After maxing out my crafting at Level 50, I can tell you its worthless...

[nbittel]

Has anyone considered that maybe you're not meant to be selling gear to the raiders? As has already been pointed out, not everyone wants to raid. Sell your gear to the people who don't want to as again, someone has already pointed out, the largest customer base are casual plays that don't raid regularly.

 

Sell your crafted gear to the people who don't want to raid or don't have the time to do it regularly. I've made a lot of money selling mid level blues on the GTN.

 

The game is also less than a week old, officially. Things will get tuned, fixed, and balanced as time goes on. I encourage all of you to drop your craft so that way when things get fixed I can dictate where I want the market to go since I'll be one of the few left.

[Proxus]

My brain can't repel derp of this magnitude...

 

I love seeing all these rere's ***** at people for wanting raid quality gear without raid mats...

 

It's obvious many of the people in this thread have no clue what is going on and should just stop trolling the crafting forums.

 

Here's the cliff-notes version since it's obvious some people have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever...

 

400 Crafting items = Useless, Even at epic quality.

 

Example: Artifice->Max level Might hilt 22...

 

Belsavis Dailies->Might hilt 23...

 

Crafters don't want raid gear without raiding, they want Gear that isn't dust under the rug after you gain access to late game daily quests...

 

"Why be forced to hardmode flashpoints or Operations to make gear that no one is going to want anyway?"

 

If you could at least RE the daily rewards to gain the schematic it would at least "slightly" make sense but that's not the case.

 

I apologize for bringing some semblance of logic to this thread though... flames inc...

[nbittel]

My brain can't repel derp of this magnitude...

 

I love seeing all these rere's ***** at people for wanting raid quality gear without raid mats...

 

It's obvious many of the people in this thread have no clue what is going on and should just stop trolling the crafting forums.

 

Here's the cliff-notes version since it's obvious some people have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever...

 

400 Crafting items = Useless, Even at epic quality.

 

Example: Artifice->Max level Might hilt 22...

 

Belsavis Dailies->Might hilt 23...

 

Crafters don't want raid gear without raiding, they want Gear that isn't dust under the rug after you gain access to late game daily quests...

 

"Why be forced to hardmode flashpoints or Operations to make gear that no one is going to want anyway?"

 

If you could at least RE the daily rewards to gain the schematic it would at least "slightly" make sense but that's not the case.

 

I apologize for bringing some semblance of logic to this thread though... flames inc...

 

I understand what you're saying but my point is, maybe the raiders and the people who are willing to run the same mission over and over aren't your market? I for one hate running the same daily missions over and over again. Its why I left DC Universe. I am also not a raider, I'll do it but I don't enjoy it enough to do it constantly.

 

People like me are not the minority, they are the majority. They are the ones you should sell gear to. Someone who has hit 50 but does not want to or doesn't have the time to constantly run missions but they have some money to spare. They will buy your crafted gear because it gives them instant access to equipment that is at least comparable to raid gear.

 

How much of a difference are a few points going to make in the long run? I know its a huge deal for the min/maxers but even if the crafted gear is 15% less effective than raid gear, do you think that casual player who has no interest in raiding for 6 hours a day cares that much?

 

I will find a very willing market in the casual, non raiding community and they will make me a lot of money.

[Almghty_gir]

Has anyone considered that maybe you're not meant to be selling gear to the raiders? As has already been pointed out, not everyone wants to raid. Sell your gear to the people who don't want to as again, someone has already pointed out, the largest customer base are casual plays that don't raid regularly.

 

Sell your crafted gear to the people who don't want to raid or don't have the time to do it regularly. I've made a lot of money selling mid level blues on the GTN.

 

The game is also less than a week old, officially. Things will get tuned, fixed, and balanced as time goes on. I encourage all of you to drop your craft so that way when things get fixed I can dictate where I want the market to go since I'll be one of the few left.

 

well, bear in mind that crafted gear is neither as good as raid gear, or pvp gear, please tell me what someone would be doing in the game if they're doing neither of those things.

 

oh right, crafting... but why? since nobody is going to buy their wares.

[RamzaBehoulve]

Next time, don't rush to 400 skill and follow the market evolution.

 

Not everyone is a raider or PvPer and even then it takes time to get equipped. Crafting gives the opportunity to less fortunate players to reach almost equal stats through just money.

