infiltration/decption

[dwiekopy]

DEVS! please make shadow strike/maul critical hit. We could built for example 3 stacks with some skill and BAM critical backstab. snipers got ambush critical which is awesome. do the same for shadow classes

[Evolixe]

When this was suggested earlier into 2.0 I laughed at the idea because it would be horrendously OP.

 

Now.. It might not be so bad to be honest.

[Aelanis]

When this was suggested earlier into 2.0 I laughed at the idea because it would be horrendously OP.

 

Now.. It might not be so bad to be honest.

 

The set bonus already causes it to auto-crit once a minute, or an extra ~17% of the time. It also doesn't have the surge it used to, so an auto-crit, while strong, wouldn't be as powerful as it was in 2.10.

 

What I'd rather see is Recklessness turned into an auto-crit. On the PTS forums, we saw that the devs actually model it as an auto-crit, so why not make it surefire, and stop making us suffer when RNG frowns on us? If I could go back, I'd copy the suggestions I made about tuning up Deception a little bit, but I don't think it's in as poor a spot as many people seem to think it is. PvPers are going to be sad because the burst didn't rise with player HP, which is a flat out nerf, but that was a design change we couldn't sway the devs away from, so I don't think we can get that fixed to our liking, either.

[MiaRB]

The set bonus already causes it to auto-crit once a minute, or an extra ~17% of the time. It also doesn't have the surge it used to, so an auto-crit, while strong, wouldn't be as powerful as it was in 2.10.

 

What I'd rather see is Recklessness turned into an auto-crit. On the PTS forums, we saw that the devs actually model it as an auto-crit, so why not make it surefire, and stop making us suffer when RNG frowns on us? If I could go back, I'd copy the suggestions I made about tuning up Deception a little bit, but I don't think it's in as poor a spot as many people seem to think it is. PvPers are going to be sad because the burst didn't rise with player HP, which is a flat out nerf, but that was a design change we couldn't sway the devs away from, so I don't think we can get that fixed to our liking, either.

 

its not just that damage didn't scale up the same as health, its the multiple other nerfs to deception/infiltration that make the spec a very poor choice in PVP in 3.0. yeah, don't think devs are going to change the damage/health ratio, but they could un-nerf crit damage bonus or un-nerf shadow strike proc from low slash spinning kick. or they could put the extra charge of potency back into set bonus instead of as a wasted utility point. or they could give some set bonuses that actually are worth something instead of a pitiful +2% damage and a autocrit that is only once every 60 seconds.

Edited December 8, 2014 by MiaRB

[helpmewin]

DEVS! please make shadow strike/maul critical hit. We could built for example 3 stacks with some skill and BAM critical backstab. snipers got ambush critical which is awesome. do the same for shadow classes

 

They will not.

 

When this was suggested earlier into 2.0 I laughed at the idea because it would be horrendously OP.

 

Now.. It might not be so bad to be honest.

 

And btw ambush is the biggest hit what i've seen. With auto-crit from stacks. Nice. But devs don't give this to sins, cause they've got auto-crit maul(once every minute) and force potency.

Edited December 8, 2014 by helpmewin

[Aelanis]

its not just that damage didn't scale up the same as health, its the multiple other nerfs to deception/infiltration that make the spec a very poor choice in PVP in 3.0. yeah, don't think devs are going to change the damage/health ratio, but they could un-nerf crit damage bonus or un-nerf shadow strike proc from low slash spinning kick. or they could put the extra charge of potency back into set bonus instead of as a wasted utility point. or they could give some set bonuses that actually are worth something instead of a pitiful +2% damage and a autocrit that is only once every 60 seconds.

+2% damage for 15 seconds is far better than you give it credit for. No, it's not a huge burst boost, but it's very strong, and much better than any of the 2 pieces we've seen for PvE or PvP, the 4 piece gives us the strongest part of the old PvP 4 piece, and the 6 piece is just gravy on top of that. The surge nerf really only hurt Maul, and not by a massive amount. Deception didn't get as many nerfs as people seem to think it did. It's burst went down a bit, but the real problem is what I said: the big boost to health and nerf to overall damage output. It has simply devalued burst a little in PvP.

...And btw ambush is the biggest hit what i've seen. With auto-crit from stacks. Nice. But devs don't give this to sins, cause they've got auto-crit maul(once every minute) and force potency.

