Player-count scaling for Flashpoints and Ops.

[Chicktopus]

As the title says. Scaling for enemies and rewards in Flashpoints and Ops up to the maximum group size alleviate the difficulty of having to find the correct number of players.

 

Let's have an example: Say your guild wants to raid S&V HM 16-man. You've got 12 people but oh no! There are no more guildies online! Well, you could full-up the rest with chumps hanging around the fleet, otherwise it looks like you're in for an 8-man and 1/3rd of the people are going to miss out. Tough call.

Let's have another example: You're unguilded or you can't make your guilds ops times or worse yet, you can't get long enough consecutively to do an ops, what do you do? Guess you're doomed to grinding comms if you want gear.

 

Ok, but what if the group content scaled to the player count, but ALSO considered the difficulty selected, adjusting rewards and difficulty based on group-size. Naturally 16-man ops are not allowed for groups of less than 8 players.

 

Loot:

 

Loot is respective to player-count and difficulty mode. A SM ops run solo will have a loot quality range from Prototype to whatever the normal SM ops quality was, but with a low drop-rate for SM quality items (using player-count as a multiplier -- more players, better chance of better items. This works up to the full 8/16-man limit where ops loot is guaranteed) . 16-man variants with >8 players may have a higher-drop rate for ops quality gear than their <8 man counterparts. Certain items ( e.g. schematics/crafting materials/rare mounts) should not be available do down-scaled operations.

 

Commendations:

 

Commendations work similarly to loot, the quality of the commendations depends on the quantity of players. More players means a better chance of better commendations.

 

Ops rewards:

 

Unchanged

 

Lockouts:

 

Lockouts remain unchanged. If a <8 man op is attempted, the participants are still locked to that <8 man op

 

Difficulty:

 

Story-mode is still the easier variant with hard-mode providing tougher fights and better rewards. NiM requires a full 8/16-man and does not scale with player-count.

 

Flashpoints:

 

The same rules as ops apply, with relation to group-size, loot and rewards. Flashpoint scaling only applies to SM, HM still requires a full group.

 

What this means for the player-base:

 

If you're still regularly raiding 8/16 mans with full groups then you won't notice a difference. If you can't make your guilds ops, or if you're a casual player, you can still experience the end-game content, as well as have the opportunity to get endgame experience and gear-up.

[Ratajack]

As the title says. Scaling for enemies and rewards in Flashpoints and Ops up to the maximum group size alleviate the difficulty of having to find the correct number of players.

 

Let's have an example: Say your guild wants to raid S&V HM 16-man. You've got 12 people but oh no! There are no more guildies online! Well, you could full-up the rest with chumps hanging around the fleet, otherwise it looks like you're in for an 8-man and 1/3rd of the people are going to miss out. Tough call.

Let's have another example: You're unguilded or you can't make your guilds ops times or worse yet, you can't get long enough consecutively to do an ops, what do you do? Guess you're doomed to grinding comms if you want gear.

 

Ok, but what if the group content scaled to the player count, but ALSO considered the difficulty selected, adjusting rewards and difficulty based on group-size. Naturally 16-man ops are not allowed for groups of less than 8 players.

 

Loot:

 

Loot is respective to player-count and difficulty mode. A SM ops run solo will have a loot quality range from Prototype to whatever the normal SM ops quality was, but with a low drop-rate for SM quality items (using player-count as a multiplier -- more players, better chance of better items. This works up to the full 8/16-man limit where ops loot is guaranteed) . 16-man variants with >8 players may have a higher-drop rate for ops quality gear than their <8 man counterparts. Certain items ( e.g. schematics/crafting materials/rare mounts) should not be available do down-scaled operations.

 

Commendations:

 

Commendations work similarly to loot, the quality of the commendations depends on the quantity of players. More players means a better chance of better commendations.

 

Ops rewards:

 

Unchanged

 

Lockouts:

 

Lockouts remain unchanged. If a <8 man op is attempted, the participants are still locked to that <8 man op

 

Difficulty:

 

Story-mode is still the easier variant with hard-mode providing tougher fights and better rewards. NiM requires a full 8/16-man and does not scale with player-count.

