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Just curious...

texoc

By texoc
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texoc

texoc

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...about the inconsistency in class balancing.

 

BW is trying to reduce abillity bloat. Just to name a few: Criplling Throw lost on Sentinels, Rupture gone for 2 specs, OPS lose quite some iconic abillities, shock and force lightning have absolutely no use in the ligthning tree, yet for example rage juggers got:

 

Ravage, Vicious Slash, Vicious Throw, Force Scream, Smash, Retaliation, Obliterate, Raging Burst, Force Crush, Furious Strike just for dumping out dmg and/or spending their ressources?

 

Another example i just found in a Q&A:

"Dev: It’s one of the unspoken things we had when we were doing the Class Rep system that I couldn’t tell people unfortunately, what I couldn’t tell them at the time, was that a lot of the suggestions that people didn’t think we were listening to literally was injected directly into the changes for 3.0. Things like “Sorcs don’t have a defensive cooldown” – now they have 2 if you pick the right abilities in 3.0. I couldn’t tell you that a year ago – yeah, they’re working on a class expansion, we couldn’t get those changes in a year ago we couldn’t say that a year ago we were working on an expansion."

 

Where are the Def CDs for Mercs? They have been asking for it since almost release!

Looking at the mined stuff, where are the Def CDs for Dps Ops?

 

The concepts of merc, operatives and snipers are falling apart. The control snipers have, the few immoblize/snare options a merc has, or the "burst" operatives have become meaningless when BW hands out stun immunities like candy and even more ways to get rid of movement imparing effects.

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QuiveringPotato

QuiveringPotato

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I'm not sure if they gave DPS operatives more DCDs but if they did, it would be tied to stim boost.

 

Really wish they'd give Stim Boost a DCD for lethality, or possibly put theirs on evasion, and let concealment have ours on sneak, just a +25% DR like sins have would be more than fine. And having the speed boost on it at the same time is fair, since deception gets the extra force regen on an already easymode resource system.

 

To be fair, though, at least some classes are gaining abilities to replace their lost ones (explosive probe > volatile substance)

 

And yes, I agree with the OP about stun immunities, especially about the whole Deflection giving CC immunity thing.

 

Like, who the hell even suggested that? Probably a dev that plays sin that keyboard turns, backpedals, clicks, etc and got killed by a decent sniper once or twice.

Edited by QuiveringPotato
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Ld-Siris

Ld-Siris

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The talent in the healing tree that reduces the cool down of evasion on damage taken will be a utility for all ops to get. Not to mention shield probe is now on 20s long.

 

As for leth. They do get a talent that increases the absorption by 30%. Plus part of you defenses is CC. Rotate them with your DCDs. And lastly ****** flasbang****** 8 people.

 

As for Mercs, there not as weak as everyone keeps saying. The talent that reduces the cool down of the shield on dmg taken is now a utility. So is the absorption with tracer missle.

 

Neither class needs more DCDs

 

 

EDIT: sorry I just realized some of the OP stuff I can't talk about as they haven't done that classes yet. Disregard

Edited by Ld-Siris
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Nightkin

Nightkin

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As for Mercs, there not as weak as everyone keeps saying. The talent that reduces the cool down of the shield on dmg taken is now a utility. So is the absorption with tracer missle.

 

Neither class needs more DCDs

 

 

Your knowledge about PvP has been found wanting.

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texoc

texoc

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The talent in the healing tree that reduces the cool down of evasion on damage taken will be a utility for all ops to get. Not to mention shield probe is now on 20s long.

 

As for leth. They do get a talent that increases the absorption by 30%. Plus part of you defenses is CC. Rotate them with your DCDs. And lastly ****** flasbang****** 8 people.

 

As for Mercs, there not as weak as everyone keeps saying. The talent that reduces the cool down of the shield on dmg taken is now a utility. So is the absorption with tracer missle.

 

Neither class needs more DCDs

 

 

EDIT: sorry I just realized some of the OP stuff I can't talk about as they haven't done that classes yet. Disregard

 

Evasion does not prevent you from getting globaled in ranked arena.

Shield Probe is 20sec on life already, still cant be compared to sorc bubble.

 

That 30% absorption increase is for shield probe but gets moved to uttilities, actually heroic. And there is no point left to put in there, so this talent is lost for operatives. Last time i checked they nerfed the cd of shield probe!!!

Stuns would be an argument if the other classes had less or even none.

 

Edited by texoc
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Nightkin

Nightkin

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Then again no 1 class should survive when being focused by multiple enemies without help.