Marksmanship gets 2 crits every minute (without counting alacrity) on a very hard hitting ability. It'll do roughly double damage on a crit (+7.5k in full 192s) That's an extra 15k every minute, separated by the cooldown of Ambush (12 seconds). Deception, on the other hand, gets 4 stacks of Recklessness a minute (averaged), plus an auto-crit on Maul once a minute. That's 3 crit Ball Lightnings (+3.5k damage each) and a crit Discharge (+4.5k damage) and a crit Maul (+6k damage) each minute. Last I checked, 21k damage > 15k damage, so yes, they're quite justified in picking a very hard hitting ability to get the autocrit.

[MiaRB]

+2% damage for 15 seconds is far better than you give it credit for. No, it's not a huge burst boost, but it's very strong, and much better than any of the 2 pieces we've seen for PvE or PvP, the 4 piece gives us the strongest part of the old PvP 4 piece, and the 6 piece is just gravy on top of that. The surge nerf really only hurt Maul, and not by a massive amount. Deception didn't get as many nerfs as people seem to think it did. It's burst went down a bit, but the real problem is what I said: the big boost to health and nerf to overall damage output. It has simply devalued burst a little in PvP.

 

.

 

what? breech and project/pblast lost 20% critbonus damage. I didn't even notice that shadow strike lost its crit bonus damage completely. which was 30% and is replaced by only a 14% increase in base damage. add in all the other nerfs and the spec is even worse off than I was thinking.

 

the +2% may help in boss fights in PVE but all it really does in PVP is pad score board stats a little. increased range of slow and mind snap, plus the extra potency charge was much more helpful in PVP than +2%. autocrit on nerfed shadow strike once per minute is better than nothing, but still not great considering all that was lost.

Edited December 8, 2014 by MiaRB

[DerSchneider]

Sins have stealth give it to snipers

And I wanna pewpew with a double blade, give it to me too.

[Aelanis]

what? breech and project/pblast lost 20% critbonus damage. I didn't even notice that shadow strike lost its crit bonus damage completely. which was 30% and is replaced by only a 14% increase in base damage. add in all the other nerfs and the spec is even worse off than I was thinking.

 

the +2% may help in boss fights in PVE but all it really does in PVP is pad score board stats a little. increased range of slow and mind snap, plus the extra potency charge was much more helpful in PVP than +2%. autocrit on nerfed shadow strike once per minute is better than nothing, but still not great considering all that was lost.

 

Base damage on both Project and Breach are both higher, which multiplies through on a crit, so the difference isn't so big as you seem to think. 14% base increase in damage is worth almost 75% as much as a 30% surge talent when you crit, and is actually useful if you don't. It's, again, not nerfed as badly as you seem to think it is. An extra 2% damage for 15 seconds is nothing to sneeze at, and worth more than just "[padding] score board stats a little." 2% extra damage multiplied through on 3 crit breaches and 3 crit Projects, not to mention a crit Shadow Strike, gives you an extra thousand damage, plus the boost to all your other moves, worth about an extra 75 dps. And it's a set bonus, it's not meant to be super-crazy-amazing.

[MiaRB]

Base damage on both Project and Breach are both higher, which multiplies through on a crit, so the difference isn't so big as you seem to think. 14% base increase in damage is worth almost 75% as much as a 30% surge talent when you crit, and is actually useful if you don't. It's, again, not nerfed as badly as you seem to think it is. An extra 2% damage for 15 seconds is nothing to sneeze at, and worth more than just "[padding] score board stats a little." 2% extra damage multiplied through on 3 crit breaches and 3 crit Projects, not to mention a crit Shadow Strike, gives you an extra thousand damage, plus the boost to all your other moves, worth about an extra 75 dps. And it's a set bonus, it's not meant to be super-crazy-amazing.

 

the increase to base attack damage does not scale with the increase to health pools. relative to health, breech, project/pblast and shadow strike take away less of a % of health than before 3.0. im not going to bother doing math, but even if you adjusted for the damage/health ratio changes, I would bet money that those attacks still do take less % of health than before 3.0. sorry, but that +2% doesn't even come close to making up for the massive lost of burst, which was the role of the spec.

 

and as ive said on another thread, the nerf to crit damage isnt even the only nerfs to the spec. I haven't played all my other characters at 60 yet, but I really don't think any other class or specs got as many nerfs as infiltration/deception got. most seem to have received a net buff overall, but this spec received a net nerf overall for sure.

 

the only reason to use or to take infiltration spec in PVP was because it had great burst. we lived with being down at the bottom of sustained DPS because burst was so good. now, burst isn't very good and not even the best anymore, but the spec is still at the bottom for sustained DPS;. the spec is just not good and no reason to take into rated because other classes have better burst, better range, better survivability, and better overall DPS in 3.0.

