gibmachine Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Disclaimer - I just finished Rishi few minutes ago. I haven't stepped foot on Yavin-4 so there might be something explained there but right now, this struck me at incredibly far-fetched. During Makeb, Darth Marr claims that Emperor is dead. He's pretty certain about it even though he notes that even if somehow he is alive, he isn't in shape to rule. Fast forward to Rishi, suddenly he is perfectly aware that Emperor isn't dead after all and it sounds like he knew it right from the start. What's more, he actually knows what is the Emperor's plan. Hell, he's so sure of it that our character automatically is convinced (which sits wrong with my Warrior and I'd rather be convinced when the Emperor actually does reveal his plan, not by some unexplained Deux Ex Machina). So how does he know all that? Have I missed something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) Thread on the subject here already. Regardless, Marr claims back then that In other words, he's apparently unsure. The key part is that, regardless of the Emperor's condition, his absence favors Marr's agenda. As he says earlier: As to how he knew, I am fairly sure Marr knew already what the Emperor planned. He even alludes to this during Makeb. Plus, unlike Ravage, you should consider the possibility that Darth Marr was also fully aware that Baras could never be the Voice of the Emperor, yet he played along. Wonder why. EDIT: The sequence I was referring to, where Marr alludes to knowing far more than he initially implies: Edited December 5, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 And even if he didn't know by then, Theron Shan revealed Revan's plans to a bunch of people, and at least Satele Shan knew of the Emperor's plans. So after the Battle of Rishi is the absolute latest he would have figured out. But as Wicked says, he most likely knew well before then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 And even if he didn't know by then, Theron Shan revealed Revan's plans to a bunch of people, and at least Satele Shan knew of the Emperor's plans. So after the Battle of Rishi is the absolute latest he would have figured out. But as Wicked says, he most likely knew well before then. I have a theory that Marr was an ally to Baras, when the latter tried to be proclaimed as the new Voice of the Emperor. I find it likely that Baras was the one who actually revealed to Marr what the Emperor planned, around the time he trapped the True Voice on Voss. Even if Baras was to rule the Empire as the new Voice, it would certainly be preferable to having the Emperor devour everyone. Plus, Marr had been in front of the Voice of the Emperor at least on ONE occasion... Wouldn't he be able to recognize the Voice, just from the sound of it? After all... Although the audible voice never changes, the physical individual who does the speaking has assumed many forms–various accounts describe the Emperor’s Voice as anyone from a young human female to an elderly full-blooded Sith male. Baras still sounded like, well, Baras. BTW...What is it with the writing for this expansion? People are now referred to as "food"? I found the use of such term so underwhelming to be honest, especially considered they went to great lengths to avoid that word usage for the Vanilla game. Like the Emperor wasn't Gravemind-like enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 I have no idea why people are being called food now. Then again, in a world where Light Revan became one with the Force and Dark Revan retained his physical body, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) I have no idea why people are being called food now. Then again, in a world where Light Revan became one with the Force and Dark Revan retained his physical body, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised I felt that bit alone was like Bioware giving a free pass to everyone who preaches the virtues of LS-Revan. They effectively made the character akin to Jekyll and Hyde in a manner far worse that I could ever imagine; Such a waste IMHO. Edited December 6, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 I felt that bit alone was like Bioware giving a free pass to everyone who preaches the virtues of LS-Revan. They effectively made the character akin to Jekyll and Hyde in a manner far worse that I could ever imagine; Such a waste IMHO. I agree, I'd rather regular Revan be a complex character than two stereotypical ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) I agree, I'd rather regular Revan be a complex character than two stereotypical ones. Indeed. Now in future conversations, instead of trying to delve into whatever complexity the character may have, it will be bode down to the literal duality of it. Example:LS-Revan redeemed Bastila, destroyed the Star Forge and defeated Malak; DS-Revan invaded Republic space and butchered millions in the process. It was all the latter's doing, NEVER the former obviously. Dumb, dumb, dumb IMHO. Ohhh well, at least the Exile remains untouched for the most part. Hopefully. Edited December 6, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) Indeed. Now in future conversations, instead of trying to delve into whatever complexity the character may have, it will be bode down to the literal duality of it. Example:LS-Revan redeemed Bastila, destroyed the Star Forge and defeated Malak; DS-Revan invaded Republic space and butchered millions in the process. It was all the latter's doing, NEVER the former obviously. Dumb, dumb, dumb IMHO. Ohhh well, at least the Exile remains untouched for the most part. Hopefully. What if, what helped the Republic free Revan, was only Light Meetra Surik? Dun dun dun... EDIT: The only literal redeeming character trait of Dark Revan is that he was trying to accomplish something for the greater good this time around. Edited December 6, 2014 by Darkelefantos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 What if, what helped the Republic free Revan, was only Light Meetra Surik? Dun dun dun... