose a player and a discipline solely on the basis of one of the least important factors (DPS), and I don't like that.

 

Also, not a day goes by that I don't hear a story of someone getting evicted from their raid group and/or pressured into using a different spec, solely on the basis of the current game meta. PvE is just as affected by balance as PvP. It's affected in different ways, and by different elements of the balance picture, but it is no less important.

 

Me, I'm more interested in the social things.

Not so much in the mechqanics since I'm rather a story player.

 

But here are a few social factors embedded in what KBN writes :

 

I want to select my raid composition based on the players and the various utilities that they bring,

 

Raids are about groups. Rather in PUGs, but also in guilds, it is so that people want to have fun, they want to see themselves that they are i]contributing[/i].

 

As I always say : "for a good boss there are not bad employeed. Only mis-placed ones." Because I firmly believe that everyone is as good in one thing as he or she is bad in another thing.

 

Just as an example : My personal frustration staminy is frighteningly low in MMO - yet I'm the most partient man people around me know when it comes to teaching people things. I more than once heard people say that they just cannot understand that I could remnain so patient with people when I teach them things.

 

I want to select my raid composition based on the players and the various utilities that they bring,

 

This also means that people tend to prefer classes which they are good at. And the reaid leader should be able to choose which places they can take in a raid group. So that everyoine has some fun and a sense of accomplishment.

 

Having a single spec doing numbers that blow away everyone else is effectively forcing my hand, because now I have to bring that spec unless I want the group's DPS to suffer relative to where it could be.

 

This is bad for the social factor - for the "social glue" within a group - because people are forced to play classes they are not good at or at least which they might not inherently feel familiar with (me, for example, I just cannot get fun out of mele classes, I never understood why).

 

It causes me to choose a player and a discipline solely on the basis of one of the least important factors (DPS), and I don't like that.

 

That, and that people are forced to play a class - like I wrote above - might be in touch with, might not feel inherently familar with.

 

Also, not a day goes by that I don't hear a story of someone getting evicted from their raid group and/or pressured into using a different spec, solely on the basis of the current game meta.

 

And this is eroding BOTH the social glue AND the fun aspect of the game !

 

Bioware might be good at coding, but I have noticed in the last months that they are outright BAD at the social aspect.

 

They just don't evaluate things regarding the "social meta". They merely look at their data, and at the mechanbics. Everybody does so.

 

 

Off the top of my head, DPS specs sorted in terms of their dummy DPS on the 1.5 mil sit roughly in this order:

 

  1. Innovative Ordinance
  2. Hatred
  3. Annihilation
  4. Lethality
  5. Concealment
  6. Vengeance
  7. Pyro
  8. Advanced Prototype
  9. Deception
  10. Engineering
  11. Carnage
  12. Fury
  13. Rage
  14. Lightning
  15. Virulence
  16. Marksmanship
  17. Arsenal
  18. Madness

 

More or less.

 

And what would that be on Republic side ?

 

Sorry, but I just cannot keep *all* of these spect names in my memory ...

 

Otherwise, all of the less-than-top-spec players will have to hear "reroll to merc / commando."

 

As it is now, lots of gunslingers have given up / have been forced to give up their classes. .

 

Depends on whether you do PvP or PvE.

Because in PvP, there is LOTS of whining that Commandos are just "crap" in PvP ...

Gunslingers as well, by the way ...

 

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, fix the OH damage affecting certain skills that it shouldn't, it's not fun for Rep side commandos when mercs have an unfair advantage over them like that.

 

Bioware has always been an Imp-centry company - they most likel don't even know that this bug even exists ... Like there have been not few bigs on REpiublic side only ...

 

Is there at least a report in the bug forum ?

 

 

It doesn't happen in established raid grps OR to powerful players. It happens to everyone else. It's a long way up for anyone starting the game fresh, and when those poor bastards get to endgame, they face PUGs and less qualitative raid grps around, NOT the sort we are used to.

 

Empathy people, the top PvPers and top PvErs are just a small percentage in this game, the rest of people, which we look down on as 'casuals', 'noobs' and/or 'bad players' make up the %90 of playerbase.

