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Why don't PvP Guilds que Team Ranked?


Kenjigreat

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in my very limited experience (and this actually applies to when I was on a fairly competitive 8v8 team), every guild has their "A team." and when one player is missing, all you see in global chat or in the forums is "our main tank can't queue that day" or "our main healer can't queue that day" or "so and so can't play at that time." I don't doubt these reasons, but the upshot is that guilds who take their pvp seriously won't go into a match without their best team (unless they know they'll be facing inferior competition).

 

on top of this, you have what L-Randle said about once a pecking order is established, nobody's going to line-up just to be fodder for a team that has already proven that they'll win every time.

 

related to that fact is my more personal reason against it: why would I face the exact same team in the exact same comp who is clearly better than me every night, 5x a week? I don't mind losing, but there's a difference between losing and just feeding someone else's team wins while killing my own rating. I don't feel it's an accurate reflection of my skill to be 900 rating when all I do is play and lose against the same 1 or 2 teams, which happen to be the best 1% of pvpers on the server.

 

at the end of the day though...

 

meh

 

 

This post sums up why cross server would never solve the issues with PvP in this particular game. Ever.

 

Not ever.

 

 

Don't delude yourselves.

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I'm in one Guild that has a legit Tank, and he doesn't log on anymore.

 

So why do we not queue Team Ranked? No Tank.

 

 

See.

 

 

 

Players don't want to play and have fun. They want to figure out the best specs and combinations and run them into the ground, to the point that you think you've gimped yourself if you queue otherwise.

 

Such is not the case, but it was the attitude in 8v8 and it is the attitude now. Nothing will change it.

 

 

The ranked community essentially:

 

  • Built a castle
  • Dug a moat
  • Set the moat on fire
  • Destroyed the drawbridge

 

and said, "HAHA you can't come". Then they got angry because they were lonely and starving.

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This post sums up why cross server would never solve the issues with PvP in this particular game. Ever.

 

Not ever.

 

 

Don't delude yourselves.

 

This is sadly true. No matter how much you inflate the PvP population, good teams will not want to queue against great ones. And that is the root of the issue. And although I like the idea of 8v8 better than arenas, am I the only one in this thread that remembers the lengths you had to go to in avoiding stalemates (and that was before field respec really fubarred ranked).

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This is sadly true. No matter how much you inflate the PvP population, good teams will not want to queue against great ones. And that is the root of the issue. And although I like the idea of 8v8 better than arenas, am I the only one in this thread that remembers the lengths you had to go to in avoiding stalemates (and that was before field respec really fubarred ranked).

 

There were very few teams who played to win instead of playing to not lose. Field Respec was sad and pathetic, and further alienated any potential players from having anything to do with ranked. Good Riddance to it.

Edited by maverickmatt
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There were very few teams who played to win instead of playing to not lose. Field Respec was sad and pathetic, and further alienated any potential players from having anything to do with ranked. Good Riddance to it.

 

Agreed. My guild ran damage geared tanks back in the first ranked preseason. We won far more than we lost, but that gearing choice largely eliminated stalemates. We either leveraged our damage edge into a quick kill or two, or the lack of tankiness on our tanks killed us. By midway through 1.3 almost all the other "PvP" oriented guilds on our server would stop queuing if they new our A-team was on. They accused us of using "cheap" tactics (not gearing our tanks as tanks), and refused to fight us.

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Agreed. My guild ran damage geared tanks back in the first ranked preseason. We won far more than we lost, but that gearing choice largely eliminated stalemates. We either leveraged our damage edge into a quick kill or two, or the lack of tankiness on our tanks killed us. By midway through 1.3 almost all the other "PvP" oriented guilds on our server would stop queuing if they new our A-team was on. They accused us of using "cheap" tactics (not gearing our tanks as tanks), and refused to fight us.

 

Indeed. You should bet the farm, go all in, or whatever other analogy you like.

 

One thing that sticks out to me is the A and B team designations. I firmly believe it is plug and play, and exceptional players will find a way to work it out. It just happens that it's out of their comfort EZ ZONE and completely defies the norm of this game (probably others too). My point is that if a comp or a spec is making you win, instead of your actual ability to play...

 

Anyway, no offense intended. Just pointing out a player-driven source of the stagnation everyone complains about.

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Players don't want to play and have fun. They want to figure out the best specs and combinations and run them into the ground, to the point that you think you've gimped yourself if you queue otherwise.