 

Have I been globalled on my merc by 3 people. Yup. Have I won 1v3 on my merc. Yup

So its all good? Mercs are "fine"? Yeah? That is basically what you are saying or did i missunderstand something?
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Ld-Siris

Ld-Siris

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So its all good? Mercs are "fine"? Yeah? That is basically what you are saying or did i missunderstand something?

 

Yes mercs are fine. In fact they are in a better spot the some of the other classes.

Edited by Ld-Siris
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maverickmatt

maverickmatt

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That guy is just someone who plays on another class and does not want Mercs to be balanced so he can keep killing them easily. Bad troll is bad.

 

It would seem that your definition of balance is an unassailable island that shoots instakill missiles at anyone getting close.

 

That is not balance.

 

 

BUT BUT BUT I NEEDZ MOAR DEFENSE/OFFENSE/SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS YET.

 

Go to any class forum, or anywhere in this PvP forum and you will find the same sentiment echoed by players of all classes. Everyone thinks they need a buff and another class needs a nerf, and everyone thinks they have some sort of data to back up that it's not just that they aren't an optimal player.. it's that the class is inherently ******. So by that logic, all classes are inherently ****** because everyone is clamoring for buffs to their class because they can't make it work. And if you tell the mercs that guardians want buffs they get furious, but if you tell the guardians that slingers want buffs they are also furious. So who actually needs buffs and who actually needs nerfs? Nobody has access to their metrics; All anyone has is anecdotal personal experiences, which are a prime example of the hilarity of the Dunning Kruger Effect.

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Nightkin

Nightkin

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It would seem that your definition of balance is an unassailable island that shoots instakill missiles at anyone getting close.

 

That is not balance.

 

 

BUT BUT BUT I NEEDZ MOAR DEFENSE/OFFENSE/SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS YET.

 

Go to any class forum, or anywhere in this PvP forum and you will find the same sentiment echoed by players of all classes. Everyone thinks they need a buff and another class needs a nerf, and everyone thinks they have some sort of data to back up that it's not just that they aren't an optimal player.. it's that the class is inherently ******. So by that logic, all classes are inherently ****** because everyone is clamoring for buffs to their class because they can't make it work. And if you tell the mercs that guardians want buffs they get furious, but if you tell the guardians that slingers want buffs they are also furious. So who actually needs buffs and who actually needs nerfs? Nobody has access to their metrics; All anyone has is anecdotal personal experiences, which are a prime example of the hilarity of the Dunning Kruger Effect.

WARNING SUPER LONG SMART POST

 

Ok first off, quite the smart text, but a few rights dont make your post correct.

 

Allow me to offer some counter facts:

1: He never asked to be a insta kill machine, he asked for balance, L2Read ;)

 

2: Everyone whines! This is correct, however few whines are correct seen from the bigger picture (a good example would be a reddit post that complained that jugs had to use a utility for ED to remove dots, so much sadness for you mister jug. I really feel for you.

 

3: Mercs have been the least succesfull pvp class since...ever. Due to lack a of defences and a inability to deliver dps while under fire. Part of this is being handled in 3.0 but only a part of it.

 

4: Mercs are and still will be the least viable dps class for pvp. I wont comment on the healing tree since i dont yet know how effective that will be but im guessing with the crusade to nerf their healing thats currently going on (PTS) i doubt its gonna be very fun to play one.

 

5: This is not only based on personal experience, its a shared view by the majority of the skilled part of the community.

 

Please do your own math, compare mercs defensive cooldowns (IE: stuff that doesnt involve hoping the other guy isnt white barred) to any other class in the game.

 

Merc:

Energy Shield = Quite good

Kolto Overload = Dog poo

HO = Ok, highly situational but still a good ability but it does not negate any dmg taken

Mara:

Cloak of Pain = Quite good, 20% mitigation though with moderate uptime.

Sabreward = Quite good

Force Camo = Excellent

UR = Moderate, excellent for the first few seconds then it turns into a self execute

 

Jugs:

Sabreward = Quite good

Saber Reflect = Excellent, though a bit short

Endure Pain = Excellent, possible movement speed buff with some immunities thrown in + a medpack for a second life

Enraged Defence = Excellent, a third life for the jug

Intercede = Moderate, very situational but also very useful.

 

Assassin:

Phasewalk = Excellent, panic button to break focus and with the chance to get out of combat and heal up

Force Cloak = Excellent, panic button to break focus and with the chance to get out of combat and heal up

Sabreward = Moderate, shorter cooldowns then for warriors but no 25% dmg mitigation vs tech/force

Shroud = Excellent

Force Run = Ok ability that has the speed it needs to be effective, also easy to get utility to break snares and roots

 

Operative:

Combat Stealth = Excellent, panic button to break focus and with the chance to get out of combat and heal up

Evasion = Quite good, high dodge and a self purge that removes uncleansable effects

Combat Roll = Ok ability, no more no less.