 

Which is another social factor , and one that makes me more and more think that

 

the more powerful = the less socially compatible

 

plus there is LOTS of whining in the PvP forums about what they simply call "the BADS". And this whining is performed by the socially most incompatible players there, I often believe.

 

Would you train for hours upon hours as a, say, sage or sentinel or scoundrel or slinger, just to be able to raid, or would you bow down to the peer pressure and reroll? For a new player and / or average player just looking for the people to raid with, choice is unfortunately always the latter.

 

Nobody cares. All they care about are NUMBERS. Lifeless numbers.

Edited by AlrikFassbauer
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If you were a relatively new player and tried to join a raid grp / guild, first thing they want is a parse, and since you are, hypotheticaly, a new player, not as good as top spec. Then they tell you, "Go Merc / commando" coz IO / Assault is a fast ticket to high dps with only 4 buttons, and gunnery / arsenal is even simpler than that with some less deeps.

 

Would you train for hours upon hours as a, say, sage or sentinel or scoundrel or slinger, just to be able to raid, or would you bow down to the peer pressure and reroll? For a new player and / or average player just looking for the people to raid with, choice is unfortunately always the latter.

 

I think you are definitely not giving the Mercs/Commandos pushing out the high numbers enough credit. As Zoltan said the spec if not ridiculously hard, but very unforgiving. I suggest you do some research into the spec you're slandering here before you make such assumptions.

 

Second of all, when you apply for a guild in the scenario you describe, you (as a player) will inevitably be compared to a player who is already member of said guild playing the same class as you. If the existing IO/Assault player is pulling 5k's and the new guy is not even close, no raidleader will be impressed in the slightest.

 

Long story short; it'll take you roughly as much time to match the resident Merc/Commando as a new Merc/Commando as you would with any other class. Only for higher numbers maybe, but the nerfbat swings different ways every patch.

 

Remember when the IO/Assault players with the RNG in their tree couldnt keep up (or barely) with a skilled Balance/Madness Sage/Sorc? I do. Mercs/Commandos are highest on the parses for now. The difference is not even that high compared to certain other scenarios (pre-3.0 Dirty Fighting/Virulence anyone? Competitive, yes. Nowhere near IO/Assault and Balance at the time in terms of sustained at the time).

 

Give it time, I'll get nerfed at some point and you can /lol at me for trying to keep up with you. Give or take a few months and I might do the same to you.

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Second of all, when you apply for a guild in the scenario you describe, you (as a player) will inevitably be compared to a player who is already member of said guild playing the same class as you. If the existing IO/Assault player is pulling 5k's and the new guy is not even close, no raidleader will be impressed in the slightest.

 

Which reminds me of something : An article, discussed here : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=777580

 

 

Long story short; it'll take you roughly as much time to match the resident Merc/Commando as a new Merc/Commando as you would with any other class. Only for higher numbers maybe, but the nerfbat swings different ways every patch.

 

Remember when the IO/Assault players with the RNG in their tree couldnt keep up (or barely) with a skilled Balance/Madness Sage/Sorc? I do. Mercs/Commandos are highest on the parses for now. The difference is not even that high compared to certain other scenarios (pre-3.0 Dirty Fighting/Virulence anyone? Competitive, yes. Nowhere near IO/Assault and Balance at the time in terms of sustained at the time).

 

Give it time, I'll get nerfed at some point and you can /lol at me for trying to keep up with you. Give or take a few months and I might do the same to you.

 

Source : http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/11/26/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-3/

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*snip*.

 

My raidleader everyone :D

 

He has good points, as the unforgiving nature of the spec.

 

But even he doesn't deny one class or spec shouldn't have the

 

1) Best mobility

 

2) Best Survivability

 

3) Best DPS

 

at the same time.

 

I had read the massively's article on endgame raiding, and I agreed with many of the stated points.

 

One thing that article doesn't cover or ignores is the MMO market is incredibly.... stale. It won't change........

 

 

Without a dramatic increase and // or change in hardware(s) we use.

 

Hence, the hopeful wait on new VR systems like Oculus rift. If done well, such things can alter the landscape radically.

 

But for now, we have raiding. And we will have it for the near future. LotRO stopped making raids, and for a game of that age, it's a good decision. But it's far too early for SWTOR to take that route.

 

We have enough emphasis on Cartel market as it is.

Edited by Manweth
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