 

Flashpoints:

 

The same rules as ops apply, with relation to group-size, loot and rewards. Flashpoint scaling only applies to SM, HM still requires a full group.

 

What this means for the player-base:

 

If you're still regularly raiding 8/16 mans with full groups then you won't notice a difference. If you can't make your guilds ops, or if you're a casual player, you can still experience the end-game content, as well as have the opportunity to get endgame experience and gear-up.

 

 

How dare they expect us to group with other players in an MMO? </sarcasm off>

 

 

Sorry, but this IS an MMO. There are some activities that require groups. If you want to run them with less than the recommended number of players, that is your choice. BW should NOT make any adjustments to the difficulty simply because some players do not want to find the correct number of people, however.

[Chicktopus]

How dare they expect us to group with other players in an MMO? </sarcasm off>

 

 

Sorry, but this IS an MMO. There are some activities that require groups. If you want to run them with less than the recommended number of players, that is your choice. BW should NOT make any adjustments to the difficulty simply because some players do not want to find the correct number of people, however.

 

Ah but this isn't just for solo players, this is also poses an alternative to cancelling and down-scaling ops where the required players cannot be met.

[JouerTue]

 

 

A SM ops run solo

 

Ops rewards:

 

Unchanged

 

Difficulty:

hard-mode providing tougher fights and better rewards

 

 

lol, just make the effort and pug once DF and once DP, maybe even TFB and SaV and then also the most casual will be done and will go back to his FP routine, maybe even grabbing some set bonus item to give to his companion cuz oriconian is so better. this change would kill the wet noodle spine of the today pugs and again ops solo is just absurd.

Edited November 19, 2014 by JouerTue

[Chicktopus]

lol, just make the effort and pug once DF and once DP, maybe even TFB and SaV and then also the most casual will be done and will go back to his FP routine, maybe even grabbing some set bonus item to give to his companion cuz oriconian is so better. this change would kill the wet noodle spine of the today pugs and again ops solo is just absurd.

 

Fair enough, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but bear in mind that not everyone can make the time to do an ops all in one go -- much less a pug run, which typically takes longer than a guild run. The ability to do bits at a time over the course of a week may be the only option for some people, I don't see it as fair to punish them because they have other demands on their time which take priority. Instead, let's weigh this up in pros and cons (feel free to chip in your own, these are just the ones I could think of).

 

Pros:

- Casual players get to experience endgame content at their own pace

- Provides an alternative gearing strategy for players who cannot participate in regular ops

- Players without experience can learn the fights before attempting with a more complete group

- Relaxes group-size constraints

 

Cons:

- Requires development time

- Players may still prefer to disband the group rather than do a run with a reduced chance of quality gear

- How would dynamic scaling work if players join/leave mid-instance? Would everyone have to leave and enter again to re-scale it, or is it fixed?

[Muljo_Stpho]

I still haven't tried a couple of the ops and I haven't done most of the ones I have been in more than once each, but wouldn't there be a minimum player requirement because of fight and puzzle mechanics at some point or another in each of them? (Much like how we can never run the heroic in Section X with less than a full group of 4 no matter how overleveled / overgeared we get because it specifically requires 4 players to click on things at the end.)

 

Anyway, my thought for an alternative suggestion here: Instead of trying to make it complicated by introducing conversion rules to dynamically scale reward drop rates and enemy stats with group size, maybe just add two more options for what the instance can be set as before entering. Provide options for 6, 8, 12, and 16 player groups. (Or change that 6 to a 4 if 4 will be enough to get through puzzles.) The new options can be scaled appropriately to provide the right difficulty / rewards.

 

Groups like in the topic creator's example will have that intermediate option of the 12 player instance available instead of needing to lose / gain group members for the 8 / 16 player instances. Solo play may not be given as an option here, but the players that prefer smaller groups like in the flashpoints will not need to scrape together a full 8 or 16 man group to check out the ops. Although then the question is whether these 6 man and 12 man versions get their own lockouts or if they each share a lockout with the next size up.

