lets talk Socerer's! Seriously, no hat just realy come on now?

[DarthOvertone]

bubble removal isn't enough they need to be nerfed to the ground. It is absolutely retarded the amount of goodies sorces have to stay alive, even dps sorcs, why the hell is an AOE in a single target rotation? let that sentence sink in

 

The AOE factor isn't a Sorc issue...it's a BW Dev 3.0 combat gameplay implementation. Don't hate the class because the derping Devs decided to make 3.0 the age of uncleansable DoTs and AoEs. Sorcs/Sins clearly benefit most from the decision, but that has nothing to inherently do with the classes themselves. That's just BW being the droolers they are when it comes to PvP.

 

And other people in this thread talking about Sorcs and their survivability make me laugh. I honestly wonder if you QQers have played any Ranked at all. Even with all of the tools that they possess, Sorcs are still relatively easy to take down because their passives are so weak.

 

I do agree that some of the self-healing options are a bit much, for both Sins and Sorcs, but aside from that, Sorc/Sages are in a pretty good place. They are formidable now and lethal in the hands of a good player. If BW does anything, they need to buff the weaker ACs in the game, not nerf Sorcs.

Edited December 29, 2014 by DarthOvertone

[Saikochoro]

When I play ranked the last ones left standing is almost always either a sorc or a jug. Just saying. Probably has nothing to do with both having a H2F. Sarcasm aside: I'm sure both are legitimately good players as well. Edited December 29, 2014 by Saikochoro

[TezMoney]

I say let em keep bubble and bastion, and just nerf dps off heals. Sorc healers are fine, people just aren't used to them not being a complete joke in 4's.

 

When I play ranked the last ones left standing is almost always either a sorc or a jug. Just saying. Probably has nothing to do with both having a H2F. Sarcasm aside: I'm sure both are legitimately good players as well.

 

I'm pretty sure that has to do with the first group of focused targets are interchangeable based on team comps & player skill.

DPS: (merc, sniper) then (op, mara, PT, sorc) then (sin, jug)

 

Now in those matches where there was a sorc at the end, was he the only sorc or the strongest dps on the team? I'm guessing no on both counts.

Edited December 29, 2014 by TezMoney

[mmmbuddah]

The AOE factor isn't a Sorc issue...it's a BW Dev 3.0 combat gameplay implementation. Don't hate the class because the derping Devs decided to make 3.0 the age of uncleansable DoTs and AoEs. Sorcs/Sins clearly benefit most from the decision, but that has nothing to inherently do with the classes themselves. That's just BW being the droolers they are when it comes to PvP.

 

And other people in this thread talking about Sorcs and their survivability make me laugh. I honestly wonder if you QQers have played any Ranked at all. Even with all of the tools that they possess, Sorcs are still relatively easy to take down because their passives are so weak.

 

I do agree that some of the self-healing options are a bit much, for both Sins and Sorcs, but aside from that, Sorc/Sages are in a pretty good place. They are formidable now and lethal in the hands of a good player. If BW does anything, they need to buff the weaker ACs in the game, not nerf Sorcs.

Sorcerers had uncleansible dots BEFORE 3.0, now other classes' dots are just on par with theirs.....mostly....they are still cleansable, just not as often.

[Saikochoro]

Oh and as to the debate on whether to buff mercs and snipers or nerf sorcs. The answer should be obvious. The game is already a pain sometimes with all the sorcs. Can you imagine what it would be like if mercs and snipers had all the same tools? Nobody would play melee anymore. It's like the argument of op healers and Merc/sorc healers. Nerf ops or buff the others. If all healers were buffed to the ops level of ridiculousness then it would have been....well ridiculous. I don't want sorcs nerfed to the ground, but they definitely need toned down. I think mercs need a bit of a survivability buff. Most of the snipers I've seen have done better than mercs. Not sure what to do for them. I'm fine with classes having an anti focus button. But I'm not fine with a class having an anti focus button that also heals them to full, makes them invincible for the duration, provides a massive damage absorption bubble afterwards, and gives interrupt immunity. Can you really not see why mercs and sniper are jealous? Sniper get evasion, which is nice, but still allows 25% yellow damage to come through and only lasts a few seconds. The can still be stunned in it if they aren't in entrench. Mercs have.... Kolto overload and 25% damage reduction. That is totally on par with barrier

 

Fix mercs: give them anti focus button that isn't a god mode button. Have something like energy shield stacks more damage reduction as more people are attacking them. They can still be stunned. They aren't healed to full. They can still be killed during energy shield, but it would be much harder and might as well stun them and focus someone else for a few seconds.

