Dual Spec is coming - but will it 'solve everything'?

[sotaka]

Now, bare with me for a second, there will be a TL;DR, but I feel like I've got a bit of curiousity about this.

 

Many people say the reason they want Dual Spec is because they want to be able to do more than one role. PVP vs. PVE, I can understand this completely - I think that having one optimized spec for both is GREAT. Being able to fully enjoy all aspects of a game is truly a great thing, and it's even better for the developers, as we get to experience more of the content that they worked so hard to provide us.

 

But one of the things I don't understand 100% is if this will solve PVE problems or not.

 

Now, first, there will be references to Rift here. I feel this game had the best Multi-Spec system with the Soul system, so it is the one I will reference. I understand WoW had the system as well, and if another one came before that, I don't know and you have my appologies for being unable to reference it.

 

In rift, the issue with Dual Spec became that each class had it's own armor class - but the Dual-Spec system allowed someone who was on, Say, Rogue - to roll on all Rogue based gear. That meant DPS, Support, as well as Tank gear. In raids, this doesn't matter - it's more controlled. But in groups, it is free for all and everyone will either agree at the start, not invite eachother because of 'Gear Paranoia', or they will bicker in party when they lose the lot on the item.

 

I've already seen some of this in this game. There are people who ask me, 'What's wrong, don't want another bounty hunter rolling on your items?'

 

This is for Black Talon at level 16. I was running it because I like seeing how the different classes interact. Did you know that the order for destroying the door for the final boss, as far as I have seen, is : Sith Inquisitor > Agent > Bounty Hunter? As far as I could tell. This sort of thing is -amazing- to me, and hopefully it also reflects in advanced classes later on.

 

So there's the first issue. While I do feel many stats are streamlined for the purpose of single-class use and there's not much overlay between classes (Thank you god, BioWare.), I do feel there are times where a DPS might want to roll on Tank gear with DPS, or vice-versa. It becomes a game where we feel we need to deck out two seperate specs, and people will either put in the time - or they will turn on one another in order to complete their goal.

 

TL;DR For Part 1: The first problem is lootwhores, which is easily remedied by people working together as an efficient team. This is inconsequential, but is a slightly lesser evil to be brought in. On to the main point -

 

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE GET DUAL SPEC?

 

If Rift has taught me anything, it's that just because a multiple-spec system exists, does not necessarily mean that people will opt to choose to play more Tank or Healer specs because they are now available. An Agent Sniper will still be regulated to just have two DPS specs, for example. His first, his standard one, maybe a single-player for questing and being alone, and his second for either PVP, or PVE groups or even some other situational one.

 

In the Sniper's case, they won't be able to spec Tank or Heals. They won't be able to help alleviate the problem! This is a similar case with the Marauder. That's two groups of classes of 8 that will not benefit from this portion.

 

Now, beyond that, we see things like PowerTech Bounty Hunters, who can Tank/DPS, MErcenary Bounty Hunters, who can Heal/DPS, Sith Juggernauts as Tank/DPS, Sith Inquisitor Assassins with Tank/DPS, etc...

 

But who's to say they will use that second tree as a tree for doing Tanking, Healing, or anything else?

 

They may well use that tree for PVP. Or to allow them to increase their solo efficiency. This is where my concern comes in when I see many people saying that the Dual Spec is a magical Panacea for the lack of Tanks/Healers. It isn't, because even in Rift, you still had to wait in line for periods of time because NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO TANK/HEAL! This is why the formula of multiple DPS works so well - the DPS-enjoyers are a vocal majority over the minority which enjoys Healing and tanking!

 

Now, I'm not saying that Dual Spec should never be added. But I'm saying, if we want to see a true remedy to the issue that many people have, we're going to have to look beyond the possibility of dual spec. We need to find the true reason why people feel Tanking is less fun than DPS'ing. Is it the numbers? Is it something about power? Is it the feeling of being able to solo efficiently? Is there just something mentally wrong with those of us who enjoy healing and tanking?