 

You are gimping yourself if you queue otherwise. Maybe not fotm specs or combos, but you certainly need a solid Tank and Healer. Without one of either you may as well just shoot yourself in Group Ranked.

Edited by DarthOvertone
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You are gimping yourself if you queue otherwise. Maybe not fotm specs or combos, but you certainly need a solid Tank and Healer. Without one of either you may as well just shoot yourself in Group Ranked.

One case amoung many more why BW needs to have match handicaps.

 

Tell me D.O. If you had yourself and three guildies worth play in team rank, but comp issues, if there was code that boosted your power based on the matchup to account form no healer/tank, would you guys queue?

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Indeed. You should bet the farm, go all in, or whatever other analogy you like.

 

One thing that sticks out to me is the A and B team designations. I firmly believe it is plug and play, and exceptional players will find a way to work it out. It just happens that it's out of their comfort EZ ZONE and completely defies the norm of this game (probably others too). My point is that if a comp or a spec is making you win, instead of your actual ability to play...

 

Anyway, no offense intended. Just pointing out a player-driven source of the stagnation everyone complains about.

 

Our A-team was our A-team because we all had played together enough to know what we were doing without talking. The class comp was much less important (several of our A-team would vary what they played). Just having people playing together who instinctively new what each other were doing was the advantage.

 

As you said though, the problem is human nature, or at least a commonly seen aspect of it these days. People don't want to deal with very hard. Any experience in a game that involves a lot of losing will be avoided.

Edited by Vodrin
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One case amoung many more why BW needs to have match handicaps.

 

Tell me D.O. If you had yourself and three guildies worth play in team rank, but comp issues, if there was code that boosted your power based on the matchup to account form no healer/tank, would you guys queue?

 

Honestly, I don't care about a power boost. I would personally be happy just to roll with a competent min/max Obroan Tank who wants to run Group Ranked. Open invitation. I'm on The Bastion (see sig for toons), please hit me up if anybody has a Pub and would like to Tank in Ranked. We will definitely run. H*ll, we will run tonight!

 

I tried to get around the problem in Season Two by farming Tank gear myself. I farmed a set of min/maxed Obroan Tank gear that I can swap between my BH/VG . But then everyone b*tched about it not being Brutalizer and that I could be tunneled too easy so they didn't want to queue...which is true tbh. lol

Edited by DarthOvertone
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One case amoung many more why BW needs to have match handicaps.

 

Tell me D.O. If you had yourself and three guildies worth play in team rank, but comp issues, if there was code that boosted your power based on the matchup to account form no healer/tank, would you guys queue?

 

This kind of thing is a pretty decent idea, but I still think we will be faced with the same problem we have now. There are simply not enough players with the intestinal fortitude to take the beating they get when facing one of the best teams and still keep queuing.

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The teams that keep losing just quit doing ranked.

 

As long as regs is there for the losers to run back to there will never be a ranked scene.

 

Hold up, Rambo.

 

 

Nobody "runs" back to regs. The most fun to be had in PvP for my money is winning with a group of undergeared and uncoordinated players.

 

It's simply more fun than, "Yup. CC healer. K. Swap to DPS. Mhm. Good. Now back to healer. CC Tank" etc..

 

That you call ranked arenas a skilled area is laughable at best. It's simply who can mash the right buttons faster, and it's quite mindless.

Edited by maverickmatt
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If arenas were fun...

And if the seasons were shorter..

And if there was some form of postseason (perhaps opening the PTS and inviting the top teams from all servers for a playoff bracket or something)

 

 

You might see an increase.

 

 

But then again..

 

If worms had machine guns, birds wouldn't **** with them.

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This post sums up why cross server would never solve the issues with PvP in this particular game. Ever.

 

Not ever.

 

 

Don't delude yourselves.

 

I actually think soloQ is a brilliant counter to this, and if BW gave half a damn about it, the format could really flourish. key features:

  • you don't play on or against the same teams and comps every time, even if there's only 8 ppl in queue

 

key deterrent:

  • bad support roles can often make or break a match (heal/tank), so you need at least two relatively equal healers on or a LOT of healers/tanks so that it's not a 50:50 "healer roulette." dps can be carried more readily.
  • players don't quite understand that they're going to lose matches to ppl that they're individually better than but that's fine. play more matches. you'll go against those bads too.
  • for some retarded reason, solo ranking and grp rating are treated the same. that's just idiotic. you're going to lose more, as a great player, in a random team. and you're going to win more, as a terrible player for the same reason. so the ratings are clearly not equivalent (1200 in yolo isn't 1200 in grp).
  • solo caters to a couple classes more than others -- ranged have a really tough time in yolo (merc and sniper) cuz of the lack of tanks/heals
  • there's no gate to entry, and one really unprepared person can tank an entire team. you don't get to pick your team, so it's incredibly frustrating.
  • it's easily trolled by match throwers
  • it's easy to q-synch on the less popular faction. (inter-faction teams!)