Edited December 25, 2011 by RamzaBehoulve

[Occams_Razor]

it doesnt matter. in a wow-clone trading system like this, even if what you outlined was not a problem, you would still be limited to selling 1 or 2 items (not even rare gear mind that, but some mid-range necessities like belt buckles in wow) which turned a measly profit, and all rest of the items you could sell would bring so ridiculous profits that it would be much more efficient to just sell the materials. been there, done that. like everyone else.

 

crafting needs to be taken away from raid context, and made an entire game in itself. because, it actually is an entire game - think ; this is the world of star wars. a huge galaxy with corporations, technology, and trade. that part of star wars, needs to be represented.

 

I don't want to say you don't have a point, but looking at it from the perspective of the people trying to keep making money by keeping more people subscribed to the game you can see why they will never decouple raiding from crafting as you suggest:

 

Way more people play the game for "end-game" content than play simply to enjoy crafting. And really, splitting it in that binary of a fashion is inaccurate anyway. Many people enjoy both. Now, if I can invest even significant amounts of time, say twice as much as I might invest in downing a single Operations boss, in order to get a raid drop equivalent crafted item made, where is the incentive to go raiding? I'll kill bosses and then be done with them. Once I've downed the last boss in the Eternity Vault, I will never set foot in there again. Why risk the perils of RNG on drops when I can simply have a crafter (who can now be level 1, since the materials he needs are not tied to anything level relevant) whip up a new chest piece that is just as effective?

 

By allowing crafters to make equivalent items to raid drops without setting foot in raids, you will severely diminish the amount of participation in raid content.

 

I would argue that the bigger problem is that it sounds like top tier crafted gear *ALL* requires raid drops. I like how they handled it in WoW where there was heroic instance (flashpoint) equivalent gear that could be crafted, but raid drops were a step above that. PvP gear needs to be equally time consuming to get so that it isn't viewed as "the easy alternative" to crafted or raid gear. These things must all be carefully balanced. From what I'm hearing, either that hasn't happened, or people are not being able to easily distinguish quality of various gear sets.

[Teldara]

So.. Wait. I don't get it.

 

You don't want to Raid to get gear on par with raiders.

You don't want to PVP to get gear on par with PVPers.

 

But you do want your crafting gear to be on part with Raiders..?

 

So, you're saying, you don't want to work for your gear. You just want to craft the greatest and the best without working as hard as the raiders and pvpers.

 

 

Sums it up.

 

It's pretty obvious you have to raid to get the raid materials and the raid schematics.

 

Raiders have to raid to get gear.

PVPers have to pvp to get gear.

Crafters can craft to get gear.

 

Or even more advanced for your brains:

Raiders who craft can raid for better crafted raiding gear.

 

---

 

FYI, this isn't SWG. This is SWTOR.

 

Enlighten me if I get it wrong because I'm just seeing a bunch of QQing.

[Hajizan]

"Raid or die" if you don't like it, don't pay the company. Money talks, b* walks. As been said many times before, this game is a wow clone, just look at the horrible crafting it has.

[Frache]

The real problem with crafting isn't the level of gear you can make. It is the lack of degradation forcing a demand for goods and it being too easy to get same tier gear as crafters.

[Almghty_gir]

So.. Wait. I don't get it.

 

You don't want to Raid to get gear on par with raiders.

You don't want to PVP to get gear on par with PVPers.

 

But you do want your crafting gear to be on part with Raiders..?

 

So, you're saying, you don't want to work for your gear. You just want to craft the greatest and the best without working as hard as the raiders and pvpers.

 

 

Sums it up.

 

It's pretty obvious you have to raid to get the raid materials and the raid schematics.

 

Raiders have to raid to get gear.

PVPers have to pvp to get gear.

Crafters can craft to get gear.

 

Or even more advanced for your brains:

Raiders who craft can raid for better crafted raiding gear.

 

---

 

FYI, this isn't SWG. This is SWTOR.

 

Enlighten me if I get it wrong because I'm just seeing a bunch of QQing.

 

that's not what i said at all, read my previous posts.

 

currently there is NO crafted gear in game that matches either the best pvp or raid gear, even the crafted gear which requires rare drops from raids.

[Tiravus]

If it is required to raid to get mats to make the end level gear, the mats should be considered loot. ie: the gear made from crafting at end game should be on par or slightly better than the boss gear. It would encourage guilds to have people to craft. Those who dont want to raid wouldn't have to.

 

Make the end game crafting mats tradeable or even bop but tradeable within a guild. Therefore crafters wont have to raid and the raiders can have people make gear for them.