 

TL;DR: Tanking and Healing won't always be chosen as the Dual-Spec. This means even with the system added, while it will surely alleviate the problem SLIGHTLY, it won't garuntee a fix. We need to find a way to really alleviate the problem, instead of a temporary band-aid!

 

What do I propose we do ?

 

The first thing you want to do, is remember that the players behind the monitor are human. If you have a tank who is doing a terrible job, don't say 'You're a jack***', kick him from the party, then invite Elite Guild Tank. That will shatter their goodwill and cause them to do exactly what you think you want - to reroll DPS since they couldn't handle the responsibility.

 

We need to treat our fellow players BETTER. MMO's have created a stigma that dumps all the responsibility onto the Tanks and Healers. We're slowly bringing DPS back into line with the responsibility, but often a good tank/healer can carry a group. We need to remember to show eachother decent human respect if we want to see more tanks, be patient, and be willing to TEACH eachother as a REAL COMMUNITY if we want to help alleviate the problem.

[JarenVestrit]

I've looked in the Developer Tracker. Where do you see that they're adding Dual-Spec?

[sotaka]

I've looked in the Developer Tracker. Where do you see that they're adding Dual-Spec?

 

Ah, I think there was another post on this subject about how one of hte Dev's said they want it add it in 'relatively soon after the release', it was in another topic though. I will search for it for you, give me a few minutes and I will edit-in the correct link to the bottom of this post.

 

EDIT: See the guy below me. :3 <3

Edited December 25, 2011 by sotaka

[Virance]

I've looked in the Developer Tracker. Where do you see that they're adding Dual-Spec?

 

It's been stated in several interviews that they want to have it in-game 'soon after launch.'

 

There is also at least one confirmation on the official page:

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916

 

Q: Since it has been clearly stated that there will not be dual specs for characters in the game, can you explain your philosophy behind the skill trees and how you are taking into account players that want to be able to play PvP and PvE content on the same character? - illumineart

 

A: Dual Speccing is something we want to add soon after launch. Also, features like Guard, PvP Taunt, Resolve, etc. work to narrow the gap between PvP and PvE specialized skills (i.e. a +Block skill would be helpful in both PvE and PvP).

[JarenVestrit]

It's been stated in several interviews that they want to have it in-game 'soon after launch.'

 

There is also at least one confirmation on the official page:

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916

 

Thanks for the link!

[pmaura]

rifts system is HORRID. It made everyone the same. you collect all the sould you do the optimal build for dps tank and heal . It was just dull, no one was unique. Just Roll another toon.

 

It also will force me to play other ways, I dont like playing a healer, but now becuase I am a merc its going to be required, becuase people are going say just dual spec.

[sotaka]

rifts system is HORRID. It made everyone the same. you collect all the sould you do the optimal build for dps tank and heal . It was just dull, no one was unique. Just Roll another toon.

 

It also will force me to play other ways, I dont like playing a healer, but now becuase I am a merc its going to be required, becuase people are going say just dual spec.

 

Nothing requires you to dualspec a healer. It's your money, and their party. If you're not willing to spec healer, then you an be booted - just as they can get someone else to fill your role/the healer's role. No one should be required to play what they do not want to play.

 

However; for Rift's system, it was actually a good concept and a lot of fun. It allowed me to play all the roles I wanted to as my Rogue, and I had a lot of fun with it. The issue always came in with equipment for me, however - especially gear that required Marks. Very painful.

[bobofatt]

Nothing requires you to dualspec a healer. It's your money, and their party. If you're not willing to spec healer, then you an be booted - just as they can get someone else to fill your role/the healer's role. No one should be required to play what they do not want to play.

 

However; for Rift's system, it was actually a good concept and a lot of fun. It allowed me to play all the roles I wanted to as my Rogue, and I had a lot of fun with it. The issue always came in with equipment for me, however - especially gear that required Marks. Very painful.

 

Yeah I liked rift system as well. I never bought the game though. I only played in the beta.

 

It was really cool to mix and match talent trees like necromancer/healer.