[PlagaNerezza]

the increase to base attack damage does not scale with the increase to health pools. relative to health, breech, project/pblast and shadow strike take away less of a % of health than before 3.0. im not going to bother doing math, but even if you adjusted for the damage/health ratio changes, I would bet money that those attacks still do take less % of health than before 3.0. sorry, but that +2% doesn't even come close to making up for the massive lost of burst, which was the role of the spec.

 

and as ive said on another thread, the nerf to crit damage isnt even the only nerfs to the spec. I haven't played all my other characters at 60 yet, but I really don't think any other class or specs got as many nerfs as infiltration/deception got. most seem to have received a net buff overall, but this spec received a net nerf overall for sure.

 

the only reason to use or to take infiltration spec in PVP was because it had great burst. we lived with being down at the bottom of sustained DPS because burst was so good. now, burst isn't very good and not even the best anymore, but the spec is still at the bottom for sustained DPS;. the spec is just not good and no reason to take into rated because other classes have better burst, better range, better survivability, and better overall DPS in 3.0.

 

Let me modify that statement slightly. Better Range, better dps and better burst.

 

You cannot possibly having survivability issues as an assassin in 3.0 unless you don't retreat when its time to leave a losing situation. I won't cover deception exactly as I play hatred now because its so OP, but you cannot possibly believe we don't survive well.

 

You have something like 9 seconds of force/tech invulnerability and a 60m retreat when talented. The problem has to be burst or they know you hit hard to start and try and flee vs. fight you with that massive opening. I will say the only class giving me grief individually so far in 3.0 is a deception assassin. Its the one class with solid DOT counters.

 

I see 4vs4 being gimped, but all close in burst DPS struggles in those maps. Who wouldn't take a ranged DPS in ranked over a melee dps whose biggest burst hit is so unreliable.

 

I don't get conspirators cloak that skill is a burst skill in a tank tree and entropic field is a tank skill in a burst tree. Those 2 switching trees is the solution to assassins burst. Let us proc maul forward facing it solves a lot of burst timing issues. Hatred and Tanks are not in need of a burst melee.

 

PVP:

Disjunction is a mandatory talent. It stacks with Shroud of Madness which is also mandatory. As in on combat stealth you receive 4 seconds of shroud. I view dark stability as mandatory as well, but I guess a tank might take some secondary utility if snares and roots don't hurt them as bad as they do dps specs. These are in every build as mobility and short range are required as far as I play.

 

The only "play" in pvp for assassin skills is in tier 1 in my opinion. I can see some arguing for insulation over shapeless spirit or taking both of those over avoidance. I use electric binding in my builds. Group roots are highly useful in almost any wz map. If your playing an assassin the benefits are great for deception and madness to electric bindings. I can see avoidance over electric binding, but I prefer to drop insulation. Another root is far more useful to me running hatred that a 30% AR boost.

[helpmewin]

Who cares about deception? Dead in 4*4 grp, dead in ops, cause in both madness better or other classes/specs. Still playing cause never liked dot derps, anyway still competetive in regs and solo. Edited December 8, 2014 by helpmewin

[Aelanis]

...and as ive said on another thread, the nerf to crit damage isnt even the only nerfs to the spec. I haven't played all my other characters at 60 yet, but I really don't think any other class or specs got as many nerfs as infiltration/deception got. most seem to have received a net buff overall, but this spec received a net nerf overall for sure...

This paragraph here shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Concealment lost Orbital (boohoo, it wasn't that great in the end, but it was unlimited targets), Explosive Probe, Hidden Strike (can't back-to-back Acid Blade), the ability to move Acid Blade's energy cost in your rotation, the ability to always have Corrosive Dart on the target, Carbine burst does piddly damage compared to 2.10 for the same cost, they lost surge boosts, they lost crit bonuses and they lost +3% damage with Tactical Advantage up. Also, Rage went from hands down the best to hands down the worst AoE spec in the game, so tell me again how we received the worst in the rounds of nerfs that all classes received.

the only reason to use or to take infiltration spec in PVP was because it had great burst. we lived with being down at the bottom of sustained DPS because burst was so good. now, burst isn't very good and not even the best anymore, but the spec is still at the bottom for sustained DPS;. the spec is just not good and no reason to take into rated because other classes have better burst, better range, better survivability, and better overall DPS in 3.0.

Deception still have pretty good burst. I can still burst 9k dps over 3 globals in my 180/186 PvE gear at level 60 against silver mobs. Also, still not at the bottom for sustained, that would be Arsenal, who is still at the bottom of the barrel, though far, far more mobile than before.