 

It basically comes down to all the people who spend time and money crafting want to be able to make money off it and you cant do that if no one wants to buy your crappy gear. if they think outside the box a little I'm sure they can come up with a tradeskill system that supports the raiding system and vice versa.

[Sevenpifers]

If it is required to raid to get mats to make the end level gear, the mats should be considered loot. ie: the gear made from crafting at end game should be on par or slightly better than the boss gear. It would encourage guilds to have people to craft. Those who dont want to raid wouldn't have to.

 

Make the end game crafting mats tradeable or even bop but tradeable within a guild. Therefore crafters wont have to raid and the raiders can have people make gear for them.

 

It basically comes down to all the people who spend time and money crafting want to be able to make money off it and you cant do that if no one wants to buy your crappy gear. if they think outside the box a little I'm sure they can come up with a tradeskill system that supports the raiding system and vice versa.

Exactly, This is why this game will never have an economy. No trade goods+ Useless crafts that are neither cross market usable or guild usable+Slicing spamming= NO Market at all. They minds well take the AH out all together. They better fix this quick, I've gotten to 50 with my IA and 10 with my JK and Trooper and I'm already feeling bored with this game.

[nbittel]

Next time, don't rush to 400 skill and follow the market evolution.

 

Not everyone is a raider or PvPer and even then it takes time to get equipped. Crafting gives the opportunity to less fortunate players to reach almost equal stats through just money.

 

This is exactly what I was getting at. People will still PvP and raid but they won't do it as often as the serious hardcore raiders. I play maybe 1-2 hours a day during the week if that. If I want gear right now and have some money to spare, I can get very comparable gear from a crafter while I slowly work my way towards the better gear via raiding and PvP.

 

I'm telling you, this will be a very profitable niche for crafters as the large portion of the population fits this category.

 

Serious raiders and min/maxers who worry about 3 points here, 5 points there are the minority. You are not my intended market.

 

If BW does at some point make it so I can make comparable gear to raiders then I'll just make even more money.

Edited December 25, 2011 by nbittel

[Dannyj_]

so many idiots , its a mmorpg.

Your ranse about "hey i pay the same as that guy , i deserve the same !"

 

MMORPG Rule number 1 : PLAY MORE

God am i happy that this isnt another care bare free loot for everyone

Edited December 25, 2011 by Dannyj_

[lykor]

and it being too easy to get same tier gear as crafters.

 

this.

Edited December 25, 2011 by lykor

[CaptainYamdo]

People continue to misconstrue what so many crafters are trying to say.

 

It's not about crafters not wanting to "work" for gear. It's not about crafters trying to become leet without dedication. Far from it. Most crafters I have known over the years of MMO playing are some of the most dedicated people and players you will meet.

 

The issue (as far as I can tell by reading this thread and knowing many crafters) is the lack of a true crafting meta-game. SWG had it. Why not SWTOR? (just using this as an easy example) You could do nothing but craft in SWG if you chose. You never had to raid or anything if you never wanted to (at least you could before SOE ruined SWG). I had a friend who did nothing but craft droids and earn credits. That was his way of having fun and enjoying the game. I don't think he ever set foot in a raid.

 

I am not a crafter myself... at least not hard-core, but I believe the bottom line is if all you want to do is immerse yourself into crafting and making cool items for your friends and for the market, then why shouldn't you be allowed to do that? Why should you be forced into raiding in order to get recipes and mats to make your items?

 

That is the questions and arguments at play.

 

A lot of people don't realize that prior to WoW there were a ton of games where you never even had to enter a dungeon if you never wanted to, especially if all you wanted to do was craft.

 

I am loving SWTOR right now, but I can also see the crafters' side of things. They are paying the same amount as everyone else to play the game, so why should it boil down to raid or else?

[Choukyuudan]

I've read six of the nine pages that existed prior to typing this. Before I go farther, allow me a moment to provide some background information about myself. I'm 30. I did hardcore gamer from 4 until about 22 when life forced me to reinvest my energy. My MMORPG experience consists of FFXI and WoW, both of which I played from their launches. I still play WoW, but it's on hiatus while I level up in SWTOR. I enjoy raiding for two reasons: to defeat the content and to obtain the loot. Finally, the background bit that I'm sure will turn on the flamethrowers: I do not like Star Wars at all!. I've written off every Star Wars game to this point simply because of its game. This one escaped the fate because I had a boring weekend and an unused beta key that I'd acquired for my brother who'd already found his own way into the beta. Anyway, I'll leave it here and avoid bashing Lucas.

