Why does the new Combat/Carnage ability effective remove another ability?

[JimG]

It seems a little cheap that Combat/Carnage get a new ability at level 57 (Clashing Blast/Devastating Blast) but that it effectively eliminates a base Sentinel/Marauder ability (Blade Storm/Force Scream) because they share a cooldown. So you can't use them both in any rotation. The new ability is a different looking, more powerful version of Blade Storm/Force Scream. So basically we got an upgraded ability. Whereas, the other Sentinel/Marauder specs get a new high damage ability at level 57 AND they get to keep Blade Storm....the new level 57 abilities for the other specs don't eliminate any other abilities with any shared cooldowns. Even for Sorcerers under the Lightning spec, they get Lightning Bolt at level 57 which is supposed to be a different looking, upgraded version of Lightning Strike (they even referred to it as a replacement for Lightning Strike on the livestream) but they get to keep Lightning Strike. Admittedly, it has less use, but I've still used it situationally.

 

The increased damage amount from Clashing Blast/Devastating Blast over Blade Storm/Force Scream is much less than the damage output of the new level 57 abilities for the other specs. So was this as a case of the development team trying to less the DPS output of Combat/Carnage because they believed it was outperforming the other specs too much or was this just an oversight? Just feels a little screwy that there's a new expansion with a level increase and new powers and for this particular spec, you essentially get an upgraded version of a base class power, with different looking visual effects, which effectively removes your ability to use the base class power.

[GatorAndy]

I think all four base classes (and mirrors) have at least one spec with an upgraded ability that shares a cooldown with the ability it is better than.

 

Is it lazy? Perhaps. But, it is what it is.

 

Bottom line, Carnage/Combat isn't the only spec in the game where this is the case.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Because Watchman and Fury don't use Blade Storm much in their rotation?

[DOHboy]

Because Watchman and Fury don't use Blade Storm much in their rotation?

 

I think you added an extra "much" in that sentence.

 

If a level 55+ watchman is actively using blade storm, other than to just do something different on trash mobs that would be one/two shot by master strike anyway, then they REALLY need to L2P their class.

 

Next you'll be telling me to put force choke and leg slash back in my rotation (other than PVP). Only time I've ever used it was when leveling in the 20-30 range.

[Orizuru]

Bioware announced months ago that there would be abilities like this that replaced other abilities on your toolbars. When they announced it they indicated that it was because they wanted to be certain that everyone got at least one new skill, but they didn't want to change rotations/priorities much, so they decided upon skills that would replace and improve an existing skill.

 

I can't answer why the increase in damage is less than other skills for other classes, but it could have something to do with where the skill falls in the rotation/priority and the length of it's cooldown. If the ability your Mara uses was used twice as often in your rotation as the improved skill for another class, it would likely only get half the damage increase. This would keep things balanced because over a 3 minute parse the increase in sustained or burst dps provided by the new skills would be fairly close.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I think you added an extra "much" in that sentence.

 

If a level 55+ watchman is actively using blade storm, other than to just do something different on trash mobs that would be one/two shot by master strike anyway, then they REALLY need to L2P their class.

 

Next you'll be telling me to put force choke and leg slash back in my rotation (other than PVP). Only time I've ever used it was when leveling in the 20-30 range.

 

I only put it there in case someone came a long and tried to say that they did which in a casual case you can do but optimum wise you shouldn't.

[KyaniteD]

When Execute is up you use Force Scream, when it's not, you use Devastating Blast?

 

I'm not sure about the numbers, maybe just FS every ~45s to keep the armor reduction up?

Edited December 9, 2014 by KyaniteD

[leihn]

Operatives have this, Veiled Strike replaces Shiv for Concealment, Lethal Strike replaces Backstab for Lethality. It's to give the spec a little more flavor for a skill they already use in their rotation so they don't have to use the base one. This lets them have a simpler rotation while still getting new utility.

[DOHboy]

I only put it there in case someone came a long and tried to say that they did which in a casual case you can do but optimum wise you shouldn't.

 

I was just reaffirming that notion....no watchman worth a lightsaber uses it in any rotation outside of a bored and want to hit a different button on a weak.

[Orizuru]

When Execute is up you use Force Scream, when it's not, you use Devastating Blast?

 

I'm not sure about the numbers, maybe just FS every ~45s to keep the armor reduction up?

 

Execute should increase the damage of Devastating Blast in exactly the same manner it does Force Scream and since DB does more damage than FS, there is not reason to ever use FS again once you acquire DB.