 

Sniper: don't know. Someone else provide a suggestion.

 

Sorc: get rid of bastion entirely and all passive benefits of bastion. Leave barrier as it was originally instituted. Pure anti focus button and nothing more. The team should be there to peel them off sorc. Also force lightning should not have a snare. You already of other slows. And why DPS sorcs get a dark heal when mercs and ops don't get anything comparable is beyond me. They get two instant heals and a spammable casted one. Merc have one instant with cooldown. One casted with cooldown, and one instant that doesn't heal for much per global. Ops have 1 instant hot. One casted heal with cooldown and costs a TA. DEFINITELY in favor of sorcs.

[Saikochoro]

I say let em keep bubble and bastion, and just nerf dps off heals. Sorc healers are fine, people just aren't used to them not being a complete joke in 4's.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that has to do with the first group of focused targets are interchangeable based on team comps & player skill.

DPS: (merc, sniper) then (op, mara, PT, sorc) then (sin, jug)

 

Now in those matches where there was a sorc at the end, was he the only sorc or the strongest dps on the team? I'm guessing no on both counts.

 

Actually most of the time there is more than one sorc. Most of the time the last sorc standing/jugg standing did number 1 or number 2 damage. They aren't focused first for a reason. This goes for whether or not they are on my team.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Saikochoro

[Galothor]

Everything is relative. And relative to other ranged dps classes Sorc is stupidly better. They just have a much better toolset compared to Merc and Sniper.

 

Here are some expamples...

 

DPS sorcs have spammable heals - Dps mercs and snipers do not -> mers can snipers can burst much harder. Snipers can hit sorcs for 30k within a little bit more than 1 gcd, mercs have similar crit numbers

 

DPS sorcs have force barrier (heal to full) - DPS Mercs and snipers have nothing in the league of this -> snipers cannot be charged at, got plenty of cc immunity,

 

DPS Sorcs have force lightning (no cooldown amazing damage) - DPS Mercs have Death from Above (15 sec cooldown and crap damage)

 

DPS Sorcs have knockback WITH root - Mercs and Snipers have just a knockback -> You got no clue, sniper knockback roots automatically, sorcs have to spend 1 utility point for that. In addition both merc and sniper knockbacks are 360° and stronger

 

DPS Sorcs have force bubble - Mercs have nothing and snipers have a much worse damage shield -> no other class takes more damage than a sorc. All the crit records have been made on sorcs. Snipers got plenty of time to cc and deal damage without having a "Force Barrier" thanks to their immunity to leaps, cc, interupt. And when the enemy players finally reach the sniper he still lasts longer than a sorc (without the use of Force Barrier).

 

Healing sorcs have the best resource management compared to Mercs, where it is alot easier to run to 100 heat or run out of ammo.

 

I do realize that mercs have electro net, sorcs have force slow...the one area where mercs have an advantage. Mercs get adrenaline rush...which is a joke and sorcs just barrier and heal to full, followed by interrupt immunity.

-> Your Electro Net basically nulifies the Force Barrier. And when the Sorc, despite your huge burst, manages to use the stunbreaker and subsequently the Force Barrier, you can just stun the sorc when he/she leaves the barrier.

 

It's obvious to see why the majority of players prefer sorcs to these other ranged classes. -> Sorcs will always be prefered over Mercs, because this is a Star Wars setting and Sorcs throw lightning!

 

Why do you only compare sorcs to your ranged class(es)? Why don't you talk about the balance between Mercs and Sins. Or PT and Sniper? Any decent Sin, Jugg, PT, Operative will kill the Sorc. Somehow that contradicts the premise that this class is OP. And in a 1on1 even Mercs and Snipers got good chances of winning that duel. The only one currently really screwed when it comes to Sorcs is the Mara. But Maras are also screwed when it comes to mercs and snipers; so that is no proof for the alledged OPness of sorcs either.