 

With that out of the way, several people clamor for Bioware to take the game in a more "fun" direction. However, few actually attempt providing any sort of idea for that direction. There's a good reason why though. Much like common knowledge, fun is not a concept with a singular, universal definition. What's fun to one person isn't fun to another. The irony here is that some have pointed this out yet still gone on to demand that Bioware change the game to cater to their notion of fun. Now, I'm not here to defend the crafting system in its current implementation. I'm an Assassin 22 with roughly 200 Biochem (a profession chosen from raiding experience in WoW), and the system certainly has some outright design flaws. Moreover, if top-tier crafted armors and weapons crafted from raid-dropped schematics and materials are inferior to heroics and dailies, that is a problem Bioware needs to address. However, I will chime in on the notion that pure crafters should have full access to schematics and materials, including ones from raids, without ever raiding.

 

I agree that a crafter should have access to the full range of materials and schematics within his/her profession. That said, if a crafter isn't willing to experience the content that provides a given material or schematic, then that crafter must wait for those who are willing to experience the content to sell it because simply reaching 400 in a craft doesn't entitle one to anything. As long as the patterns and materials are BoE or able to be traded, then this aspect of the system works fine. Is it necessarily fun? No, but it is fair because it forces players to earn the best one way or another. Either you can raid/pvp/heroics/etc and get the stuff for your crafts for free (excluding progression costs and the like) and faster in general, or you can avoid such content and buy the items in question from others after such content is on farm status. Both reward time and effort and allow the player in question to whatever he/she finds more fun. Moreover, if the crafter is only concerned with acquiring the materials and patterns, then the crafter shouldn't care that there may not be much market for the wares once they're finally acquired. This follows real world economics where a product is only relevant until its next big competitor comes along and dethrones it.

 

Anyway, if raid schematics aren't on pair with raid gear, then there's a problem. If the complaint is that crafters shouldn't be forced to experience content to maximize their craft, they aren't as long as the items from undesirable content can be traded or sold. It's great that you reached 400 in three crafts; however, it doesn't entitle you to anything more than that which can be acquired from trainers and reverse engineering. Finally, for all of the players who want the game to cater to their concept of fun, remember that what's fun to you isn't necessarily fun to another, and vice-versa. Moreover, those other people pay the same monthly fee that you do. So, what makes your concept of fun more important than someone else's? The answer is: nothing.

[lykor]

People continue to misconstrue what so many crafters are trying to say.

 

It's not about crafters not wanting to "work" for gear. It's not about crafters trying to become leet without dedication. Far from it. Most crafters I have known over the years of MMO playing are some of the most dedicated people and players you will meet.

 

The issue (as far as I can tell by reading this thread and knowing many crafters) is the lack of a true crafting meta-game. SWG had it. Why not SWTOR? (just using this as an easy example) You could do nothing but craft in SWG if you chose. You never had to raid or anything if you never wanted to (at least you could before SOE ruined SWG). I had a friend who did nothing but craft droids and earn credits. That was his way of having fun and enjoying the game. I don't think he ever set foot in a raid.

 

I am not a crafter myself... at least not hard-core, but I believe the bottom line is if all you want to do is immerse yourself into crafting and making cool items for your friends and for the market, then why shouldn't you be allowed to do that? Why should you be forced into raiding in order to get recipes and mats to make your items?

 

That is the questions and arguments at play.

 

A lot of people don't realize that prior to WoW there were a ton of games where you never even had to enter a dungeon if you never wanted to, especially if all you wanted to do was craft.

 

I am loving SWTOR right now, but I can also see the crafters' side of things. They are paying the same amount as everyone else to play the game, so why should it boil down to raid or else?

 

I agree with you. But there's another group of crafters like me who just don't like that it's waaay easier to get the same quality items by just doing PvP or everything behind normal flashpoints. For me it's not the fact that players can get the same quality gear as crafters can craft, it's the fact that it's 100x easier and faster to get it.