[JimG]

It's still pretty lame. They didn't just replace an ability outright in the level 1-55 game. This is the "new" level 57 ability. So the only "new" ability you're getting post level 55 is just an upgraded version of a previous ability. If they wanted to simplify rotations, etc., then there are other ways to do it....but hitting level 57 and getting your "new ability only to lose a different ability is still cheap and lazy, especially when it's basically a different looking version of the ability you're losing. Might as well just give us a passive damage bonus for Blade Storm/Force Scream at 57 because that's essentially what they did. When ROTHC came out, we got Twin Saber Throw which is a pretty cool ability and a lot of fun to use. With SOR, we're not really getting a new and fun high level ability, but really just a passive damage bonus on a base power with a visual effects change to give the illusion of a "new" ability. Edited December 9, 2014 by JimG

[CloudCastle]

Actually, what's even weirder is that a level or two after I received my "replacement" ability, I continued to get offered new upgrades from the trainer on the old ability. Why? I thought I was supposed to stop using that ability, right? I don't understand this change and what it's supposed to do really.

[Orizuru]

Actually, what's even weirder is that a level or two after I received my "replacement" ability, I continued to get offered new upgrades from the trainer on the old ability. Why? I thought I was supposed to stop using that ability, right? I don't understand this change and what it's supposed to do really.

 

Force Scream is used by more than one spec. The specs that do not get Devastating Blast would want to continue upgrading Force Scream.

[KyaniteD]

Execute should increase the damage of Devastating Blast in exactly the same manner it does Force Scream and since DB does more damage than FS, there is not reason to ever use FS again once you acquire DB.

 

You're right, just logged in and checked the tooltip. So it's really just an upgraded version of FS. Oh well, there goes the excitement...

Edited December 9, 2014 by KyaniteD

[Orizuru]

It's still pretty lame. They didn't just replace an ability outright in the level 1-55 game. This is the "new" level 57 ability. So the only "new" ability you're getting post level 55 is just an upgraded version of a previous ability. If they wanted to simplify rotations, etc., then there are other ways to do it....but hitting level 57 and getting your "new ability only to lose a different ability is still cheap and lazy, especially when it's basically a different looking version of the ability you're losing. Might as well just give us a passive damage bonus for Blade Storm/Force Scream at 57 because that's essentially what they did. When ROTHC came out, we got Twin Saber Throw which is a pretty cool ability and a lot of fun to use. With SOR, we're not really getting a new and fun high level ability, but really just a passive damage bonus on a base power with a visual effects change to give the illusion of a "new" ability.

 

They were worried that adding in new abilities would complicate rotations too much and clutter toolbars. I have to agree with them on this one. When I played WoW I didn't mind complex rotations and I didn't mind relearning rotations when new abilities were added. But I loathed having to find a place to put it on a toolbar so I could assign a usable keybind to it.

[leihn]

It's still pretty lame. They didn't just replace an ability outright in the level 1-55 game. This is the "new" level 57 ability. So the only "new" ability you're getting post level 55 is just an upgraded version of a previous ability. If they wanted to simplify rotations, etc., then there are other ways to do it....but hitting level 57 and getting your "new ability only to lose a different ability is still cheap and lazy, especially when it's basically a different looking version of the ability you're losing. Might as well just give us a passive damage bonus for Blade Storm/Force Scream at 57 because that's essentially what they did. When ROTHC came out, we got Twin Saber Throw which is a pretty cool ability and a lot of fun to use. With SOR, we're not really getting a new and fun high level ability, but really just a passive damage bonus on a base power with a visual effects change to give the illusion of a "new" ability.

 

Well marauders got quite a few new skills, just Carnage didn't.

[CloudCastle]

Force Scream is used by more than one spec. The specs that do not get Devastating Blast would want to continue upgrading Force Scream.

 

Well, in my case I was talking about speed shot on my gunslinger. Maybe that explains it though...but does that mean that the new ability replaces a different skill instead for non-sharpshooter gunslingers?

[BoboHut]

Bioware announced months ago that there would be abilities like this that replaced other abilities on your toolbars. When they announced it they indicated that it was because they wanted to be certain that everyone got at least one new skill, but they didn't want to change rotations/priorities much, so they decided upon skills that would replace and improve an existing skill.

 

This.

 

The reason they leave you with two abilities that share a cooldown with each other instead of the ability being replaced completely when you respec was explained during one of the their Twitch streams. They said they would love to but they don't have the tech.

[K_osss]

Well I've got room on my bars since they removed Cauterize, Crippling Throw, and Riposte from my Sentinel.... Definitely not "more complicated".

[leihn]

Well, in my case I was talking about speed shot on my gunslinger. Maybe that explains it though...but does that mean that the new ability replaces a different skill instead for non-sharpshooter gunslingers?

 

Only Sharpshooters get Penetrating Rounds which replaces Speed Shot for them. Other Gunslingers don't ever get Penetrating Rounds and have to use Speed Shot if it's part of their rotation.