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Why would you even say such a thing? I'll have nightmares now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Why would you even say such a thing? I'll have nightmares now. Yeah, retrospectively, not the best idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibmachine Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) Damn, the thread sure derailed. Fair enough that Republic had sources to confirm Emperor's plan. The Empire didn't. The only one who had legitimate knowledge was Jadus and even this is only vague ("The Emperor is... preoccupied") unless the player joins him. Marr jumps out of nowhere with his freshly acquired knowledge (and it wasn't the Republic who supplied him the info either as the meeting on Rishi is the first legitimate meeting he had with Satele) and the only thing which is "confirmed" is that he "learned Emperor's plans only recently". Furthermore, in one of the choices as SW, Marr claims that "we both know that The Emperor isn't what he used to be". Well guess what, I don't. The only thing I know is that Hand is compromised and there were invisible droids spying on me, spitting creepy text lines. And you're not even supposed to know that unless Vowrawn passed you the info about it before running for his life. So we have Marr being fully aware that Emperor is alive, knowing his plans and claiming that Wrath also knows his plans with absolutely nothing to back up his claims. I say to his face that I'm the Wrath and I'll not let him touch my boss and he tells me to drop the act because I know better? And I actually believe him even though he gives me grand total of 0 evidence? Don't get me wrong, I really like the story of this expansion (although "let's drop the conflict and focus on greater good" does get old - good thing they spiced it up with Marr and Satele going practically renegade) but this is the thing I have to call bullsh*t on. There is simply no reasonable explanation beyond whatever theories we can come up with. Edited December 6, 2014 by gibmachine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) The Empire didn't. This is untrue. Darth Baras knew. Presumably decades before Jadus ever did. Better yet, Baras' knowing is not even dependent on player choice, unlike what happens with Jadus. You just need to connect the dots. Also, Marr ALWAYS knew that the Emperor was alive and he even alludes to this during Makeb. His goal was that the Emperor would not interfere in his plans to reforge the Empire under a new banner. One that wasn't subservient to the whims of an unseen Emperor or if you prefer, absentee landlord. Where did I hear that one before, I wonder? Also, did you even finish the SoR expansion? You do realize that the Emperor claims the Wrath is still special to him and as such, it will kill it last right? How does that leave any room for interpretation, as to why you should believe Marr's claims or not? Edited December 6, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibmachine Posted December 6, 2014 Author Share Posted December 6, 2014 Also, did you even finish the SoR expansion? You do realize that the Emperor claims the Wrath is still special to him and as such, it will kill it last right? How does that leave any room for interpretation, as to why you should believe Marr's claims or not? I did, yes (thanks Pierce and your taunt). There is no doubt when the Emperor says it out loud but at the end of Rishi, SW was still oblivious as the only thing that could allude to Emperor's plans were some cryptic lines coming from the spy droids and even going with one of the choice during convo with Servant One, SW doesn't learn anything. So presumably SW is in the dark. Then comes Marr, says that the Emperor want to destroy everything and SW instantly believes him. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 (edited) I did, yes (thanks Pierce and your taunt). There is no doubt when the Emperor says it out loud but at the end of Rishi, SW was still oblivious as the only thing that could allude to Emperor's plans were some cryptic lines coming from the spy droids and even going with one of the choice during convo with Servant One, SW doesn't learn anything. So presumably SW is in the dark. Then comes Marr, says that the Emperor want to destroy everything and SW instantly believes him. Why? Your Warrior is in the dark as much as you want it to be. line for example doesn't exactly leave much room for interpretation as to what the Emperor is. Same with , or even . If your Warrior can't detect a pattern there, then I guess he or she is a bit of a dumb critter. As suggested earlier, connect the dots. Also, he says that at the end of Yavin 4, not Rishi. Edited December 6, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) If you listen to the droids during the SW class mission on Rishi, for even an instant, and you pay attention to the way Vowrawn behaves and what he did, you should be inclined to believe Marr. And even then, you go to defeat Revan, the Emperor is an afterthought. Him being evil becomes obvious the moment you meat Commander Crazy on Yavin. Edited December 7, 2014 by Darkelefantos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) If you listen to the droids during the SW class mission on Rishi, for even an instant, and you pay attention to the way Vowrawn behaves and what he did, you should be inclined to believe Marr. And even then, you go to defeat Revan, the Emperor is an afterthought. Him being evil becomes obvious the moment you meat Commander Crazy on Yavin. Not to mention this intro for the SW. If that's not a definitive hint, combined with the aforementioned stuff, I dunno what is. Edited December 7, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravager Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) I very much enjoyed the expansion's story, but this moment destroys me. There is so