Edited December 25, 2011 by lykor

[Undef]

What follows is a proposal for BioWare. Welcome to the wall of text

 

CCP (the makers of EVE Online) got most of this right. Some aspects of Eve are detrimental to a mass-market game, but the crafting system is not one of them. Crafting/marketplace is, itself, an entire game in Eve. Those who enjoy crafting/selling can do that full-time and have fun for years. Those who prefer killing people and breaking things get to do that, and never create a single thing (and never grind for a 1% drop rate, either). Here's how it might work in SWTOR:

 

1) There's no such thing as "item progression." There's no such thing as "the best chest piece." Players must ask themselves, "The best chest piece for what?" For intense PvE raiding? For dailies? For roleplay? For arena-style PvP? For world PvP? For good-looking character portraits? SWTOR already has a good start with the mod concept. Allow more mods/enhancements per piece, and more choices for their effects, and no two characters will ever be equipped identically. That is good for immersion, good for end-game content players, and good for end-game crafters.

 

2) To keep the complexity down for casual players, create simple, generic items that are still powerful gear progression. Imagine "upgrade packs" that span multiple upgrade slots for a themed upgrade. The casual player buys these meta-mods to simply upgrade gear along "standard" upgrade paths. I imagine the current "item progression" could be handled entirely with this kind of "upgrade pack" approach. A question like, "What's the best chest mod for raiding" could be answered, "The best pack is a rare drop from the Vault's last boss--but the BEST gear is always bought from crafters. You have to decide exactly what you want your gear to do for you, and it's expensive, but it's the best."

 

3) A rich gear crafting system can play well during leveling, as early mission rewards include these meta-upgrades or "upgrade packs" to introduce new players to their use. Crafters can create upgrade packs for all levels of gear, and players will be steered to the market system earlier, but can avoid it if they just want to wear standard leveling gear with few upgrades.

 

4) There are no BindOnPickup gear or upgrades. With a system like this, there is no need to "force" players to craft. In WoW (and apparently, SWTOR), no one would craft without "exclusive" crafted items only the crafter can wear. If you make crafting a game unto itself--where the producers are rewarded for their play by the consumers who buy their products--the system works for both kinds of players.

 

5) Materials and equipment for crafting high-end items can only be found in raid environments. But since only the raiders can find the mats/tools/equipment, but only the crafters can use it to make gear, both kinds of players earn their play time. The crafters can't make top-level gear without raiders to grind for the "elements," and raiders can't wear the materials they find until those mats are crafted. Each sells the results of his hard work to the other, and each gets to focus on the part of the game he/she likes best.

 

6) Want to both raid *and* craft? Of course you can. But top-level crafters should be rare because it takes a lot of work (and play time) to learn how. When I say "only crafters can" above, that doesn't mean the game arbitrarily limits things. I mean only crafters have the desire to acquire and amass rare mats and create unique combinations of them. If someone wants to raid for his mats and devote time and energy to craft them (ala SWG), fantastic. But most raiders will find it easier to just sell what they get on raids and buy items as needed. Crafting should be a specialization representing (at the highest levels of the skill) a lifetime of dedication.

 

BioWare, please don't let the SWTOR crafting system stay in its current form. Blizzard got it wrong: crafting doesn't have to be a railroaded grind that must be nerfed to keep it from outshining raid rewards. CCP got much of it right. But crafting and gear progression don't have to be complex and cutthroat with a steep, casual-player-hostile, learning curve.

 

You're the newest. Now be the best. So far, you have failed to do so, but we of your fledgling community are keeping the faith.

 

--Russ

[CaptainYamdo]

I agree with you. But there's another group of crafters like me who just don't like that it's waaay easier to get the same quality items by just doing PvP or everything behind normal flashpoints. For me it's not the fact that players can get the same quality gear as crafters can craft, it's the fact that it's 100x easier and faster to get it.

 

I can see and understand that too. As DAOC is still my favorite MMO, I will use it's example that crafted epics were better than anything you would get in raids or PvP in that game for a long long long time (other than Artifact and Legendary items). Crafters of high level gear were treasured and sought after by guilds and were on high demand on the open market. And it would involve ALL crafters to get a full set of the best crafted raid level and high level PvP gear.

 

As I said before I sympathize with crafters in those regards, but I do also understand the majority mindset that makers of MMOs now have to cater to. It really is a double edged sword.

[lykor]

What follows is a proposal for BioWare. Welcome to the wall of text

 

CCP (the makers of EVE Online) got most of this right. Some aspects of Eve are detrimental to a mass-market game, but the crafting system is not one of them. Crafting/marketplace is, itself, an entire game in Eve. Those who enjoy crafting/selling can do that full-time and have fun for years. Those who prefer killing people and breaking things get to do that, and never create a single thing (and never grind for a 1% drop rate, either). Here's how it might work in SWTOR:

 

1) There's no such thing as "item progression." There's no such thing as "the best chest piece." Players must ask themselves, "The best chest piece for what?" For intense PvE raiding? For dailies? For roleplay? For arena-style PvP? For world PvP? For good-looking character portraits? SWTOR already has a good start with the mod concept. Allow more mods/enhancements per piece, and more choices for their effects, and no two characters will ever be equipped identically. That is good for immersion, good for end-game content players, and good for end-game crafters.