[Virance]

FWIW in the 'other' game many, many top players who are capable of dual-spec'ing two different roles instead opt to dual-spec two different variants of a single role to be optimal for different encounters. And unless you are on the absolute bleeding edge of content, the far more common/popular option is to just have a 'pve' and a 'pvp' spec.

[Flyjedi]

Dual spec is a very handy thing to have. Some people such as myself do we want to be able to heal and/or tank as well as perform a DPS role for other purposes. It doesn't change anything for anyone as far as being a disadvantage. If you don't like it. don't use it. How does it make a difference to you? It doesn't.

 

Talent specs themselves need to be changed. It doesn't matter how varied they are, there is ALWAYS a cookie cutter spec everyone uses, with maybe a couple different points you can play around with based on preference. Oddly enough, EQ had it right over 10 years ago. Alternate Advancement (AA) was the smartest thing I've seen to date as far as rewarding people for actually progressing their characters at max level. Some people don't want to raid, can't raid, or can't raid when they want. With AA, you could be the same level as another player and still be MUCH better based on the time you put into you character, even if the other person had better gear. It took months and months to max out your AA abilities, and it gives you a real sense of accomplishment. I can't believe the "big" MMOs haven't done something like the AA in EQ. It would really give people more to work on at max level other than raiding and farming credits.

 

--Sagorn

[Zierk]

Dual spec is a very handy thing to have. Some people such as myself do we want to be able to heal and/or tank as well as perform a DPS role for other purposes. It doesn't change anything for anyone as far as being a disadvantage. If you don't like it. don't use it. How does it make a difference to you? It doesn't.

 

Talent specs themselves need to be changed. It doesn't matter how varied they are, there is ALWAYS a cookie cutter spec everyone uses, with maybe a couple different points you can play around with based on preference. Oddly enough, EQ had it right over 10 years ago. Alternate Advancement (AA) was the smartest thing I've seen to date as far as rewarding people for actually progressing their characters at max level. Some people don't want to raid, can't raid, or can't raid when they want. With AA, you could be the same level as another player and still be MUCH better based on the time you put into you character, even if the other person had better gear. It took months and months to max out your AA abilities, and it gives you a real sense of accomplishment. I can't believe the "big" MMOs haven't done something like the AA in EQ. It would really give people more to work on at max level other than raiding and farming credits.

 

--Sagorn

 

 

Before FFXI raised their level cap from 75 they had the merit points Aa system when you could gain EXP at max level then spend it for various stats or ability upgrades. Either way I agree with your statement about AA. It also allows players to develop their characters further outside of talents.

[sotaka]

Dual spec is a very handy thing to have. Some people such as myself do we want to be able to heal and/or tank as well as perform a DPS role for other purposes. It doesn't change anything for anyone as far as being a disadvantage. If you don't like it. don't use it. How does it make a difference to you? It doesn't.

 

This topic is not about using/not using the Dual Spec system. Please remain on point - it is about the fact that while it is useful and many people will use it (As I stated), it will not be the cure-all that people seek. I respect that many people will use it to be both DPS/Tank or Heals/DPS, etc. However, As another poster said -

 

FWIW in the 'other' game many, many top players who are capable of dual-spec'ing two different roles instead opt to dual-spec two different variants of a single role to be optimal for different encounters. And unless you are on the absolute bleeding edge of content, the far more common/popular option is to just have a 'pve' and a 'pvp' spec.

 

This! A hundred times, THIS! Many people will have 1 PVE spec, then 1 PVP spec. This is the optimization of the usage of the Dual-Spec system for one who enjoys both.

 

Talent specs themselves need to be changed. It doesn't matter how varied they are, there is ALWAYS a cookie cutter spec everyone uses, with maybe a couple different points you can play around with based on preference. Oddly enough, EQ had it right over 10 years ago. Alternate Advancement (AA) was the smartest thing I've seen to date as far as rewarding people for actually progressing their characters at max level. Some people don't want to raid, can't raid, or can't raid when they want. With AA, you could be the same level as another player and still be MUCH better based on the time you put into you character, even if the other person had better gear. It took months and months to max out your AA abilities, and it gives you a real sense of accomplishment. I can't believe the "big" MMOs haven't done something like the AA in EQ. It would really give people more to work on at max level other than raiding and farming credits.