 

Edited because I can't read my own logs.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Aelanis

[SlimGenre]

I would argue that deception/infiltration is still a very viable discipline in PvP now. Voltaic Slash still melting 5-6k off and I'm still hitting over 15k on a Maul crit. There is more to pvp then just being top of the deeps list, wish more people realized that. All in all you can have up to 6 instacast interrupts/stuns/roots plus your in-stealth mind snap. I can literally stand there and rupt everything a healer tries to get off, plus some damage output and let a jugg or operative just destroy them. I care about winning, not pulling out a ruler and proving I have the biggest, longest deeps in the room.

 

I also do not feel like my damage has come down much, still at lvl 55, didn't pre-order in time. I even saw an infiltration shadow pump out about 1.2 mil dps a few days ago on a voidstar. I would say deception/infiltration is still a great utility class with decent burst, I'm putting out slightly higher damage numbers per round that I was pre 3.0. In deception in a good round with healers keeping me in the game I was usually around 500k per round and madness closer to 700k pre3.0, now I'm about 100k higher in each. Even broke 700k this past week in deception, which I had never done before. (yes I know, all of you in the forums manage to pump out billions of damage per round like you tell us all the time in the forums, but we all know when we're not bragging online, that's not true).

 

Yes, madness gets you better numbers, but I'm still going to enjoy doing both.

Edited December 9, 2014 by SlimGenre

[MiaRB]

This paragraph here shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Concealment lost Orbital (boohoo, it wasn't that great in the end, but it was unlimited targets), Explosive Probe, Hidden Strike (can't back-to-back Acid Blade), the ability to move Acid Blade's energy cost in your rotation, the ability to always have Corrosive Dart on the target, Carbine burst does piddly damage compared to 2.10 for the same cost, they lost surge boosts, they lost crit bonuses and they lost +3% damage with Tactical Advantage up. Also, Rage went from hands down the best to hands down the worst AoE spec in the game, so tell me again how we received the worst in the rounds of nerfs that all classes received.

 

Deception still have pretty good burst. I can still burst 9k dps over 4 globals in my 180/186 PvE gear at level 60 against silver mobs. Also, still not at the bottom for sustained, that would be Arsenal, who is still at the bottom of the barrel, though far, far more mobile than before.

 

oh ok, we counting nerfs that happened before 3.0? well then we can add the bonus damage that project lost pre-3.0 then as well. so counting that, the loss of burst damage is enourmous.

 

i wouldn't call current burst "pretty good", more like pretty average right now. simple fact is, BW took away burst damage and replaced it with sustained damage, which helps for parse scores and boss fights, but hurts the spec in PVP.

Edited December 10, 2014 by MiaRB

[MiaRB]

I would argue that deception/infiltration is still a very viable discipline in PvP now. Voltaic Slash still melting 5-6k off and I'm still hitting over 15k on a Maul crit. There is more to pvp then just being top of the deeps list, wish more people realized that. All in all you can have up to 6 instacast interrupts/stuns/roots plus your in-stealth mind snap. I can literally stand there and rupt everything a healer tries to get off, plus some damage output and let a jugg or operative just destroy them. I care about winning, not pulling out a ruler and proving I have the biggest, longest deeps in the room.

 

I also do not feel like my damage has come down much, still at lvl 55, didn't pre-order in time. I even saw an infiltration shadow pump out about 1.2 mil dps a few days ago on a voidstar. I would say deception/infiltration is still a great utility class with decent burst, I'm putting out slightly higher damage numbers per round that I was pre 3.0. In deception in a good round with healers keeping me in the game I was usually around 500k per round and madness closer to 700k pre3.0, now I'm about 100k higher in each. Even broke 700k this past week in deception, which I had never done before. (yes I know, all of you in the forums manage to pump out billions of damage per round like you tell us all the time in the forums, but we all know when we're not bragging online, that's not true).

 

Yes, madness gets you better numbers, but I'm still going to enjoy doing both.

 

utility has nothing to do with what we are talking about. you get just as much utility from the other two specs. you'll help you team more in one of the other two specs than with infiltration and deception. and really, wait until you are at 60 WZs before you really try to judge anything.

[Evolixe]

PVP:

Disjunction is a mandatory talent. It stacks with Shroud of Madness which is also mandatory. As in on combat stealth you receive 4 seconds of shroud. I view dark stability as mandatory as well, but I guess a tank might take some secondary utility if snares and roots don't hurt them as bad as they do dps specs. These are in every build as mobility and short range are required as far as I play.