 

I agree that mercs could need some love - while keeping their big burst / dps potential in mind. But snipers are fine as far as I am concerned. They are immune against anything but damage and for that their defensive cooldowns against damage are sufficient.

 

Added the comments to "examples".

Edited December 29, 2014 by Galothor

[TezMoney]

Actually most of the time there is more than one sorc. Most of the time the last sorc standing/jugg standing did number 1 or number 2 damage. They aren't focused first for a reason. This goes for whether or not they are on my team.

 

But their number 1 & 2 in damage cuz they got to free cast. They aren't focused first because there are classes that can be killed quicker, but so what? This will always be true for all but 1 or 2 classes. My point is if there is more than 1 sorc on the team most likely one of them will be targeted first, unless there is a sniper or merc on their team, and if the opposing team is smart they'll peak the stronger of the two, unless the weaker is flat out bad.

Edited December 29, 2014 by TezMoney

[mmmbuddah]

Oh and as to the debate on whether to buff mercs and snipers or nerf sorcs. The answer should be obvious. The game is already a pain sometimes with all the sorcs. Can you imagine what it would be like if mercs and snipers had all the same tools? Nobody would play melee anymore. It's like the argument of op healers and Merc/sorc healers. Nerf ops or buff the others. If all healers were buffed to the ops level of ridiculousness then it would have been....well ridiculous. I don't want sorcs nerfed to the ground, but they definitely need toned down. I think mercs need a bit of a survivability buff. Most of the snipers I've seen have done better than mercs. Not sure what to do for them. I'm fine with classes having an anti focus button. But I'm not fine with a class having an anti focus button that also heals them to full, makes them invincible for the duration, provides a massive damage absorption bubble afterwards, and gives interrupt immunity. Can you really not see why mercs and sniper are jealous? Sniper get evasion, which is nice, but still allows 25% yellow damage to come through and only lasts a few seconds. The can still be stunned in it if they aren't in entrench. Mercs have.... Kolto overload and 25% damage reduction. That is totally on par with barrier

 

Fix mercs: give them anti focus button that isn't a god mode button. Have something like energy shield stacks more damage reduction as more people are attacking them. They can still be stunned. They aren't healed to full. They can still be killed during energy shield, but it would be much harder and might as well stun them and focus someone else for a few seconds.

 

Sniper: don't know. Someone else provide a suggestion.

 

Sorc: get rid of bastion entirely and all passive benefits of bastion. Leave barrier as it was originally instituted. Pure anti focus button and nothing more. The team should be there to peel them off sorc. Also force lightning should not have a snare. You already of other slows. And why DPS sorcs get a dark heal when mercs and ops don't get anything comparable is beyond me. They get two instant heals and a spammable casted one. Merc have one instant with cooldown. One casted with cooldown, and one instant that doesn't heal for much per global. Ops have 1 instant hot. One casted heal with cooldown and costs a TA. DEFINITELY in favor of sorcs.

Its already a sorcerer / sage fest....

[Floplag]

Added the comments to "examples".

 

youve so clearly never played a merc in pvp its just... well its obvious.

 

the burst argument is debatable pending your spec in your sorc, but undispellable dots and a bubble to watch as we die offset that anyway so... meh.

 

you compared a spammable AOE to one that isnt... apples/oranges

 

youre knockback point is so wrong.. unless the opponent is stupid and burns his closer to begin the fight it doesnt even save us a GCD

 

i notice most of your defensive comparisons are to snipers... not mercs, as it should be since we dont have any, lol

 

you foget how your bubble can stun, how you have slows... so many things... and as for your point on people wanting lighting, you should perhaps consider than one of the most popular characters in the lore in a BH...

[HanSollo]

The AOE factor isn't a Sorc issue...it's a BW Dev 3.0 combat gameplay implementation. Don't hate the class because the derping Devs decided to make 3.0 the age of uncleansable DoTs and AoEs. Sorcs/Sins clearly benefit most from the decision, but that has nothing to inherently do with the classes themselves. That's just BW being the droolers they are when it comes to PvP.

 

And other people in this thread talking about Sorcs and their survivability make me laugh. I honestly wonder if you QQers have played any Ranked at all. Even with all of the tools that they possess, Sorcs are still relatively easy to take down because their passives are so weak.

