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Any plans to go back and improve deception for pvp?


Akulakha

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Ok so I luv my sith assassin and I luv deception but I hate hatred. I honestly never cared for dots even when I was forced to be a dot user on my warlock back on wow once upon a time. I feel very disappointed with the few amount of tweeks given to this spec and the fact that it is very sorely lacking in pvp. R there any plans to go back and improve upon this spec a little bit? Has anyone heard anything?
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Ok so I luv my sith assassin and I luv deception but I hate hatred.

Hating Hatred, touche.

 

I honestly never cared for dots even when I was forced to be a dot user on my warlock back on wow once upon a time.

I never enjoyed tab dotting as Arms Warrior but that's how it is now on WoW and when you get used to it, it's fun. Styles change.

 

I feel very disappointed with the few amount of tweeks given to this spec and the fact that it is very sorely lacking in pvp. R there any plans to go back and improve upon this spec a little bit? Has anyone heard anything?

Why is it 'sorely' lacking? What needs to be 'improved', exactly? It does pale in comparison to some of the more predominant specs, sure, but why should it be improved?

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Why is it 'sorely' lacking? What needs to be 'improved', exactly? It does pale in comparison to some of the more predominant specs, sure, but why should it be improved?

 

Not a raider myself but if deception is inferior in every aspect of the game, then the question becomes not "why should it be improved" but "what is the point"?

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Not a raider myself but if deception is inferior in every aspect of the game, then the question becomes not "why should it be improved" but "what is the point"?

 

Um, the point is to make it viable so people can choose it over hatred if they like the playstyle better. Or at least make it better than hatred in pvp, so there are aspects of the game where you can use it. Right now, hatred is better in solo PvE, aoe PvE, group PvP AND 1v1 PvP, it's ridiculous.

 

Or the solution could be to nerf hatred to deception's level, but that would only work if the other OP classes got nerfed too (I'm looking at you PTs - sorcs).

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For me, deception is fine. Hatred is just overperforming as are other classes disciplines.

 

Probably give that assassinate proc to deception, but I see those people whining in 1:1 vs a deception sin when doing that.

 

Imagine, maul, assassinate (auto crit), recklessness, discharge, shock, stun, maul, assassinate if necessary. I think this spec could kill almost in 4 GCDs. People mostly cry about losing in 1:1 or not having a chance when stealthers open on them. They never see the whole picture. Nerf!

 

In short: deception is quite fine, other classes are just too OP (PT shoulder cannons, Juggs enraged defense, hatred sin dot spreading, sorc either bubble stun or heal to full force barrier)

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Not a raider myself but if deception is inferior in every aspect of the game, then the question becomes not "why should it be improved" but "what is the point"?

Answered below.

 

Or the solution could be to nerf hatred to deception's level, but that would only work if the other OP classes got nerfed too (I'm looking at you PTs - sorcs).

Hatred is powerful but it's too early to be masquerading around for nerfs, especially when other classes are performing at ridiculous levels themselves. The solution to make another spec better is never to nerf another. That logic only hurts what should be accomplished. Instead, we should evaluate why Deception is 'underperforming' and what practical steps can be taken to make it better. Of course there are other variables but start from point A.

 

In short: deception is quite fine, other classes are just too OP (PT shoulder cannons, Juggs enraged defense, hatred sin dot spreading, sorc either bubble stun or heal to full force barrier)

Hatred Sin DoT spread is accomplishing exactly what BW intended the spec to perform. At last, after nearly 4 years, the spec is doing what it's supposed to do. Give it its run. What does need to happen is beyond Hatred. What needs to happen is a modification to the Bolster formula or a flat damage nerf across the board from SCALING.

 

The complaint isn't one spec, or class, it's many. When that happens, it's a problem across the board.

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For me, deception is fine. Hatred is just overperforming as are other classes disciplines.

 

Probably give that assassinate proc to deception, but I see those people whining in 1:1 vs a deception sin when doing that.

 

Imagine, maul, assassinate (auto crit), recklessness, discharge, shock, stun, maul, assassinate if necessary. I think this spec could kill almost in 4 GCDs. People mostly cry about losing in 1:1 or not having a chance when stealthers open on them. They never see the whole picture. Nerf!

 

In short: deception is quite fine, other classes are just too OP (PT shoulder cannons, Juggs enraged defense, hatred sin dot spreading, sorc either bubble stun or heal to full force barrier)

 

No, please don't give an Assassinate proc to Deception, it really doesn't need it, and Hatred really does need it. Hatred would lose what little bit of dynamic play it has and Deception would become unworkable in the PvE execute phase instead of having, in my opinion, the best, most satisfying execute phase rotation in the game.

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Um, the point is to make it viable so people can choose it over hatred if they like the playstyle better. Or at least make it better than hatred in pvp, so there are aspects of the game where you can use it. Right now, hatred is better in solo PvE, aoe PvE, group PvP AND 1v1 PvP, it's ridiculous.

 

You clearly missed my point... I was saying that if Deception is inferior in both aspects of the game then it is needs to be improved, otherwise it is a worthless talent tree. Ideally the two DPS trees would be balanced and you would select the one you enjoy the most or the one that is best suited for the situation. As you said, this might be fixed by nerfing Hatred but then they would also have to nerf about half the builds out there...

 

Honestly, we have almost never had balanced builds and historically one has always been vastly superior to the reset. Now it's the "DOT" spec's time in the sun. Tank, hybrid and deception have all had their day...