 

I would imagine, though, that hard mode ops would only offer the 12 man intermediary option and nightmare mode ops would not offer any intermediary option.

 

2-3 players can already be fine in most flashpoints if they pull out companions to fill the missing roles and if their companion's gear is fairly up to date. They just might have to be a little more careful about each fight they get into. Solo players need to rely more on overleveling and overgearing (where possible) to be able to get through flashpoints without help.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Muljo_Stpho

[LyraineAlei]

Sounds like a generally good idea, IMO.

 

Sure, people may complain about those who Solo the game, but this idea isn't really for them. It reads like an idea for those who can't get a full 16 group, maybe only 14, or 10 people.

 

IMO, I also like the different options (four-man ops, eight, ten, six, sixteen and so forth) since it would allow those guild who may only have a few people online who can raid, to still raid.

[Ratajack]

Fair enough, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but bear in mind that not everyone can make the time to do an ops all in one go -- much less a pug run, which typically takes longer than a guild run. The ability to do bits at a time over the course of a week may be the only option for some people, I don't see it as fair to punish them because they have other demands on their time which take priority. Instead, let's weigh this up in pros and cons (feel free to chip in your own, these are just the ones I could think of).

 

Pros:

- Casual players get to experience endgame content at their own pace

- Provides an alternative gearing strategy for players who cannot participate in regular ops

- Players without experience can learn the fights before attempting with a more complete group

- Relaxes group-size constraints

 

Cons:

- Requires development time

- Players may still prefer to disband the group rather than do a run with a reduced chance of quality gear

- How would dynamic scaling work if players join/leave mid-instance? Would everyone have to leave and enter again to re-scale it, or is it fixed?

 

I wish people would stop playing the victim. You're not being punished.

 

Johnny likes the looks of the PVP gear, but doesn't like to PVP. Is he being punished by not getting the PVP if he chooses not to PVP?

 

Playing the game or even paying the subscription does not entitle you to everything in that is currently, that ever was or that ever will be in the game. Playing the game does not entitle you to see all the content.

 

Playing the game or paying the subscription entitles you too the OPPORTUNITY to see all the content. In order to see some of the content, though, sometimes you must find a group or PUG.

[JamieKirby]

Well, i personally think that when it comes to group content, there should be solo versions of it with scaled down rewards and everything that you can only do once per character, like a normal quest, this is during the leveling phase of the character of course.

 

For exmaple, the first flashpoint we ever do, The Esseles and Black Talon are perfect examples, it would be cool to finally be able to see the story without getting players in the group crying about someone not skipping it, even though i say i haven't seen it yet, 99% of them tend to say and i qoute: "i don't give a f**k, skip it or get kicked!".

 

I mean, i can understand that they are likely doing the same flashpoint over and over and over again for some odd reason, this is why my suggestion makes sense for this very reason, i mean it would be awesome to be sent to the flashpoints, but i get a scaled down version, just like the scenarios that World of Warcraft has now, that makes it feel like i am actually doing something...you know what i mean?

[theUndead]

I swear people don't understand that this is a MMO not a single player game. In response to the OP, I like your idea for flashpoints but that is it. I don't want Ops changed at all. I am a raider not so hardcore anymore, but a raider non the less and the devs do NOT need to be spending precious time re scaling existing content just for the solo player to experience it.

 

My counter proposal is to create stand alone content that is of raid difficulty for solo people. It can be the form of a quest line or multiple queslines. I'd even go so far as to say, let it be with multiple companions. But no I do not support the changing of Operations in the slightest.

[Torvai]

What this means for the player-base:

It means soloing or undermanning content will become even easier. What the eff?

12 players for S&V 16man HM? Go for it, accept the challenge. It's easily doable. Heck, 8m SM DP was 3 manned a while ago. I cleared S&V 8m HM last week with 4 of my guildis, for thrasher we had only 4 people because of a dc at pull.