 

--Sagorn

 

As far as AA goes, I can't really comment on that. It sounds lovely, but it doesn't seem like it'd fit in well here. It means all advancement comes in at end-game, and thus the progression TO endgame suffers. I can only feel that would hurt the game overall, because people will become bored grinding on the way there.

 

 

EDIT-IN:

Before FFXI raised their level cap from 75 they had the merit points Aa system when you could gain EXP at max level then spend it for various stats or ability upgrades. Either way I agree with your statement about AA. It also allows players to develop their characters further outside of talents.

 

Ah-HAH! Now you're right there - FFXI had a great system in Merit points. It suffered from the fact that you had to pretty much MeritParty to continue the advancement, and often times people were min/maxers about these parties (Not many wanted a thief, required bard, RDM preferred, Warrior Sub Ninja preferrred.)

 

FFXI also had an interesting way of advancing. Regular with skills learned on the way, but also the diversity added via subjobs. It only fell prey to min/maxers, which hurt it, but helped in terms of efficently leveling.

Edited December 25, 2011 by sotaka

[Flyjedi]

AA in EQ didn't have anything to do with actual progression to max level. It just gave you something to work towards AT max level. For someone who doesn't raid or pvp, what do you at level <insert max level here>? Start another character.. ok. What happens when you have one of every class? Farm credits/gold/plat etc.. That gets sort of old.

 

AA points gave you the opportunity to give you a stronger character based on how much you actually worked on it. You can probably get a character to max level in SWTOR in a week, same as that other unknown game, WoW. I know this is off topic from the OP, but I did want to comment about it.

[kasanth]

It always starts out "we want to be able to do one roll for PvE and one for PvP".

What it turns into very quickly is "I use both specs for PvE. So we need 3 specs" when that wasnt what dual specs was even meant for.

 

If they have dual specs I hope they make it so the second one is only available in

warfronts and comes up automaticly when you enter one.

Or just make it very clear the answer is NO when the "we need 3 specs" starts showing up.

Edited December 25, 2011 by kasanth

[Jayded]

Itll effect me as a BH tank who has no intrest in DPS or Healing as soon as a DPS Merc rolls need on a rare tank item because once in a blue moon he'll tank for the heck of it. Granted most people arent tools bu there are enough in game as is... Already had one DPS roll need on gloves that fell of the tusken boss in Blood and Sand quest on Tatooine after we wiped several times because of fail dps face rolling...

 

I needed it for my companion tank... Now itll also be "I needed it for my off spec".

[sotaka]

Itll effect me as a BH tank who has no intrest in DPS or Healing as soon as a DPS Merc rolls need on a rare tank item because once in a blue moon he'll tank for the heck of it. Granted most people arent tools bu there are enough in game as is... Already had one DPS roll need on gloves that fell of the tusken boss in Blood and Sand quest on Tatooine after we wiped several times because of fail dps face rolling...

 

I needed it for my companion tank... Now itll also be "I needed it for my off spec".

 

This is my concern stated at TL;DR 1. This is remedied by people working together and discussing drops before hand. I think this game will require it more, because many don't REALISE the poor etiquette that comes of rolling Need for something YOU don't use. Your companion is NOT you.

[StingingVelvet]

I play DPS because its easiest for solo play, which is what I do 95% of the time. Dual-spec would allow me to switch to healer for group play, which would be nice. That said, as a sniper it wouldn't really help me.

[Sardoni]

Your class regardless of spec has 1 primary spec and 1 armor type.