 

Snipers and Gunslingers iirc are one of the classes that received the fewest new abilities, but had some extensive changes to existing abilities.

 

Sharpshooters get Penetrating Rounds which functionally replaces Speed Shot and Dirty Fighting gets Dirty Blast which effectively replaces Charged Burst. Those are their only new abilities iirc.

[JimG]

When Execute is up you use Force Scream, when it's not, you use Devastating Blast?

 

I'm not sure about the numbers, maybe just FS every ~45s to keep the armor reduction up?

 

Execute buffs both Force Scream and Devastating Blast......so, no.

[Orizuru]

Well, in my case I was talking about speed shot on my gunslinger. Maybe that explains it though...but does that mean that the new ability replaces a different skill instead for non-sharpshooter gunslingers?

 

Correct. Speed shot is replaced by Penetrating Rounds on a Sharpshooter, while Dirty Fighting got Dirty Blast to replace Charged Blast.

 

If I remember correctly Saboteur was the only spec for Gunslinger that doesn't get a new skill to replace an old one, but they did redesign the Sabotage skill to allow better resource management.

[JimG]

They were worried that adding in new abilities would complicate rotations too much and clutter toolbars. I have to agree with them on this one. When I played WoW I didn't mind complex rotations and I didn't mind relearning rotations when new abilities were added. But I loathed having to find a place to put it on a toolbar so I could assign a usable keybind to it.

 

This.

 

The reason they leave you with two abilities that share a cooldown with each other instead of the ability being replaced completely when you respec was explained during one of the their Twitch streams. They said they would love to but they don't have the tech.

 

You're both missing the point. There were plenty of changes to be made to the level 1-55 abilities to accomplish this. In fact, they removed some abilities in the level 1-55 part of the game. But having our only active "new" ability in the post-55 game be basically just a passive bonus to damage on Blade Storm/Carnage with a different visual effect is extremely underwhelming. The other 2 post-55 abilities are passives. Basically, you're just giving 3 passives but giving the appearance of a new active ability due to different visual effects and the shared cooldown with Bladestorm/Force Scream which effectively removes that power from the game for the Combat/Carnage spec. (Other classes/specs may have similar issues, just using this one as an example as I held off on training other classes once I heard they were getting rid of training costs). If you're going to have 5 new levels and 3 "new" powers post-55 on a paid expansion, at least one of them should be an actual new, unique active ability. No matter how you paint it, Clashing Blast/Devastating Blast is really just a passive damage bonus to Blade Storm/Force Scream....and that's just lazy programming and development.

[leihn]

You're both missing the point. There were plenty of changes to be made to the level 1-55 abilities to accomplish this. In fact, they removed some abilities in the level 1-55 part of the game. But having our only active "new" ability in the post-55 game be basically just a passive bonus to damage on Blade Storm/Carnage with a different visual effect is extremely underwhelming. The other 2 post-55 abilities are passives. Basically, you're just giving 3 passives but giving the appearance of a new active ability due to different visual effects and the shared cooldown with Bladestorm/Force Scream which effectively removes that power from the game for the Combat/Carnage spec. (Other classes/specs may have similar issues, just using this one as an example as I held off on training other classes once I heard they were getting rid of training costs). If you're going to have 5 new levels and 3 "new" powers post-55 on a paid expansion, at least one of them should be an actual new, unique active ability. No matter how you paint it, Clashing Blast/Devastating Blast is really just a passive damage bonus to Blade Storm/Force Scream....and that's just lazy programming and development.

 

Yah that's okay, marauders got some actual new skills in Rage and w/e your other spec is called. Seems fine to me.

[Orizuru]

You're both missing the point. There were plenty of changes to be made to the level 1-55 abilities to accomplish this. In fact, they removed some abilities in the level 1-55 part of the game. But having our only active "new" ability in the post-55 game be basically just a passive bonus to damage on Blade Storm/Carnage with a different visual effect is extremely underwhelming. The other 2 post-55 abilities are passives. Basically, you're just giving 3 passives but giving the appearance of a new active ability due to different visual effects and the shared cooldown with Bladestorm/Force Scream which effectively removes that power from the game for the Combat/Carnage spec. (Other classes/specs may have similar issues, just using this one as an example as I held off on training other classes once I heard they were getting rid of training costs). If you're going to have 5 new levels and 3 "new" powers post-55 on a paid expansion, at least one of them should be an actual new, unique active ability. No matter how you paint it, Clashing Blast/Devastating Blast is really just a passive damage bonus to Blade Storm/Force Scream....and that's just lazy programming and development.

 

No, I got the point you were making. I just don't share your opinion on it. I don't think you're wrong, its just not a big deal to me. I understand where the devs are coming from with their reasons for why they did what they did with most of the classes. I dislike the longer cooldown on interrupts more than I do the lack of completely new abilities.