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What would be nice is to have low slash auto proc like it was supposed to do in the prior infil. tree. I say supposed to do, because it worked about 3/4 of the time.

 

The proc rate was shared with the spike one.. if you spiked before it obv wouldnt work on LS within the next 9 sec :p

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What deception needs is it's pre 3.0 formulas back.

The same proportional burst (upped only to even current health levels) and just that.

No fancy new procs, no new mechanics.. just more burst.

 

And hatred needs a massive nerf so it isn't the only halfway decent choice without shooting your own kneecaps anymore.

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What deception needs is it's pre 3.0 formulas back.

The same proportional burst (upped only to even current health levels) and just that.

No fancy new procs, no new mechanics.. just more burst.

 

And hatred needs a massive nerf so it isn't the only halfway decent choice without shooting your own kneecaps anymore.

 

It doesn't even need that big a nerf. Maybe just tone down the self heals a little (half heal on Leeching Strike) and spread a weaker version of its dots. That, and fix the double Raze issue.

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I wouldn't like to see leeching strike's heal nerfed.. I really don't think the heal is OP and it's nice for PvP.

I do however think leeching strike is OP for the totalpackage it offers.

 

Nerfing the damage would be good for PvP, but not for PvE. The opposite is true for PvE however..

 

Sigh :/

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It doesn't even need that big a nerf. Maybe just tone down the self heals a little (half heal on Leeching Strike) and spread a weaker version of its dots. That, and fix the double Raze issue.

 

Or just removing Sever Force/Creeping Terror from the spreading mechanism. That alone would tune down both AoE output and self-healing significantly.

(Mental "guesstimation" says AoE damage down by ~30%, Self-healing down by ~20%)

 

A weaker version of DoTs actually defeats the purposes this mechanism has : ease switching.

At the moment it allows to not even care about reapplying DoTs.

 

Having weaker version would force to reapply them both right from the beginning after changing targets. (Like Lethality Snipers would not let Lingering poisons run)

At this point you could make so Force in Balance/Death Field applies a DoT on his own, of similar amplitude, without using a spreading mechanism that it would be very similar.

 

By excluding Sever Force/Creeping Terror, you have a middle ground. You only apply one DoT after switching. That one becomes unsynch-ed, but squeezing it somewhere between fillers is possible. Here the spreading mechanism actually achieves something.

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I wouldn't like to see leeching strike's heal nerfed.. I really don't think the heal is OP and it's nice for PvP.

I do however think leeching strike is OP for the totalpackage it offers.

 

Nerfing the damage would be good for PvP, but not for PvE. The opposite is true for PvE however..

 

Sigh :/

It doesn't need any nerfs until they fix the ship part bolster problem. Then we can view values without a skewed scope.

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Or just removing Sever Force/Creeping Terror from the spreading mechanism. That alone would tune down both AoE output and self-healing significantly.

(Mental "guesstimation" says AoE damage down by ~30%, Self-healing down by ~20%)

 

A weaker version of DoTs actually defeats the purposes this mechanism has : ease switching.

At the moment it allows to not even care about reapplying DoTs.

 

Having weaker version would force to reapply them both right from the beginning after changing targets. (Like Lethality Snipers would not let Lingering poisons run)

At this point you could make so Force in Balance/Death Field applies a DoT on his own, of similar amplitude, without using a spreading mechanism that it would be very similar.

 

By excluding Sever Force/Creeping Terror, you have a middle ground. You only apply one DoT after switching. That one becomes unsynch-ed, but squeezing it somewhere between fillers is possible. Here the spreading mechanism actually achieves something.

 

Who says that the weakened dots couldn't activate procs?

 

The fact that the operative ones might not doesn't mean ours shouldn't either.

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Who says that the weakened dots couldn't activate procs?

 

The fact that the operative ones might not doesn't mean ours shouldn't either.

Sure.

But letting them run is a DPS loss.

 

I think you can see why, in PvE especially, one may be willing to reapply DoTs instead of using the weaker one.

 

That aside, what I wanted to point that removing Sever Force/Creeping Terror from that mechanism would roughly have the same effect than putting some "half" versions, effectively cutting down the AoE and self-healing capacities by a significant amount...

While being more friendly with switching.

 

You can go the "whatever" route and rely on Breach/Discharge only, just like with weak version of DoTs, or go the "full power" route by applying one DoT unlike with weaker DoTs where you'd apply two.

 

Same results for the most part, less after-effects. Just a way to nerf but more... ...elegantly.

Edited by Altheran
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Spending 3 globals on applying dots before resuming your "rotation" is more of a dps loss than just using weaker dots for a couple of seconds.

 

Two globals. Just Force Breach/Discharge and Sever Force/Creeping Terror.

 

You're actually right it is ends better keeping the weak ones... Though, when they're "fresh" it tends to become a draw, the loss over the time evens the immediate gain.

 

The point remains that either putting half versions of DoTs or excluding Sever Force/Creeping Terror would have similar results about what could be problematic in PvP...

...And that one is more friendly with single target switching. Though not as friendly as a non-DoT spec anymore.

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I'd prefer A nerfed spread mechanic. Instead we can spread dots up to 8 players..just up to X players.

 

where X is << 8.

 

(but FIB/DF still will deal up to 8 players)

 

Also reduce the CC immunity up time while in deflection (without touching its DCD effect duration, just the cc immunity effect) to like half the time, idk.

 

This would be a start point.

 

IMHO

Edited by IInox
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