much potential to be had that was not utilized regarding the Emperor's current state and plans that did not pan out at all. It infuriates me that they would leave such an important revelation off-screen for Marr, another important revelation off-screen for Satele, and then let the scene where all of this plays out rely on assumptions of the player's knowledge. The scene (both Imperial and Republic) starts off great, discussing the accord, and then out of nowhere Satele/Theron announces that the last of the Emperor's "spark" is alive, and Marr discusses the Emperor's plans for the galaxy. A few questions are immediately raised: How does the Republic know the Emperor lives?When did Marr discover the Emperor's plans and turn against him? The importance of these two questions cannot be understated for the story's impact--not all Republic classes even know the Emperor's plan, let alone that he lives. The Chancellor announced publicly that the Emperor was killed, and was something of importance that only the Wrath knew he lived because the rest of the Empire, Marr included, write him off as being insignificant now. Likewise, the Empire doesn't know his plans. If they did, they would be like how Marr is now, and vehemently oppose him. As a Republic character (and even most Imperial characters), we learn that the Emperor lives from Theron or Satele, respectively, nonchalantly revealing his survival. This is the same man who was celebrated by Satele as having been killed, and learning he is alive should be a major blow for her and every player character. Similarly, there should be some kind of response from the Empire on this subject. Instead, the game assumes that the player has heard from his Sith Warrior friends that the Emperor is alive and the scene speaks of his survival as if we knew that going into this conversation, giving us the bare minimum explanation of how Satele gathered this information from Marr (Imperial)/Theron (Republic) without any of the emotional content. Then we have the question of Marr and the Emperor's plans. Firstly, while the game decides to tell us that Marr gave Satele knowledge of the Emperor's survival, it doesn't give us any explanation of where he got it. Furthermore, knowledge of Vitiate's plans is basically a secret to everyone in the Empire up to this point sans a few who have not revealed them to the wider Empire, as far as the player character is concerned. So, in this scene, we learn the divine leader of the Empire has now been revealed to plan on wiping all life from the face of the galaxy, and the game makes no attempt at explaining how the Empire learned of his survival, nor the gravity of its importance to how the Empire will perceive its almighty leader. We are instead given Marr nonchalantly stating that the Emperor must be killed because we "both know" he's not the same as he once was. We have an investigate option, which then assumes the player knew the Emperor lived all along ("You told them the truth about the Emperor [that my character didn't know about until you just said it]?"). In essence, the game once again assumes that we knew this information and leaves the most interesting content of the revelation off-screen. Sure, we know the Emperor lived from the Warrior and his plans from the Knight, but we as an audience want to see Marr and our character learn for themselves that is realistic to the circumstances the game has set up over 57 levels! This is a recurring problem in the game. The plots are sometimes so complicated that they pack a single conversation with tons of exposition. It's enough that this is the first time Yavin is brought up and that Revan plans to revive the Emperor into corporeal form, but now we are adding exposition about where Marr learned of the Emperor's plans, how the Republic learned Vitiate survived, and how the characters respond to this. It's all so quick that these story beats, which all should have warranted cutscenes for themselves, give off no emotional impact for us as an audience and just barely enough exposition to even make sense. It felt like they added in that Marr knew of the Emperor's plans because for the plot to work they needed Marr to support destroying the Emperor. It makes me sad. I don't think complex plots are the problem, either: I think it's a problem of many cutscenes acting as ways to get to the next major story beat, so the only meaningful ones come towards the end when there is no where left to go. Most cutscenes in the game are filled with exposition to make the circumstances of the coming mission seem plausible, and kind of leave out the emotional content until the finale or Flashpoint. On the conversation regarding the Warrior: of course there are clues hidden around the game, and it 'could' make sense that the Warrior figured it out off-screen and that Marr 'could' have known the Emperor's plans from Baras or Vowrawn, but not only is that highly convoluted (the theory that Marr was in on Baras' plans, while interesting, holds no water except for the fact that Baras asked for his aid first, which could be interpreted in a number of different ways) but it also is not interesting to learn these events took place off-screen. Learning the Emperor's plans or his survival should be for every class something beyond simple exposition as it is now. Without framing the Wrath discovering the Emperor's plans, the audience will not connect the dots. Edited December 7, 2014 by Ravager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) Firstly, while the game decides to tell us that Marr gave Satele knowledge of the Emperor's survival, it doesn't give us any explanation of where he got it. It's obvious. He got it from Lana who got it from Theron who got it from Revan while being held captive. And that's not even considering things we might not have seen, e.g. Vowrawn supplying information. Edited December 7, 2014 by Darkelefantos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravager Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) It's