 

the stuff in yellow is largely addressable if BW cared enough to do even the slightest bit of extra work on the format, but from what I can tell, they actually want it to be like regs where anyone can join, either to troll or just be ungeared and unprepared. the troll thing can't be eliminated, but it can be curtailed by a gateway and more aggressive action when evidence of match-throwing is provided.

 

win-trading is an issue for both grp and soloQ formats, so I don't even include it on the list. but I will say it's easier to trade in grp than solo ;)

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I know many guilds that consider themselves PvP guilds on Harbinger.

 

And before anyone ask , My personal guild is not a PvP guild because all I do is Yolo que when I get bored.

 

The question I would like to pose is for people in PvP guilds that do not actively do team ranked.

 

I am sure everyone here knows that the number of teams queing for team ranked has been on sharp decline.

 

Do people just not like arenas?

 

Can't get 4 people in guild with the right composition?

 

Only play for fun?

 

Tanks/Healers in your guild suck?

 

I am just curious.

 

Some do... But a lot don't... I can only assume they are either bored from stomping bad teams or the one I like the best... They don't want to "wreck" the impression they are a "good" pvp guild by getting smashed in ranked... I find a lot of people in the so called pvp guilds aren't that good even in reg pug... They only seem to "appear" good when they are premade in regs and run in a group on voice chat ganking/death matching 4v1 people... They also don't communicate with the rest of the team... I've noticed when they play by themselves they don't know tactics or how to communicate... Will usually rage quit if they think the other team is better than them... And that is after abusing everyone on the team... We usually win after they leave... lol

In saying that, there are some fantastic pvpers in those guilds... And they mainly keep the "impression" alive that the guild is elite

Then there are the few elite guilds... With elite players... You know who they are because they know tactics, work as a team and are more interested in winning then death matching and abusing people... They will also give people pointers on how to improve... Unfortunately there are only a few of them... I think you will find they are the ones that play ranked the most and because there are only a few in that elite bracket... The pops are long

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[*]for some retarded reason, solo ranking and grp rating are treated the same. that's just idiotic. you're going to lose more, as a great player, in a random team. and you're going to win more, as a terrible player for the same reason. so the ratings are clearly not equivalent (1200 in yolo isn't 1200 in grp).

 

And also if they made better season rewards for group ranked rating vs a solo rating... Then more people would be inclined to do grouped which would hopefully fix the pop times on grouped

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One case amoung many more why BW needs to have match handicaps.

 

If matches were handicapped such that one side always had at least a 33% chance of winning I think more people would queue.

 

Here is the most inspiring example of a handicap match: The Japanese Pro Honinbo vs the Amateur Honinbo. The amateur would stand next to no chance in an even match but the handicap is adjusted each match (year).

 

I consider the 1989 match an anomaly. Cho was really strong at the time be he has always been known as an eccentric and may have chosen to challenge himself by playing the equivalent of an 4 DPS operative team strategy.

 

SWTOR, like chess, is harder to handicap than Go but given the wide disparity between derps like myself and top 20 players I think we could do quite well even with XvY matches. You could also handicap with bolster

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And also if they made better season rewards for group ranked rating vs a solo rating... Then more people would be inclined to do grouped which would hopefully fix the pop times on grouped

 

no. they would not. you would get the same influx of PvEers for about a week. they would realize that they're completely outclassed (and can't even be carried by random good players on their team) and have no shot at the rewards, so they'd stop Qing.

 

meanwhile, nobody else is going to Q to feed easy wins to the top 1 or 2 teams (per server) while simultaneously killing their own rating with each loss. grp queue is just not tenable at this point without a major balancing change. and the really good teams are going to go nuts if this happens, because they'd be handicapped for being good, which makes no sense in a format designed to rank teams in a hierarchy of skill.

 

I don't think it's possible to entice players who aren't the absolute top tier of their respective servers to queue ranked en mass, and that's the only thing that can save the format, imo. soloQ suffers a similar population problem, btw. it's just that there's a build-in "handicap" that allows a very small population to produce close matches as opposed to the continual roflstomps in grp with a small population.

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