And you want to make it even easier?

[JamieKirby]

I swear people don't understand that this is a MMO not a single player game. In response to the OP, I like your idea for flashpoints but that is it. I don't want Ops changed at all. I am a raider not so hardcore anymore, but a raider non the less and the devs do NOT need to be spending precious time re scaling existing content just for the solo player to experience it.

 

My counter proposal is to create stand alone content that is of raid difficulty for solo people. It can be the form of a quest line or multiple queslines. I'd even go so far as to say, let it be with multiple companions. But no I do not support the changing of Operations in the slightest.

 

Well, then i guess they need to remove all form of stories from group content, because i have yet to see any of it due to players ************ and crying for me to skip the best part of swtor or get kicked....thats why i suggest these flashpoints scale to player numbers....this is non-hard modes i am talking about....not any of that Hard modes or nightmare stuff.

 

I personally just want to experience the story without the pressure of joining a group and being virtually bullied to skip all the conversations.

Edited November 21, 2014 by JamieKirby

[theUndead]

Well, then i guess they need to remove all form of stories from group content, because i have yet to see any of it due to players ************ and crying for me to skip the best part of swtor or get kicked....thats why i suggest these flashpoints scale to player numbers....this is non-hard modes i am talking about....not any of that Hard modes or nightmare stuff.

 

I personally just want to experience the story without the pressure of joining a group and being virtually bullied to skip all the conversations.

 

Are you freaking dense? I said I AGREE with the OP about flashpoints, but I seriously do not believe you actively get bullied for not skipping. You are not obligated to skip anything and if they give you grief vote and ignore. I've also said this before, but operation stories are not much so it's not like you missing out on anything.

 

You know something else? In many threads I've seen you attack any and all group content because you apparently have an issue with an mmo having group exclusive content. So I'm asking you, what's your deal exactly with groups?

[JamieKirby]

Are you freaking dense? I said I AGREE with the OP about flashpoints, but I seriously do not believe you actively get bullied for not skipping. You are not obligated to skip anything and if they give you grief vote and ignore. I've also said this before, but operation stories are not much so it's not like you missing out on anything.

 

You know something else? In many threads I've seen you attack any and all group content because you apparently have an issue with an mmo having group exclusive content. So I'm asking you, what's your deal exactly with groups?

 

I am not against group content, i am against story oriented content being group only, like the Forged Alliances for example....group only, so i really never got a chance to see it fully.

 

I believe when it comes to putting someone on ignore, you get removed from the group or something, since when you put them on ignore, you never, EVER encounter them again via the group finder...unless i am wrong.

 

I don't want to be able to do all the endgame stuff on my own and get the best gear, that should be reserved for grouping, i just find story more interesting and i would want the story content to be completeable on my own at the level of the content in question, not wait until max level and do it then...if you know what i mean.

[MagikFingerz]

IMO the strong points of the OP's suggestion is that it would eliminate what many consider being the most tedious part of FPs/Ops; getting those last few players in the group so they can start the run or replacing that one guy who just had to leave or DC'ed in the middle of the run. These are things that prevent me from running group content, mostly when it comes to ops due to it being 8 or 16 players required, because it takes so much unnecessary time. A 30 min run can easily go well over an hour if it's not in the middle of the day and the above scenarios take place.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Heal-To-Full]

They should make flashpoint in box click box so people have no group for flashpoint make box click. Then if another people click box, put flashpoint in box, people have no group put people in box, then when enough people, put box in group, put group in flashpoint, and people will be flashpoint after box is click. Edited November 22, 2014 by Heal-To-Full

[Mubrak]

They should make flashpoint in box click box so people have no group for flashpoint make box click. Then if another people click box, put flashpoint in box, people have no group put people in box, then when enough people, put box in group, put group in flashpoint, and people will be flashpoint after box is click.

 

But would the light sword box be put in the click box when the click flashpoint is back and the sword box light is out?

Edited November 22, 2014 by Mubrak