 

Light armor willpower goes to SI/JC

Heavy armor with Aim goes to BH/Trooper

Heavy armor with Str goes to Guardian/Juggernaut

Medium armor with cunning goes to IA/Smugg

Medium armor with Str goes to Knight/Marauder

 

Whether your spec'd for heals, dps, or tanking your primary stat doesn't change... so I guess I don't understand your concern. My DPS gear will be the same as my healing gear with the possible exception of maybe having... no... well... maybe slight obvious differences of shield rating on light armor not every going to an SI... the exception is so minimal it shouldn't set the rule.

 

Lootwhoring shouldn't be an issue because it's not like you have to worry about a marauder rolling on a cunning gear stat?

 

I'm confused overall. Duel spec is a modern convenience available in modern MMOs. If you've chosen a DPS only class then you can have two types of DPS o.o?

 

I don't see the problem with this want. Esp when all I see in general chat is "Need healer for X... need tank for Y"... mainly because it's easier to level dps and then flip into your holy trinity role, but that's just my humble opinion.

[Taskcommnda]

Big difference between it is coming and "we want to add it".

[miami_heatfan]

What I think would be cool... is if they could add in a drop from each boss that benefits companions...that only companions could wear. That way you wouldn't lose out your gear to companion rolls [pretty much what they are] and people can still gear out their companions.

 

I play a Consular, so lets say this happens....

 

Heavy chest piece with aim drops from the companion roll, I could roll for it and give it to Qyzen.

[say I lose the roll]

Another heavy chest with aim drops, and I cannot roll on it at all because it would not be equip-able to my companion and I couldn't wear it.

 

So IMO I think that 2 drops per boss [3 if they already drop 2] one for players and one for random companions, would help some of the loot problems.

 

As for the needing for OS.... I could only wish there was a system that was in the game that could detect what role you are playing and say a tanking chest drops... the need button could be locked out to all dps'ers until after the tank rolls. If the tank rolls anything other than need, then the dps could roll need on the item. I can dream can't I?

[sotaka]

its people like the op that ruin games.

 

Trollific post, disregarded as it neither adds anything to the conversation nor does it present a valid point. Keep it civil.

 

Your class regardless of spec has 1 primary spec and 1 armor type.

 

Light armor willpower goes to SI/JC

Heavy armor with Aim goes to BH/Trooper

Heavy armor with Str goes to Guardian/Juggernaut

Medium armor with cunning goes to IA/Smugg

Medium armor with Str goes to Knight/Marauder

 

Whether your spec'd for heals, dps, or tanking your primary stat doesn't change... so I guess I don't understand your concern. My DPS gear will be the same as my healing gear with the possible exception of maybe having... no... well... maybe slight obvious differences of shield rating on light armor not every going to an SI... the exception is so minimal it shouldn't set the rule.

 

Lootwhoring shouldn't be an issue because it's not like you have to worry about a marauder rolling on a cunning gear stat?

 

I'm confused overall. Duel spec is a modern convenience available in modern MMOs. If you've chosen a DPS only class then you can have two types of DPS o.o?

 

I don't see the problem with this want. Esp when all I see in general chat is "Need healer for X... need tank for Y"... mainly because it's easier to level dps and then flip into your holy trinity role, but that's just my humble opinion.

 

I've never said I have a problem with Dual-Spec. I said I respect it, but I have concerns on the ground that I don't think it will solve the problems that everyone sees, such as the last one you mentioned. I believe it is possible it will lighten such a load, but to completely remove the problem, we HAVE to do something else.

 

As for the stats, well, I think you're right, I've noticed that as well, but I've also noticed some gear - such as off-hand shield generators, having stats that prefer DPS (Higher Aim than Endurance) or Tanking (Having higher Endurance over Aim.) This is a very minor thing at my level, but I was curious if more gear would 'branch' like this later on, thus the reason for my statements.

 

It'd be like a tanking Paladin vs. Healing Palading in WoW. The gear class is the same, and many of the stats are the same, but there are certain key differences between the two.

 

Anyways, if you're right about the differences being minimal enough not to be a problem, then I am perfectly not-concerned anymore. That creates less problems to have to mitigate later on.

 

Big difference between it is coming and "we want to add it".