 

2) To keep the complexity down for casual players, create simple, generic items that are still powerful gear progression. Imagine "upgrade packs" that span multiple upgrade slots for a themed upgrade. The casual player buys these meta-mods to simply upgrade gear along "standard" upgrade paths. I imagine the current "item progression" could be handled entirely with this kind of "upgrade pack" approach. A question like, "What's the best chest mod for raiding" could be answered, "The best pack is a rare drop from the Vault's last boss--but the BEST gear is always bought from crafters. You have to decide exactly what you want your gear to do for you, and it's expensive, but it's the best."

 

3) A rich gear crafting system can play well during leveling, as early mission rewards include these meta-upgrades or "upgrade packs" to introduce new players to their use. Crafters can create upgrade packs for all levels of gear, and players will be steered to the market system earlier, but can avoid it if they just want to wear standard leveling gear with few upgrades.

 

4) There are no BindOnPickup gear or upgrades. With a system like this, there is no need to "force" players to craft. In WoW (and apparently, SWTOR), no one would craft without "exclusive" crafted items only the crafter can wear. If you make crafting a game unto itself--where the producers are rewarded for their play by the consumers who buy their products--the system works for both kinds of players.

 

5) Materials and equipment for crafting high-end items can only be found in raid environments. But since only the raiders can find the mats/tools/equipment, but only the crafters can use it to make gear, both kinds of players earn their play time. The crafters can't make top-level gear without raiders to grind for the "elements," and raiders can't wear the materials they find until those mats are crafted. Each sells the results of his hard work to the other, and each gets to focus on the part of the game he/she likes best.

 

6) Want to both raid *and* craft? Of course you can. But top-level crafters should be rare because it takes a lot of work (and play time) to learn how. When I say "only crafters can" above, that doesn't mean the game arbitrarily limits things. I mean only crafters have the desire to acquire and amass rare mats and create unique combinations of them. If someone wants to raid for his mats and devote time and energy to craft them (ala SWG), fantastic. But most raiders will find it easier to just sell what they get on raids and buy items as needed. Crafting should be a specialization representing (at the highest levels of the skill) a lifetime of dedication.

 

BioWare, please don't let the SWTOR crafting system stay in its current form. Blizzard got it wrong: crafting doesn't have to be a railroaded grind that must be nerfed to keep it from outshining raid rewards. CCP got much of it right. But crafting and gear progression don't have to be complex and cutthroat with a steep, casual-player-hostile, learning curve.

 

You're the newest. Now be the best. So far, you have failed to do so, but we of your fledgling community are keeping the faith.

 

--Russ

 

You nailed it.

 

/signed

 

BioWare, please don't let the SWTOR crafting system stay in its current form. Blizzard got it wrong: crafting doesn't have to be a railroaded grind that must be nerfed to keep it from outshining raid rewards. CCP got much of it right. But crafting and gear progression don't have to be complex and cutthroat with a steep, casual-player-hostile, learning curve.

[Undef]

If a crafter isn't willing to experience the content that provides a given material or schematic, then that crafter must wait for those who are willing to experience the content to sell it.

 

Key point, and it dovetails with my thoughts exactly. Make a rich economic system without silly BoP abitrariness, and let the players find the right balance.

[Ashanor]

I've never been a fan of putting BOP crafting materials in heroics or raids, but then I was one of those level 1 crafters in MMOs gone by.

 

The new model seems to be if it's comparable with raid gear, get your butt into a raid you slacker. Too many raiders went all Gollum on the loot tables and now we all suffer.

 

They shouldn't have listened to vocal minority raiders in the beta (if this is what they did).

[Occams_Razor]

Key point, and it dovetails with my thoughts exactly. Make a rich economic system without silly BoP abitrariness, and let the players find the right balance.

 

Totally agree. Now, the big concern for me is that it sounds like the basic, green rarity items also require raid mats to make. This would be a horrible mistake if true. If it's not true, then we're good, though Mr. Undef's suggestion would be better.

 

/signed

[xioix]

armors/weapons yes but not stimulants