 

Disnjunction is not mandatory at all. Hell I don't even consider it for my PvP builds.

Resilience is for cleansing and that's about it. Deflection does the rest.

 

 

Also, in tier 1.. everything is set in stone. Avoidance, REQUIRED. Obfuscation, REQUIRED.

Electric Bindings, HIGHLY recommended to the point where I wouldn't even consider anything else.

 

Tier 2.. Emersion, Do I really have to say why this is beyond required..? Audacity HIGHLY recommended for the added peels and control. Disjuction is your other option which isn't bad.. but since I really only use Resilience to cleanse theise days im not so blown away by it.

 

Tier 3, Dark Stability, REQUIRED for any DPS sin. Shroud of Madness, Pretty much required in Pug PvP; Can be swapped for Containment in team 4v4.

[Aelanis]

oh ok, we counting nerfs that happened before 3.0? well then we can add the bonus damage that project lost pre-3.0 then as well. so counting that, the loss of burst damage is enourmous.

 

i wouldn't call current burst "pretty good", more like pretty average right now. simple fact is, BW took away burst damage and replaced it with sustained damage, which helps for parse scores and boss fights, but hurts the spec in PVP.

 

No, that was all changes for 3.0. Now, please, tell me, in 2.X, where did Project lose damage? From 1.7 to 2.0 doesn't count, since that's not in 2.X, that was a different expansion.

 

Also, let me get this straight: 9k burst dps for 4.5 seconds (40k damage!!) is bad burst. Okay. In that case, Carnage, Rage, Concealment, Lightning and AP all have bad burst, got it. Oh, for the days of old Rollbang, where the burst was actually acceptable (maybe) at 13k dps.

[MiaRB]

No, that was all changes for 3.0. Now, please, tell me, in 2.X, where did Project lose damage? From 1.7 to 2.0 doesn't count, since that's not in 2.X, that was a different expansion.

 

Also, let me get this straight: 9k burst dps for 4.5 seconds (40k damage!!) is bad burst. Okay. In that case, Carnage, Rage, Concealment, Lightning and AP all have bad burst, got it. Oh, for the days of old Rollbang, where the burst was actually acceptable (maybe) at 13k dps.

 

you are not doing 40k damage in 4.5 seconds.

[maverickmatt]

you are not doing 40k damage in 4.5 seconds.

 

You can. Still.

 

 

Deception was robbed of it's sole claim, but at times you can still put out enough damage to 3 shot someone (which is ~40k in 4.5 seconds).

 

Is it gear of the opponent? Probably. Only time will tell what to expect consistently from Deception now.

[MiaRB]

You can. Still.

 

 

Deception was robbed of it's sole claim, but at times you can still put out enough damage to 3 shot someone (which is ~40k in 4.5 seconds).

 

Is it gear of the opponent? Probably. Only time will tell what to expect consistently from Deception now.

 

maybe vs a PVEer in open world, but not in 60 WZs and def not in rated.

[Evolixe]

Unless you crit everything on a Hatred/Serenity Sin/Shadow.. you aren't going to do 40k damage in 4,5 seconds.

 

Discharge is 11k in max gear, Ball (plus secondary Ball) both critting is about 13k damage and Maul is about the same. That is 37k damage in 4,5 seconds under IDEAL circumstances. It will not happen more often than once in a blue moon.

 

And now I sugarcoated things because really those things don't hit that hard on anything but said class/spec combo without active defenses..

[Aelanis]

Unless you crit everything on a Hatred/Serenity Sin/Shadow.. you aren't going to do 40k damage in 4,5 seconds.

 

Discharge is 11k in max gear, Ball (plus secondary Ball) both critting is about 13k damage and Maul is about the same. That is 37k damage in 4,5 seconds under IDEAL circumstances. It will not happen more often than once in a blue moon.

 

And now I sugarcoated things because really those things don't hit that hard on anything but said class/spec combo without active defenses..

 

...I can still burst 9k dps over 3 globals in my 180/186 PvE gear at level 60 against silver mobs...

 

Quoted myself for some clarity. The third hit wasn't Maul, it was Assassinate, and I had my relics up the whole time..

[Evolixe]

Maul does more damage with a Dup proc than Assassinate does. Your choice of action makes no sense.

[Aelanis]

Maul does more damage with a Dup proc than Assassinate does. Your choice of action makes no sense.

 

It makes perfect sense when I'm not using a tank companion against an enemy I just dealt ~20k damage to. Because, you know, you need to be behind someone to Shadow Strike them, and 20k damage in 2 globals tends to draw aggro.