 

Well, this is true, but I think it's a good sign that it WILL be added. Regardless, this is mildly off-point and doesn't really address any of the other issues... Any thoughts on the other points?

 

What I think would be cool... is if they could add in a drop from each boss that benefits companions...that only companions could wear. That way you wouldn't lose out your gear to companion rolls [pretty much what they are] and people can still gear out their companions.

 

I play a Consular, so lets say this happens....

 

Heavy chest piece with aim drops from the companion roll, I could roll for it and give it to Qyzen.

[say I lose the roll]

Another heavy chest with aim drops, and I cannot roll on it at all because it would not be equip-able to my companion and I couldn't wear it.

 

So IMO I think that 2 drops per boss [3 if they already drop 2] one for players and one for random companions, would help some of the loot problems.

 

As for the needing for OS.... I could only wish there was a system that was in the game that could detect what role you are playing and say a tanking chest drops... the need button could be locked out to all dps'ers until after the tank rolls. If the tank rolls anything other than need, then the dps could roll need on the item. I can dream can't I?

 

Other games have such a system, but as someone said earlier - because the stats are pretty uniform for your class, it's very easy not to need such a method. It's a nice thing they've done, and I do approve, though if the stats 'branch' more later on, then your concern stated will become the concern I already mentioned.

 

For the Companion armor, that is a fabulous idea and I hope the Devs take such a thing to heart! It would allow us to advance not only ourselves, but also our favorite NPC's.

[miami_heatfan]

For the Companion armor, that is a fabulous idea and I hope the Devs take such a thing to heart! It would allow us to advance not only ourselves, but also our favorite NPC's.

 

Yes... Maybe I shall find somewhere to post it... is there a suggestion forum?

[sotaka]

Yes... Maybe I shall find somewhere to post it... is there a suggestion forum?

 

I do not know. Perhaps the customer support forums?

[Bating]

How people are so ignorant is beyond me. Dual spec is a portable class trainer that makes the respecc free if you spec to a specific spec.

 

It will do nothing except help out. I can still respecc to exactly the thing i want, its just, it takes time and is costly (ive respecced some during levels as a sage to try healing as well as pvp specs, im now at 50 k credits if i want to respecc at 40, and even at 40 thats a lot). Im now leveling as 50% skill points in healing and 50% skill points in damage since i cant afford to respecc (want to be able to buy the 110% mount at 50).

 

The only one opposing this idea are those who want people to pay money and time to have more fun and diversity with your character, something i cant even discuss since i cant see how anyone would feel this way. Those who do must be sith, only way i can see it....

[sotaka]

How people are so ignorant is beyond me. Dual spec is a portable class trainer that makes the respecc free if you spec to a specific spec.

 

It will do nothing except help out. I can still respecc to exactly the thing i want, its just, it takes time and is costly (ive respecced some during levels as a sage to try healing as well as pvp specs, im now at 50 k credits if i want to respecc at 40, and even at 40 thats a lot). Im now leveling as 50% skill points in healing and 50% skill points in damage since i cant afford to respecc (want to be able to buy the 110% mount at 50).

 

The only one opposing this idea are those who want people to pay money and time to have more fun and diversity with your character, something i cant even discuss since i cant see how anyone would feel this way. Those who do must be sith, only way i can see it....

 

First off, please do not call people Ignorant, it is insulting. I will not insult your intelligence if you sit and speak with me in a civil manner, that is all.

 

Again, I never said the Dual Spec system would NOT help, I have merely said that it -IS NOT- a Cure-All for the issues stated. Many will NOT go healer/tank just because 'now they are able to', wheather for reasons of not wanting to play the class, or because their class DOES NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY to play it.

 

As for your third paragraph, there are those who feel differently about it, and I understand their sentiments as well. They want 'diversity', and an absorbant fee causes you to be locked into your class. It is a forced diversity, and although archaic, is possibly effective.

 

Further beyond that, many believe you need to play your class to fully understand it... an acceptable point.

 

I wish you the best in getting your 110% mount, I really do.