 

I do agree that some of the self-healing options are a bit much, for both Sins and Sorcs, but aside from that, Sorc/Sages are in a pretty good place. They are formidable now and lethal in the hands of a good player. If BW does anything, they need to buff the weaker ACs in the game, not nerf Sorcs.

 

I'm just going to leave this here. Pay particular attention to the class with the highest scores, and please remember that this is pre 3.0.

 

http://www.swtor.com/leaderboards

[BadHoneyBadger]

Why do sorc fanboys keep defending bubble saying "it's a self-CC"?

It's NOT a self-CC. You can stop it any time you want, you are completely invulnerable while it's up...

That's not a CC or a stun.

I agree coming from a pvp server where we play matches where one of 2 things happed and is really annoying.

1) Pub team is nothing but Sage and Op healers like the one I just played. You can not kill ball carrier because well they have 5 healers on them, all have bubble stun that raises no resolve, knockback, and their channeled shield.

2) Same scenario but they are all DPS, you use your gap closer, they knock you off, and resume DPS. If you manage to get back to one of them without dying then you get bubble stunned, normal stunned, by that time bubble stun is ready again, then they knock you off again. Remind you this is just one sorc/sage and usually the pub side has a whole team of them.

Your may say "your team needs to learn to focus target", my response is you can focus 5-6 sages that all have these capabilities and still win. By the time you kill 2 the gate is open for them to come right back out.

[Lattervane]

Added the comments to "examples".

 

You countered my first point of their ability to heal with their ability to do big hits. I wasn't talking about big hits... I was talking about how sorcs can spam heal and neither snipers nor mercs can.

 

I compare sorcs to mercs and snipers because they are all ranged classes. Imo it doesn't make sense to compare ranged with melee because melee and ranged both need different toolsets to support that specific play style. What benefits a ranged class may not benefit a melee.

 

As far as ranged classes go.. Sorcs are easily the best. Better abilities, healing, mobility, healing, resource... They are just better

[Emperor_Troll]

I felt you deserved a reply. Unfortunately I will not be setting up a twitch account or YouTube account. I don't care to record my matches nor will I. Take it as you will. In the past I have seen demands for screen shots and video proof. The times when "proof" was actually given it was picked apart and excuses were made to discard the proof. For example, a couple days ago in the operative forums someone posted screenshots "proving" that concealment ops are fine DPS. Many operatives do not feel they are, but he stated he can pull 2k DPS. They demanded proof. He posted it. The next post came up with excuses as to why that proof doesn't count. You see what I'm getting at? NOTHING I post will convince you of my opinion. And that's totally cool. You are entitled to think I'm a whining scrub that sucks at the game. I'm entitled to think you are blindly devoted to your class. The food for some healthy argument...*cough*...I mean discussion. Let's agree to disagree.

 

stop making excuses. we all know screen shots and edited videos are meaningless because they do not show the whole picture, and that's not what I'm asking for from anyone here.

 

players are overdramatizing sages and sorcerers and claiming they are opcheesemodefacerolleasyunkillablegods who can singlehandedly out heal any attack, have mega burst compared, can cc opponents to death and live in their untouchable bubbles while casually laying waste to every other class or team of non-sage/sorcerer players, so I want someone to step up and provide the proper form of factual evidence. if they (or you) want something nerfed, then make those recorded steams and unedited videos to present to the devs and show that these classes are truly the indestructible walking death stars worthy of the nerf hammer so players can stop popping anxiety pills whenever they see a sage or sorcerer in warzones.

 

edit- also, I'm not blindly devoted to this class. I played at launch for a while and leveled a sorcerer first and have zero interest in making another class because the combat (and a bunch of other things like engine, lag, responsiveness, movement...) in this game is absolutely terrible. I recently subbed for 2 months because I was bored, nothing more, and I have come back to the same whines about these subpar performing classes that read 2 years ago.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Emperor_Troll

[Lattervane]

stop making excuses. we all know screen shots and edited videos are meaningless because they do not show the whole picture, and that's not what I'm asking for from anyone here.