Energy Shield = Ok ability, short cooldown with a moderate absorb

 

Powertech:

Energy Shield = Quite good

Kolto Overload = Decent, the added 30% dmg mitigation makes the self heal work vs executes. With the added second stun removal it is very strong.

HO = Ok, highly situational but still a good ability but it does not negate any dmg taken

Close and Personal= Passive for all PT´s. Kinda meh ability but still something.

 

Sniper:

Evasion = Quite good, high dodge

Combat Roll = Ok ability, no more no less.

Energy Shield = Ok ability, short cooldown with a moderate absorb

Entrench = Very good but with no added dmg mitigation

Cover = 20% ranged defence , passive while not moving. Moderately good vs few classes.

 

Sorc:

Force Run = Ok ability that has the speed it needs to be effective, also easy to get utility to break snares and roots

Force bubble = Good ability, easy to renew

Force Barrier = Excellent, panic button to break focus and with a lingering absorb effect. Self stun

 

 

I only listed skills thats not tied to a spec or relies on your enemy having resolve or not, only stuff that effects yourself in order to give you a chance to survive. I might have missed something but i dont think i did.

 

Sorcs only have 3 such abilites but 2 of them are on short cooldowns and quite effective, the third is a panic button wich is one of the strongest panic buttons in the game.

Operatives have several defences but without heal spec they fall short quite fast vs other melee classes.

Powertechs have few defences but they are moderately effective in combination with a staggering amount of burst attacks.

Jugs are super effective with decent dps, A-class for solo ranked and best tanks overall making them wanted for group ranked aswell.

Snipers are tied with dps operatives and usually one of the first to get focused due to lack of mobility and defences.

Assassins are very difficult to focus with 2 panic buttons and good defences overall, A-class for solo and Group ranked.

Mercs work well in 8vs8 where they can hide behind other players but quickly fall short in arenas due to a lack of effective defences and with a generally poor effect of the ones they do have. Lacks panic button to break focus.

 

Will we see more mercs in the next season/arenas with the 3.0 changes? We might, they will probably be a little more succesful but will still die easily when focused.

 

Care to offer any comments on how wrong i am?

Edited by Nightkin
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texoc

texoc

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Nightkin you are forgetting Energy Rebounder and stabilized armour. All merc specs have access to those. Might not be the best defensive utilities however they can save lifes.

 

Its is def. more than welcome. But other classes get buffed aswell and gain multiple new ways to just negate the little bit of control snipers/mercs and ops had.

 

BW always reasoned the lack of defense with the possibility to "heal to full". This is and has been for ever meaningless in arena. And now they remove the possibility. Those classes worked somewhat fine in 8v8. But arena shifted the balance.

 

While I absoutely agree that balancing needs to be done carefully in order to minimize the tears in regular BGS, those classes shoudlnt be a disdvantage for your team in arena.

 

Concealment has 4m on its entire rotation, making it more meele than a warrior or assassin.

Ops lack uttility! Do roughly the same damage as an assassin! Yet cant even take half of the dmg or focusfire.

They have nerfed the control (KD on Opener gone)! Now they nerf the uttility with 3.0... and make him kiteable.

operative players and merc have been asking for def CDs so long, yet they give juggers, maros, sorcs and assasins more cds and stuff to just faceroll over the non lightsaberwielding classes. ( PT is still holding its own)

 

Assassins had already!!!! Force Shroud on low cooldown to counter CCs and ensure that they wont get stunned out in their burst phase, yet they give them another 12 second immunity. Whats the reasoning behind this?? Its a freakin burst class, that can have a 17 seconds stun immunity??

 

It does not matter if you are playing Sniper, OPs dps or Merc absolutely flawless in arena, you will get shrekked in the first 10 seonds. At the same time my jugger is facetanking 3 dps for 30+ seconds. How is that balanced?

 

BWs balancing is simply put stupid. They extracted all the defense from dps ops out of their trees made them utillity. Its the same for Mercs. You have to spend almost all your points to get to the same level you have been before, while the healer spec has now access to all of the def perks which in return makes the healer to durable, and the approach that BW chose is to nerf the CD from Shield Probe? Instead of utilizing their disciplines and putting much needed stuff in the dps trees, they are swinging the nerf hammer again.

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Technohic

Technohic

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I mean I would post the Vid of my Merc getting immortal just today in fact but twitch likes to mute audio.

 

Besides, ranked is all that matters so I guess that doesn't matter anyways.

 

Therein lies the problem. By definitions, ranked is all that matters when you have one that has a rating and the other doesn't. Its the only measure of "skill" yet it is poorly done.

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