obvious. He got it from Lana who got it from Theron who got it from Revan while being held captive. And that's not even considering things we might not have seen, e.g. Vowrawn supplying information. Firstly, no, it's not obvious; not only is that explanation highly convoluted, but it makes no sense. By your logic of Marr being told by Lana who was told by Theron off-screen, we can also surmise that Theron told Satele off-screen, which would defeat the purpose of Marr telling Satele in the first place. There is literally no on-screen evidence that Marr learned of the Emperor's survival, nor his plans, from Theron or Lana before the meeting, so you cannot possibly expect the audience to know where that information came from. Secondly, my point is not that every piece of information should be shown on screen, but rather that something as important as the Emperor's survival should take more time to make an impact. It's similar to Theron and Satele's relationship happening mostly off-screen--why not show that? That's not filler, that is character development. The same goes for the Emperor reveal(s). I think I should perhaps be clearer of what I am trying to say. Yes, of course we could say that it's possible Marr learned of the Emperor's survival from Theron, or Lana, or Baras, or Vowrawn, or any other character, but I am not debating whether it's logical this 'could' have gotten to Marr. It's the story-telling 'technique' of things happening off-screen and being explained in a few words on-screen SWTOR uses all too often that I take issue with. These moments could be so much better if the game actually showed us the revelation of the Emperor's survival and allowed Marr, Satele, and the player character to have some kind of reaction to it. It would make that reveal so much more compelling. I think this thread is aimed less at where Marr received the information as it is surprised at how that the game didn't make a big deal of it, considering how long they have built up these secrets. EDIT: To use another BioWare game as an example: in the first Mass Effect, all information and important action comes on-screen. You learn that the villain, Saren, is holed up on Virmire from the Council after coming back from a mission. Imagine if that scene didn't exist, and instead you came back to the ship only for your crew to already be discussing the mission to Virmire coming up next, and you are expected to know that the mission was happening as you walk in. When you ask who gave this mission, they explain the Council did. That, I believe, is a similar situation to what we are seeing in this SWTOR scene. Information is loosely explained to get you to the next objective, but with no emotional content to make it meaningful, and the lack of information comes from the fact that BioWare assumes every player knows that the Emperor lives/knows his plans from sources outside of their character. I understand the need to allow certain classes to see specific information that's unique to them, but if they are going to change the circumstances from no one knowing the Emperor's plans or his survival to making a mission based around the fact that EVERYONE knows he is alive and plans to consume the galaxy, then they should show it! My rant is over. I still enjoyed it greatly. Edited December 8, 2014 by Ravager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Darth Vowrawn. Pillow talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) On the conversation regarding the Warrior: of course there are clues hidden around the game, and it 'could' make sense that the Warrior figured it out off-screen and that Marr 'could' have known the Emperor's plans from Baras or Vowrawn, but not only is that highly convoluted (the theory that Marr was in on Baras' plans, while interesting, holds no water except for the fact that Baras asked for his aid first, which could be interpreted in a number of different ways) but it also is not interesting to learn these events took place off-screen. And holds no water because you say so? That's rich to say the least. Again, happening off-screen or not is of little to no relevance. The clues are there for us to connect the dots; Whether people participate in that side-game out of their volition is another matter. However, it is clear that a lot of stuff is there for people to peel through, assuming -- yet again -- they want to. If they don't, that's their right; Claiming foul however, a few years later, just because they couldn't be bothered is just for laughs. Learning the Emperor's plans or his survival should be for every class something beyond simple exposition as it is now. No, it shouldn't. Some stuff should be specific for a particular class, to give people a reason to both play and enjoy them ALL. If every single class had access to the same wealth of information, then supposedly having different class stories would be both pointless and a ruse of sorts. Without framing the Wrath discovering the Emperor's plans, the audience will not connect the dots. The Wrath is framed. There are clues literally EVERYWHERE as to what the Emperor is and what he stands for. Unless your Wrath is truly a dumb critter, a blunt instrument as Vowrawn appears to allude, he or she can't miss it. It's impossible. On a side-note, this game is NOT Mass Effect. Every single piece of information you have access to and what not, is shared by taking advantage of your character's PoV. They made that FAIRLY clear early on. No out of body experience similar to the one on ME, where you see Saren and Benezia talking about the showdown on Eden Prime. Edited December 8, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MASOLIZ Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 DOTS are for DoT specs:p so veng could fall in that category I suppose, all this talk makes me wanna lvl my jugg or Mara next:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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