 

players are overdramatizing sages and sorcerers and claiming they are opcheesemodefacerolleasyunkillablegods who can singlehandedly out heal any attack, have mega burst compared, can cc opponents to death and live in their untouchable bubbles while casually laying waste to every other class or team of non-sage/sorcerer players, so I want someone to step up and provide the proper form of factual evidence. if they (or you) want something nerfed, then make those recorded steams and unedited videos to present to the devs and show that these classes are truly the indestructible walking death stars worthy of the nerf hammer so players can stop popping anxiety pills whenever they see a sage or sorcerer in warzones.

 

I think the only one who is over dramatizing is you. Nobody is saying sorcs are unkillable Gods. People are stating compared to other classes, there are certain aspects of them that are not balanced with the other classes...specifically ranged classes.

 

Sorcs have no weaknesses. Nobody needs to provide a screenshot or video because we all see it In warzones and we can just name the abilities they have...which are not balanced with other classes abilities

[Saikochoro]

Man I was being civil with you. The only proof you need is to queue up. I told you why I won't provide a video. People like you will always make excuses as to why it doesn't count. Nothing I post will make you change your opinion. If you think sorcs are subpar you obviously have not played sorc in the last few months. But I'm done arguing with you.

[Savej]

Juggs only stand out in solo ranked which is a meaningless queue. Its only good for farming ranked comms.

 

Yes but sorcs stand out more in solo ranked (season 3 anyways)...

[Emperor_Troll]

The only reason you all won't run and record a steam is because you know you will get destroyed by any competent player(s) without a great team to back you up.

 

gl peeps, keep up the unnecessary complaining that won't help the development team move forward.

[Devilk]

So I assume you're willing to change the fact that they can't do anything during the bubble as well, and maybe you should propose some amazing changes to FD/ED while you're at it (it's essentially the same thing, but the jugg/guardian can still move around), and you might want to address evasion/shroud + combat stealth on stealth classes since that's pretty op... or that 100% dodge chance on concealment's roll...

 

Sounds like you have a lot of work to do, why don't you start brainstorming on the above and when you come back I'm sure I'll have a few more DCDs that you'll need to cripple.

 

Rofl, no it's not the same thing. ED can be bursted through and nullified. Barrier cannot.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Devilk

[alexsamma]

Rofl, no it's not the same thing. ED can be bursted through and nullified. Barrier cannot.

 

And you can move with ED up and continue to dps/tank/etc, you cannot do that with barrier up, it's also one of the many DCDs that guardians/juggs have access to that allow the guardian to stay in the mix.

 

P.S. I have two Juggs and one guardian, you don't need to explain why juggs need these dcds, I fully understand.

Edited December 30, 2014 by alexsamma

[Galothor]

youve so clearly never played a merc in pvp its just... well its obvious.

 

the burst argument is debatable pending your spec in your sorc, but undispellable dots and a bubble to watch as we die offset that anyway so... meh.

 

you compared a spammable AOE to one that isnt... apples/oranges

 

youre knockback point is so wrong.. unless the opponent is stupid and burns his closer to begin the fight it doesnt even save us a GCD

 

i notice most of your defensive comparisons are to snipers... not mercs, as it should be since we dont have any, lol

 

you foget how your bubble can stun, how you have slows... so many things... and as for your point on people wanting lighting, you should perhaps consider than one of the most popular characters in the lore in a BH...

 

If you read my whole post you would have noticed that I also think, that mercs could need some love in form of survivability. The only thing I added to that is that the buff needs to be in relation to their burst potential; meaning the higher the reliable burst the lower the survivability has to be - generally known as glass canon concept.

 

But you are right on the AOE part. after reading your post and re-reading my post I noticed that I forgot to answer to that point. So here it is:

I basically agree with you that there is too much AoE. But the AOE damage cuts both ways, because in both sorc dps disciplines the respective AoE ability is a vital part of the spec - even on single targets. This leads to the problem that effective soft-stunning / cc'ing with a sorc on your team is very difficult, as you can control those AoE abilities to a certain degree. The only alternative is to not use those abilities, which leads to a huge plunge in dps.

As a matter of fact, as a madness sorc you can only achieve decent dps if you use as much AoE damage (via DF and dot spread) as possible. Which again prevents effective cc. And I wasn't talking about Force Storm here - just to make things clear.

 

That being said, the current state of Force Storm is a joke. How can the AoE attack FS hit critically for 4k when Force Lightning as a single target ability only hits for 2-2,5k. I don't think it is as bad as smash was, as smash delivered 10-12k hits instataneously, but it definitely is too strong. The main issue here is that the damage is too high, for not having a CD. But if it should have a cd, the damage should be as high as it is for Death from Above.

 

As for your complaint about sorcs using DoTs and Barrier in combination. First, that would only work once every 2.5 to 3 mins. Second, it takes 3 GCDs and a 2 sec channel to put all the DoTs on you (incl. Deathfield). Look at how much damage you can do with your burst in the same time. It far outweighs the damage those DoTs will do over the next 12 sec. A major part of the Madness Sorcs' damage comes from Force Lightning, which they won't be using while inside their barrier. Plus you got your Electro Net, which btw got a lower CD than either Stun Breaker or Force Barrier.

 

There is also nothing wrong with my Knockback statement. Against well playing melees my knockback only hits in like 3 to 5 out of 10 cases, because of server lag and it not being 360°. In addition the distance it knocks the enemy back is smaller than that of mercs and snipers. And as if that is not enough, sniper's knockback got an inherent root while merc knockback got an inherent slow - which btw is AoE and for which's single target version sorcs have to use 1 gcd and 1 cd.

 

And finally, just btw, bubble does not stun by default. And I don't know why you as a ranged class are complaining about.

[Galothor]

You countered my first point of their ability to heal with their ability to do big hits. I wasn't talking about big hits... I was talking about how sorcs can spam heal and neither snipers nor mercs can.

 

I compare sorcs to mercs and snipers because they are all ranged classes. Imo it doesn't make sense to compare ranged with melee because melee and ranged both need different toolsets to support that specific play style. What benefits a ranged class may not benefit a melee.

 

As far as ranged classes go.. Sorcs are easily the best. Better abilities, healing, mobility, healing, resource... They are just better

 

Your first statement here only shows your narrow view. Big burst means you need lower survivabilty if you want to achieve balance. A sniper can do 30k damage within 1.5 sec to 3sec, sorcs can't. So sorc's need tools to offset that and stay alive, because it is not like the sniper cannot deal any damage anymore after those 30k. Same goes for the mercs. They can defeat a sorc in 1v1. The only problem they have is if people gang up on them. And the problem here is, as also mentioned in the previous posts, that while they could use some higher survivabilty it cannot be as high as that of a sorc, due to the higher burst / single target dps they have.

 

The reason for why I suggested to compare snipers also with classes other than mercs and sorcs is that if you want to achieve class balance you have to balance each class against every other class in the game - that includes melees. In addition melees are currently stronger than range dps. As I mentioned before any melee (except for mara) can fairly easily kill a sorc - in your eyes the most powerful range class at the moment. And in a 1on1 situation even Mercs and Snipers have good chance of killing a sorc. To me a class that is OP is not easily killed by that many other classes (e.g. like maras back in the days). But I know why you are not comparing your class with those class; because for your it is far easier to handle those melees as it is for sorcs and mercs. You can sit there in your cover, thus not getting charged at, immune to any kind of stunm, cc, or interupt and with a fool-proof escape button. When sorcs use force speed they simply get push or stunned. You on the other hand just rofl away and are immediately afterwards sitting in your cover again.

 

Talking about toolsets, you want heal? You want a force barrier as a sniper? Get rid of your cover and all associated immunities and damage reduction, and make your escape ability susceptible to cc! Snipers got nothing to complain about.

Btw, if you give up your cover you will get that mobility you want for free. You can already test it, just don't use cover at all - enjoy.

[AlrikFassbauer]

And finally, just btw, bubble does not stun by default.

 

Not by default. That's right.

But you can put a point into it.

[Loxei]

As a sorc I have issues with PTs and Assassins so if we are getting nerfed I want them to get nerfed as well. And if these classes have problems with other classes they should get nerfed as well. And voila, we are at patch 2.9 again.

[PeterZeani]

For a long time i didn't even want to play with my sorc on WZ because i got tired of being a free stats boost to every jugg, assassin and operative around. Now sorcs are finally contenders again and all of you are crying bitter tears because you completely forgot already how to even play vs sorcs.

Grow up boys and girls, it's not the game that is broken it's your skills. The ACTUALLY good players are not crying, they just figure out skillful ways to deal with it.